New Helicopter For Sar Force

[A D ENUFF]

S92, NH 90, Refurbished Sea Kings ?????

Waddya reckon........................surely not the latest on offer from Wastelands.

[ZH875]

I hear there are a few Wessex helicopters available :D, only recently retired, so have been well (?) looked after for some thirty or so years, they may be suitable for SAR work ;) they may even be reasonably priced!!

[force_ale]

The Wessex idea would never work. The cabin is far to big, you can get more than one prone causulty in it, you would need those awful military types to fix them and it hasn't got any toys for the pilots to play with as they laugh at the hunched up crewman with bad knees.
Griffins are the way forward.:confused:

[Jackonicko]

Surely the SAR role is (the?) one area in which the EH101 would be pretty good?

[Flip Flop Flyer]

The RDAF had a look at the NH90, S92 and EH101 for SAR duties. They selected the EH101. The NH90 was too small and the S92 would not be available in time. EH101s are replacing Sea Kings as of early next year, when the first of 14 odd machines will be delivered.

The Canadians seems to be quite fond of their EH101 for SAR duties, especially praising it's long-range capabilities.

[PTT]

They are, indeed, odd machines`:)

[Arctic Tern]

Boys.
Who said that the replacement for the Sea King had to be another helicopter? In fact, I understand the team that deals with this in the House of Glass has been forbidden from talking about platform and is encouraged to talk about capability. Roll-out the airship, the MPA and the Fast Patrol Boat. Perhaps we will get shiny red boats like on Bay Watch - hope all the crews look like Yasmin Bleeth!
Ref the Canadian Cormorant, anyone spoken to the rearcrew. I heard that they weren't exactly jumping with joy about the cabin layout. Usual Canadian problem of having pilots decide on the spec for rear crew equipment.
While we are talking SAR helos. I noticed a number of jealous looking guys from Agusta Westland at Helitech as the admiring crowds were crawling all over the Bristows SAR Super Puma and the AB139. Not to mention the mighty impressive S92. Not that any decision will have anything to do with capability. I suspect the local MP for Yeovilton and Sherborne will be actively lobbying for Agusta Westland !! Oops, sorry Mr Moderator, getting near the knuckle here.:D

[TURNBULL]

Did somebody say they had actually found a role for the L(arge)SH aircraft currently languishing at RAF Benson? At long last!

[M134]

Arctic Tern

Westlands listening to anyone is news to me!

:D

[keepin it in trim]

The 101 is a great pilots toy, however as a winching platform I have my doubts. Westlands were offered the benefit of advice from some pretty experienced SAR rearcrew and as usual westlands knew best.... which is why the door is way too far back, a problem made worse by the intense downwash which will probably require a higher winching height, and the winch on the canadian machines is in completely the wrong place in the door.

A problem westlands have had to address for the european orders ( to win them) by fitting a second hoist at the front of the door to allow for the high nose attitude in the hover, which was putting the cable too close to the stub during winching. I am led to believe that the canadians would very much like this mod but it involves the aircraft being returned to the factory to have additional structural strengthening inserted in the airframe in this position.

Further info says the aircraft is a pretty hard ride in turbulent mountain conditions. It is also VERY expensive in comparison with the competition.

However, despite these problems it possesses one feature which practically guarantees its purchase by MoD, down the back somewhere it has a little plate on the airframe with the words "invented and built here" inscribed on it. Enjoy it team.

[force_ale]

BUY BELL 412.
THERE GREAT!!:yuk:

[A D ENUFF]

Jackonocko....... Whilst the 412 is a very capable aircraft i'm just wondering where ya gonna put your 15 wet and bedraggled fishermen after you've just plucked them out of the ocean 200 miles out. !!!!

