Instructors - raise your game!

[shower of sparks]

I have been aware of an awful lack of meaningful employment for Flight Instructors during the past few years, and have struggled to make ends meet myself. I have been disgusted at the willingness of apparently 'reputable' flying schools to offer insulting payment for what is a highly skilled and demanding job.

I am grateful to WWW for allowing my post to remain and would like to make it clear that the Cambridge Aero Club prides itself above all else in the quality of it's instruction, and working conditions for it's Instructors. We pay among the best wages for both part-time and full-time staff, and furthermore we do not have to make a large profit to survive as we are owned by Marshall Aerospace of Cambridge.

Now, with so few meaningful employment opportunities available for new or experienced Instructors I have been amazed and frankly alarmed at the number of candidates turning up for interviews who don't dress reasonably smartly, find out anything about the airfield they will be operating out of, do any homework regarding the club itself, or it's owners, bring their log books, their licenses, their Instructor notes..... the list goes on. I have numerous phone calls from people dying to get their first 'proper' or full-time Instructing job who when asked can't make themselves available for an interview for a week because they are going away to see friends or something.

This is a highly revered and professional industry for which you have trained hard to be a part of. You are providing highly specialised training to people who are paying a lot of money and who expect to get something in return. When I qualified as an Instructor I would have gone to almost any lengths to secure that illusive first job, and indeed I know many others who have done. Maybe my recent experience is a sad reflection of attitudes toward Instructing as a whole in a climate that seems to be awash with diminishing standards and increasing trivia...
:(

Have Instructors reached a level of such cynicism that they won't even try hard to get a job when one exists? Is the level of apathy in the business such that it is easier to moan about it rather than make yourself attractive to a potential employer? Come on people, now more than ever I would be expecting to see well informed and enthusiastic pilots/Instructors turning up at interviews, not people making the minimum effort expecting a job to land in their laps...

I know that there are many very dedicated and hard working Instructors and pilots out there, but I have no doubt that there is a growing group of us that seem to have just 'given up' and forgotten why we started - I think THAT is very sad indeed.

There are still some good jobs out there but they are more difficult to find now, so raise your game a little and give yourself the edge - it's still worth it :ok:

Best wishes,

SOS

[BEagle]

Well said!

I've had anecdotal evidence from another school of would-be instructors turning up and saying that they were 'scared of teaching landings', would you believe!

With the downturn in PPL training, some FTOs seem to have been rather keener to turn out FI(R)s for commercial reasons than for the good of the industry. But others have upheld their high standards - the result being that the low-hour wannabe seeking only a method to fuel his hours-building aspirations goes to the 'easy touch' school which isn't so fussy about quality, perhaps.

Personally I think that the selection of prospective FIs should be more thorough and that their FI Skill Tests should be conducted by an independent FIE nominated for the task by the CAA. Rather than at a Bill & Ben FTO where Bill teaches one FI applicant, Ben teaches another and they swap over for the Skill Tests?

There aren't many FI jobs right now, hence industry is being more selective. So perhaps the law of the jungle rather than sound selection techniques will weed out the weaker FI(R)s who come knocking on the door?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Still having problems Luke?

I will agree that people need to make themselves available, but I think there is a sense of apathy in the industry in general. Of the 15 instructors at my school, only 5 are what I would call dedicated. The chaps who don't fall into this category have all trained in the last 2 years and are only using it as a stepping stone.

With the airline market so stagnant I have seen a large number of 'new' instuctors ,and whilst this is a generalisation, they have all been guilty of a large dose of apathy towards the job. Treating it as a last resort as you will and seem to actually resent it.

I recently flew with some of the aforesaid instructors students recently and I was amazed at the lack of notes and the fact they were on ex 12,13 after just 6 hrs! At the end of the flight infront of the whole school, the student said "Wow, I really enjoyed that, you made me do some work. XYZ normally just sits there."

I was gob smacked, I hadn't done anything different to what I would expect every lesson to consist of.
This set alarms ringing and we checked all students files and found the same issue was occuring with ALL our new instructors.

Serious talking tos were initiated and hopefully things have changed, but I'm not convinced yet.

I started instructing because of the airline market, but have tried to treat it with the same zeal I would a 'proper' job. Unfortunately, I think I may be in a minority.

Don't treat all instructors like yourself SoS, but do give people a chance, sometimes it isn't possible to just drop everything and head down the A14. Be clear in what you require of them, many will never have been through an interview for a flying job and try to be realistic in what you ask for/expect. A contrived scenario in an unfamiliar a/c, airfield and under what can be described as a test can throw even the most experienced chaps off let alone newly minted FI(R).

I agree with BEags on the point about an FIE. Being an instructor does not qualify you as an examiner, and the skills are quite different, especially when judging your peers. Something I found out to my obvious cost.....

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its sad when anyone applies for any professional position and does not prepare nor take it with a professional level of seriousness.

I think there are broadly two categories of new PPL instructor.

The first group always planned on becoming an FI. They knew a couple of instructors before they started out, were aware of pay and conditions. They aspired to the job and understood positions to be scarce and valuable. They may very well be headed for the airline in the end but are aware that a couple of thousand GA hours and some networking is their future. They attack the present with gusto because they are making progress as planned towards that glittering prize.

