Southern California fires spreading rapidly (Firefighting photographs)

[Heliport]

San Jose Mercury News report Grounded crew escapes fire as flames skirt crippled helicopter

RANCHO CUCAMONGA, Calif. - Helicopter pilot Mike Roederer and his crew fight fires from the sky, but on Thursday night they were on the ground with their disabled chopper in the path of a wildfire.

Roederer, 46, who was sleeping in a nearby trailer to safeguard the aircraft, awoke to the sight of flames coming down a mountain toward him.
He quickly grabbed his cell phone and called his crew.
"Hurry up and get over here. The fire's coming and I've got to get this helicopter out of here," he told them.

A day earlier, the men had been hauling water in the Bell 214-B1 heavy-lifter. But a blown hydraulic line forced them to land on a rise in an open field.

As thousands of people fled the flames that night, Roederer and his crew went to work trying to save the helicopter.

The first thing Roederer had to do was move a 4,000-gallon fuel truck parked nearby. It had been brought in as part of the maintenance effort on the disabled chopper.

"I got in it and drove it out to the freeway" about a mile away, he said.

Roederer's fellow crew members - co-pilots Greg Smith and mechanic A.J. Massei - arrived and gave him a lift back in a pickup truck.

"We drove past all the fire trucks and firefighters. They kept telling us to stop. but we had to get to the helicopter," said Massei, 32, of Ureka.

Smith, 35, of Pine Grove, said they parked as close as they could then ran to the aircraft. They got within 20 feet.

"The flames were coming over the road, covering it," Smith said. "At that point we knew we weren't going to get it started and we had to get out of there."

Massei said the three men, clad only in T-shirts and shorts, turned and ran toward the pickup, passing Roederer's trailer, which was engulfed in flames.

"The smoke was so bad, we couldn't breathe too good," he said. "We had to get out of there."

The three watched the flames burn from the safety of a fire line.
"We were frustrated and heartbroken," Massei said. "I have two kids, but this my baby."

As the smoke started to clear, Massei said, they could still see the blades of the helicopter. "The fire came through, the smoke cleared and here it was sitting. It made it through," said Smith, shaking his head.
Its exterior was blackened by the heat, but the chopper was still in one piece and would fly again.

"If we had landed it anywhere else out here, it would be gone," Roederer said about the open landing area.

Smith said he hopes to stay in the air the next time he encounters such a blaze. "The fire is not supposed to be this close to us," he said.

The Jackson-based Helimax Corp. helicopter was under contract with the U.S. Forestry Service to fight wildfires.


http://www.citivu.com/cgif/la-map2b.gif

[sprocket]

Just saw it on a news clip (sound turned down).

It was sillouetted against a firey sky, tied down and empty. Thought it was a goner!

[rotormatic]

What kind of inspection will be needed to get this helicopter to "fly again"?

Heat damage inspections are not well defined....

[Heliport]

http://a.abclocal.go.com/images/102403_chopper_burned.jpg

[Heliport]

ABC News Online report Thousands evacuated as fires menace California homes

Thousands of people were evacuated from their homes as a raging wildfire fanned by fierce winds crept into residential areas north-east of Los Angeles, officials said.

In less than 24 hours, the raging blaze had grown from around 3,000 acres to more than 12,000 acres as it raced across forest and brush land, fire officials said.

An army of more than 1,400 fire fighters backed by a flotilla of planes and helicopters were battling the inferno as it lapped around homes and forced the closure of two major freeways.

"Several thousand people have now been evacuated as the fire moves toward built up areas with erratic winds making its direction unpredictable," said Georgia Smith, fire information officer for the San Bernardino National Forest where the blaze is burning.

"Our major concern is that there a lot of homes around the fire. It's a high priority to us as we have houses threatened and lives potentially threatened," said fire spokesman Gil Sanchez.

By Friday afternoon, the fire had destroyed four houses, two outbuildings, six cars, a boat and a fire fighting helicopter that had been forced to land due to mechanical difficulties on Thursday, Ms Smith said.

Officials estimated the damage at $US1.7 million, with the flames showing no signs of abating.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Tell me, am I some sort of Nerd?

I found my self over the weekend watching and scanning for news of the fires, just to see if this Heli was safe or toast, I am happy that a pilot has his craft in one piece, but I beg the question, If he was going to crank it up and move it, could he not have flown it out of danger originally??

Would have saved my kids laughing at me! :8

[Heliport]

CNN.com California wildfires wreak havoc

Wildfires engulfing huge swaths of Southern California have killed at least 13 people and sent tens of thousands seeking refuge.

