Ansett - A Current Affair

[luna landing]

Does any know anything about a programme on Channel 9's A Current Affair tomorrow night concerning Ansett?

[EPIRB]

I heard from a mate second hand that it is to do with the administrators and how long it is taking for staff to get their entitlements. Should be interesting.

[Woomera]

Is the program's title "The Never Ending Story?" :yuk:

[faheel]

Good one Woomera:O

Yeah I cannot ever see a time whe the 2 Marks will want to stop milking the Ansett cow !

Also just when are we going to stop paying 5 bucks a flt or is it a sector ?/10 bucks a ticket to repay the goverment for the super levy for Ansett staff???
I have no argument with the staff getting their entitlements but I do begrudge forking over 10 bills every time I fly in Australia to help pay for it!

Hey there are many many buisiness's that go down the gurgler and some of the people employed in them lost everything and never got a handout from the goverment when their employers skipped with their super contributions!
Sorry if I hijacked the thread now off soapbox.

[Pole Vaulter]

Faheel,

The AN ticket levy was dropped months ago. but agree M & M will milk ever last cent they can out of the remains.

[Buster Hyman]

faheel.

As an Ansett refugee, I was greatful to get the initial redundancy payment from the Govt. but there shouldn't have been a tax to cover that payment. What is needed, is tighter controls on companies & how they operate, in regard to their responsibilities to their workers.

If the Govt. starts applying a tax for all redundant workers of any industry, this country will get nowhere. It was a dangerous precedent.

:(

[QF Librarian]

BH,
I am also an AN refugee, I was under the impression that the money gathered from the AN tax was never used for employee payments. It was just a convienient name that the government saw as a means of revenue.

The last time I talked to Mentha he said that the government had only given the administrator a loan to cover initial payments which had to subsequently be paid back from the sale of Ansett Assetts.

I may be wrong because you can't believe everything M & M tell you.:ugh:

[Buster Hyman]

No, you are not wrong at all...on any of your points!

[Croozin]

Wonder if they'll mention that yet another senior ex-AN pilot has just committed suicide?

[Australia2]

Faheel,

At least you now know the levy was not going to the AN folk, just another hidden tax, in the highest taxed nation in the world.

[Wirraway]

Crikey.com.au

22 October 2003

Fancy that. A Current Affair with a story, Ansett, that actually has a bit of punch and relevance (but don’t take that as an endorsement of the saccharine Ray Martin).

Readers will be aware that this writer has previously commented on the Ansett issue in the columns of Crikey. It is nice to see that at least one other media outlet has not forgotten the issue.

As a number of Ansett jets sit quietly rusting in Melbourne (you’d have to think they would be better off stored in Alice Springs or similar), the usual suspects continue to do very little. Or nothing at all.

Rather than rewrite what has already been noted, items by this writer are appended below. However, ACA, and all credit to them, have reminded people that, as badly operated as Ansett was (although no doubt we all fondly remember the levels of service that Ansett were renowned for), and while it had to fail, a large number of employees had legitimate superannuation funds which have been imperiled. A number of employees were on contracts which bound Ansett to certain payments, again imperiled. A number of other employees are owed monies, legally theirs, again imperiled.

You may well question the wisdom of Ansett’s contracting philosophy and its employment conditions but, for whatever reason, they prevailed and they were/are a legally binding obligation upon Ansett (and its administrators).

Now, over two years later, many of those monies are still owing. The impact on lives is still being felt and there has been precious little reform to the legal situation governing the real-world experience of employees, with monies in trust or obligated to them in terms of their ability to recover such, when a company goes bust.

ACA reminded us all of a few players.

Hear much from Sharan Burrows of Greg Combet on the issue? No. And you won’t. The airline and tourism sector have been woefully represented over the last two years by the union movement. A union movement that was very happy to pocket fees, dues and contributions but which disappeared very quickly after the industries fell apart in the way they did. That Burrows and Combet are still around suggest just how indifferent people are to the ACTU or just how weak the ACTU membership is that it would continue to employ such inadequate performers.

Hear much from Kim Beasley? Despite the grandstanding he undertook at the time of the collapse the man who has already lost an election, lost a leadership challenge and saddled Australia with a fleet of subs that don’t work, still has the effrontery to hang around in politics. There just is no shame. The Ansett issue was a convenient item with which to drive a political agenda and mouth off a few 30 second sound bites. No ticker, no backbone and no consistency.

Hear much from Tony Abbott. According to ACA his response: “It’s not my department anymore.” Not a bad rendition of Pilate really. And about as valid as well. The bloke washed his hands of his kid, what more do you expect of him?

