QF Low Cost Carrier

[GalleyHag]

Its been reported QF will annouce the LCC tomorrow.

What do you think this will mean to short haul crew and impulse crew if our flying and if the rumours are true for short haul our aircraft are taken away from us for the LCC.

[Wirraway]

Hi Gallyhag

There is a thread running on D&G forum.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105471

Question is will "Skimpy" transfer mainline 737s or buy new
ones. A few people as you will read think Impulse will be
finished, my gut feeling is "Skimpy" will operate seperate to
Impulse.

Cheers
Wirraway

[GalleyHag]

Thanks Wirraway greatly appreciated. Sounds like stressful times ahead for us all.

[ditzyboy]

My personal view is that it may be part of Impulse somehow. But I think it will be run separate to the current operation, which will remain for the time being.

By this I mean the 717 network stays mostly as is (secondary routes - 'The System of the Golden Jets' :D ).

Then you have these 737s flying major domestic routes both complementing mainline (ie. flying SYD-PER or SYD-MEL in addition to Cityflyer product) and on leisure routes on it's own (such as SYD-OOL or SYD-HTI). This would be similar to the Air Canada 'Tango' product and also its 'Zip' subsidiary.

As far as taking away SH flying... That is what it is designed to do. Unfortunately. If the SH way of doing things loses money on leisure and low yield routes the Group must replace it with a cheaper operation. Just like when Impulse took over HTI, HBA and OOL flying (though OOL went back to SH after AN collapsed due capacity). This is also the same as JetConnect taking over some Tasman flying. Nothing new is happening.

I do think that the flying lost by SH could be made up by increased regional international flying. Pending any agruements from FAAA - International.

How about some names guys???
I am thinking...

Fresh! by Qantas (tacky but I LOVE it!)
Go! by Qantas
Qantas Express

I think it should still include a small reference to Qantas as people will seek to fly it just 'cause it's 'Qantas'.

I am exhausted and not feeling creative but would love to see what you all think about some names.

[UpperDeckRight]

ok .... have heard today.....

the new airline will be happening

the wage costs will be 'considerably' lower than VB, in all divisions.

It will not involve Impulse, but the fate of impulse 'may be' affected by the new carrier.

That was from a friend of mine in management at QF .... whether it is true, or not, who knows :confused:

[OZcabincrew]

Does anyone know, when the LCC actually starts, in regards to recruitment will they use current QF shortlisters or do a complete separate recruitment drive? Would positions be offered to MAM casuals first etc???

thanks!!!:O

[Flying_Sarah747]

You took the words right out of my mouth Ozcabincrew! :)

I'd be interested to know the answers too!

Thanks everyone!!!!!!

[Iguanahead]

I was wondering whether because it will be a subsidiary and not actualy run by QF if the shortlists actually mean anything here.

If it is totally seperate won't they have to employ outside of QF and advertise under their own brand name. I'm not starting rumours or saying I know anything I don't, I was just thinking when I was on the staffcv site that they would have to post another airline application as it won't actually be QF that we would be applying to. Similar to Australian Airlines recruitment.

Any thoughts?

[SydGirl]

The QF shortlisters are only on the shortlist for QF, not for AO, QFLink or any other airline QF may start up.

In otherwords when this new airline gets going, they may invite the QF shortlisters to apply, but they won't automatically get a position or any priority recruitment status.

Hope that helps!
SG
:)

[QF skywalker]

New airline name " Skippy " , " Mccafferties Air/Greyhound Air " !

Rumour...I repeat "rumour" - QFLINK regional crew members on career progression to progress to new carrier rather than the mothership. These people eyed off as good team leaders on aircraft with the rest of the crew made up of MAM casuals hence recent MAM recruitment drive.:}

[Iguanahead]

Thanks SydGirl that does help.

I hope we hear confirmation soon, all this speculation is driving me a bit stir crazy.:bored:

[luna landing]

I was told today that "all QF short haul cabin crew will be asked to transfer to long haul or be made redundant". Not being cabin crew, does this make sense to anyone?

