How useful is the IMC?

[easyflyer]

Ladies/Gentlemen,

For those with an IMC, how do you rate the rating? Is it useful/do you use it/is it fun?

I'm considering doing it, but want to get a sense of the realities of the rating, and would appreciate any feedback.

[IO540]

It is extremely useful; every PPL who wants to fly around the UK should do it. It will transform your flying, in particular your ability to plan a flight in advance and then actually go, and will very likely put a stop to the 2-3 months which most PPLs spend not flying at all every winter.

Even though it is not valid (as a whole) outside the UK, it also entitles you to fly VMC on top in France which is quite useful a lot of the time.

The skills are of course useful anywhere, and are potentially an absolute lifesaver. IFR navigation is also the best way to do navigate anyway.

Etc.

Drawbacks: you do need reasonable currency to maintain the skills (no good flying 10 hours/year) and you do need a reasonable plane with the right avionics. In practice this may well mean (depending on what you can get your hands on locally) purchasing outright or buying into a syndicate.

[S-Works]

Undoubtably the best flying training you will do short of a full IR. Improves the quality and precicision of your flying no end. You really feel on top of the airplane all the time. You can actually use all of the knobs and guages in the aircraft properly!

It gives you a safe way out in poor conditions, rather than trying to skirt around under the murk at dangerous heights climb up, get steady and sort yourself out for a safe approach.

I agree with IOS, IFR navigation is by far the best way to navigate, and when flying VFR it gives you much greater situational awareness, there is no reason for an Instrument pilot ever to be lost.

With a night rating and an IMC it opens up a whole new world!

You need to maintain currency both with flying on the guages and doing approaches to be able to rely on it.

The only limitation being its only valid in the UK, for me a lot of foriegn travel mean an upgrade to IR but if I was just flying in the UK the IMC is perfect.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Most of the guys I know who've done have let it lapse. It's no doubt a good thing to do if you are going to be very current in using it in anger (but note the caveat below), and will be flying a suitably-equipped aeroplane.

But if you really want to go places reliably all year round you need an IR and a de-iced aeroplane - anything else is a halfway house, and serious IFR without all the skills and equiment is a fool's game.

If you want to improve your handling skills and really learn how to use the stick and rudder (as opposed to those knobs and displays), then get yourself some aeros training.

SSD

[S-Works]

What tosh! What is with aero's pilots that makes them believe that throwing an aircraft around the skys makes them a better pilot than the tourist?

Not everyone has the desire to be thrown around like a pea in a can as a form of enjoyment!

Most pilots fly aircraft to tour and an IMC rating helps them develop much great situational awareness and improves safety. They also develop much better awareness of what the aircraft is doing.

There is no reason to let an IMC rating lapse in the UK, it is easy to keep current for anyone who is doing average flying each year.

I only went from the IMC to IR to allow class A and non UK flight and there is nothing wrong with the IMC otherwise. Take it from me there is nothing different between the instrument skills on an IMC and the instrument skills on an IR. The "extras" on an IR are mostly focused on SIDS and STARS. You can either fly safely in IMC or you can't the time it takes to develop these skills is the same whether you do an IMC or an IR. The IMC is a MINIMUM of 15 hours of training the IR also has it the same MINIMUMS for instrument flight. I have known pilots take 30-40 hours to completed an IMC as I have known pilots take more than 100 hours to complete an IR.

Anyone who flies into icing conditions in an aircraft not equipped for it is a fool regardless of weather they are IMC or IR. There are far too many accidents caused by pilots flying in minimums and then getting caught out by lowering cloud. Just look at the people who have flown into the side of hills becuase they have been unable to climb to a safe alltitude.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Bose-x
What tosh! What is with aero's pilots that makes them believe that throwing an aircraft around the skys makes them a better pilot than the tourist?




Does all that 'head in the box watching the numbers' flying make your eyes go funny?

I wrote 'improve your handling skills', nothing about 'being a better pilot'.

Of course, you may think that improved skill with the flying controls rather than improved skill with the avionics controls is the same thing as being a better pilot. I won't argue with that, but it's not what I wrote :cool:

SSD

[S-Works]

Don't be so defensive. You are also guilty of pulling your own interpretation out of my post to your own end.

I merely stated that the IMC would teach you to use all of the knobs and buttons. I did not state that "flying" the avionics made you a better pilot just that at least after the course you would know how they all worked.

My statement prior to that stated that the Instrument training would make you sharper and more on top of the aircraft. This is a fact.

We can all choose ways of improving our handling skills. I know a guy who flies intermediate aeros in competitions who can't fly an aircraft in cloud for toffee.

I don't believe that a pilot who flies aeros is any better than a pilot who has chosen to master some other area of flying such as Instrument.

[Fly Stimulator]

Is this a new record? :rolleyes:

[big.al]

But in comparison to getting the basic PPL, how difficult is the IMC?

I have started reading the Trevor Thom vol. 5, which I'm told is by far the best text for instrument flying (although I'm also told it goes into much more detail than is required for the IMC). I'm not really studying the book yet and I have done no IMC training, but from the book alone it does seem quite complicated. Is this the case?