Hear from John Anderson? No. Of course not. The brainless twit continues to oversee a National Party in rapid decline and is not trusted by PM&C to be put close to a microphone if there is something to say. Transport Minister? Please.

And from the PM himself? Not a thing. Well, who would want to keep reminding the punters about dopey Stan and the bailout on National Textiles.

From Mark Mentha and Mark Korda? Nope. Arnold Bloch Liebler made a quid out of it but boy, have the two Mark’s done well. Earning a fair kick for previous employer, the now no longer existent Andersen’s, these two have been very happy to allow the courts to take their sweet time in assessing the validity or otherwise of the Superannuation Fund claim. Millions of dollars have gone their way. Certainly they have worked hard to sort out the mess but at their rate of pay they’d want to be burning the midnight oil every night. Ansett liberated them from the old firm and set them up in KordaMentha (putting the brains of the outfit up front there). But still no real result for the thousands of disempowered, disenfranchised individuals who are waiting for their contractual obligations to be filled. (Lot’s of excuses though.)

Hear much from the government? No indeed. The ticket tax and repayments for Ansett have given the government a surplus amount of cash, over $200 million.

What sort of a country are we? We just bend over and take it every time. That these pricks in the government can tax the Australian public, come up with a surplus and then some lame scheme to put it into “tourism” (just how, when and where – we’d sure like to see the books on that one Treasurer) is ludicrous. That we all stand around and accept it with a shrug, knowing that they are all crooks, is a disgrace. And I am no better. I know they are crooks and I just shrug. (Memo to self: Don’t be so apathetic. Refer to Jefferson, tree of liberty, blood of tyrants and an occasional revolution. He had the right idea. Now that would keep the bastards honest).

Upshot is that the political attention span in Canberra on any issue of substance is short. But they know that the public attention span is shorter. As are indeed the memories.

Well, refresh your memory by referring to the comment below. The suspects are all still about.

===========================

[fruitloop]

Well said Wirraway.BTW has any-one heard of the poll result ??

[GoGirl]

The poll result:

97% Yes
3% No


Over 25 000 registered votes cast.


ACA was quick to point out it was by far the the largest result in favour of the affirmative of any poll they have ever conducted on the program.

[FL CH]

What was the poll about?

[TheNightOwl]

The poll was about - "should the money collected by the Government in the form of the Ansett ticket-tax be paid to the ex-Ansett workers"? Those are my words, but convey the intent of the poll to the best of my recollection.

I was staggered at the 97% in favour, it appears to me that our plight may not have been forgotten by the general public after all. Let's hope so, but I really can't see the Government having the political will to agree, just consider the precedent it would set. Any company in the same position could sit back and ask the government of the day to bail out its work-force, so I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope of a positive resolution.

HI, GG, how's life?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Torres]

NightOwl.

The Ansett ticket tax must eventually bite the Federal Government on the bum!

They collected the ticket tax - $300 plus mill from memory - in the name of the redundant Ansett staff.

M&M then claim the Federal financial assistance as a result of the tax, was a loan (or guarantee) only.

But despite the tax collected, the staff have not been paid.

So:
Where is the ticket tax now - in Government "consolidated revenue"?
Why haven't the staff been paid if the funds are guaranteed?
How many expensive lunches have M&M had this week?

[TheNightOwl]

I wish I had the answers to your questions, Torres, but you know as much as I. My understanding is that the Government provided the initial $340 million (?) to guarantee payment to employees of the "SEESA" outlay, i.e. outstanding Long-Service Leave, Annual Leave, any other outstanding monies and 8 weeks' Redundancy pay. This was in the form of a loan, to be paid back froom the sale of assets of the Company.
I understand that the money, of whatever amount - and I've heard ranging between $215 million to 250million - is to go to the tourism industry, not into Consolidated Revenue.
Staff have been paid the SEESA payment, any more is to be paid pro-rata from the final amount realised from the sale of assets. This is up in the air just now, until the Super people's appeal case is resolved. If they win, then the outstanding claim will be paid to NSP Buck by the Administrators which will decimate the amount available to pay out the rest of the AN debt to employees.
I'm NOT going to get into a slanging match about the probity of M&M, in spite of the delays I still believe they are honest men, not a popular view, I understand. If I am wrong, then they have to live with the knowledge of their dishonesty, but I don't believe they deserve the abuse hurled at them. To many, I don't doubt that sounds naive, but that's my slant on the situation.

