What Gps Should I Get?

[MR TEDDY]

Having recently passed my PPL, I would like to consider getting a GPS. I't looks like the Garmin III Pilot is the cheapest and suits my budget, however at a push, dearer choices look like the Garmin GPSMAP 196 and the Skyforce Skymap II. I can't afford a colour version of any model.

I would preferably like the information displayed by the unit to include: Extended Runway Centre Lines; Runway Details; Details of current position - e.g. 4.5 NNE of Bembridge; Railway Lines. I also notice that the Skymap has Turning Point Arrival and Marker Annunciation which sound like a very good feature.

I would be grateful for any advise on GPS's anyone might have.

Thanks.

Mr Teddy.

[easyflyer]

I've got an IPAQ thru work and note you can get a "Navman" attachment thru Transair for £350...anyone use these and can rate them, or am I best off just going for a Garmin III for £400?????

Input gratefully received, and Mr. Teddy - sorry for partially diverting your post!

ef

PS. Commercial stores do the GPS bracket much cheaper than Transair - is it just the map software that's aviation specific, or is there something in the bracket??

[Mr Wolfie]

easyflyer-

I have an Ipaq with a Navman GPS jacket that I use in the car (with the Smart Trip mapping software it gives you turn by turn directions as who drive- and very good it is too).

However, it only has an aerial built into the jacket itself and no connector for an external aerial. Used in a car (close to steeply raked front window, and with sunroof and side windows), it takes a long time to get its first fix, but once found it tends to keep a reasonable signal. Go through a tunnel or a major built up area and it loses the signal and again takes a little while to receive a signal from enough sats to provide a fix.

Aviation use? I haven't tried it yet, but I suspect that in the high wing Cessnas that I fly, the wings are going to obscure a lot of sats. A low wing Piper would probably have more chance. In something like a T67 Firefly, Vans, or anything else with a big bubble canopy, I should think it would work fine.

The jacket that is sold by Transair will be a standard Navman jacket (model 3000 or 3400 for an Ipaq). It is just the Memory Map CAA software that turns it into an "aviation unit."

Mr. W

PS - There are always loads of Navman jackets (around £150) and other Ipaq related GPS stuff on ebay for sale.

[Mike Cross]

I have looked at the Memory Map scanned charts. Downsides appear to me to be that the chart is always North Up whereas I prefer Track Up on my chart. That way I am in the centre and my desired track is straight up the window, making it easy for my ageing brain to work out whether I need to turn right or left to get back where I should be.

The other downside is the cost of updating the chart, around £50 a throw if my memory serves.

Personally I use a Magellan GPS315 with the aviation database. Cheap as chips and does exactly what I want.

Mike

Mike

[S-Works]

I bought a 295 Colour originally and swapped it for a 196. The 196 is awesome, extended centre lines, turn point coordination, database, Instrument approaches(yes even in a VFR unit!) the works. I have mine linked to my FuelScan Computer as well and so I even get fuel required, remaining etc data.

When flying Intsrument approaches I just put the approach in the unit and fly the normal gauages with the GPS as a sanity check. It also makes non precision approaches look very slick as you can use the extended centre line to exit your base turn!!

I update the database once a month and it costs me around £160 per year for the subscription service. You can update it as often or as little as you like. I fly 300 hrs a year so it pays to keep it updated for me.

The kit comes with a number of different mounting options including a yoke mount and dash mount as well as power cable. It also comes with an external antenna with suction cups.

I also have the 128mb data cartridge with the streetmap on it which allows turn by turn routing to house number and postcode level and even has a database of pubs, garages and hotels etc that is very comprehensive. I use it in my card all the time.

You can't beat the 196!

[Kirstey]

Magellan 310 for me!

£100. I have to program my own waypoints in, but it tells me how far away, in which direction stuff is. And it tells me which way I'm going and how fast. Never had a problem getting a signal lock. And isn't so flash I forget my other nav techniques.

maybe I'm just as tight as a Nun's fanny tho!

[Fly Stimulator]

Steve,

See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70598) from last year too.

My comment in it about the Garmin databases not showing MATZ stubs etc is no longer relevant - Garmin fixed that problem earlier this year.

