Should Instructors get paid less than mininmum wage?

[dwnunderblunderer]

Should Instructors get paid less than min wage, or be happy they have their first job in aviation? If they should accept min wage then how much is enough, or not enough? 1/2 min wage?, 3/4 min wage?

[QNIM]

Hi Geoff Baby
I suspect a send up, how much are you prepared to work for, personally I love what I do but am payed peanuts, but I continue to do it
your call
Q

[huckleberry58]

That's the way it goes. I remember being a fresh C-Cat and having to find my own students. Did less than 50hrs in my first 18 months instructing. Nedless to say I had a 2nd job. But what are the alternatives when you only have ~200hrs and you need them more than they need you.

[QNIM]

Brain is a little clearer this morning, I don't need any remarks about monkeys thank you.
Cheers Q :O

[BEagle]

Let's say you have a little PPL RF with 4 ac. The break-even running cost of the ac is around £68 per hour each and you fly a total of about 2000 hours per annum, thanks to the weather, servicing, demand etc.

If you have a CFI on £30K and 4 FIs on £20K, that's £110K per annum you have to find for staff pay (not including any secretarial etc staff). Where will this come from? The customers, of course. So that's an extra £55 per hour. Now add a profit element of £17 per hour and your cost to the customer becomes £140 per hour before you start thinking about VAT etc. Or hangarage, rent, running costs for the business, accountants fees, heating, lighting, telephone, stationery........

Your 'ethical' pay rates now start to drive your hourly rate up so much that you become uncompetitive. So no customers, no income, no staff pay.....and your business plan indicates a need for around 40 new PPL students per year?

I agree entirely that we should have more 'career' FIs paid a reasonable wage; however, if we set our charges to accommodate that, we'd simply go out of business. The customers just aren't out there who'll pay £160+ per hour to gain PPLs. There might be a few who can only spare a few hours per week - but many of the others will turn to microlighting or go across to one of the US schools where costs are far lower.

And that's the brutal truth. My pay as a Chief Flying Instructor? Four thousands pounds per annum.....

[You want it when?]

Thanks for the break down BEagle - this is what I was looking for a few weeks ago.

[Whirlybird]

BEagle,

Out of interest, what is the breakdown of that £68/hour, ie where does it come from?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Dissheartening figures for sure.

Yet sources tell me that Microlight instructors are in short supply, huge demand and can make a reasonable living wage. Well in the teens anyway.

With the hourly rates, the doabilty of ownership and the capability of modern microlights I can forsee the world of recreational GA giving up on Group A.

For any PPL who restricts themselves to flying in generally good weather maybe taking a friend for a local area tootle about then they could save a packet. Personally I think that a trip about in a microlight is more fun than your average PA38/C152.

You look at something like a Mainair Blade 912. Climbs at 1200fpm fully loaded, cruises all day at 70mph burning 2 gallons an hour and has a take off run of 400ft. You can fly it at 30mph or 100mph. Its been flown around the world a few years ago, can land feasible in many a field and has a reliable quiet four stroke engine.

Here's one for sale thats not even 5 years old with less than 1,000hrs on it for under £14,000:

http://www.bmaa.org/classified.asp?AdvertID=120

Now that is doable. That would be fun flying without fretting about the Hobbs meter. I could justify taking that out on a sunny afternoon just for the hell of it.

These days I have to severely limit my GA time due to the ever increasing costs. I used to be in 1999 able to hire a PA38 for £55 an hr wet. Its getting close to double that now. :(

Cheers

WWW

[BEagle]

My 4 ac fleet PA28 breakdown is:

Fuel (7½ imp. gall per hour @ £0.85 per litre) = £28.90
Engine replacement allowance (£16000/2400 hours) = £6.67
Annual inspections (based on current rate) = £6.23
Aircraft insurance (£11000/2000 hours) = £5.50
50/150 hour maintenance (based on last year's £26938.81/1560 hours plus 3%) = £17.79
Contingency (avionics, re-trimming etc) = £3.00
TOTAL = £68.09

And that's being optimistic with the fuel price!

[maflsc]

BEagle

The bottom line is the same for me here in Oz.

I have a small country flying school and I can only charge what the students are prepared to pay for a lesson in PA 28.

So all you instructors and students out there, we are not making fortunes out of our aeroplanes.

Why do we do it, I for one keep operating just to see the smile on the students face after his / her first solo. :D

[QNIM]

Gday maflsc
How would you like to get AU$164.10 per hour for a PA28, before adding on profit, we would be laughing. Just worked it out from BEagle's figures, seems we are better off in OZ
Cheers Q

[Ludwig]

From BEagles figures, which I have no problem with btw, it is clear that in order to make a sensible living, perhaps the £20 and £30K number quoted earlier, it is a miracle anyone survives as a fleet owner let alone as an instructor. Why then are there so many people queuing up at flying school doors to be instructors for next to nothing, and why are there so many crappy little flying schools about struggling along with a couple of battered 172 or PA28 - virtually every airfield has them. The other factor in the figures is the stupidly low cost of maintenance charges. Take your BMW or Merc into the garage and labour rates are many time what most maintenance units charge.

Perhaps what is needed in the industry is some wholesale removal of all the cheap operators competing on price offering non existent services in ****ty old aircraft, and for a couple of good sized operators to move in. I wonder what the figures look like if you have say 150 aircraft and all the in-house infrastructure to run the show properly.

[dwnunderblunderer]

In New Zealand the government decided that we needed more pilots so they introduced fully funded student loan schemes for any avaition training organisation who could attach themselves to a university. Any person who wanted to have a crack at being a commercial pilot called a toll free number and in three weeks had $70k in a trust fund waiting to be spent on a new career as a commercial pilot. Not many of them acutally had the fortitude to see the whole lot through to the end, however the number of surplus pilots in this country soared and the wage for instructors plummetted,(Admittedly I dont know the actual figures of how much this fully funding affected wages but it starts to get pretty grim). Now the average renumeration for any one as a FI from fresh through to 500-1000 hrs is about 10 per flying hour. My average monthly hours- 18. I am lucky enough to have a small retainer that boosts my take home pay per year gross to 12k(NZD). Cheers NZ Govt. Big help.

[niknak]

Which begs the question, why does anyone bother instructing as a career, or come to that, even want to run a flying school in the first place?

Of the 10 flying school owners I know personally, all of them have other business interests that pay the mortgage and keep the wolf from the family door, their aviation interests, after overheads, are just that, interests.

Two of them, IMHO, have the right idea, they pay decent full time salaries to their respective, two full time instructors - who, in both cases are career instructors with no interests in going on to fly with the airlines. I don't know how they select the right people, but they seem to do so most of the time.
It's a win - win situation, the clubs are guaranteed to have experienced, loyal instructors, and the instructors are guaranteed a regular salary regardless of whether they can fly or not.
Additionally, the respective clubs have gained good reputations for providing the customer with quality service, and are always busy.