I'm hopeful that the NSP Buck claim is denied, I loathe the idea of money available to come to us going to a company who wanted the income enough to take the Ground Staff Scheme from AMP, then want us to give them OUR money to pay THEIR debt to us.

Again, I reiterate that I believe the Government can't give M&M the income from the ticket tax to disburse to us, the precedent set could mean the end of responsibility by ANY company towards the entitlements of their staff in that they could cite this as a reason why the Government should pick up the tab. Little Johnnie won't wear that, nor will the voting public want to see their hard-earned going to prop up a system which would be seen to be flawed.

I honestly don't know, Torres, there are times I despair of being able to afford to live in my retirement due next year, other than a "hand-to-mouth" existence, and that's not a scenario I envisaged when I came to Australia 22 years ago and joined Ansett.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:{

[amos2]

"I honestly don't know, Torres, there are times I despair of being able to afford to live in my retirement due next year, other than a "hand-to-mouth" existence, and that's not a scenario I envisaged when I came to Australia 22 years ago and joined Ansett.
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl."


Lots of 89ers had the same sentiments 14 yrs ago Owl!

It didn't bother you then, why should it bother you now?

[TheNightOwl]

I suppose I should have expected this response from one such as you, amos, but it still saddens me that you feel you have to try to link 1989 with the demise of AN.
You are as aware as I that the decisions made by your peers at that time were of your choice, I and my colleagues played NO part in the debacle. I was ground staff, not Tech Crew nor a member of the AFAP, so please keep your sniping for the people who caused your problems, however you may perceive them. Remember, YOU made YOUR choices, I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end. God in Heaven, man, - I presume I have the sex correct - my department was the only one making money for the Company up to, and after, the collapse.

Now, please re-insert your objectionable mouth back into the fundamental orifice from which it emerged, resort to your usual state of ignorant bliss, and stay out of my life. :mad:

TheNightOwl.

[Uncle Festa]

amos2 - take a couple of panadol and have a good lie down.

Nightowl your comments regarding SEESA and that sad individual amos2 are spot on.

Whilst it won't do any of us ex AN employees any good, the Government needs to have a good hard look at the Corporations Law that applies to insolvency administrations.

The fact that a minority can hold a majority to ransom, whilst the pie that will be divided up amongst all employees continues to shrink speaks volumes about our inefficient system.

Two years have passed . . . will there be any pie left?

As each week passes, my expectations of any form of payment wane.

The money that has been eaten up with the costs of the administration and the disastrous Ansett Mark II/Tesna fiasco can (eventually) be measured. What can never be measured is the enormous pain and suffering that ex AN employees and their families have experienced over the past two years and no doubt many continue to suffer today.

[Skyhawk XP]

Wirraway and others may be surprised to hear there are still approx 250 staff in the engineering/maintenance department in Melbourne.

These staff are 'maintaining' the remaining fleet and parting out the B767-200 VH-RME.

[Buster Hyman]

TNO. Nice to see you posting again.

Sadly, with any voluntary poll, it all depends on who wants to call in.

Just like Australian Idol, if you are friends with or have something to do with one of the contestants, you'll vote your heart out. This is probably the case with this poll. Many staff & their many friends would have called in, I imagine, which would put such a slant on the voting. Of course, there is no way of confirming this, as it has no way of measuring the voters demographic.

Admittedly, it was a nice set of numbers, but I'd rather have seen this result from a poll of politicians!:(

[tenke]

Will some one kindly explain the intention/purpose of the Ansett ticket levy? (Sorry if this is old topic but it seems unjust however I look at it with what I know).

[Kaptin M]

"Wirraway and others may be surprised to hear there are still approx 250 staff in the engineering/maintenance department in Melbourne."

I was also told that the 737 Fleet manager purportedly said that he can still see himself on the payroll at what used to be Ansett for a very, very long time.

TNO, " I never wished the Company any harm nor brought it to the state it was in at the end." You certainly did help to put it where it is (and you where you are now) by training the *****.
Decisive action by other staff would have pulled Hawke, Abeles & Co back into line, and have brought some accountability and honesty back.
Too late to sob over it now though. :{

[amos2]

You once again show your selective memory ability when it suits you owl...

and totally miss the point again!

why do I bother?

But then again, for someone who completely embraced the blow ins,the opportunists and foreign imports, why am I not surprised!

[TheNightOwl]

The pond life is surfacing again, I see. Welcome back, KaptinM, you can join amos2 in your mutual attempts to hijack another thread in the pursuit of justification for your collective greed 14 years ago!