The second group never planned on becoming an FI. They didn't know any instructors before they started out. They are amazed by the poor pay and conditions. They aspire only to an airline job and being an FI is a necessary evil. They resent having to come to work to fly crappy aeroplanes with rubbish students for peanuts. There seems no hope of escaping it and they are jealous of someone they heard of who got a job with Ryanair. They dislike their work, take little pride in it and the misery of not being in an airline makes them miserable.

Now. I know its not as clear cut as two groups. I know that you can start in the former and gravitate towards the latter over time.

But generally thats the why I found things when I was a full time instructor.

Looking back I know I was in the former camp and I am now cosily in the RHS. I recall colleagues from the latter group and not one ever made it.

Carpe Diem - seems to be the only difference.

Cheers

WWW

[FlyingForFun]

So WWW - how do you propose that SoS and others can identify between the two at interview time, so as to only hire the first group?

(Sadly, my experiences as a student, and then as a regular around my flying club, don't match yours. I've seen plenty of people in group two who have gone on to airline work, and also a couple of people in group one who seemed destined to be flying instructors forever, and will gradually start gravitating towards group two because they can't afford to continue living on that salary for more than a couple of years.)

FFF
--------------

[Say again s l o w l y]

FFF it is a difficult task, but it is by no means impossible. How enthusiastic and knowledgeable is a person about GA? Did that person do a full time integrated course? Did they ever do a PPL? How long after they completed their IR did they do their FI rating? Do they know the local airfields? Have they ever helped out at a local club?

None of these will ever give you an exact answer, but they do allow you to get a picture of how comfortable that person is around light a/c.
The best way of telling however, is to have them meet a few students on a busy day and see how they get along with them. I have seen a few seemingly good FI's not cope very well when subjected to an average Q and A session from students. It can really show if somebody is willing to put up lots of daft questions and whether they actually want to be there or are just doing out of necessity.

[Snigs]

I'm quite shocked at this, are there really people out there like that?

In the fullness of time I'd like to fly for an airline, but at the moment I'm an FI. I love it. I get a thrill when ever I teach something and the student suddenly clicks and it works like clockwork.

What is a professional? Someone who applies the same attitude to every job they do.

I'm teaching at the club where I did my PPL, and the current CFI (and owner) is the instructor who taught me. My approach to flying, teaching flying and my "other" job has always been the same, professional, fortunately he recogised that and I walked into an instructing job.

Attitude in the aircraft is key, but the attitude of a prospective employee is also key.

Listen well to shower of sparks, and learn.

[Whirlybird]

WWW,

Looking back I know I was in the former camp and I am now cosily in the RHS. I recall colleagues from the latter group and not one ever made it.


Looking back to when I was a PPL student, my experiences were exactly the same. I used to get annoyed - the good instructors got jobs quickly and left; the bad ones stayed around. Looking at it as a student it seemed thoroughly unfair! When would I get a good instructor who stayed? I finally did...he got a job the day I finished my course.

He taught me a lot more than how to fly. He taught me, by example as much as anything else, to do my best at EVERYTHING I did, and never to accept second best in myself. A useful lesson.

And even taking it from a selfish point of view, why not? So you're an instructor who doesn't want to do the job, who longs for that airline job, who doesn't even like students. You still have to be there, to do the instructing. It takes no longer, nor is it harder, to do a job well than to do it badly. A miserable job is far less unpleasant when you're putting effort into it than when you're counting the hours. And who knows, being well thought of migh stand you in good stead - that next student might have contacts in the airlines, or know someone who knows someone who...

How can you tell if you're recruiting? I think you can. A person's basic attitude shows in everything that they do. Someone who does their best at everything, who tries to be a professional, WILL dress appropriately, turn up when asked or explain very clearly why they can't etc. That person will try to be a good instructor - and will be, even if it's not what they want to do. The one who doesn't will never be any good at anything, because they'll always stop trying when the going gets tough.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its hard acting as if you are on 30 grand a year when in reality you're on less than 10. That - in a nutshell - is the difference.

Anecdotal evidence received today from an FI Examiner suggest that this winter there is a veritable tidal wave new FI's signing up for the course.

I am starting to think that the more sensible course would be to pay double and self fund a Shed or 748 or ATR course and try to get into night freighting instead.

An FI course will end up costing you £5k with accom - it now takes 6 weeks in winter easily. For less than twice that you could self fund a cheap TP rating.

Things have started to move again in the recruitment market. There are very few people left with >1000hrs commercial experience who haven't got an interview booked for the coming months...

Look at the earning ratios...

Cheers

WWW

[Whirlybird]

Its hard acting as if you are on 30 grand a year when in reality you're on less than 10. That - in a nutshell - is the difference.


WWW,

I don't see that. What are you getting at?