I still love my 196! :ok:

[Barshifter]

Mr Teddy

Buy the best one you can afford.The good ones have already been mentioned on here.Personally I have the 111 pilot,and cant fault it.( yet!).


Barshifter

[flyingwysiwyg]

FWIW,

I have a GPS III Pilot, and have no complaints at all. :ok:

F - Wyg

[NinjaBill]

If you are flying with a battery powered gps, then you probably want to consider what the battery life is like aswell.

I get about 10 hours from my pilot III, and replace the batteries when they get to 1/4 full. I cant comment on the battery life of the other units, since i dont have them, but it is good in the pilot III

NB

[S-Works]

Oh yes, I forgot that bit. I get around 20hrs from the 196. You can also amend the satelite scan rate from 1 per second to 1 every 3 seconds which gives a 3rd more battery time.

I run mine from the "mains" in my a/c and cigar lighter where I can find one in rentals. Cigar cable comes with it.

[MR TEDDY]

Crumbs, what a lot of responses in such a short space of time!

Thanks for all the info so far folks. It looks like the 196 is getting the biggest backing at the moment. Can any of you tell me if it has the position reporting text which is something I would really like?

Cheers,
Mr Teddy.

[S-Works]

No, you would something like the Skyforce locator for that or a panel mount GPS.

I tend to give my position as a DME/Radial from a VOR. Information which can be gained instantly from the NRST button on the 196. (or from the steam guages!)

[IO540]

I have flown about 70 hrs with a leg-strapped Skymap 2. It runs for 4hrs from non-rechargeable AA batteries, or a lot more from an external battery pack. It has a permanent location text e.g. "3.4NM NNW of Southampton" but you cannot fix the reference for that text (and use it as a "DME"); it just picks up the nearest item from its database (but you can qualify the category in the setup menu).

The Skymap 2 is the only GPS I know of which is really suitable for leg mounting; this may be relevant if you are renting.

I used to program it with Navbox and then it's really great.

[A and C]

Dont get a GPS you all ready have a map and a stopwatch this is all you need for VFR navigation.

Save the money and spend it on flying a few more X-C hours this will make you a much better pilot than if these very good GPS,s lull you into a faulse sence of security and errode your hard won skills as a pilot before the ink is dry on your licence.

[MR TEDDY]

.....Dont get a GPS you all ready have a map and a stopwatch this is all you need for VFR navigation.....

Thanks for your comments A & C. I fully appreciate what you are saying.

My reason for considering a GPS is so that I have a back up to my hard won skills. I have no intention of using the GPS as a primary navigational aid, but simply as an added safety feature. For example, I feel that being able to get an indication of an extended runway centre line on an approach to an airfield can only enhance safety. Of course, I will already know the field is going to be there, and I will know in my minds eye where the centre line should be, I see the GPS as simply helping me to be precisely accurate. Similarly, I would like to be able to give very accurate position information to FIS and LARS services. I can already tell them approximately where I am, but I see the possibility of being spot on accurate as a significant improvement over dead reckoning.

Once again, I cannot say strongly enough that after expending much blood, sweat and tears, not to mention piles of cash on honing my navigation skills (watching myself almost busting Luton airspace in the 'Flying School' documentary still makes the hairs on my neck stand up) I have no intention of throwing that all away and simply chancing it with an electronic device that could pack up on me at any moment.

Thanks again for your kind advice.

Regards,
Mr Teddy.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I have the 111 pilot,and cant fault it.( yet!).

I'd have said the same up until last month, when my less-than-two-year-old 'Pilot 111' packed up. Garmin want serious money to replace it (it can't be repaired, apparently). I think an expensive chunk of solid state electronics which has led a cossetted life, as mine had, should last longer than that.

SSD

STOP PRESS!!

As per my 'dead in < 2 years' post, free replacement Pilot 111 arrrived today ;)

[bar shaker]

Another resounding vote for the 196. Its the dogs genitalia of GPS :D

Battery life... 10 times longer than a mate's 295 (colour screens eat batteries)

Ease of use... BIG screen, easy to use functions.

Mounting... comes with mounts for the yoke and a dashtop mount for the car. Remote aerial included. More mounts available as options.

Data card... get Map Source and at least 64meg and have turn by turn road navigation too.