FFF.....A good friend of a friend has just returned from a tour with the Canadians and says that although they are pleased with the long range capabilities of the 101 they openly admit that for a SAR aircraft it is SERIOUSLY flawed in many other areas. (Dont believe everything you read in the glossy helicopter magazines)
As far as the 101's replacing the Sea King early next year i'm led to believe that the SAR aircraft are being extended to 2013. Or are you talking about the Navy Commando Mk 4's.

Obviously i'm playing devils advocate here but perhaps there's a case for a TWO aircraft SAR force.

Comments please !!

[Flip Flop Flyer]

Oh I'm sure that the glossy magazines only relate the glossy news, so to speak.

However, to my knowledge the RDAF (as in Royal Danish Air Force) does not operate any "Commando" SeaKings. Could be wrong though, would hardly be the first time.

[TURNBULL]

A D NUFF

A two aircraft fleet would be a possiblity, but rumour on the street has it that the range of the EHI 01 means that the UK could be covered from only 3 bases - what a cost saving! I don't see the existing SKMk 3/3A fleet carrying on into the 2013's as most of them are knackered already - or is Wastelands proposing an end-of-life update?

[keepin it in trim]

The covering the UK from 3 bases idea sounds attractive - if you are an accountant - but getting the speed of response or generating the assets for multiple incidents spread across the whole coverage area is problematic.

Sorry, my mistake, for a moment there I forgot that this kind of decision is all about bean counting and politics and has little to do with what the people at the coal face ( and these guys are not dummies ) actually think would do a good job.

[TURNBULL]

Trim,

Spot on, like many other good ideas!

[detgnome]

Whilst accepting that only having 3 bases would lead to problems reacting to large incidents, is it not the idea to have additional bases around the country with smaller (ie cheaper) ac to fill in the capability gaps and response times? Obviously the Griffin has it's problems but as already mentioned the Augusta Bell seems to have a bigger cabin and still have all the toys to keep the pilots happy. It probably isn't restricted in pitch and roll as well!

[Cabe LeCutter]

Greetings

I think that we have solved the low cabin height on the Griffin. In future all rearcrew will be 5 ft, 5 ft tall and 5 ft round. If we make them spineless as well, there is no problem with injured backs on cabin entry.

Heads down, look out for the flack.:(

[STANDTO]

SOD THE EXPENSE

SUPER
JOLLY
GREEN
GIANT

(OR SEA STALLION)

[Arclite01]

Could not agree more.

The accountants are not the guys in the water in an immersion suit or 1 man dingy trying to stay alive while the SAR chopper is flying the extra 250 miles+ is he.......

Those blokes make me so angry - knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing.........

I too am a great fan of the Super Jolly Green in the SAR role......

[hairyclameater]

The Danes don't operate Sea Kings at all!!! They have been one of the few miltary operators of the Sikorsky S61 for over 2 decades. Ok at the end of the day its a Sea King but lets be accurate!
:cool:

[Straight Up Again]

Keepin It In Trim – The hoist on the 101 is in a crap position on the RN and RAF variant. You can get the cable to scrape down the sponson and aircraft side quite nicely if you don’t pay attention (ie fight the cable), but I thought the Canadians ditched the silly swing out hydraulic hoist and had twin electric hoists mounted over the middle of the door? This may have changed from last time I heard anything about it.

I know their was a mod to make the swing out hoist come out and round further, and it had a bracing strut of some description, but I left before it got fitted. Bet you still couldn’t get a stretcher in though. You could also use the wheel as a hand hold to stop yourself spinning, which is handy if your trying to get the stretcher around the sponson and in through the door.

The only thing I ever lifted was big bags of lead shot, and that was difficult enough with the positioning of door/sponson/hoist, I wouldn't like to try it with a live bod on the end.