Of course flying instructors should be paid more; no-one here would query that. But are you saying that your hour-building FI goes out to a lesson thinking: "Well, I'm only making 10 quid for this, so I won't really bother; I'll fly but I'll just look out of the window and snap at Bloggs occasionally and count the minutes till I can go look at that mag and check out the latest airline vacancies. On the other hand, if I was getting £40 an hour plus a retainer, I'd spend the hour trying to work out why Bloggs is REALLY having such problems with landing and hasn't gone solo yet".

That makes no sense, WWW. Please explain yourself!

[StudentInDebt]

Hang on a minute. Whilst there are good schools out there who treat their employees with the respect they deserve, there are many who enforce appaulling terms and conditions of employment.

When I was looking for work I responded to an advert in an industry periodical and was invited to have an informal look around the school that day. I duly dressed up and drove up the A1 complete with associated bits of paper. I was met by a bloke in a tatty pullover who introduced himself as the co-owner of the school and engineer. He proceded to show me around while effectively making me a job offer.

Whilst the salary was industry standard, the terms and conditions were not. Since I lived more than 25 minutes from the school I would be expected to rent a room in a property he provided for a sum that equalled my retainer. As the school was open from 0veryearly00 till sunset I would be booked to fly every hour at least 5 days a week and normally 6 in the summer. In the event I had no flying duties I would have to fill my time with various tasks which included (by no means exhaustive) mowing the grass runway and taxyways using a tractor, maintaining the dilapidated clubhouse and hangar to include roofing, brickwork, etc, pruning of trees and chopping logs for firewood, and so on. Asking to have a chat with the CFI brought a rather nasty response about listening to him rather than the CFI because he was the boss. He then left me in the care of a very nice instuctor with 30 minutes to accept his offer as he had "guys coming in later who would take my arm off to work here".

Said instructor was extremely miserable as amongst other things he was forcebly seperated from his wife and kids by the schools' travel policy. He also passed on several pearls of information that resulted in me rejecting the job offer.

I felt rather let down, none of the schools I had flown with during my training treated their instructors in such a cavalier, mill owner fashion. I've heard of schools that insist that an prospective instructor pay for a checkout but give no notice that it will be taking place depriving them of an opportunity to do well.

It is possible to give PPL FIs decent pay and conditions - my former employer managed do so to me for 3 years and most of us aren't afraid to muck in and help out if needed. It is also possible to deal with applicants in a professional manner and formally invite them to interviews and assessments. If you want these people to fly for your organisation professionally, look and conduct yourselves professionally as well.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

SID - I think I know which school you looked at and I did the same in 1999 and turned them down. I am all for mucking in and not being a jobsworth but the level of dedication they demanded was demeaning and largely counter productive.

Whirly - Its hard acting as if you are on 30 grand a year when in reality you're on less than 10. That - in a nutshell - is the difference.

Well really I meant just what I said.


But are you saying that your hour-building FI goes out to a lesson thinking: "Well, I'm only making 10 quid for this, so I won't really bother; I'll fly but I'll just look out of the window and snap at Bloggs occasionally and count the minutes till I can go look at that mag and check out the latest airline vacancies.

No I am not saying this should happen. What I am saying is that people make a cerebral contract with their job based on a simple cost/reward basis.

Which means you don't mind earning £4hr if all you have to do is stack shelves - or - means you'll work 18hr high pressure days if you are on a 100k bonus.

The ideal situation in GA PPL instruction would see instructors on slightly above average wage of about £30k. This would be enough for them to feel professionaly valued, to resist pressure to fly in poor conditions, to do after hours work to improve their knowledge and to not clock watch whilst in the air.

Unfortunately at often less than 10k you are not in a financial nor psychological position to do so.

Which is what I meant when I say its hard to act as if you are on 30k when you are on less than 10k.

Cheers

WWW

[IO540]

WWW

Where would the 30k come from?

This is a completely straight question, not intended to make a point.

Unless I am missing something big, it could only come from students, and where are they going to come from in the required numbers?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Where would the 30k come from

At least one school, not a million miles away from the guy who started this thread, used to be run as ancilliary to a larger aerospace business, and seemd to be at least partly there to give the test pilots more time in the air and less at their desks.

In those days the typical instructor was a white haired test pilot who'd trained at the Empire Test Pilot School - he'd typically spend not very many hours a week flying Hercs around with both fans on one wing switched off, say; more hours a week than he'd like on paperwork; and get to fly students around in 152s for relaxation. It probably helped that the boss had a personal mission to promote flying and wasn't trying to make vast amounts of money from the school.

Dunno if the business model has changed in recent years, but there are fewer white haired instructors around - except at weekends, when some of the retired guys come in to do a bit of instructing for fun.

[I have to say that as a student the idea that the guy teaching you had decades of experience of flying all sorts of aircraft in dodgy states of design or repair, and had lived through it, had a certain attraction compared to the young lads just trying to get through the hours until their first "real" job.]

[StudentInDebt]

WWW

I must say that when I considered that a 20 minute ferry at 1900 in the middle of a classic winter warm front passage was only going to gross £3 before tax, I found the decision to stay on the ground much easier :D

I did find telling the ops staff that I wouldn't be flying my Ex6 detail because the visiblilty was 3k extremely tiresome though.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh you'll never see £30k in PPL land - I never suggested it was possible. I was illustrating a point about motivation.