The state's deadliest blazes in more than a decade raged through areas as far north as Simi Valley in Ventura County, east to San Bernardino County and south to San Diego County -- scorching more than 300,000 acres of earth.

Weather forecasts indicate more hot and dry conditions that will mix with the Santa Ana winds and could fan the flames that have reached 100 feet tall in places.

President Bush declared four Southern California counties major disaster areas Monday, opening the way for federal dollars for governments, businesses and people affected by the fires.

The president's order covers Los Angeles, San Bernardino, San Diego and Ventura counties, according to The Associated Press.

California Gov. Gray Davis, who has declared states of emergency in those counties, activated the National Guard to help with disaster relief.

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/US/West/10/27/california.wildfire/story.rainbow.ap.jpg

More than 8,000 firefighters were trying to contain at least 10 fires in the region early Monday. But Dallas Jones, director of the Governor's Office for Emergency Services, said most of the fires were less than 20 percent contained, and some weren't contained at all.

The fires have destroyed about 700 homes, according to The Associated Press, scorched more than 300,000 acres and left tens of thousands in houses without electricity.

[B Sousa]

Sad as it is, it will happen again in the same place in anywhere from 5-10 years. Same as the Landslides in Malibu... The area is overpopulated and caution is not taken by developers.
As soon as the brush grows back, the houses will be rebuilt and sometime around this part of the year you will read about it again....
Its all about Money......

[Heliport]

http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8158/5m/images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-10/9983422.jpg http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8158/5m/images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-10/9983380.jpg
http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8158/5m/images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-10/9983315.jpg http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8158/5m/images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-10/9984310.jpg http://a1022.g.akamai.net/f/1022/8158/5m/images.latimes.com/media/photo/2003-10/9985124.jpg

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2003/10/27/national/28fire.l.jpg

[Autorotate]

If anyone is interested the yellow and blue machines are the Super 205s and are operated by the Ventura County Sheriffs Dept and based at Camarillo Airport.

:E

P.S. Rialto Airport is home to the following aircraft today according to one of my readers:

6 S-64s
1 S-61
6 Bell 212s
2 AS350s
2 JetRangers

[Flying Lawyer]

NBC-San Diego

San Diego is suffering particularly badly, overwhelmed local firefighters not knowing if or when they will get any help. Firecrews were supported by only nine airplanes and one helicopter Sunday.

Many of the county's resources had been called to San Bernardino and Los Angeles counties last week to fight big wildfires raging in those areas. Under the CDF's mutual assistance system, those resources cannot be released back to San Diego until they are no longer needed.

State officials have designated the San Diego fires the most important in the state, he said. Fire crews and air tankers will be sent here as soon as they become available, but that probably won't happen Monday, Bowman (San Diego Fire Chief) said.

When asked for a containment estimate, Bowman said, "The only place you could say there is containment is where the fire has already burned." "Our hope is that the winds stay down," Bowman said. "If the winds kick up, there's no telling what's going to happen."

--------------------

The California fires seem to have been started by arsonists. New fires were sparked when embers were blown by fierce Santa Ana winds, with gusts up to 70 mph. http://sosd-gallery.camzone.com/albums/031024fires/scal3.jpg

Bert
The developers meet the demand. I can't criticise that - if I had my time over, I'd be living there not here. Southern California is the nearest I've found to the perfect place to live, and San Diego is the jewel in the crown.

San Diego pictures
It couldn't have happened at a worse time of year for San Diego, they haven't had any measurable rain for about six months.

Scripps Ranch developmenthttp://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/images/gibbins/gallery03.jpg http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/images/gibbins/gallery08.jpg http://sosd-gallery.camzone.com/albums/sandiegocountywildfires/sd3.jpg

Traffic and fire on the I-15 http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/images/gibbins/gallery05.jpg http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/images/ut_gallery/gallery06.jpg

East County (not one of the expensive areas)
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/fires/images/ut_gallery/gallery16.jpg


======================

Firefighting in LA (120+ miles N of San Diego)

http://sosd-gallery.camzone.com/albums/031024fires/031024fire5.sized.jpg http://sosd-gallery.camzone.com/albums/031024fires/scal1.jpg http://sosd-gallery.camzone.com/albums/031024fires/scal2.jpg

[B Sousa]

flying lawyer writes:"Bert
The developers meet the demand. I can't criticise that - if I had my time over, I'd be living there not here. Southern California is the nearest I've found to the perfect place to live, and San Diego is the jewel in the crown."

I have to agree on that, as I said its all about money. This set of fires is the worst I have seen in my lifetime and my relatives came to California in the 1850s.
Not enough Real Estate, loose contols on building, and folks who dont want to destroy their pretty views.. Look at some of those homes in the pictures, little Clearance from a non native tree and brush.. Those Bay trees are extremely good fuel for fires.
Im sure once all is said and done Lawyers will not need to be looking for work for a few years.
And all our Insurance rates will go through the roof......