[GalleyHag]

I have heard rumours (there are a lot around at the moment on this issue) that the LCC will cause a large permanent surplus of crew in SH and we will be offered positions in LH, but that is just rumour who knows what will happen until it all comes out. If the 737 aircraft are taken from SH this could very well be a possibility.

Ditzy - all I am hearing is that Impulse will not be associated with the LCC which kind of makes sense as in a way isnt that what Impulse is at the moment. Why would QF spend so much money on the new LCC idea when they already have it.

However, you make some interesting points that I hadnt considered before. Maybe Impulse will be become the new SH in a way, if you know what I mean. The Impulse operating costs are lower than SH but maybe just that little bit to high for a LCC. This maybe a good thing for Impulse. Not so good for SH but this is all just thinking out loud I suppose.

QF Skywalker - Yes those rumours have been flying around as well, what do the regional crew think? Is that an option that would be considered?

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

press release re: new low cost domestic airline avail at link at bottom of page. sorry didnt know how to paste the entire thing on here.

basically to sum it up:

* Low Cost Carrier has been approved and will be launched in May 2004

*will be established using the operation of impulse or using a new 'greenfields' company - decision to be made in 6 weeks

* will be operated as a seperate company in addition to Mainline, QFLINK + AO

* HQ Base will NOT BE IN SYDNEY

* will operate 737-800 or airbus A320 - discussions underway with leasing etc

* will operate min 23 a/c by mid 2005

* Mel advertising firm to do branding and advertising

basically its not giving us much more info than we already knew, or had assumed. interesting about it being based out of SYD and running 737s/A320s. I dont think however that our jobs are in the line of fire as much as we thought, if they are negotiating for new aircraft.. they will just recruit and train new crew as previously mentioned under their new company name.
looks like SH and Impulse crews arnt going anywhere soon!

link to asx company announcements (the actual media release):
http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/AnnHeadersForIssuer.jsp?method=get&TimeFrame=past_week&ASXCode=QAN

[GalleyHag]

I just hope the market is out there to support us all. Thats a lot of aircraft to fill.

I dont really understand the Impulse connection is that just the company as such? Not the existing Impulse operation with QFLink or are you guys still called Airconnex?

Anyways it looks like a heap more jobs on offer in the industry.

[QF skywalker]

galleyhag - what do we think of it ? Well for me it means I have no choice now but to try and find work as a flight attendant elsewhere within the QF group or outside the qf group. Unless QF do provide some type of progression to the LCC for regional QFLINK crew then we really have no future. I love my job in qflink but just don't want to stay flying regional forever on terrible pay.

All we can do is embrace the LCC concept and hope we may get a position flying with them (progression hopefully) as we sure as hell will not be coming across to QF anymore. The final blow has been dealt to the QF career progression scheme with todays announcement.

I'd be happy to do the hard yards with the new QF LCC as we all know things will become low cost eventually,so we just have to keep our chins up, keep smiling and realise that this is the industry we work in and that it will keep constantly changing.

;)

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

the actual "impulse" mention dosent really have any affect on the current 717 operations, basically when QF bought Impulse they bought not only an airline complete with crew and planes, they also got a current air operating certificate (sorry dont know the actual name for it) to run an airline.
Basically, if you want to start an airline from scratch you need to apply for one of these things and it takes about min 9 months to get one.. (bit like a licence i think) all the QF mainline operate on one and AO either have their own or operate under QFs, Impulse now operate under QFs so the old impulse one can be used for a new airline and saves paying more money and waiting ages to get approval.

What i just typed prob dosent make any sense, mabye someone on here can elaborate further who actually knows about it (as i am just going from memory) but using the air operators certificate that came with impulse would mean that the new skimpy airline can begin a hell of a lot sooner... like may 2004 as announced (only 6 months time)

[Mr Seatback 2]

IMHO, it's my understanding that it may be cheaper for them to go with Impulse. Why?

Because Impulse already have the infrastructure to support two airlines (they administer the QFLink operation for Airconnex AND Airlink - which is NJS)

Because setting everything up from scratch (including a whole new layer of management) could be cost prohibitive. When you have an airline that already operates as two separate airlines (Airconnex and NJS's Airlink), then a third would be easy to add. You already have the systems, the office space, etc. Recruit a few more staff to top up levels and away you go!