Cheers

WWW

[Whirlybird]

What I am saying is that people make a cerebral contract with their job based on a simple cost/reward basis.


If that is really happening, I find it extremely worrying. Let's look at a few other occupations...

If you are in a road traffic accident in the middle of the night, you will be taken to Accident and Emergency at the hospital. The only doctor there will be a junior one, working very long hours on very poor pay, putting up with it in the hope of something better in the future. Does he/she say: Jeez, it's 3am, and this guy's in a mess, but wait a minute, I'm not making much for treating him and I'm bloody tired, so I won't try too hard".

If you make it to the ward, does the overworked, underpaid nurse say: "Aww, leave this one alone; he's a nuisance, and we're not earning enough to bother".

Does your newly qualified and poorly paid teacher say: "Forget teaching these kids properly; I wanna be a head teacher and do something interesting, and more expecially, earn more. I won't bother until I do".

Now, you may say all these people earn a bit more than flying instructors - and they possibly do. But they still all earn below average wages, work hard in often dangerous conditions (teachers, doctors, and nurses get attacked not infrequently), and often have very anti-social hours. But they do their best because they want the job, in the hope of something better, or because they're the type of people who do their jobs properly regardless of the pay - or leave if they don't like it.

WWW, if I were a flying school owner, I wouldn't employ the type of people you're talking about to clean my aircraft, never mind fly them!!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Everyone makes a cerebral contract about their work.

The analogy with a Doctor does not hold water. With a dying person on your hands and following 6 years training for this day then this weeks pay packet is not really that prominent in your motivation.

Nurses are not angels. They often get hacked off with patients, have a bad day and think sod 'em and sod the job. Well, the ones I know admit that after a few glasses of wine and I don't blame them one bit.

Lazy hacked off teachers totally jaded with the profession who came into it because their plans to do something else didn't quite work out? Yep - tens of thousands of them about - all starting on £16k and rapidly above £20k with generous leave and a job for life.

How many teachers get killed at work? I don't know but I got my PPL instructors job by filling the shoes of someone who flew into a mountain the fortnight before. I can recall at least three other instructors who ended up dead at work since then.

Your average instructor is making maybe £9k a year, his job is in jeopardy every winter and there simply are no benefits.

The comparison is not with doctors, nurses or teachers who all enjoy a highly unionised public sector job for life career.

It is with sweat shop workers and contract factory workers and black marker labourers.

Yet we expect the highest standards from our Instructors. Which is something that can only be maintained by the devout enthusiast (rare), the part timer or the person who is happy with this temporary arrangement on his way to somewhere more financially rewarding. Not neccessarily the airlines - commercial instructing pays a just-about-living wage.

PPL's have always benefitted from this reality. There is no way in hell I would have given up a decent job to teach joe average a cheap PPL if I didn't know it was just a period to endure (financially) on the way to something better. In the meantime joe average is effectively getting subsidised tuition. Subsidised by my career ambitions and the pay/conditions/status of my future employer(s).

Cheers

WWW

[Whirlybird]

The analogy with a Doctor does not hold water. With a dying person on your hands and following 6 years training for this day then this weeks pay packet is not really that prominent in your motivation.

Apart from the fact an instructor's student isn't dying, why doesn't it hold water? The instructor has trained long and hard for this day too. And he isn't usually facing a difficult situation alone, at 3am, after a twenty-four hour shift and not enough sleep for many months, as junior doctors frequently do.

Nurses are not angels. They often get hacked off with patients, have a bad day and think sod 'em and sod the job. Well, the ones I know admit that after a few glasses of wine and I don't blame them one bit.


Everyone gets fed up and says sod the job, no matter what they're doing. That was not your point, or mine. There is a great difference between getting humanly fed up, and not doing the job to the best of your ability purely because you resent the low pay cheque. ESPECIALLY WHEN THAT JOB AFFECTS OTHER PEOPLE!!!!!

How many teachers get killed at work?

I personally know two teachers who were attacked by pupils, one with scissors and the other with some other potentially lethal weapon. The first was off work for months as a result. The second left the profession. Both were incredibly traumatised. Don't you think it's worse to have someone genuinely trying to kill you than inadvertantly, as is generally the case with PPL students? And I have it on good authority that in inner cities at least, this sort of thing is not rare.

I got my PPL instructors job by filling the shoes of someone who flew into a mountain the fortnight before. I can recall at least three other instructors who ended up dead at work since then.


WWW, I knew the guy who flew into the mountain. He wasn't instructing; he was off on a jolly AFTER doing a check-out with an out-of-club-currency PPL (also someone I knew). No-one knew why they decided to head for the hills, or who was flying at the time, and no-one ever will. So it's an irrelevant example. Flying is potentially dangerous and always will be; we all know that.

It is with sweat shop workers and contract factory workers and black marker labourers.

No, it isn't, because they're not dealing with people. It should maybe be with care workers and other low paid auxiliary staff who deal with the public. And they work damned hard for very little pay. I know; I spent several months working in a home for disabled people once, surrounded by dedicated people who worked long hours and risked at least bad backs from lifting people, and often worse. Sure, they got pissed off. Sometimes they left. But while they were there they did their best.