[ptwaugh]

Can't be the fault of the arsonists. It must be the developers for building without turning everything into concrete, and the city for not having enough codes, and the homeowners for living there. Get real. Let's stop blaming the rape victim for the rape.

Sadly, arsonists pick this time each year as it is dry, there are winds, and this year inparticular is very bad as drought has killed 3 out of 4 trees in the forests in San Bernardino and Riverside counties.

It was only a matter of time this year. With California virtually broke, this will hurt the economy even more, and more lives will be lost before this is over.

[vaqueroaero]

Well from someone based just North of San Diego.......
We are about 20 miles from the fires and located on the coastline. At present the visibility is about 3/4 of a mile in smoke - no flying today.
Luckily the winds are starting to die down and the humidity is set to rise again.
As far as fighting the fires in San Diego go it spread alarmingly fast, and frankly caught everyone off guard. Unfortunatley the majority of fire crews were up North fighting the fires in San Bernadino. The San Digo fire fighting helicopter was deemed a waste of money two weeks ago, so was sent away (not that one aircraft would have a difference - but every little helps). By the time any fire crews were brought back in the damage was done.
The one fact that I don't understand is that San Diego has one of the largest concentrations of military helicopters around. Bases such as Miramar, Pendleton, North Island have a huge number of CH46's, 53's, Blackhawks, Hueys etc sitting around doing nothing, along with their pilots. What politics dictate that they are not airborne? Or is it simply that they do not have the right equipment?

[RDRickster]

There are several legal and constitutional issues with military helicopters being used for fire fighting (even if it seems like common sense). First, the Defense Department doesn't have that mission assigned. That means that military pilots are not funded for that mission; therefore, they aren't trained for that mission. Second, most pilots have a priority mission already (i.e. in some kind of rotation to overseas forward areas in Iraq, Afganistan, etc). Thirdly, only the National Guard can be called on by the Governor of the State to provide this type of assistance. I doubt the Aviation Brigades in the National Guard have many aircraft of that type capable of this task anyway. Federal troops can only be used if Martial Law is declared under some kind of Federal emergency. Here is a summary between National Guard and Reserves/Active Military; I hope this makes sense (and why it's important)...

Army National Guard - These are State militia, and the commanding general is actually the Governor of the state. As a State militia, they are the ONLY military folks that have the consitutional ability to use police powers with cilivians (except Coast Guard). The bottom line is, in case of civil unrest or State emergency, these are the ONLY folks that can provide humanitarian assitance or to engage civilians with any kind of force (Posse Comitatus). In addition, they are also part of the National Command Authority's security plans for defense and combat support.

Army Reserves/Active Army - These are Federal troops, and the Reservists are designated as "on-call" to augment the Active component. The constitution PROHIBITS federal troops from ANY civil or police action whatsoever (Posse Comitatus). The only exception is if a Federal emergency is declared and Martial law is SPECIFICALLY implemented. An example would be when Hurricane Andrew hit Florida several years ago. After weeks of trouble with looters and badly needed logistical and medical support, Federal soldiers were temporarily given these powers and that portion of the State was under Martial law (that means even the Governor had no power in that area). In history, this has happened very few times. Usually everything you hear and see on TV is the National Guard. Generally, Reservists are activated to supported the Regular Army (i.e. go and help in Iraq).

[Flying Lawyer]

There seems to a strong basis for the suspicion that some of the fires were started by arsonists.

There was a coordinated arson attack last month in which four homes under construction were destroyed and two others damaged. One of several banners found at the sites in north San Diego read: "Development destruction. Stop raping nature. The ELFs are angry."
ELF stands for Earth Liberation Front :rolleyes: a lunatic criminal environmentalist group that admits dozens of acts of arson and vandalism, including a $50 million fire that destroyed a residential development in San Diego in early August.

[West Coast]

Greetings from San Diego or should I say from Dantes inferno...

I am located in Rancho Bernardo, about as far north on I15 as you can go and still be in city limits of San Diego. Roughly equal distant between the valley center fire to the north and the ceder fire to the south. The smoke is everywhere, which makes it hard to discern where the fires are. I am trying not to venture too far from home to honor requests not to clog the streets. This leaves me getting my news the same as you, the TV. I am not seeing much of the air support other than transiting aircraft. The tempatures have started to cool as the winds blow in from the Pacific rather from the desert. This is helping some and hurting others. Have seen a number of fire officials say that the onshore winds will now push the fire twords previously untouched areas. The fire in North county near Escondido has started a southern fork and is burning slowly twords the San Diego wild animal park. This is a world class facility and its loss would be unthinkable. The last numbers I saw on the tube, in the whole of socal, 1500 homes gone, approaching 600,000 acres burned. 3/4 the size of the state of Rhode Island. Work was very understanding about me not leaving on a four day trip. There are a number of pilots that I have been unable to contact who live in affected areas. I can get the answering machine on all but one of them. Wife is a teacher, at least two of here co workers have lost homes or barns.