The new IT systems alone for Crewing cost anywhere in the region of US$250,000 and above! Bunging a whole new crew onto the current system would make much more sense (although I do profess to not being an expert in this area!)

Impulse Crew are cheaper than VB crew now. Of course, QF may want to go even cheaper (fingers crossed they don't go down that road and exploit the dreams of so many eager and talented future cabin crew!)

It would be quicker to cross-endorse our crew onto another aircraft type, rather than put through whole schools at the beginning (4 weeks vs. 2-3 days?).

But I could be wrong. We have seen stranger things happen before, and nothing would suprise me for now. At least we have it in black and white, with a final decision only 6 weeks away.

I sincerely hope that the kids in mainline don't suffer too much as a result of this decision. The whole situation looks positive - here's hoping it stays that way!

All this means is that the rumours are going to get WORSE than they were BEFORE this announcement! AAAARGH!

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

mr seatback i missed flying with you the other day... i was not well! :yuk: :(

re: using airconnex/impulse... do you think they really would? They have already stated that their base would be somewhere other than syd (prob bris) and that they are considering running either A320s or 737s... surely they wouldnt cross train NJS and Impulse crews onto this new a/c which would mean training new crew on 2 or more a/c types, re training us on the new a/c AND still recruit enough new crew to operate 23 a/c in addition to the normal QFlink routes, , however diminished they may become.

When AO started.. did they recruit from scratch like a seperate company? it is my understanding that they did although i didnt really follow it at the time so dont know how it worked but i am thinking that this will work simmilar. i dont think we will lose our jobs or anything over this, We will still get to fly our superjet here and there (possibly some newer locations) but i think we will also lose a few ports in the process. These new crew will prob all be put under casual or PPT contracts or leased out from somewhere like MAM. i doubt QF will be hiring any crew of their own accord anymore, too costly!
i have a bad feeling we wont be going to tassie anymore toto!

[Wirraway]

My guess is that the Cabin crews will all be hired through MAM and off the street and that
the 717 crews will remain as is, as I understand it the 717s are not
under the Impulse AOC. It sounds like "Skimpy" will be a real no-frills
outfit as Geoff Dixon stated during the AGM in Adelaide, probably
along the along the lines of Ryan Air in Europe.

from this mornings SMH

ABN Amro analyst Bruce Low said it was feasible Qantas could retire its ageing - and inefficient - fleet of 21 B737-300s while its new budget airline built up its fleet of A320 or B737-800s. The aircraft could cost up to $1.5 billion, unless the airline chose to lease the aircraft.

If I were a wannabe F/A looking for the least risk of unemployment,
I would look at either 'Skimpy' or Virgin Blue for security,
as shown around the world LCCs have a high
rate of success.

Wirraway

[Flying_Sarah747]

Just a thought...Is there the chance that there could possibly be too many low cost carriers in the end, and the amount of passengers flying on them will not be enough to cover costs etc?

What makes them think that all the people who now fly Virgin Blue will want to swap over and fly 'Skimpy'? And surely 'Skimpy' will now be a competitor to QF mainline, cause why would people fly mainline if they can fly cheaper on 'Skimpy'? Or does 'Skimpy' only fly to destinations that QF mainline doesn't?

I have no idea...just a thought that came to mind! :)

[Wirraway]

Flying_Sarah747

Look at the quote in my post above as the possible answer
to your question.

25 new aircraft for 'Skimpy' in, and the 21 old 737s out from SH gives
you an increase of only 4 aircraft, not much increase in capacity
at all.

Wirraway

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

you would have to also consider the fact that the average business traveller, Frequent Flyer and Oneworld member will still fly mainline. People will always want to fly business and first class.. Citiflyer will still operate as usual, so in effect those pax wanting a really cheap airfare from bris- syd will prob only be able to book onto one of 2 flights operated by skimpy that day, the rest will be citiflyer @ normal prices.
LH flights will still be mainline; and qflink flights (i hope) will still do mostly normal tassie/nqld destinations but be complemented by mabye 1 skimpy service per day for those that wish to fly that way.