I'm not in any way arguing that instructors shouldn't be paid more; OF COURSE THEY SHOULD!!!!!!!!! What I'm arguing about is your statement that people work well or badly depending on what they're paid. If you want the job, do it! if you don't, leave! If you think it might lead to something better, stick it out, but still do it properly. As you said in one of your early posts on here, that's what you did, and it got you a right hand seat. So why are you backing up the lazy sods who should be kicked out of the industry?

[Ludwig]

WWW I think comparing the hours building instructor , who only instructs because the airlines are not banging on their door, to either doctors or sweat shop workers is to miss the point. You are obviously clear in your views that the poor suffering instructors are subsidising the PPL training of others. This throws up two issues:

First, presumably those instructors who themselves had a PPL in a past life were similarly subsidised, if that is the correct interpretation and;

Second, surely it is arguable that it is the PPL who is subsiding the instructors hour building costs. As the only reason the reluctant instructor instructs is to stay flying and to build up their hours to be more attractive to the airlines, presumably in the absence of the instructor job they would either, not have the hours, or have to go and pay for them themselves. It is therefore a mutually symbiotic relationship.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My aim is not to back up the lazy sods who should be thrown out of the industry. It is to offer a reason why so many do become lazy, dissillusioned, jaded and miserable.

Without changing a single aspect of the job other than paying £30k you would removed 80% of the problem because of the importance of the cerebral contract. Particularly in males who generally measure status through their job.

To come back to my initial statement - its hard to act as if you are on £30k when you are actually on £9k.

Perhaps its a male thing Whirly and - as an aviation nut - you instruct out of a dissproportionate sense of enthusiasm compared to the average Instructor.

Ludwig - I agree on both your points.

Cheers

WWW

[FlyingForFun]

Without changing a single aspect of the job other than paying £30k you would removed 80% of the problem Personally, I agree with that - although not with WWW's reasons. If you were to pay instructors £30k, then a whole load more people with a genuine interest in general aviation, and in instruction, would apply for jobs, or would stay in the job longer. Those who never really wanted to be an instructor in the first place would probably not think to apply, or if they did they would (hopefully) not get through an interview.

Just my opinion.

FFF
-------------

[Ludwig]

Except there would be no jobs. If you effectively treble the staff costs so few people would do PPL’s that most schools would go out of business. People are so mobile these days that wannabe PPL's would go aboard unless the price hike was international. Where then would the hours builders hours build other than by paying for it themselves. A bit of a pyrrhic victory perhaps?

Such action may however lead to an upsurge in the number of PPL instructors instructing on a PPL, the one thing all new FI’s seem to hate with a vengeance!

[FlyingForFun]

True, Ludwig. Except that WWW was trying to relate motivation to pay. So, to illustrate the point, I conveniently ignored every effect of raising instructors' pay except for the motivational factors.

FFF
--------------

[Whirlybird]

WWW,

I'm not convinced either that it's a male thing, or that paying that type of instructor more would make any difference. Either way, the instructor has to be there, and instruct. As I pointed out earlier, it's really no easier to fly with Bloggs and wish you weren't there, than to actually teach him. In my experience, people who skive off do so however well they're paid. They always see their glass as half-empty, and will never be satisfied. Those who see the glass as half-full do their best regardless, and perceive instructing as a stepping stone to better things, and better than having to pay to fly. That doesn't mean they like the pay, or don't get pissed off now and then. One of those "half-empty" instructors, who I flew with and you knew, just about never had a positive word about anything. With hindsight, he was just a miserable git! AFAIK he never got an airline job, but I bet if he had, he'd soon have been whinging about only being a FO, or the hours, or the routes, or the aircraft....or even the pay since others were on more!!! That's what he was like. Pity I didn't see it as a student before I flew rather too many hours with him. :{

I leave myself personally out of all of this. I have other work, that pays reasonably well. I instruct because I love it, because I can't afford to fly helicopters long term otherwise, and because it's a great part time job. I'm very lucky; I do realise that. But that doesn't mean I've been shutting my eyes for the last few years to what goes on with everyone else in the industry.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Ludwig - I never ever meant that instructors should be paid that. The result would be that everybody trained in the States which is obviously a little self defeating.

FFF - yep all those would be upsides of increased salary.

Whirly - if instructing is your only job and you are living in a crappy cold caravan eaking out the pennies in Asda then devotion to the job wears thin after about a year even if you started as the most enthusiastic chap ever.

GA is basically screwed in this country due to sky high taxes and sky high regulatory fees.

It only seems to be getting worse and frankly I don't think there is anything but a smaller future for Group A flying.

The recreational people will head off towards gliding, microlighting and ultralighting as they all become more and more sophisticated and capable and cheaper.

Meanwhile Group A will become the preserve of people training towards higher licenses who will stop GA flying the minute they start commercial flying.