I can't praise it enough.

[IO540]

Dont get a GPS you all ready have a map and a stopwatch this is all you need for VFR navigation.

Let's not go down this road again please! How many PPLs chuck away their license before it even comes up for its first renewal? Something like 90-95%. There are various reasons for this but a big one is that most of them are intelligent enough to realise they cannot get about UK airspace on the bit of string and a stopwatch which they've been taught to use.

There is nothing wrong with a GPS. A straight PPL (flying in VMC) can fly the plog visually while using the GPS for added accuracy, situational awareness, and general confidence that he is where he expects to be.

There are morons who don't do any planning and fly with a GPS but there will always be morons around. There are plenty of morons who run their tanks dry, etc. The only difference between a pilot who got lost doing things the "proper" way, and a pilot who got lost with a GPS, is that the former one might have been doing his best as he was trained, whereas the latter one must have made some really stupid cockup.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I don't post here very often, but I can not just ignore anyone giving bad advice.

GPS is to this point in time the most accurate and reliable navigation aid we have.

If you can afford to fly you can afford to have the best device to accurately fly with.

No one has suggested that you depend entirely on your GPS when navigating, however to suggest that only dead reckoning and map reading is the best way to get from A to B is living in the stone age.....

Chuck Ellsworth

[MR TEDDY]

.......No one has suggested that you depend entirely on your GPS when navigating, however to suggest that only dead reckoning and map reading is the best way to get from A to B is living in the stone age..... Chuck Ellsworth

Chuck, I'm not sure if your comments were directed at me or not. However, for the avoidance of doubt, I am not suggesting that only dead reckoning and map reading is the best way to get from A to B. What I am saying is that after all the hard studying I have put into learning the analogue method of navigation, I am not suddenly going to dump it all for a digital aid. On the contrary, I want to use a digital aid to compliment and enhance my analogue navigation skills.

I hope this clarifies my intentions.

Mr Teddy.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Mr. Teddy:

It was the " all you need is a map and a stopwatch " comment that I disagree with.

We should use all avaliable aids to ensure we fly safely.

The GPS is the best device we have at this point in time to determine spatial awareness, therefore it is my beliefe that if you can get one it makes you a more safe pilot.

Hope that clarifies my comment. :D

Oh' by the way the Garman 111 is one of the best on the market.

Chuck

[strafer]

Absolutely nothing to do with your thread Mr Ted, but what Flying school was it in the documentary and do you know if it's going to be repeated?

[Kolibear]

Congratulation on getting your PPL - hope to meet you at a Fly-In soon.

I'm firmly in the 'keep-it-simple' cam p on GPSs (GPii?). I have Magellan which acts like a combined VOR/DME. You put in a waypoint & it tells you bearing, ground speed, distance to run, time to go etc.. It won't tell you anything else, which means you have to look at the map and flight guide.

[jackyboy]

I have a Pilot III which I find fine. Can't comment on others as it is the only one I have used. I would have gone for the 196 if my budget/wife would have allowed it.

A friend is interested in getting one and contacted the pilot shop(name escapes me at the moment) at Oxford airfield. They not only have a good selection but offered to take him up to try them out. He hasn't taken them up on their offer yet, but that's what I call service.

Found it.........

AFE who are at Oxford Airport.

www.afeonline.com

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Another suggestion on which GPS to buy.

I have just up graded to the new ipac 2210 with bluetooth and a socket wireless GPS antenna.

I am more than pleased with how well these two units work, the wireless antenna will transmit to the ipac anywhere within thirty or more feet.

Look at this system using Anywheremap for the aviation software.

I have been using Anywheremap ever since it came on the market and it is awesome.

Now that the wireless antenna is availiable it is ever better.

The bottom line is any GPS will work far more accurate than any nav equipment that your airplane has in the panel.

Chuck

[Timothy]

Mr Teddy

I don't think that you mentioned whether you intend to buy an aircraft.

If you do, a properly plumbed in GPS is infinitely superior to anything that relies on either a built in or suction cup aerial, and of course doesn't depend on batteries.

If you go the plumbed in route the best, IMO are, in order, 530, 430, Skymap, Garmin 155 range.