As far as the poster who commented on Posse commitatus, I don't know if that applies to non law enforcement activities. The military had committed C130s with the MAFFs equipment. The 130s are I believe a AFR componant, not guard. I stand to be corrected of course.To the best of my knowledge martial law has not been enacted, I imagine that would be all over the news if it had I myself was involved in bucket ops in the early 90s while living in Hawaii. As perhaps mentioned already, a law from the depression era days of the 30's may be the culprit. In an attempt to keep people employed civil assets must be used prior to military capabilities. This may have worked in the 1930s and still has some application today, but not at the expense of safety. I can't imagine the author of that legislation could imagine a broad based law such as that would hinder fire fighting operations 70 years later.

As far as the origin of the San Diego fires, seems it was a lost deer hunter in the moutains near Julian who started a fire to signal searchers. You have to feel for the guy, lost without food or water in the sticks. I don't know as I would have done anything different than he did.

[Autorotate]

On one of the other helo forums someone made a comment not to blame the CDF, because the State took awya some of their funding. Here is my response to that.

______________

Your comment that CDF isnt too blame for the escalation of the San Diego fire is a crock of ****e.

I know for an absolute fact that when the initial fire started, ie: when the guy who fired the flare was picked up, the San Diego County Sheriff sent a helicopter with bucket to put out what was then a small fire about the size of half a football field. CDF Air Ops told the helicopter crew DO NOT go out there because of rules and regs, and this is documented on the Call Centre printouts. This was approx two hours before sunset. They were told that CDF would handle this in the morning. Well come the morning it is a hell of a lot bigger and has developed into what you see now.

The other issue is I can tell you three operators, one based in nereby Nevada, OAS approved, pilots carded etc etc who have called CDF Air Ops TEN (10) times saying that are available to help. Every single time they have been refused and told CDF have it under control. Now this is arrogance at its best. A lot of people are asking a lot of questions about the fires and especially why they have NO helicopter assets. The total number of helicopters being used in SD County are approx five, thats right five bloody helicopters, and with operators all over the place saying Hey we are available. And yet CDF dont want outside help.

Even though SD County was screaming for air assets the State had TWO MAFF equipped C-130s sitting on the ramp at McClellan but the Governor wouldnt release them to go and help. No wonder the State voted him out.

I hope CDF get all their funding cancelled and leave it up to private industry.

General consenus from those I have spoken to have said that CDF is dragging this out so they can use it to get more funding from the Government. If thats the case then those in charge need to be charged with murder and arson.

Just my two cents worth. I have a lot of friends in SD and am in regular touch with them, and this inaction by Government related agencies is pure self serving at its best.

:E

[B Sousa]

Dont go there Ned. I know most of those Players and they are pretty dedicated folks....I have a few pay stubs doing that work and am more than willing to introduce you to the crowd on your next visit.....
I am OAS carded also and not in SD. Its just not that simple. You dont just hop in a helo and start dumping water......
By the Way I still have that Cow waiting for the BBQ on your next trip....

[Autorotate]

Bert - Too late have already gone there. The issues are with the Southern area of command. The Northern and Eastern ones, operators have no problem with them at all.

I have watched this whole thing since Day 1 and you ask any operator that has dealt with the Southern Region, it is the biggest Cluster F**K every year when they try to deal with them. I just got two calls from operators I know within SD County and both have been trying to get their machines tasked onto one of the fires but CDF are still telling them they have it under control, come on give me a break. All you have to do is watch the news.

Yes some of the management are good, ie: the front line guys, but when you get up to the higher levels of management its a whole different ballgame, and I have seen that inept attitude in action there previously.

Here is a great quote from one of the pilots actually working on the fire:

"CDF are treating this fire like its a little grass fire in outback Nevada, not a 100,000 acre fire that has killed 20+ people and destroyed hundreds of houses."

Anyway my two cents worth. By the way take your cow down to SD and you might save a few bucks on the BBQ'ing.



:E

[vaqueroaero]

So just to reiterate - once again the politicians and good old red tape have screwed everything up again.
Just to add insult to injury one San Diego operator is sending one of his machines to Mexico tomorrow (smoke permitting). To do what? Fight fires of course.

[Autorotate]

Yes that is correct, was talking to our Irish friend today and he is sending the Astar and bucket south of the border. He did the same thing last year.

Shows how bloody stupid it is, here is an operator based right in San Diego and he cant get his helicopters on the fires in his own backyard and so he ends up heading down into Mexico. Dont you love the red tape and B/S that goes with this.

:E

[Flying Lawyer]

Just in case some people aren't familiar with 'CDF', it's the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection.

The CDF's mission is the fire protection and stewardship of over 31 million acres of California's privately-owned wildlands. In addition, it provides varied emergency services in 35 of the State's 58 counties via contracts with local governments.


NBCSandiego.com
11:24 p.m. PST October 28, 2003SAN DIEGO Residents fled from rural communities in north, east and southern San Diego County Tuesday as fires continued to rage out off control for a third day.

Exhausted fire crews were pulled back in San Diego County even though two devastating blazes threatened to merge into a super fire. "They're so fatigued that despite the fact the fire perimeter might become much larger, we're not willing to let the firefighters continue any further," said Rich Hawkins, a U.S. Forest Service fire chief. "They are too fatigued from three days of battle."

The flames are feeding on millions of dead trees, weakened by drought and killed by a bark beetle infestation. Officials were particularly worried about "crowning," where flames leap from one treetop to another, leaving firefighters on the ground all but powerless to stop them.
"If that occurs, we don't have the capability to put those fires out," U.S. Forest Service spokeswoman Carol Beckley said. "It will be a firestorm."

Ten thousand firefighters were on the front lines throughout the state, battling California's deadliest wildfires in more than a decade.

Authorities announced two more deaths in San Bernardino County on Tuesday, bringing the death toll from the fires to 16.

Since Oct. 21, at least 10 wind-driven wildfires -- many of them arson-caused -- have rampaged through Southern California, demolishing neighborhoods, gutting businesses and blackening more than half a million acres of land from the Mexican border to the Ventura-Los Angeles county line. Nearly 1,600 homes have been destroyed. Two burn victims were in critical condition in San Diego.

San Diego's Cedar Fire is the largest in California. It has blackened more than 215,000 acres -- nearly 10 percent of the county.
It formed a 45-mile front in the East County and was just miles from merging with the 37,000-acre Paradise Fire fire near Escondido.

http://images.ibsys.com/2003/1027/2585160_320X240.jpg
The City of San Diego isn't marked on the map - it's in the bottom left corner just above 'Chula Vista'.

Satellite image showing smoke plumes over the county http://images.ibsys.com/2003/1028/2588023_320X240.jpg

[sprocket]

Send in Arnie! :*

[RDRickster]

Ned,

Why don't we hear about this "red tape" issue in the news? You would think the citizens of California would be outraged. Heck, now that federal dollars (our taxes) are going to an emergency area that MAY have been manageable before it became a disaster area is disconcerting. There will always be waste in any organization (governement the most, big business the second, etc). However, I find it ludacous that an operator is flying to Mexico when he's been offering his services locally over the past week! Why don't you contact the Editor's desk at the Washington Post, LA Times, etc, and have them investigate this further. If they can verify the facts, hopefully they will get this into the public arena.

R2

[Flying Lawyer]

Re lack of airborne firefighting in San Diego -

Extracts from an article in today's LA Times SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA FIRES

Delay in Aerial Water Drops Is Criticized
Some officials in San Diego County blame the Davis administration.
Overlapping jurisdictions hindered early responses.

SAN DIEGO — As fire continued to destroy large portions of San Diego County, the dispute between some local officials and the administration of Gov. Gray Davis intensified Tuesday over why aerial tankers and water-laden helicopters were not available in the first two days of the blaze.

County supervisors fumed that Davis was too slow in authorizing the use of state "air assets" to douse the fire and too timid in seeking federal assistance. Several had pleaded with the governor's staff last weekend to redirect state resources to San Diego and demand help from the federal government and military.

Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-Alpine), whose home was destroyed by fire Monday, said federal legislation that would smooth the way for the military to use its helicopters to fight fire on public and private land is being stymied by private companies that lease firefighting planes to state governments.

Throughout San Diego County, in the early phase of the most destructive fire in its history, homeowners had looked skyward for tankers and helicopters but didn't see any.
"The only chance to stop the fire was aerial tankers early on Sunday morning, backed by bulldozers, and that's what didn't happen," said Richard Carson, an economics professor at UC San Diego and an expert on public policies involving disaster response, including large-scale brush fires.

The answer to the lack of tankers in the fire's early hours lies in the overlapping responsibilities of local, state, federal and military agencies, and in a less-than-speedy process for requesting outside help. In addition, officials said state air equipment could not be deployed over San Diego in the first 48 hours of the fires because the skies were considered too smoky for safe flying.

San Diego's own fire helicopter, and many of its firefighters and fire engines, had been deployed beginning Friday to fight fires in San Bernardino and Ventura counties under a long-standing "mutual aid" agreement. State firefighting personnel and equipment were also focused on those blazes.

San Diego-based Navy helicopters, routinely used to fight fires on military property, were prepared to battle the Cedar fire on Sunday but remained grounded because state officials said the Navy pilots did not have appropriate training. The helicopters were flown to the Ramona airport, but pilots were denied permission to drop water.

To receive assistance from the U.S. Forest Service or the military, a governor must prove that local forces are inadequate, officials said.

City officials took a less confrontational tone than county officials. "I don't believe there were any significant delays," said San Diego Fire Chief Jeff Bowman. "When you have the volume of incidents [throughout Southern California] like we had, you cannot get the resources everywhere you need them."

Bowman defended the Southern California system of mutual aid as a model for the nation. And he said he was disappointed but not upset when told by state officials on Sunday that pilots of the state's air tankers had declared the air too smoky.
"That's their professional judgment and I accept it," said Bowman, flanked by San Diego Mayor Dick Murphy and Police Chief Bill Lansdowne.

Hunter said the "firefighting bureaucracy" tends to be slow to act and that officials are reluctant to criticize other fire officials.
Hunter said other members of Congress from Western states have been frustrated when asking state officials to request aerial tankers and helicopters from the U.S. military. "There's a reluctance among the firefighting bureaucracy at the state and federal levels to use military assets until they exhaust the last of private companies," Hunter said.

He said he has teamed with a congressman from Colorado to seek a change in federal law that would speed the process of getting military craft to fight fires. The private companies that lease and operate aerial tankers are opposed to such a move, Hunter said.

[B Sousa]

I guess its a matter of who do we thank for the Bureaucratic nightmare in California. Its awfully easy to blame CDF. Im not ready to do that. Im sure when all is said and done it SHOULD fall back on the Previous Governor and his attitude towards the state. He would rather fund Illegal Alien schooling and medical needs than CDF.
Besides all the crap we can do to point blame. I have NEVER seen a larger fire operation run smoothly untill it came time for mop up. One I will never forget is a rush to sling two 55 gal drums of fuel to a fire line for a Cat that was cutting brush. We jumped through our butts to get the fuel out there. Later that night I saw a truck bringing the fuel back as they didnt need it....Just a small example of a big Rat F**K.

[B Sousa]

Just for a small update for those across the Pond. The visibility here in Vegas has gone down in the last few hours from SMOKE. The sun now gives that Orange tint that I have seen so many times. Those fires are over 200 miles away, just to give you an idea how large they are.
Rather than second guess all the failures on this mess we should take a minute to see if in some way we can help those who may not be covered by Insurance and who need some help until the right help arrives. Im not a Red cross fan, but you may consider donations to them EARMARKED for the victims or some other method of help.
Its gonna be a big mess for years to come.....

Another Update: Most of the Helicopter Tour operators here in VEGAS.....Yes, Las Vegas are shut down this afternoon because visibility in Class B is 1 3/4 Mile IFR......In SMOKE. Now thats a first

[West Coast]

Flying Lawyer
FYI, the city of San Diego is actually is a lot larger than the area you have indicated. The Northern boundry, which is where I live goes all the way North to just short of Escondido. If you pointing out the downtown area, then you were correct.

[HeliMark]

Just to give some update on the fires from where I am at. I can not comment on the San Diego fires or the ones in San Bernardino, although from my house the smoke plume is awsome.

The one that started as the "Val Verde" fire, then became the "Simi Valley" fire is in my patrol area. Yesterday was the first day I was involved in helping in evacuations and crowd control. My department does not allow us, and does not give us the capability to drop water (a real thorn in the side for us). So far no one can stop the fire as it keeps changing direction. And as of yesterday, the winds went from an offshore to an onshore causing the fire to go in yet another direction.

I was operating in visibility of only a couple of miles or less in smoke and ash. There is no way that the couple of bombers on this fire could get into most of it. The smoke above us was to great. The county had 4-5 helicopters (including both Firehawks), and also two National Gaurd Blackhawks. They were doing a great job of protecting the house's. If they can stop it today, then we should be fine, but if not, there is a trailer park in its path with very thick brush around it.

I have spent the last several months searching the mountains and hills around this area for funny green stuff growing, and can tell you, the brush is very very thick everywhere. Most area's you can not land even with a 500 on high skids due to the thick brush. Hopefully with the temps droping about 5-10C by tomorrow and the marine layer comming in, they can get a handle on the fires.