Its only a matter of time before the 'Green' brigade manage to mount an effective campaign against the horrendously low tech high emission noisy engines we use throughout GA. We keep loosing airfields suitable for Group A and with the value of land spiralling out of all control in the UK this will only get worse as owners talk to developers.

The average age of your Group A aircraft has been getting longer since the early 70's. The fleet is old knackered, maintenance intensive, thirsty, unreliable and scruffy.

The costs of certification and design are so high that no replacement for the 152/172/P38/28 is in the offing. Truth be known this suits the country down to the ground. In these crowded skies nobody wants private people pottering about. Nobody wants the noise, nobody wants to pay for radar coverage, nobody wants to operate airfields, nobody wants you burning petrol and spewing out clouds of smoke.

Sad, but the way I think its headed.

Cheers


WWW

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Its simply a case of taking a look at the instructors training:

In the "good" old days it was simple. BCPL- AFI to 600 Hours then unapproved IR training which hopefully took you to 700 hours for the coveted CPL/IR.

With the introduction of JAR there is no incentive to take a "gap year" its approved IR training regardless of your experience.

We have a guy at our place who's basically fallen for the Hype put about by a very large school who suggested that they would be able to get him a job with 250 hours (No guarantees of course). Its over twelve months since his Initial IR he's been a terminal CV sender and earned not a groat in the last 12 months. He gets an E mail every 4 weeks from the same school stating how things are about to improve and to "hang in there" and that his gilt edged education should stand him head and shoulders above all the rest when its interview time........... :yuk:

If somebody was serious about learning their craft as a professional pilot, then I truly feel that the old system was a more complete method.

I truly think that any flying school manager who recieves an application from a JAR CPL/IR with a sizeable gap between Initial IR and FIR ratings should seriously question their motives & dedication with regard to their customers.......

Now if somebody came with a fresh CPL and FIR then it would be difficult to question their motives wouldn't it.

So back to the post ....Don't expect somebody who's just spent 40-50k on an approved course who's then been told that they now have to spend another 6k to fly around in Cessna 150's to act like a tramp on a kipper when they come for interview......

Dont get me wrong I fully agree with the original posters sentiments.

It does make one wonder as to the standard of FO that will be crewing the aircraft that our families fly in in 2 or 3 years time.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sad thing is I know a good chap who is doing just that - 6+months out of OATS Integrated - not a sniff of anything - now saving hard for the FI course.

Doesn't really work does it?

As you suggest - any flying school owner is going to choose the CPL - straight to FI rating - waiting for 1,000hr before doing modular IR course - guy every time.

Cheers

WWW

[IO540]

WWW

Sad, but the way I think its headed

Interesting analysis, and I agree that this is a likely outcome. But it doesn't have to be.

What keeps the whole scene decrepit (and declining) is the small (and reducing) number of students, and the stone age attitudes of most flying school operators.

I fly a new-ish modern plane (not a Cessna or Piper) and most of my many non-aviation passengers have commented they really like flying like that, but they would never go anywhere near the old junk which sits around the airfield. It's pretty clear most "normal" people think along those lines, like it or not. Only a tiny percentage would turn up at a flying school to do a PPL. Many more people swallow their concerns for a single "trial lesson" for somebody's birthday, but that's no good for you.

BUT nobody stops somebody setting up a school with new modern planes. Contrary to what you say, there are plenty about. Look at the Diamond DA40 - sleek, efficient, and most importantly SEXY. Even a TB10 is vastly better than a PA28 into which everybody has to climb through the one door, crawling over the seats and wondering how they would get out if they really had to... A brand new C172 looks like something out of WW2 too. So why don't people do that? Lack of capital will be one reason given no doubt but where there is a business case, one can get money.

Perhaps the #1 reason is that most people IN this business reckon that spending 50hours in a C150 is the proper expression of manhood. These dinosaurs absolutely refuse to believe that somebody doesn't like these "wonderful old planes which are just perfect for training".

Next, you would have to advertise the fact that your planes are modern etc, and drive home to people that you don't fly the same old junk which they see everywhere. How many friends will that win you around your airfield? None (given the often vindictively political scene around airfields - itself the result of nobody making much money), so nobody will do it. I've known people set up with brand new planes but they refused to advertise the fact, for fear of making enemies (and they got no customers). But nothing stops you actually getting modern planes and promoting this huge marketing advantage in a way which any properly run business would.

The margin between direct operating costs of a plane (new one or old one) and what one can charge for a lesson, isn't big so the business case hinges severely on student numbers (aircraft utilisation). All the time these aren't there, one can argue about everything under the sun without getting anywhere. One can rant about taxes, licensing costs, landing fees, you name it. None of this makes any real difference when the "sales" aren't there.

Things could be done, but not without many/most of the dinosaurs disappearing first. This will take time, because many school operators are happy to work for next to nothing. It's a sort of a hobby, and all the time they make enough to pay their rent they will do the same old thing.

It needs a bold approach from an outsider, and it could be done only at certain locations. But I am quite sure that a properly run school, with a modern fleet, correct advertising, and proper facilities for post-PPL pilots, and a few other easy things, would succeed.