W

[IO540]

WCollins

Perhaps, a KMD150 is a good choice for a mainly-VFR aircraft. It is basically a panel mount version of the Skymap 3 and is a lot neater in the panel, as a slightly higher cost.

I believe it retains the RS232 port for flight plan upload (from e.g. Navbox) and that's definitely worth having. None of the IFR-approved units have this option (an FAA requirement) so flight plan entry involves a lot of knob twiddling.... (Ive got a KLN94B)

[MR TEDDY]

Thanks to everyone for the responses to my original request. I am amazed with the speed and quality of all your comments. You have all certainly given me plenty of food for thought!

Could I now ask if anyone can tell me if I purchase a GPS in the US or Canada, will it work in the UK and display exactly the same information as if I had purchased the unit in the UK? The prices quoted in North America are significantly beating those in the UK and with the £ v $CDN some of them are a steal.


Now a couple of personal notes:

Chuck Ellsworth - Thanks for the clarification

Kolibear - 'Congratulation on getting your PPL - hope to meet you at a Fly-In soon' ...... Thank you for your kind comments.

strafer - 'Absolutely nothing to do with your thread Mr Ted, but what Flying school was it in the documentary and do you know if it's going to be repeated?' ..... The flying school is Wycombe Air Centre at Booker. I am not aware of plans to repeat the documentary at this time, however WAC do have a copy of the video which is available for viewing in their 'lounge'.


Regards,
Mr Teddy

[Evo]

Could I now ask if anyone can tell me if I purchase a GPS in the US or Canada, will it work in the UK and display exactly the same information as if I had purchased the unit in the UK?


Will it work? Yes. Will it be exactly the same? No.

Out of the box there will be differences in the database used by the GPS. Unsurprisingly an American GPS will contain a USA database, not a UK database, so UK data will be limited or non-existent. Depending on the model an upgrade may or may not fix this - I believe that with some models it is not possible to change all of the map data, just the aviation content.

[vindaloo]

I was given a Garmin Etrex (normally costs around £120). Athough it is intended for hikers, it works perfectly well in the air, and once you've put your waypoints in, it works just like an ADF & DME. Well worth considering for those on a tight budget.

[S-Works]

You can change the database in the 196 easily. I bought mine in the UK and update the database everymonth on the subscription service. On a flying trip to the US last week I just downloaded the US database and uploaded it to the unit. On returning to the UK just put the Europe one back in.

There is not enough room in the memory to store more than one region unfortunatly.

Another great reason for getting a 196!!

[IO540]

vindaloo

Entering user waypoints into a GPS is THE way to get into trouble. I think the majority of people who have got lost with a GPS have done with with these "camping shop" units, often by transposing some of the lat/long digits when entering user waypoints.

Absolutely everybody makes mistakes, so (like every other aspect of quality control) not getting lost is mostly about following procedures which expose gross errors. For example if using GPS for primary navigation (the best way to use it) one tracks a VOR at the same time (whenever possible, also with DME). The gross error modes differ between these systems and consequently it is exceedingly hard to get lost with this type of IFR navigation.

Spending a few hours' flying money on a proper aviation GPS which should last years is well worth doing.

[Kirstey]

IFO540

I agree (the East/West thing is a right p1sser living so close to the meridian!!). However for backup VFR it's absolutly fine. I always plog manually. Check the GPS route marries up to this and use Navaids. Naturally, I always like to know where I am on the map as well.

[Oscar Duece]

Anyone tried the Lowrance airmap 100/300/500 or are they only found stateside.

[BayAreaLondoner]

I recently bought one of these. You can read about it here (http://www.groovelicious.org/mt/david/archives/000247.html)
Lowrance do sell an International Jeppesen database on an SD card. A one off update costs $35, annual sub is $299.
The mapping software they supply (for land nav) is only US as far as I can tell.

[LowNSlow]

I'd recommend a Garmin Pilot III with an ariel that sticks onto the windscreen. Apart from the time the internal batteries died (replaced FOC by Harry Mendelssen / Garmin) it has been brilliant. Easy to use, light, reasonable battery life and relatively cheap. Wouldn't be without it as a safety aid to my VFR nav.