To give an example of the smoke even away from the fires, I was flying to my home base which is about 30 miles from the fires. Due to mountains inbetween, I usually fly along a freeway through the mountains at night to have something flat under me. The pass I go through is about 2K feet higher and 25 miles from the fire. The visibility was still less then one mile. I am not sure how high it went as anything over 500 agl the freeway became a little to hard to see. And this was at night.:uhoh:

[Flying Lawyer]

West Coast

You're right. I used 'city' as we'd use it here, I should have said 'downtown'. I think of being clear of the "city" (British sense) North of the 8, or thereabouts.
As GB Shaw said, we're two countries divided by a common language. :)

I thought the fire burning from the East along Miramar Air Station all the way to the 805-52 freeway interchange looked very worrying for a time. If that had got into Rose(?) Canyon it could have burned through towards La Jolla, University City and Clairemont. A friend spoke to some firefighters who said they were desperate to contain it at the 805 because there was a real danger it would burn everything in its path all the way to the ocean.

[Time Out]

Nine choppers based at Santa Paula Airport await orders
By Michelle L. Klampe, [email protected]
October 29, 2003

Chris Shaw spent most of Tuesday morning hanging out of a Blackhawk helicopter, unleashing 770-gallon buckets of water just in front of a raging wildfire and hoping to halt the quickly spreading flames.

"You actually see the spray. It takes one or two seconds for all of the water to come out of the bucket," said Shaw, a sergeant with a California National Guard Army unit from Los Alamitos. "We want to drop it in the green (unburned areas) and saturate it as much as we can with water."

Shaw and about 20 people from Los Alamitos were called into action over the weekend to help fight the Simi fire.

Since Sunday, he's been flying missions out of the Santa Paula Airport, which has been transformed into base camp for nine helicopters.

"The concentration today was the big head of the Simi fire. We were concentrated on the north ridge by Magic Mountain," Shaw said during a brief refueling stop at the airport about 1 p.m. "We saw huge flames. The fire was racing up. It comes down the ravines, then races up. It's truly unbelievable."

Airport officials closed the airport so it could be used as a helicopter base. Several firetrucks, refuelers and recreational vehicles -- used for communication and support for the helicopters -- now line the runway in front of the airport.

Jim Fuller, a fire captain with the California Department of Forestry, serves as helicopter coordinator at the site. When an incident commander calls for helicopters, Fuller sends them out.

At his disposal Tuesday were four Ventura County helicopters, one from Santa Barbara County, three Blackhawks from Los Alamitos and one private helicopter. Most of the helicopters use buckets to scoop water from golf course and agricultural ponds and drop it in front of the fire. Sometimes they are used for coordination or scouting.

"We've dropped over 200,000 gallons of water over the last two days out here," Fuller said. "With the helibase, it's either feast or famine. You're either working really hard or trying to find something to do."

Pilots and their air crews may have long wait periods between runs if the winds are too strong or if the needs on the fire line change. Tuesday morning, crews from Los Angeles County were covering the Simi fire, and the Piru fire was moving away from Fillmore, so the Santa Paula crews didn't have much to do.

"It's been pretty low key. Right now we're waiting to possibly be switched" to another fire, said Steve Campfield, pilot of the Santa Barbara County Fire Department helicopter. A short time later, he was called back to work, making water drops on the north flank of the Simi fire.

"We were up in the air almost five hours yesterday. We were what they call a helicopter coordinator," Campfield said before he flew out again. "When there's many other aircraft in the air, the most important thing is to keep a separation from the (other) aircraft."

A patch of grass in the shade in front of the airport office has become the resting grounds for the helicopter crews and their support teams -- about 45 people in all.

Ground crews can sit idle for lengthy stretches. Much of their work, including inspection and maintenance, is done after the helicopters are done flying for the day.

"I'm tired of working on my tan," joked Jeff Ratkovich, a National Guard sergeant and crew chief, while he waited for the Blackhawks to return for refueling and inspection.

He said he enjoys the camaraderie at the base camp but also understands the importance of the work he and his colleagues are doing.

"I'm thankful that we're in a position to make a difference and help," Ratkovich said.

"We're doing something for our country. That's exactly what the National Guard is supposed to do."


Source (http://www.insidevc.com/vcs/county_news/article/0,1375,VCS_226_2385078,00.html)

[Heliport]

Santa Paula's a good way North of LA. The shortage of air support seems to be in San Diego, about 100+ miles South of LA.