[Evo]

The hard thing about the IMC is staying ahead of the aeroplane IMHO. Once I got a reasonable scan going I didn't find it hard to fly on instruments, but workload management is difficult. Flying an approach you're flying the aeroplane, identing things, talking to ATC (and fiddling with the radio when you're told to contact someone else), looking at the approach plate, watching MDH/MDA and doing pre-landing checks (...but not always in that order :) ). You've got to stay organized and ahead, otherwise things rapidly go wrong.

[Fly Stimulator]

big.al,
This thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84080) includes quite a lot of comments from several of us who were doing IMCs at the time. It should give you an idea of the level of difficulty in relation to the PPL, and how it feels to do the course.

In a nutshell, as with learning anything new, it seems quite challenging at the start but begins to fall into place as you practice.

I don't think any competent PPL-holder would be unable to achieve the IMC.

[Justiciar]

There is nothing wrong with the Thom book and is virtually the only book to cover the IMC course, except the IMC Confuser, which you should also get a copy of. The only thing in Thom not directly relevant is the section on SIDs, which you do not need at IMC level. If you want something else to help you get your head around ADFs and which way the needle should go then get Martin Cass' book "VOR, ADF and RMI". Read Thom's book in small chunks as you go through the course. It will compliment the flight training and as you get stuck in you will find it facinating.

comparison to getting the basic PPL, how difficult is the IMC

Its only hard in the sense that you learn much more precise flying. Altitude + or - 100 feet, heading + or - 10 degrees; controlling rate of descent to 100 feet a minute. A one hour lesson is a good workout.

[Aussie Andy]

Is this a new record Was thinking same, i.e. "short-fuse" record! ;) Seems to have calmed down since :cool:

[Spikeee]

I've just gained my PPL at the moment and barely have an hour since.

Is it worth getting some more experience with VFR flying before the IMC?

Also, what are the chances of completing it in the 15hours(+a few in the sim)?

I know thats bit of a 'how longs a piece of string' question, but just generally...

cheers

[Fly Stimulator]

My advice would be to give yourself a bit of a break from flying under instruction and just get some hours of pure enjoyment and practice first.

The IMC requires you to fly fairly precisely and it will help you a lot if you have got more comfortable with the aircraft by the time you start. The closer that the basic handling (and RT for that matter) becomes to second nature the more mental capacity you'll have available for the IMC work. I had 300+ hours when I started mine and I found I was working hard. If I'd only had 50 or 60 it would have been a lot harder I'm sure.

People can and do successfully do the IMC very soon after their PPL, but unless you have a pressing reason to do so I'd relax a little and just enjoy the freedom to fly for a while before doing more formal training.

[Evo]

I started mine with about 60 hours. Currently have done 13 hours of the IMC (plus loads on RANT :O - no point in learning at £2 per minute when you don't need to :ok: ), would have finished in 15 hours no problems had I managed to fit the test in before an enforced two month break (first instructor away, then me) - I expect it will take a couple of extra hours to get back into the swing of it. I found it hard at first (as Fly knows :) ) then about eight hours in it all clicked :)


People can and do successfully do the IMC very soon after their PPL, but unless you have a pressing reason to do so I'd relax a little and just enjoy the freedom to fly for a while before doing more formal training.


I kind of agree, but I managed to give myself a minor scare under a lowering cloudbase not long after the PPL and decided to do it. Well worth it IMHO, because the PPL IF training isn't a whole lot of use. A 180 on instruments is all very well, but it's no use if the cloud is coming down behind you too...

[IO540]

I think the IMC training is going to be a lot easier if the pilot has say 20-30 hrs minimum ON TYPE, solo on decent cross-country flights, before starting the training.

Re Trevor Thom Book 5, I think this is not a good book! It reads as if different bits were written by different people; it's quite disjointed, and some of the diagrams in my copy did not make sense to me or to anyone else (probably errors).

The best single thing is to find an instructor who actually flies to places, IFR. VERY few of them about! I would stay well away from those instructors who just have a very old IMC Rating and have rarely been past the folds in their chart. They can teach the bare syllabus OK, and will spend £1000s of your money doing NDB holds for hour after hour to perfection while you sweat, but the end result will be of little use to someone actually wanting to use it (one could make a similar comment about a PPL taught by instructors who never go anywhere...)

Yes, there are many expired IMCR pilots about. I suspect this is because most of them never realised they will need to maintain current, and get a suitable plane. Most school planes are not suitable for real IFR flight; a lot of the avionics don't work properly even if they appear to work.

[big.al]

IO540 -

The best single thing is to find an instructor who actually flies to places, IFR. VERY few of them about!

I'm lucky in that respect. Our group C172 is very well equipped for IFR flight and has recently been transferred to Public Cat. CofA. This means that a member of our group (one of the few instructors in the country who is qualified to instruct other instructors, as well as being a corporate pilot and CFI at a major flying school) can give me the flight training on our own aircraft, and he'll only charge half-price for his time.:ok: Stroke of luck that.

I agree that the Thom vol. 5 does seem a little disjointed but perhaps it will fall into place when I start to study it in earnest and then actually begin the IMC training and can relate theory to practice.