[S-Works]

The 196 blows the Garmin III away. It will all be a moot point anyway as the Garmin III is being discontinued in the new year!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The 196 blows the Garmin III away. It will all be a moot point anyway as the Garmin III is being discontinued in the new year!

But the 196 is far more expensive and gobbles batteries. What will replace the Pilot 111, which is eminently suitable for vintage type aeroplanes with no power supply and not much space for GPS units?

SSD

[Static Thrust]

Greetings All,

I have been following this thread with great interest, not so much for the origional question, but due to the fact I am currently running a research project into the pros and cons of using GPS in GA. The Project Website is up and running and can be found at http://members.aol.com/ukgpsresearch/index.htm

I just suspect that all those who have contributed to this Thread will probably have a very useful input to make into the question I am addressing. Please do visit the Site and encourage all those you know to do the same! If you would like to join in with this work, please do consider the part you, and those you know, could play in this field. The more contributions, the better the data gathered!

Your time in reading this Post is much appreciated and I hope to hear from you soon! Do feel free to contact me via this Site, or by e-mail at [email protected].

Regards,

Chris Morshead
UK GPS Research Project

PS MR TEDDY - I do hope you'll forgive me for "stealing" your Thread! I hope you agree it is a worthwhile cause. As for my favourite GPS - I have used the Garmin 430 the most often.

[S-Works]

According to my friend who works for Garmin UK the 196 is the replacement to the Pilot III and the III will be phased out as a result.

I disagree on the battery front, my Garmin 196 easily exceeds my Garmin III on battery life.

The extra functionality and clarity of display over the Pilot III are great.

There is talk of doing a colour version of the 196 as the unit already exist in colour in the marine version. That is going to be a long way off at the moment.

I would imagine the price of the 196 will fall as the Pilot III is phased out, but at 600 quid now it is great value for money and 200 quid cheaper than when I bought mine 18 months ago!

[Evo]

I agree with SSD - The III clips to a kneeboard, but the 196 is too big for that. It looks like a great bit of kit, but there's nowhere to put one in the aeroplane I'm flying.

[Ludwig]

Evo

Come on old chap, what are you flying? I can find space for the very excellent 196 in my not esecially big aircraft. Garmin do do a very handy bean bag arrangement for standing the unit just about anywhere (thanks bose-x :ok: ) in just about anything, as well as other bits and bobs to mount it to the a/c either forever or removably.

As for battery life, I get about 6 hours on mine down to the last knockings.

[S-Works]

As I said it's a moot point so doesn't really matter what it clips to as it will be discontinued!!!!

I have seen the 196 used in everything from microlights and the Pitts to twins. It is flexable and I guess the astonishing sales that Garmin have seen prove this!

If you switch the satelite scan rate to once every 2 seconds the thing will run for 18 hours on batteries.

[Evo]

Come on old chap, what are you flying?


You'll never have heard of it (unless you're an expert in obscure Jodel variants), but there's not much space :)

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Sorry, I was confusing the 196 with the one with colour display, which does gobble batteries. However, the 196 is more expensive and bigger (good for an easier to read display, bad for fitting in Chippies).

SSD

[BigEndBob]

Have Magellen Pioneer, cost £79 from Jersey about 3yrs ago.Uses two A A batteries, lasts 10hrs+, 100 waypoints you have to program yourself. Switch on and chuck it on top of the coming (away from compass)!.
Has worked everytime, no moving map so everything has to be checked against map.

Can't see how you can justify spending £300+ for occasional use.

[bar shaker]

Bose-x

Great tip about the scan rate, I'll give it a try :)

Can't see how you can justify spending £300+ for occasional use.

Until you have used one, this is a perfectly reasonable statement.

[Algirdas]

I participated in a thread on the Pilot III recently, no mention of it being superceded ...... so I got one a few weeks back.
For me, it's great!!! Stick it down the front of my flying suit as a backup only - the functionality is far better than I anticipated, and it would be TOO easy to rely on it as a primary if not careful. The 196 would be even easier..... a big argument in favour of the III, maybe.
It seems to me that the advantage of the III over the 196 is that it is VERY compact - and both have great functionality. Seems a shame for all the new buyers out there that they soon won't have the choice of a nice neat compact III!