==============
Oregon Statesmanjournal online report
Oregon to lend firefighting helicopter to California

Seven-member Oregon National Guard crew and a specialized firefighting helicopter to Southern California.
The crew’s mission is to operate the National Guard’s UH60 Firehawk Helicopter and help with the deadly California wildfires.

The Oregon National Guard is the only Guard unit in the country with a UH60 Firehawk. Oregon got the helicopter through arrangements with the Department of Defense and Sikorsky Helicopter Co., at no cost to the state.

Since Oct. 21, at least 10 wind-driven wildfires — many of them arson-caused — have rampaged through Southern California, demolishing neighborhoods, gutting businesses and blackening more than half a million acres of land from the Mexican border to the Ventura-Los Angeles county line.

Nearly 1,600 homes have been destroyed, and 10,000 firefighters were on the front lines throughout the state.

Authorities say the death toll from the fires is 16.

Firehawk at Salem River Front Park, Oregon
http://www.mil.state.or.us/images/Firehawk/Jul00/waterdrop1.jpg

[West Coast]

Flying Lawyer

When I heard on the radio that the firefighters were going to make a stand and not let the fire past the 805 freeway I surely thought it was a slip of the tongue. No way a fire originating in the sticks of Ramona could make it all the way to Clairmont Mesa. An involuntary shudder hit me when I found out they hadn't mis- spoke. The fire very easily could have made it to coast had the Santa Ana winds winds really been blowing. Plenty of fuel for it to follow the 52 freeway all the way to the 5 freeway and in to La Jolla. The fire line from one end to another must be 40 miles.

[Bronx]

From LA County


Firehawks fought through the fire-induced haze to battle blazes. Mud from water sources give drops a darkish hue.
http://www.sikorsky.com/Images/SAC_Sikorsky_Aircraft_Corporation/US-en/DSC_0885.jpg http://www.sikorsky.com/Images/SAC_Sikorsky_Aircraft_Corporation/US-en/DSC_0923.jpg Dropping 1,000 gals

[Autorotate]

I was talking to Lee Benson yesterday at LACoFD Air Ops and he said that the whole unit was laughing like heck yesterday as the media was saying that the black sludge coming out of the belly tank was some new sort of fire retardant that they were using.

They didnt have the heart to tell the reporter that it was just Mud. :p :p :D


:E

[zalt]

Interesting story being carried by Associated Press about the first helicopter pilot to see the patch of flames that would become the catastrophic Cedar Fire. Raises some potentially interesting discussion points:

"Pilot Dave Weldon told The Associated Press on Thursday he saw state firefighting planes on a nearby airstrip as he approached the mountains at 110 mph. He called down for help because his dispatcher had relayed reports of smoke in the area, but got no response.

"That was around 5:45 p.m. A few minutes later, he spotted smoke from the fire, then only about 50 yards on each side and not spreading.

"As he steadied his helicopter against wind gusts, Weldon's concern mounted. Just before landing, he called for backup, asking another county helicopter to speed to the scene with its 120-gallon water dump bucket. And he urged the dispatcher to contact state firefighters and renew his request for air tankers.

"The problem was that under state safety guidelines, no flights are allowed to go up into waning daylight. On Saturday, the cutoff was 5:36 p.m., said Capt. Ron Serabia, the CDF official who coordinates the 12 tankers and 10 helicopters now battling the 272,000-acre blaze."

See more at: http://www.9news.com/storyfull.aspx?storyid=20403

[Hoverman]

What's the latest?
Are the fires under control yet?

[vaqueroaero]

Well to the best of my knowledge the fires around the San Diego area are all but out. We have had some rain which has helped. Mother nature works in funny ways.
The area is still under restricted flight rules, and today it is deemed safe enough for El Presidente and Arnie to come and have a look at the aftermath.
For some shots of the fire take a look at
http://danmegna.com/CFire02/index.htm
I also have some shots taken by a guy who had (or rather still has, but it's now all black) 1000 acres just south of Palomar mountain. He stayed up there and saved his house and outbuildings, but everything else is toast. I haven't seen them yet, but apparently he has some great pictures of a Skycrane filling up out of his trout lake.

V's link is worth seeing - these are some of the shots.

http://danmegna.com/CFire02/untitled-009_std.jpg

http://danmegna.com/CFire02/untitled-019_std.jpg

http://danmegna.com/CFire02/untitled-018_std.jpg

[Heliport]

Thanks for the update vaqueroaero

We'd be interested to see the other photographs when you get them.

[Autorotate]

Giving credit where credits due the images that Vaqueroaero has posted are shot by one of my contributors, Dan Megna a pilot with the San Diego County Sheriffs ASTREA unit.

Make sure you visit his link as he has about twenty brilliant images and will be posting some more.

Autorotate.