Pilot 111 dead after < 2 years

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

My not-quite2-year-old 'Pilot 111' refused to switch on the other week. changed the batteries (twice) but still dead as the proverbial door nail. So I packed it off to Garmin with a covering letter. Others have said 'they'll just send you anew one, free of charge'.

No such luck. I got a phone call today from Garmin; "we can't mend it, but we'll replace it with a new one for £125.89".

That's an odd amount. But I really don't have any option but to pay it. :{

The new one will come with 1 year's warranty. So in theory it could cost me £125.89 per year for thye prvaledge of owning a working 'Pilot 111'.

Anyone else had similar experiences?

SSD

[Flyin'Dutch']

Hi SSD,

That is not really on.

You can expect more use out of any of the fine products of the Garmin stable than a mere 24 months.

I would point this out in a well worded letter and explain that you understand that the warranty is only 12 months but that you would expect a reputable company like them to look after their customers better.

I take it that the thing just died without any damage done to it or anything else which they can say was due to misuse by you?

After all these things should just go on and on and on as there are no serviceable items in them and no wear and tear on electronics other than may be the display.

Certainly worth a letter to appeal to their better nature rather than just sit back an pay up.

FD

[Timothy]

SSD

Can't help on the Garmin, but just to give you a heartwarming story of how we mere nothings can still beat the corporate bastards at their own games....

About six years ago I bought the cheapest portable CD player on the market (£34.99, IMSC) and a 3 year warranty (£40, ISTR). I then used this for music on hold on the PBX, which means that it is running 365/24/7. It fails every 18 months, I take it back to Dixons, they give me a new unit and another three years' warranty.

Makes me feel better about every time a corporate screws me.

W

[ToryBoy]

SSD

Don't pay up!!!

I also had a GPS III Pilot that went t:mad: ts up and I spoke to Garmin telling them that I was sorely disappointed and I had been mid flight when it happened (which I was).

They were very apologetic and sent me a free "overhauled" one which works a treat.

This was only about two months ago so I would push a bit harder if I were you and I'm happy to let you quote my name and address when you speak to them so you can request "similar customer service" from them!!

PM me if you're interested.

[Ludwig]

How very odd of Garmin. I sent back a four year old well travelled 90 which suddenly stopped working, quite willing to pay to have it fixed, and they just sent me back a new 90 FOC. I was so impressd with that sort of service I bought a 196. Anyone want to buy an unused 90?:cool:

[You want it when?]

If it's out of warranty, it's out of warrenty. Why should you expect them to replace it for free? Besids surely no harm can come even if it fails in mid-flight as it's not your primary navigation unit.

Tsk Tsk - Something for free.

[The Nr Fairy]

YWIW:

But SSD's expectations have been raised by anecdotal stories of excellent customer service . . .

[Flyin'Dutch']

YWIW,

When you buy something which reasonably can be expected to last longer than a year the manufacturer can not just say 'tough luck' to you as a customer. I believe there is some EU law on this.

Good companies like Volvo actually pride themselves in giving longer come-backs and they will give you a pro-rata discount if long life parts fail before the end of their expected life.

FD

[Timothy]

Being in and out of warranty isn't the whole story by a long way.

If the unit is not fit for purpose (and that might include a reasonable expectation that it will continue to work for more than twelve months) you have "statutory rights".

The 12 month warranty is just a part of the story.

I say kick up a fuss.

W

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The unit is 'as new' in appearance, and certainly wasn't dropped or damaged in any way by me.

I do consider it unreasonable that it has failed 11 months out of warranty considering these aviation GPS units are not cheap to start with.

ToryBoy - I'll mention your experience, and PM you if they want actual names etc.

SSD

[MLS-12D]

I got a phone call today from Garmin; "we can't mend it ... ".This begs the question, "what is wrong with it?". Legally speaking, Garmin may not be on the hook, but certainly I think that you are entitled to an explanation as to why the unit spontaneously failed and is considered irrepairably damaged by the manufacturer. Assuming that you didn't abuse it in some way, then either this particular unit had a unique manufacturing defect (in which case Garmin should replace it, warranty expiry or not), or there is a generic defect in the product (which sounds unlikely, and if true I and others on this forum will want to hear all about it).

My advice is do not be hostile or argumentative (since if you do they may well just tell you to :mad: off), but by all means keep up a gentle but determined pressure. If the person that you are speaking with can't or won't help you, ask to speak to their supervisor, and push it up the chain until you get a result that you can live with.

[LowNSlow]

SSD My Pilot III internal batteries died and refused to recharge despite following Garmin's advice and leaving it off for a week with new batteries in it (there is a thread about it from a few weeks ago). The internal batteries (Li-Ion I think) are supposed to have a 10 year life. I bought mine from HM at the PFA Rally 2 years ago. I returned it to HM who have sent it to Garmin. Regardless of the warranty, I am not expecting to pay more than postage for getting this unit reparied as the internal batteries should, by Garmin's definition, last a lot longer than a couple of years.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Good news from Garmin. I wrote pointing out that I though it unreasonable for my Pilot 111 to fail so young and for me to be charged for replacement, and did they think they had correctly assessed the situation.

Today, a free replacement Pilot 111 arrived in the post.

Result!!

Thanks to PPRuNers for telling me of your experiences with Garmin, and for encoraging me not to just accept that I'd be ripped off.

Thanks to Garmin for taking the reasonable stance.

SSD

[MLS-12D]

SSD,

That's great! Glad to hear that it all worked out.

No doubt Garmin recognized that word gets around, and that it would be better to stand behind their product than to hide behind the letter of the law in their warranty provisions. Good for them.

MLS-12D

[Monocock]

Glad it worked SSD

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Glad they did that. Same happened to me - a 3 yr old PilotIII would just switch itself off after 5 mins and sometimes would not come on at all. They replaced it free after sending it in for examination.

I had a few email discussion with one of their techies about it. The problem seems to come from putting in rechargeable batteries of a certain kind. Which I had done. They have a characteristic that fries a power management circuit. It is a well known problem apparently.

Cheers

WWW

[ChrisVJ]

"Pilot 111 dead after 2 years."

Gee if I'm still flying then I won't winge

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Glad they did that. Same happened to me - a 3 yr old PilotIII would just switch itself off after 5 mins and sometimes would not come on at all. They replaced it free after sending it in for examination.

I had a few email discussion with one of their techies about it. The problem seems to come from putting in rechargeable batteries of a certain kind. Which I had done. They have a characteristic that fries a power management circuit. It is a well known problem apparently.

I'd only ever used Duracells in mine - don't have any rechargables. And it had led a cossetted life, that's why I was tad annoyed when it died so young...

SSD

[Just Cruisin]

WWW wrote
I had a few email discussion with one of their techies about it. The problem seems to come from putting in rechargeable batteries of a certain kind. Which I had done. They have a characteristic that fries a power management circuit. It is a well known problem apparently.


It'd be useful to have a clue to the "certain kind", as the problem is clearly not well-enough known, and maybe a few more of us could avoid falling into the same trap.:ok:

Cheers

[big.al]

It fails every 18 months, I take it back to Dixons, they give me a new unit and another three years' warranty.

WCollins - I work for Dixons, so it makes me all warm inside to think you've found a way of screwing them! No really - I'm not being sarcastic - nice one!

[Just Cruisin]

Well, that seems a pretty sure-fire way of killing off a thread!:(
All I asked for was a fairly staightforward piece of info ......... what "certain batteries"? ......or do we all have to fry our Pilot IIIs to find out?:{

Just thought I'd give it another try!!:E

Cheers

JC

[javelin]

The rechargeable battery thing doesn't hold up IMHO. A NiCd or NiMH produces a voltage of around 1.5 - 1.8 when fully charged although they are rated at 1.2v. A dry cell such as a Duracell is nominally rated at 1.5v and generally produces 1.5v. The difference in voltage is not a factor as these ubnits are designed to run at varying voltages in any case.

The discharge characteristics are very different as the rechargeable cells will hold voltage for longer, but die quicker.

I have run all sorts of equipment on NiCd's and now on NiMh's - much better capacity without any problem. We need a boffin on the case - replies please :8

Oh, by the way, an earlier poster mentioned Volvo were good at out of warranty claims - No, no, no and er no! Both me and a mate had V70's (laugh, I nearly did), and had problems within months of the 3 year warranty running out. Neither of us got more than a 'sorry' letter from them - appalling customer service, never again, Stuttgart rules OK :ok:

[Kolibear]

One of the reasons for having warrantys is that it enable 'techies' to identify failure trends i nthe early years of a product's life.

If, for example the first purchasers of Pilot IIIs all returned them after a few months as, lets say, the on/off switch failed, then it gives the engineers a chance to introduce a new, better, switch.

I would agree with F D about some car companys giving a pro-rata discount on long-life parts that fail early. Mrs K got a new gearbox that way! If won't work on consumables like exhausts or clutches.

[Flyin'Dutch']

Javelin,

Sorry to read about your experience with Volvo. I quoted from the time that 'pipes and slippers' were compulsory to procure a Volvo and that Volvos were built like the proverbial.

Ah, those were the days.

;)

FD

[WelshFlyer]

I don't know if the pilot III has a built-in charger, but there are differances in Ni-Cd, Ni-Mh, and LI-ON cells in charging. Is this what blew the power management system?

WF.

[Lowtimer]

WF,

No, there's no internal charger. If using rechargable batteries you have to take them out (4 AA pencells) and put them in whatever charger you have separately acquired.

[Gunner B12]

We've obviously got it easy in Western Australia as there is a law here that states that the product should be fit for the purpose it was sold and that includes a reasonable expectation of lifespan. I got my wife's car's dashboard replaced free of charge and the car was 4 and a half years old. I also got a full refund for my dvd player after it died at 18 months.

It may be worth checking if there is such a law in your own neck of the woods.

:ok:

[david viewing]

Please forgive the length of this posting, but it seems to me that there is a lot of confusion about battery operated GPS behaviour amongst pilots and maybe manufacturers, as evidenced here.

1) "GPS switches off for no reason". Yes. My venerable GPS92 did it on Wednesday while scud running to Shawbury. Good to always have another means of navigation.

Almost invariably the reason for this is corrosion of the battery contacts. AA powered devices rely on spring pressure for contact and a thin layer of plating on battery and spring to prevent corrosion. Movement (or aircraft vibration) causes this plating to chafe, exposing bare metal which corrodes.

The corrosion forms a very tough oxide film which inhibits current flow momentarily and Bingo! switch off. In a torch, which the AA cells were designed for, you'd never know. But in a microprocessor gadget like a GPS, the only possibility is to shut down before the system becomes corrupt. Note that increasing contact pressure by bending springs etc only makes things worse because the oxide can resist any amount of force and greater spring pressure increases the chafing.

Often the corrosion relates to the battery cells themselves and can be fixed with new ones. In emergency, removing them and rubbing the end caps on a piece of cloth (trousers?) will probably allow you to complete the flight without more trouble.

Eventually, corrosion will show up on the contacts or springs and the only proper fix is to replace them. But a temporary fix is to use a fibre glass cleaning pencil (available from Maplin for instance) to remove the corrosion and burnish the metal. This will work for a while, but you'll end up cleaning the contacts for every flight!

2) "Rechargeable AA cells" However tempting economically, I advise against rechargeables in hand held GPS. The reason is that all rechargeables have a vent for pressure relief during charging (they can get quite hot) and the gas being vented contains electrolyte, which is often corrosive. This is the white crystalline deposit seen around the positive end of worn out Nicads.

You won't know that a cell is venting until it corrodes your contacts. This is one reason why some manufacturers don't provide internal recharging circuits in AA powered appliances. (The build up of heat and risk of explosion are others). Possibly, the cells are more prone to venting in GPS than other applications because of the altitude changes.

Now these comments may not apply to every type of AA rechargeable, but I don't know for sure and so I stick to good quality Alkaline cells. Even so, all brands of alkaline have the possibility of expelling unpleasant chemicals. In my opinion the copper top variety are less worse than many others. The golden rule is to replace them early.

3) "The batteries fried my GPS". I doubt it. If the 'frying' was because of excess voltage, it would be more likely with Alkalines than most rechargeables. And if it was caused by insufficient voltage straining a voltage converter, that would be more likely with Alkalines as well. And if it was caused by the greater current capability of Nicads or other rechargeables then that's just ludicrous.

One thing that could distress your GPS is reverse insertion, something not helped by the pathetic labelling of many GPS's. Most modern battery appliances are designed to withstand reverse polarity, but the quality of this design may vary and faults might become apparent some time later. If the 'protection' is a reverse polarity diode, reverse insertion might blow an internal fire protection fuse. The unit would then be 'dead'. (No, I'm not suggesting anything about this particular case!).

It might be a good idea if manufacturers were a bit more straightforward in explaining some these problems to their customers and avoided the need to resort to spurious excuses. In particular, If they don't already, they should make spare contacts easily available for fitment by qualified technicians.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Interesting post, David. I know you were not refering to this case in particular, but it is perhaps worth reinforcing that neither the 'switching off' fault or the 'sudden death' of my former Pilot 111s could be expalined by your reasoning. That isn't to say that your reasoning isn't perfectly valid.

My first Pilot111 (exchanged by the supplier after a week since it had the fault from new) did indeed switch itself off in flight. Its replacement did not, and worked without a problem until it 'died'. It never switched itself off in flight, and I didn't have to do any restoration of the battery caps to ensure it worked OK.

When it died after almost 2 years of fault-free use, it wasn't following a battery replacement. One weekend it worked fine. Next weekend (same batteries, about half discharged therefore about 5 hours life left) it simply wouldn't switch on. The unit had spent the intervening week in my house in its bag, as it always does - and had not been touched since the flight the previous week.

As said earlier, Garmin eventually replaced it free of charge. But I haven't been able to fly it yet due aeroplane being U/S. Hope to put that right tomorrow.

Hope it doesn't switch itself off:cool:

SSD