[Say again s l o w l y]

IO540 I agree with your sentiments, but it is very difficult to raise the capital required for a new fleet. Banks and most investors run a mile when aviation is mentioned. Many GA companies are backed up by deep pockets and as such turn a very minimal profit (if any!).

Whirly, with all respect, you don't know what you are talking about. Try teaching people for a year earning a pittance, through all conditions and in horrible a/c. Then see how jaded you become.
I consider myself fairly dedicated, but there is no way I would go back to full time teaching again. It simply is not worth it.

Heli instruction is a very different job, the pay is vastly better and you generally do fewer flights per day, so are able to try and do a 'proper' job rather than rushing around like a headless chicken.

[pilotbear]

Well Luke, its all very well you complaining about people not turning up or not being available for interview. You called me and left a message to contact you. I called back several times to be told it was your day off. As luck would have it a student was doing his QXC dual to Cambridge the next day so I took the opportunity to try to save you time and speak to you. However, you 'had only come in to do some paperwork and had not decided who to call in for interview'.
What did you call me for ?- to tell me you were going to call me?
Would 10 minutes of your valuable time been too much as I was there?
Then you called me again a few days later and expected me to drop everything and come for an interview the next day. Perhaps I should have let my clients down at the last minute!!!
I am a very experienced ME/SE unrestricted professional flying instructor with a very professional approach - incidentally I had all my paperwork with me to save you time and I was very interested in the job (and I was wearing a tie).
How dare you make generalisations like that.
Put your own house in order first.
:mad:

[charlie-india-mike]

pilotbear

Calm down, We wouldn't want to raise your blood pressure prior to our little sortie tomorrow would we now.

On the other side , 'to whom it may concern', I am a current licence holder undergoing some further training with pilotbear and am very satisfied with his level of competence and his professionalism. His positve attitude together with his professional skill and pleasent methods of presentation make him one of the best instructors that I have had so far. ( I have had a few during my initial training both in the UK and abroad)

C-I-M

PS. pilotbear ....I have done my homework as prescribed. See you tomorrow.

PPS. Yes , he does wear a tie.

[Send Clowns]

I'm with Snigs. I love teaching, even part time and mostly trial lessons! I have been told by someone who has known me for years, even through my time in the Navy, that she has never seen me so happy and contented.

The JAA decided that instructors would not be dedicated when they would not allow PPL holders to earn money instructing. A CPL became more expensive and difficult at the same time. It is now so expensive to join a career that offers a bare living, if that, that you see very few people starting out to be career instructors. We have ended up with a mix of malcontents stuck (perhaps without the attitude of mind to be commercial pilots) as instructors, people passing through waiting for a "real" job (I call it that, but only because I cannot persuade my girlfriend that instructing is work!), a few people like me who always wanted to be instructors as a hobby alongside a well-paid job and a few people who have been flying for years and who want this as a pleasant career.

There is a lack of quality instructors - we have been called at work by a school wanting two full-timers, unable to fill the vacancies with acceptable candidates. One of our former students, who knows our FI(R) course, called to see if we could put anyone in touch.

[Luftwaffle]

I'm an instructor, and I've worked at three different schools. When I'm instructing the only thought I have of money is towards making the best use of the student's training money. I know that attitude comes through to my students because before I changed schools I got comments like "I hate everything else about this school, but I came here because I wanted to train with you."

I don't know how you are paid, but this is the model in Canada. In round numbers, the student pays $100 per hour for the airplane and $40 per hour for the instructor. Of that, the instructor gets $20, before taxes. Instructors are paid based only on billable hours, the sum of briefing time and aircraft time. You don't fly, you don't eat.

The employers could pay us more without vastly increasing the student's training costs. Lets say that an employer decides to pay twice as much as any school in the area. Assuming comparable aircraft and facilities, he now has the choice of all the best flight instructors. How much does doubling instructor pay increase the student's bill?

The student at the old school takes an hour of instruction with 0.2 hours briefing and pays $148 for the lesson. The school takes $28 profit on the instruction and the instructor takes $28 home.

The student with the well-paid instructor pays $176 for the same lesson. The school makes the same $28 profit on the instructor, the instructor makes $56.

The second student paid 19% more for his lesson. Some students would pay that premium just to know that their school is putting its money where its mouth is to acquire the very best flight instructors. And the student may make up a good portion of that premium in requireing fewer hours to complete the licence.

This assumes that there are good instructors out there, that they will want to work for the best paying school, and that the employer can identify the best instructors in order to hire them.

[Whirlybird]

SAS,

I consider myself fairly dedicated, but there is no way I would go back to full time teaching again. It simply is not worth it.


My point exactly. If you don't like a job, you leave. If you stay, you do it wholeheartedly. End of story.

[Julian]

I cant say I agre with your statement Whirly.
You could absolutely love a job but if the equipment you are been given to do your job is a crock of sh1t then no matter how much you try and convince yourself you arent doing yourself - or more improtantly your students - any favours! Think how they feel when they climb in an aircraft with you with inop stickers all over it....

As for the money side, if teaching is your main game and source of income then sometimes you cant stay in it no matter how much you want to. Two cases I know of personally

1) Friend who closed his shop fitting company to take his dream job of being a diving instructor - after just over a year was back to shop fitting again. It worked along same lines of flying, when he wasnt working he wasnt paid! He now instructs weekends only as full time just didnt pay.

2) Another friend been teaching at his local airfield. Is looking to take IT contracts again to give him some money to enable him to go teaching again later in the year.

Its a wider picture at the end of the day.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Whirly, it's not that I wasn't prepared to give the job its all, I was and still do, but it simply isn't financially worth it and I got fed up of being forced to do a shoody job because of the scheduling system that only allowed 1 1/2 hrs contact with a student when you need to do 1 hr of flying. it isn't possible to brief, debrief, check out the a/c properly in under 30 mins.

I forund that to be the most demoralising thing of all, the fact that I couldn't do the job as well as I wished because of unrealistic time constraints. I felt that the students were getting fleeced and I still do. This is why now I will only teach a max of 4 students in a day, so that I have a good amount of time with them and can go into the depth I feel is necessary.
I lose out because of this, as I only get paid for airborne time NOT contact time, but it allows me to feel that I have done the job properly.

So your sweeping statement,If you don't like a job, you leave. If you stay, you do it wholeheartedly.
Is not realistic. I love the job, but I hate the conditions forced upon us and have taken moves to ensure that "my" students get value for money. Does that make me less dedicated because I won't teach full time any more?

As I said Whirly, You are talking about a subject you don't know much about, you are an instructor, but NOT in fixed wing and that is a very different world to Helis. How do I know that? I hold a CPL(H) as well as an ATPL(A)

[Whirlybird]

Julian and SAS,

You are misunderstanding me, and taking what I said out of context. Shoddy equipment and time constraints are NOT what we were discussing (and incidentally, those exist in the helicopter instruting world too). People had been saying that they would not give their all to the job because they weren't paid enough. I still say that if that is the problem, you either leave the job, or do it wholeheartedly anyway. That applies to any job. I don't need to have been an instructor for years and years to say that, and incidentally, I have been hanging around flying schools for quite a long time, with my eyes open to what goes on.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I state again that after a while it is hard to give everything to your job because you are not paid enough.

Maybe for a minority of people its possible. But to most, the grinding poverty of being a full time PPL FI inevitably leads to jaded dissenthusiasm (if that is a word!) setting in.

Work/Life balance and all that. For £100,000 a year I'll put in 14hr days 6 days a week under enormous pressure. You won't get that from me for £10,000. That is the principle I am saying exists in flight instruction.

There is no solution.

Cheers

WWW

[Gertrude the Wombat]

There is no solution. Well, two possible solutions come to mind, from the point of view of the poor punter, and it's his/her life at stake (if taught badly) after all.

(1) Hire a personal private instructor and pay them £40k pa.

(2) Get taught by someone for whom instructing is a fun hobby, ie is not their day job on which they're trying to bring up a family and support a non-working partner.

[Julian]

Gertrude,

I used to fall into No. 2) but unfotunately had to give up as it was costing me approx £200 each weekend to instruct(not aviation!) in travelling, food, accomdation,etc. I still do the odd bit but mainly for friends now.

Julian.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Getrude - certainly not the worst plan in the world.

Given that you can usually double your instructors take home pay if you slip him a tenner every hour it might be highly cost effective to do so. Having an instructor who is putting in 100% effort rather than - say 75% - for you can make all the difference. Certainly if it saves you even a partialing of the skilltest then it would pay for itself...

Actually that might be thw way of the future. Schools set up where you pay - say £1 - an hour for their instructors time. To get around the NMW instructors could set themselves up as some kind of contractor. The instructor would end up paying no tax, might be able to claim some benefit, the school would reduce their NI contributions. All on the understanding that a bundle of tenners is exchanged in the car park.

Everyones a winner except the tax man.

Working for tax free cash is endemic in other practical service industries - ask any plumber/sparky/chippy/gardener/window cleaner/builder/plasterer/decorator/odd-job man...

Cheers

WWW

[Ludwig]

WWW Nice thought, but how long would it take for your local tax man to cotton on to that - don't forget your next pupil could be one!

How about a scheme whereby the school hires the punter an aircraft at the going solo type rate. The instructors would all name their own price to the punter, and the punter could choose which instructor/price they liked. All money goes through the payroll to avoid tax man related problems. That way the school does not have any instructor costs, (it would deduct the Class 1 NIC from the money) and the instructor can earn whatever they like to charge.

Ends all the arguements about greedy fat cat school owners.

Simple.:ok:

[mad_jock]

I have ferried a plane for a taxman.

When he was given the option of paying through the school and being charged VAT. A bottle and wad of beer tokens was duly produced.

I think actually they have a minimum amount they think they can recover before they are even allowed to try and investigate you.

I cocked up a VAT return to the tune of 400 quid. Admited it and was told to forget it because it would cost more in processing the paper work to sort it out. If i had tried to hide it i don't know what would have happened.

I think the tenner in the car park is quite common, personally i found it quite embarassing until it was the only way i could fill the car.

MJ