(thats what i am hoping anyway)

[Mr Seatback 2]

She'sGreatInTheGalley

Yes! I did miss flying with you - we had a great trip (such a pity you couldn't make it). Hope you're feeling better!

As for this LCC thing:

1) It would make a lot of sense - particularly in the start up phase - to cross train Impulse Crews (not everyone, but those where the operation will start from)

Think about it. Say, for example, operations started out of SEQ. Cross train the SEQ guys to operate on 737's (for example), then whilst they run the show, train a whole new group of new guys. Once they are all trained, etc, slowly send our guys back to Impulse flying.

2) Australian, as I understand, seconded some Cabin Crew into AO for a period of time to assist with training, etc. Something similar may happen with Skimpy.

3) As for the operations being based in somewhere other than SYD, funny how SEQ is expanding like mad right now isn't it? Even funnier is the fact it could be held in the same state as VB's HQ. Guess we'll have to see which state offers the best tax incentives to determine who wins what!

Wirraway:

For the most part, I agree with you. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the majority of crew were either contracted or MAM casuals. I do however hope they at least offer some form of security in the realm of full time employment to crew in this new carrier.

As for the 717's, they are on the Impulse AOC. Reading it right now in front of me.

Interesting times ahead people.

[Wirraway]

Mr SB2
For the most part, I agree with you. I would not be surprised in the slightest if the majority of crew were either contracted or MAM casuals. I do however hope they at least offer some form of security in the realm of full time employment to crew in this new carrier.

Yes, I agree for the type of pay likely to be on offer, I think
after the normal probation period the job should be permanent
with no contracts, I have only flown 4 sectors with Impulse
when they first started, but like DJ found the cabin crew happy
and content, and think that knowing that they won't get the
boot at the end of a contract period makes for happy camp.

'Skimpy' crews as Mr Dixon mentioned would have their own
EBA to the rest of the subsidiary's, and by the sounds of it, will
be truly independent. The pilots could well come from mainline
but the rest, F/As, check-in, ramp rats etc would be all new and
trained in the art of no-frills flying, 'Skimpy' has hired ex Ryan Air
execs to guide it, and Ryan Air is nothing like Impulse.

Wirraway

[saloon]

So that the average flyer does not even realise they are flying on QANTAS group aircraft, QF will want to establish the LCC as an entirely separate airline. In order to achieve this, they are going to have to 'give' this new airline a strong, independant brand from day one. Different procedures, different systems, different culture. This, I would imagine, also applying to staff/recruitment.

However, if this carrier actually grows to 20+ aircraft by 2006, then there are going to be a lot of surplus 'human resources' at QF (could you hear my skin crawl when i wrote human resources? Shudder). For some reason, i can't see how the market is going to be able to sustain that many more seats on a daily basis. Perhaps, as a means of negating this, QF will ask for volunteers from current CC ranks to join the airline. Hopefully, this will be the case.

What is the general consensus in all the different flying units, given the distinct lack of info provided about the new venture?

[SydGirl]

Ok having had 24 hours to think about this.. I've come up with the following conclusions.

Qantas don't do anything purely for the travelling public. It's all about their bottom line and how much money they are going to make!! (I already knew this but thought I'd throw it in anyway)

The new airline will definitely be formulated with a new identity and market strategy. There will always be a percentage of the travelling market that will want the full service given by QF. What QF will have to do is create a new airline with a new market. Ideally they don't want to entice away customers from their full-service carrier. They want to create either a) a new market or b)an alternative to VB.

My crystal ball tells me that the setup will be akin to Australian Airlines. The initial routes will be those that are high volume, low yield.. eg. SYD-OOL - not a lot of full fare paying pax on that route and a perfect starter for Skimpy. How convenient too that Skimpy, being still a part of QF can feed pax to the regionals!

I agree with Wirraway's perception of the cabin crew being mainly MAM casuals or even possibly contractors. I do sincerely doubt there will be much recruitment in QF mainline shorthaul (sorry to those on the shortlist!) and thus zero progression from the regionals (which also sucks!).

The new airline will need a new culture, as mentioned by saloon. However this culture is not going to come from established QF crew - that is just the kind of culture they do not want! They want fresh, young and most importantly... cheap - the airline will be based on the Ryanair model so FA's base salary will be low, but as some compensation they will receive share options, great opportunity for promotion and a percentage of the bar/product sales on board. Ryanair FA's also fund their own cabin crew training and (I believe!) also their uniforms! No offence intended but I cannot see many QF crew relishing the offer of a job at Skimpy.

Anyway all of the above is just pure speculation - and just my thoughts.

SG
:)

[Wirraway]

Hi SG

If you can believe what you read that DJ has blondes running
out of its ears, maybe 'Skimpy' can reply by hiring brunettes
and redheads to even things up a bit, your crystal ball not
looking too bad from here. :-)

Wirraway

[GalleyHag]

Mr Seatback - What you say makes a lot of sense, but from everything Dixon and the company has put out the LCC will be a totally new operation and he stressed yesterday that they will be under a new EBA and the operation will be cheap and lean. Therefore even though you guys are cheaper than DJ I think QF wants to be even cheaper.

QFSkywalker - I know what you are saying I was there once. I think the only option apart from LH is Australian they are growing rapidly and will announce more routes next year and they have a real future and they earn good money unlike im afriad the new LCC. But you guys at regional should express your idea to FAAA so at least they can put it to QF as an option.

If QF did retire its 737-300 fleet that would make a lot of SH f/a's unemployed.

QF have been saying for well over a year now that labour costs have to come down and they need to compete on a level footing with DJ and this is how they are going to get around the unions and reduce labour costs. I have a bad feeling that the market is just not there to sustain all operations SH, the LCC and the 717 operation and you can bet that if there is an oversupply the first to go will not be the LCC.

[Q-T]

WELL THE SHORTHAUL TO LONGHAUL TRANSFER LIST IS ALIVE AND KICKING AGAIN!!!!

SHORTHAUL CREW HAVE BEEN PHONED AND OFFERED POSITIONS, THEIR CONVERSION TRAINING STARTS NOV 4TH
DOES ANYONE KNOW ANY NUMBERS???
TA Q-T:p

[QF skywalker]

galleyhag - when the time comes what do you think you will do, what are the s/h crew saying about the LCC ? are many looking at L/H, AO or the LCC as an option ?

I don't see the retirement of the 733 fleet as a big deal. QF now only have about four 733's left in the fleet as the rest have been sold off to airlines like comair in south africa.

I also heard today that January is the month we will see the first A330-300 arrive which should hopefully shake things up in longhaul in terms of the s/h to l/h tsfr list and also external recruitment.

[GalleyHag]

I think everyone is just playing a waiting game no one at short haul wants to see their job go but I think most are realistic. Obviously if there was a huge oversupply of crew Qantas would be obligated to find jobs for us be it with LH or other divisions but that is down the track. I think though I will be putting my name on the LH transfer list anyway, it cant hurt to keep my options open.

Most people that were talking about the LCC today tend to think it will effect the 717 operation first than us as the LCC will initially fly leisure routes and we at SH dont have many of those.

[Mr Seatback 2]

It probably will affect Pulse just as much as it does Short Haul - maybe?!?

For example, Pulse is taking SYD-CNS, SYD-OOL, BNE-CNS, and I believe BNE-TSV flights in addition to Short Haul operations (if not in exchange for, in some circumstances).

A final decision either way will be in 6 weeks time - so not long before we all find out the true intentions.

I agree with you GalleyHag, and would not be surprised if QF thought they could go cheaper than they already have with us. Guess it all depends on what 'incentives' (related to performance I presume, like Ryanair) they can offer to round out what may well be a pittance of a base salary. Fingers crossed that my cyncism is unfounded!

You have to also consider what QF considers 'leisure'. Sure, the Pulse operates a majority of leisure flying, but what of SYD-ASP or SYD-AYQ? MEL-BME? There's leisure on both sides of the fence - whose flying gets pillaged by the LCC remains to be seen.

As for making crew pay for their training (I needn't insert my opinion on this...it's beyond my level-headed comprehension), and their uniforms (not unusual in the states, but still...:hmm: ), I only hope they get something in return, other than the stock standard response of: "You should be glad to have a job!"

All I hope for at the end of the day is this:
a) No Short Haul crew are made redundant
b) No Impulse crew are made redundant
c) The LCC goes ahead and creates employment in a very difficult field to gain entry
d) The conditions at Skimpy (or whatever it's called) aren't so bad that people are exploited

Of course - my hopes may all come to nothing. Fingers crossed that most of my list comes true. For everyone's sake!

[qfmike737]

Bring on more 717s!!!!!! I luuuurrrrrve them!!!! But it'd be nicer if you were allowed to flush the lavs when they're on bay.

[Wirraway]

Mr Seatback

Check the other thread, a couple of analysts think the
14 717s will be going to 'Skimpy'

Wirraway

[sirjfp]

I reckon that it is a strange move by Q.f to set up an airline that is going to cannibalise it's own market. I reckon that it is the first step in a calculated move to eventually have this " low cost" domestic operation cannibalise the entire domestic operation.
Perhaps it is the cynic in me to think that Q.F management would stoop so low....They just wouldn't ....would they??/

Fasten seat belts we may be encountering turbulence soon.

Stay safe, stay united.

[ShesGreatintheGalley]

Qantas said on Thursday the new airline would fly at least 23 aircraft by mid-2005 but there was speculation yesterday this could include 14 Boeing 717s already operated by its Impulse Airlines subsidiary.
A decision about whether to start the airline using Impulse or as a greenfield operation is due to be made within six weeks.

"They're not going to put 23 new aircraft in the market - that would be a less than sensible idea," said Macquarie Equities analyst Ian Myles. "I think they will use 14 717s, they'll use eight new 737-800s and they'll use one from the existing fleet."

[saloon]

It is really quite sad that i am playing aviation analyst on a Sunday morning (note to self: must get a life), but...

Isn't 'commonality' the key word, particularly when talking about a fleet of only 25 aicraft? The 717 is a good aircraft, but is it really suited to LCC service? You can't fit that many people into it and it is range challenged (or so i read). I know AirTran in the US use it, but i think they have a slightly different focus than what the proposed LCC is slated to have.

I just don't see how this prediction really fits the traditional LCC mould.

For my closing thought... These new companies are undoubtedly a way of lowering costs. In 25 years time, do you think that the jetBlue's and Virgin Blue's of the world will be announcing at their annual GM the setting up of a new low cost airline?

'We've got to reduce costs', an aged Brett Godfrey said. 'There is no way we can compete with a competitor with a cost base 30% less than ours. Our costs are too high.'

Where will it end?

[Qwannas]

I can remember watching/listening to Geoffrey the last time he was interviewed on Business Sunday. (Early Sept, I think) It was right at the end of the interview and the questions were revolving around "where would this 'proposed' new LCC be flying to?" (IF it is approved!) They were discussing 'leisure routes' and Geoff made the illusive comment of "how exactly do you define what is a leisure route is, anyway?"

I can distinctly remember thinking "What's that got to do with the price of Tia Maria?" and wondering what the relevance of such a comment was. :confused: Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I'd have to agree with your guess, sirjfp :suspect:

I think that is just where QF is heading (and I think it will all happen at a million miles). The only competition that Short Haul has is another LCC, flying to all destinations. Wouldnt you be aiming at largely doing the same? I think that is what Geoff was implying way back then. A 'leisure route' could be any or even all of their flying destinations - it just depends on how you look at it. :hmm:

[UpperDeckRight]

Have heard a rumour yesterday..

- Impulse crew will be too costly to work for the LCC - they want even cheaper.

- Almost all crew will be casual

- it will be crewed without assistance from any current qf operations.




Personally, I have a theory - and it is wild speculation on my behalf, but feasible a few years down the track.

QF could eventually become a purely International Carrier again, just operating SYD-BNE-MEL-PER full service sectors domestically. Qantas will have only one division of 'Qantas mainline' crew, who would fly mostly International, and the few domestic full service sectors. The LCC would do the rest of domestic operations.

As I said, purely speculation on my behalf, but it would make sense for QF to let the LCC do most of the domestic sectors(cheaper = more profit !!). It would also make sense for QF to have only one division of mainline crew for EBA/rostering/admin/training/ purposes.


Just some thoughts !
:cool:

[Qwannas]

Interesting theory, URD, one division of QF Mainline would certainly make $ense.

However, IMHO going for a lower/cheaper base than Impulse would be a waste of time for QF - certainly from a long term/safety point of view. (Lets not forget that Impulse is infact a cheaper base than Virgin.) With substandard wages comes poor morale, poor services, and (god forbid) even poor standards with regards to safety. All of that spells jets dropping out of the sky; which = no pax, which = no profit AT ALL.

Sounds harsh, but it certainly could be a reality they would have to face.

Basically, they just couldnt go too cheap. In the end it would all come back to bite them on the bum. Not Rocket Science, just common sense. But, hey, I am not a GREEDY Board Member/Major Shareholder. So what would I know about what is good for the long term of the QF Business!

[UpperDeckRight]

Qwannas .... its all relative mate

I (personally) would consider Impulse to be substandard wages (no offence!). Yet I doubt Impulse crew have poor morale, poor service or poor safety.:cool:

People would do this job for minimum wage, and as long as the company they work for looks after their morale, their crew will be great on low wages!

Its funny, when it all boils down to it, it isnt what people get paid that creates good morale/service/enthusiasm. Surveys show that $$$ is a the main motivation factor in less than 10% of workers. Its all about how the company treats their employees. Most QF longhaul crew would earn well in excess of $60,000 a year, alot even break the $100,000 barrier. yet morale is very low with us. Thats kinda where QF mainline has gone wrong - they think good wages must equate to happy crew. And the wages are fantastic, yet a lot of crew are unhappy, - it's all about how people perceive they are treated by their company, most QF cabin crew feel they have no respect from their management.

The relationship between QF Longahul crew and their management is rarely anything but strained ( I believe, mostly due to ' innacurate perceptions' ).

If the new LCC treats their crew well, they will do well----> no matter what they pay their staff ;)

[ditzyboy]

Wirraway -
I disagree with your post about the security of LCCs. What about Continental Lite, USAir Metrojet, Delta Express, Tango by Air Canada, United Shuttle, Buzz (owned by KLMuk), VirginSun, Lufthansa Express and GoFly by BA??? These are all LCCs started by major airlines that have bitten the dust. Infact I can't think of one that lasted more than two years (except Go which was sold because it almost killed BA at some bases!) Not good stats, I am afraid! Why is this going to work? What is so different?

Also re. the 717 AOC. It isn't on the CASA website anymore. Who's AOC are they on? How old is this AOC you are reading Mr Seatback? Is it the current one?

UDR -
I am living quite comfortably in SYD on my 'lowly' Impulse wages - and I am high maintainence! Seriously they are pretty damned good for our set up. Princess stuff is what we do. Most Long Haul FAs deserve their money 'cause they work bloody hard for it! We at the Pulse get paid good money for what we do. We are hard working and give a good service. I can assure you though. There is no nails being chipped over this way!

Comparing the earnings of Impulse and LH cabin crew is like comparing apples and oranges. Most LH crew would laugh at how easy they would find the Impulse flying. A single class and reasonable hours. No back of clock, 10 days at off at home guaranteed. Put a Pulse Chick in Y class galley on an oversold SYD-LAX and you would find most wouldn't make it.

Another point. I can assure you that, however good it may seem, cabin crew morale is the last thing on Impulse management's agenda! Period. :(

GalleyHag -
I agree. Impulse is in danger but SH too looks like being changed in some form. And I don't think the changes at either camp will be minimal!

Impulse and SH stand to lose out to varying degrees. Lets all stand together and hope nothing but the best for each.

QFskywalker -
What is the feeling at the Dash camp re. progression now? Looks like the LCC is going to effect everyone.

[QF skywalker]

ditzy the feeling at the dash camp is horrid. What are we to do ? The only way to save us is for the faaa and qantas to negotiate a progression scheme into L/H for regional crew, of course this could cause some conflict with S/H as they would obviously want preference to these positions before regional crew as their jobs are the ones being threatened so this still leaves us at the bottom of the queue.

I don't really see the progression scheme as anything QF care about these days, I could think of a thousand other solutions i.e - cross training all qantaslink crew on each others a/c to maintain morale etc but this would never happen as QF would always find excuses to prevent something like this happening.

The way I see it dash crews have a few options-
1. Remain on low pay forever and fly regional
2. Apply externally for the new LCC
3. Virgin Blue

[Mr Seatback 2]

The new LCC - whatever it is and whoever runs it - may not be as casualised as we would all think.

Airlines - whatever their nature - have to be able to plan for schedules, etc. Hiring a predominantly casual workforce is fraught with danger.

In order to plan accordingly, the LCC needs to be able to crew each duty as part of planned crewing. Unless they plan to crew the airline with hundreds upon hundreds of casuals, I don't see how this will work (remember how Flight Force casuals weren't getting any hours for months? True, AN was not designed as a casual workforce, but at the same time, it is difficult to assign a full-time roster without that casual arguing later on that they should be made a full time employee).

Although, a loophole may exist if the casuals are MAM or another contractor.

Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.

All I hope is that we all come out of this safe, secure and with our money/working conditions intact!

It's only been a week since the announcement and look how this thread has expanded! The next 5 weeks are going to be a killer!

[GalleyHag]

This is going to have a big effect on regional crew, but you guys should band together and talk with the FAAA. Long Haul crew will never allow you to take your senority with you. But the FAAA could put a proposal to Qantas where you could progress to Long Haul on year 1 pay and no senority. That would be far better than progressing to the new LCC on similar wages. This may not be such a big issue for the FAAA international union as it will not directly effect their members and it would be just a matter of amending the progression agreement. But you guys being Eastern and Sunstate would need to approach your union and get them to go and fight for you on this issue.

I can see some short haul crew (myself included) wanting to go to Long Haul if everything falls apart in short haul but there would be a lot that wouldnt. You guys should get in now and try to work out a deal. Just my thoughts though as there maybe a lot of you that dont want to go to Long haul either.

I suppose it would be more difficult for Impulse crew as you guys currently dont have a progression agreement as such whereas Eastern and Sunstate have that advantage.

[UpperDeckRight]

Mr Seatback 2

quote:
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Furthermore, since they are casuals, they would be able to drop trips without losing sick leave, etc. because they HAVE no sick leave! Imagine the drop in coverage during big events like Mardi Gras, etc.



------------------------------


That is the whole point of having casuals, if casual crew are seen to develop a 'pattern' of not being available, they simply dont get called to work again.

Casuals have no recourse against termination, that is why QF and others want them so much. Trying to get rid of a permanent employee under our FAAA EBAs is very difficult. Whereas casuals ----- just dont get called again, and they are gone :{

[Mr Seatback 2]

Where's the patronage if they have hundreds of casuals, and none of them are getting called in the first place?

That's what I saw happen at AN - the casuals simply jacked the job in for one with a regular income! The enthusiasm wears off real quick when they don't get any income/hours from what they've spent 4 weeks training for...sad, but true!

And really, given the cost of training schools, could the LCC afford to do this on a regular basis? Unless of course they do a 'Ryanair' and get the crew to pay for their training (...shudder shudder...)

[johnny utar]

just a question, the pulse kids, are they qantas employed or just airconnects, ( contracts). and if they are the later, doesn't that mean they can be told to crew the LCC or leave?.

[Mr Seatback 2]

Johnny Utar,

The Airconnex crew are employed by Impulse Airlines/Airconnex who are a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, meaning they are employed by a company that is owned by Qantas.

For all intents and purposes, they are considered Qantas Group employees, in the same way as Eastern and Sunstate crew are. They receive profit share, staff travel, access to Qantas Credit Union, Qantas College, and their ID's are produced and controlled by Qantas.

All crew are currently permanent full time, and always have been (with the exception of that regrettable unit trust holder arrangement they had before the FAAA become involved...shudder shudder).

As for the LCC, who knows what will happen in the future - I think we're seeing the inevitable end of flying for life as many of us envisaged in the beginning.

[OZcabincrew]

Heard today that QF will be taking people off the shortlist to fill 120 casual positions? Can anyone shed some light on this. I'm guessing that these positions will be filled by the MAM shortlisters & not QF???

Any info's great!