I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues, what I said to amos applies equally to you and any other '89-er who wishes to join.

".....and have brought some accountability and honesty back". I despair, Kap. I really do! Had it not been for the unadulterated greed of the collective '89-ers and their unsupportable claim, there would heve been no need to bring anyone back into line. Had your collective egos been tempered with a reasonable claim, the rest of us might have been a little more amenable in support of you, but you had to have your way, and sod the rest of the staff! Why is it that the "accountability and honesty" applies only to others, Kap, and not the the antics of your representative body? The AFAP and its members must take full responsibility for the instigation of the dispute, and Blind Freddy could have seen how a 30% claim would be received. Didn't matter, though, did it? You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed. One more thing, "ambit" claim, my arse!!

Now, I have no doubt that will open the flood-gates of vitriol, so I'm off to have a beer with dinner and the family. I wish you ALL well, even Kap and amos, believe it or not!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Kaptin M]

"your mutual attempts to hijack another thread.....it would seem to be, TNO that YOU have done a not too bad job all by yourself, in turning your last post into an '89fest, whilst decrying the right of reply to others.

" "ambit" claim, my arse!!" Yes, TNO an ambit claim, no different to ANY negotiation - whether it be buying a car, a house, applying for a new job, or negotiating renewals of existing employment.
It's a matter of fact, run-of-the-mill procedure.
So kiss your ass goodbye, if you can't understand the way in which employment renewals/reviews are conducted!

"I really don't give a rat's proverbial about your opinions of me and my colleagues." As a matter of fact, you DO.
I have no qualms in telling you that I didn't envy the position in which you were forcibly placed at the time.....lesser "men", such as the then RFM of BNE chose to "slip in the shower" and conveniently break his wrist, so that he was unavailable for flying duties at the time - simply because he didn't know which way the result would run, and he was feeding info (eg. who had signed up) to the AFAP, whilst remaining in the employ of Abeles.
However, the AFAP issued a pamphlet titled "Who will be next?" - indicating that if the pilots were picked off, the companies would follow through one by one, doing whatever they wanted.
Quite simply, AN management would then cherry pick the company - UNLESS the employees were willing to stand united.

They chose not to.

And the rest - as they say - is history. Including the jobs of some 17,000 other employees, your's included, TNO.

Undoubtedly, the length of time (some 8 months) that the pilots held out for (albeit an attempt to return to our original working conditions after approx. 1 month) was far in excess of what Hawke, Abeles (Oldmeadow), Strong, and Murdoch ever calculated, and is why Dixon of QF is now avoiding a direct confrontation with his pilots, as he tears QANTAS apart, brick by brick.

I fully appreciate your well though out posts, TNO - and respect you for them - in spite of some attempted cheap shots, eg. " You had to try to have your "eroded status" restored to boost your egos again, and reinstate the image of the pilot in the eyes of the great unwashed.", which do NOT accurately reflect the majority consenus of the then pilots, who were about as "unwashed" as everyone else - but rather professional envy.
We (pilots) are now/were then, ALL as much a part of the everyday average Aussie as you, or my mates who were loaders, check-in staff, crewing officers, ever were.
In fact, the BIGGEST problem for many pilots is trying to get over the perceived (by others) "complex" we have.
By the same token, our job requires us to have SOME token of responsibility and leadership, simply because of the dire consequences any oversights on our part have, that DIRECTLY affect our career paths.
As a new recruit to VB (one of the "Filthy Four"), but a long term Ansett employee cited, "Remember the four "F's". It is the Captain's job to be Fair, Firm, and Friendly - but never Familiar."
Hence, sometimes the apparent aloofness, or distancing. Not snobbery - simply protecting one's arse.
Which is where we started....and seems a good place to finish right now!

Kindest regards,

K.M. :ok:

[amos2]

...and a cold shower after the beer and dinner I would suggest owl...to calm you down! ;)

[Buster Hyman]

...Surely there's another F in there Kaptin???:} :ouch:

[Kaptin M]

A well percieved Miss Conception, Buster!!
In fact, I reckon the "strike rate" of the ground staff far exceeds that (perceived) of the flight crew. Ridgey Didge!!
Every time you looked sideways at a hostie, she was ALWAYS head-over-heels in love with a loader/check-in staff/crewing guy (gal...in some cases :uhoh: )!!
Invariably on overnights, the cabin crew were "organised" - and the cockpit crew drank cheap red wine to make the KY feel slipperier!! :{ because of the early morning pick-up!!

Wimmen!!! *****if ya do..****if ya don't!!

[Buster Hyman]

I can most definately assure you that the strike rate of this check-in/Loco/Ops/Crewing guy in regard to FA's was absolute zero!

Should've tried my luck with the girls I guess!!!!........:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

;)

[TheNightOwl]

A couple of points, amos - my take on your argument that I "embraced the blow-ins, etc., etc.", is that I was not embracing them, nor you nor anyone else. I was doing what I was paid to do, I had no argument with AN management then, unlike my stand on the pilots' position. I had NO reason to withdraw my labour, certainly not in support of what appeared to me to be an unwarranted and unsupportable claim, so I carried on at work. To this day, I believe I was doing right by my employer, although I don't expect agreement from any '89-er.
In respect of my need for a lie down, perhaps if you were possessed of the ability to express yourseld in the manner of KapM, I'd be less likely to fly off the handle. I can disagree and argue the point with him till the cows come home without losing my cool, but you have always had the ability to set my teeth on edge with your carping, sniping ways. Now, piss off and leave me alone.

KaptinM - this thread originated in a discussion about a TV program referring to AN's demise. My responses nowhere even mentioned '89, I was replying to Torres when amos reared his head with more carping about the dispute.
You can hide behind the term Ambit Claim as much as you want, old son, but I have the vivid recollection of having a coffee in the Sim Centre with an AFAP member who told me, in no uncertain terms, that there was nothing ambit about any of the elements of the claim and that, if any item was rejected, then the AFAP would bring AN to it's knees. He then went on to say that, if we (ground-staff) supported the AFAP in their claim, we would, in turn, be supported by them in any subsequent 30% claim for ourselves. When I asked him how he thought the company could afford such a scenario, I was told, "that's their bloody problem, mate, not ours"! End of any prospect of support from me.
I don't know what prompted your comment about the RFM of BNE, any more than I know him, but I feel that your comment merely ascribes to him motives which are coloured by your stance rather than reality, so I'll refrain from comment.

I've re-read my comment about "egos", and agree that you may have a point about a cheap shot. I apologise unreservedly, and hope your feelings weren't excessively bruised. However, please disabuse yourself of the notion that my comments were motivated by "professional envy". I've had this thrown at me, over the years, and I refute any such accusation. My working life in aviation has been a widely varied one and, with a few rare occasions, I do not regret never attempting to become a pilot. It seems to be the fall-back position of too many people that, whenever their image is denigrated in any way, it can only be from envy of a "wannabee". I sometimes think I'd like to have tried, but I had too many other interests to have the drive and determination to make the serious attempt. It's like playing golf - a great game, but requiring too much time and application at one thing to be any real good at it. To be truthful, I miss the days of my Mountain Rescue duties with the RAF far more than any missed opportunity to fly full-time. I did, however, fly gliders on weekends, when not in the mountains, so my life hasn't been totally wasted! I was in Simulation from 1968 until AN's demise, and had a ball in that field as a Visual Systems specialist, in aircraft ranging from Phantoms, Harriers, Jaguars to the seven machines run by AN, and I had the time of my life. It may come as a surprise, KAP, but for some life does not begin and end behind the control column. For over forty years I've understood the responsibilities of Tech crew, and accept the reasoning behind the four Fs, but I also remember the odd arrogant, up-himslf, "steely-eyed killer" prat, some of whom exist in the civilian aviation world as well as the military.

Unlike amos, I look forward to a civilised joust with you and your like, Kap, but I'll have no more to say in this thread, I'd sooner see it return to the original.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.

:ok:

[amos2]

Well, far be it for me to want to push anyone over the edge Owl, but crikey mate, I think you might be losing it!

[100_above]

Amos2,

Having known TNO for many many years I can assure you he has in no way lost it. In fact his recollections of what happened are still clear and very very consistent.

I endorse his comments regarding your sniping and carping ways.


Please take a long hard look at yourself so that in future your posts are constructive not destructive which also earns the ire of Woomera.


Thank you for your time


100_Above

[amos2]

...and thank you for your time and interest , junior!

PS: We're not taking this too seriously , are we? :cool:

[VB_Capt]

KM, a humorous response! Well done my boy. I agree though, the ground crew seemed to do a lot better than us.
When I was an Effo, I THOUGHT it was the captain who got the stray roots; whemn I got to be a captain, I KNEW it was the Effo!
As for KY, there are better lubes around....I''m told???

[rmm]

Looks like there maybe a follow up sometime this week,

http://www.vpmag.com/yssy/viewtopic.php?t=4665&sid=62048ebcb63111330cbda7185b24185b