[KPax]

The Griffin appears to be a success in Akr however it was careless of the people at Valley to lose one of their skids whilst airborne. If you want wheels then just ask.:hmm:

[OOPS 78]

Reading between the lines and looking from the situation from one end of the med, I would suggest that the Griffin in Cyprus is far from a success. It no doubt will be, but it will take a couple of years and no doubt a shed load of cash to sort it out, and we only have the aircraft for 5 years anyway.

as far as I understand you cannot get 2 ejectee casualties on board in stretchers and then work on them for 1/2 hour that would be required if collecting someone from the furthest point that the fast jets operate. Surely that makes the aircraft either:

a: unsuitable for SAR as the RAF practise it.

b: unsuitable for purpose at the moment and therefore has no business holding aSAR standby until these issues have been resolved.

I guess, like the Sea King Force, once you start living with it then you will be stuck with it for many years to come.

Fortunately for the SARF the MRT stretchers will not fit in the aircraft anyway, so it will be F*** all use over here.

[The Ferret]

As somebody who was recently winched out of the sea (as part of a drill) by a Merlin helicopter I can vouch that it was not at all a pleasant experience. I was faced with a vicious sea chop that almost upturned me a few times, I could not keep my eyes open against the 150mph spray and it as the aircraft was winching from such a high hover (using the auto hover from the back door) it took 15 minutes to eventually snare me in the strop!

The Merlin has a great number of attributes that are being succesfully used across the SH and HM Fleet, but it does have shortfalls as a SAR aircraft, despite the claimed success of Cormorant! The requirements for the future SAR aircraft need to be carefully crafted - 2 different aircraft types may well be the answer but support costs must increase. It will no doubt be an interesting debate!:oh: :oh: :oh:

[Cabe LeCutter]

Dear OOPs

Don't know where you got your information about the Griffin from, but you are a little acerbic for one with so little fact and so much rumour. Speak to the guys on the Sqn and get the facts, it isn't a perfect solution but it could have been an awful lot worse. You can pick up 2 ejectees and work on them, but not as well as in some of the other platforms in service. You pays your money and put up with the restrictions. You don't get a Rolls Royce solution for Nissan prices.

Heads down, look out for the flack.:cool:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Chatting to 84 Sqn boys a few weeks ago I hear that 30% of the below stairs bods are off sick with back complaints.

With an attrition rate like that, they'll be vacancies for stop-gap detachees in no time at all.

Just a rumour, but from the horse's mouth.

[Straight Up Again]

Ferret - I can also vouch for the strength of downdraft, having had to move from well outside the downwash to directly underneath for ext PA testing, a/c in 60 ft hover. It gets very difficult to walk forwards, almost to the point of being impossible. But, much like a hurricane, it gets suddenly easier near the underneath. I have also watched others try to do this (from the comfort of looking through the RAF variant floor), so it wasn't just me being lardy and unfit.

Did they manage to get you in without banging into the sponson, or using the wheel as a handy support?

I know wind speed measurements in the downwash were done, but haven't got a clue what the results were.

[force_ale]

How did the 84 guys enjoy their little trip to the desert? I heard they had a "cracking" time.
Or are those stories just rumours too?
:p

[donald stott]

This new rotary ac, is it under the title SABR (Support Amphibious Battlefield Rotorcraft) replacing Sea King and Puma?

[zalt]

In the last public statement from the UK SAR Helicopter Harmonisation and Procurement Steering Group in July 2002 was that:

"To date, no decision has been made on whether the MCA and MoD will jointly acquire a future SAR capability;
To date, no decision has been made on whether PFI or conventional acquisition is more appropriate for the procurement of the future UK SAR capability."

According to the DPA web site:
"PFI remains an option for Training and all, or part, of the SAR requirement."

[The Ferret]

Straight up Again - Amazingly they did manage to get me into the cabin without smashing me into either the sponson or the wheels - maybe it would have been different if there were twin wheels on this particular variant but don't get me started on that one! There was alot of fending off though and it was not a particularly confortable ride as the strop had not been properly placed in the small of my back before lifting - probably due to the massive amount of spray preventing good vision! At least I live to tell the tale!:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: