Mayday question....

[big.al]

Morning ladies and gents.

Hopefully you folks can help out an inexperienced pilot with a query on how Mayday calls would be handled at the ATC end.

Let say I'm flying VFR from Sheffield City to Norwich. Roughly 15 mins after departure I'm level at FL55 and three miles from Gamston, receiving LARS from Waddington, when the engine fails. I declare a Mayday to Waddington, having completed the ABCD checks and find the engine won't restart, and squawk 7700.

I advise Waddington that my intention is an immediate forced landing, but naturally choose the 1200m Gamston runway in preference to a Lincs/Notts field. Do I now need to change frequency to Gamston and re-declare the emergency to them, so that all circuit traffic can give way and they can prepare the fire services for the emergency? Or will Waddington telephone through to Gamston to advise them (assuming they can get through) so that I can concentrate on getting the damned thing on the ground (remember, "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" - in that order).

If the latter then that's all very well at Gamston because their tower is usually manned when the airfield in licenced, but what about if the forced landing was at Netherthorpe, where the radio is often unmanned even at times when the circuit is fairly busy?

I'm sure Waddington will pass me the relevant frequency and I guess a failure at a reasonable altitude will give sufficient time to play around with the radio, but what happens if I'm at only 2400ft and time is limited?

Thanks in advance for any help!

[strafer]

Big Al

I'm pretty sure I know the answer, but I'll let a more articulate ATCO tell you. From a pilot's point of view, ALWAYS choose the 1200m paved runway over the field. The CAA may well ask you some 'pointed' questions if you put the plane down in a field next to an lovely long strip of tarmac.

[Spitoon]

The short answer is that the ATC unit that you declare an emergency on will do whatever they can to smooth the way for you - ideally, if there is little time available, without you having to change frequency. If you have a problem but are able to continue flying until you get to a suitable airport you may be asked to change frequency but the controllers will certainly have passed on all of the details of your situation (so you shouldn't have to re-declare the emergency).

As you can see, the controllers will act differently according to the circumstances on the day - we do annual refresher training to make sure we are up to speed with the resources that we can call on etc. If you expect to land away from an airport, the controller will let the most appropriate emergency services know. In practice, if there's a heli around, we may ask if it will go to the area to assist, alternatively, another aircraft may be able to pinpoint the landing site and circle overhead to provide position information and updates on what is happening. If you land on an airport, you can expect the emergency services to be alerted.

All of this applies if you are talking to ATC. ATC will have telephone numbers for all of the local airfields but, as you mention, they can't always guarantee to get through or, if it's not ATC they can't always guarantee that there will be someone on the radio - but they will try and get through. If ATC can't make contact with an airport that you're trying to land at then this is one of the situations where a frequency change might be necessary - but it all depends on the circumstances.

There are lots of other things that can go on in the background when an aircraft declares an emergency but I hope this helps.

[niknak]

Big Al'
Not so long ago I had a Mayday aircraft in extactly the scenario you describe, except that he wasn't familiar with the area.

For some reason (that I'm still not aware of) he decided to call me rather than D & D - perhaps he thought I would be able act upon local knowledge.
I was able to guide him to the nearest suitable airfield, which as it happens was not us but 2 miles away from his position, whilst I and my colleague made the necessary calls to the emergency services and the airfield in question.
As luck would have it, both the based medic' helicopter and a local SAR Sea King were also airborne at the time on training duties, and they were in his vicinity within 3 minutes to provide any extra help.
The guy landed without incident, and I think he was quite overwhelmed with what greeted him, (2 police cars, 1 fire engine, an ambulance and 2 helicopters!), but equally he was eternally grateful.

Naturally, each incident has it's own peculiarities and outcome, but as Spitoon says, we're trained (in our case once a month :ooh: ) , to handle a wide variation of scenarios and it's very satisfying to see it's worth the time and effort put into it all when it comes to the crunch. :ok:

[Pie Man]

As I might be on the other end of the radio for your 'supposed trip' I would do the following:

When I had you identified I would give you a heading and range to Gamston. Next the direct line to D&D would be used to let them know what is going on and as there are always at least 2 of us on duty the other controller would be trying to call Gamston (numbers of local airfields readily available) - provided we can get the call centre to realise the importance of the call (but that's a different thread). The details would be passed to Gamston and I would give you the Gamston frequency in case you felt you had time to use it. We would keep D&D updated just in case you failed to make Gamston as they can quickly get in touch with the relevant emergency services - as happened about 6 months ago when a pilot overflying Netherthorpe noticed an aircraft crash in a field off the end of the runway at Netherthorpe (radio not manned).

Then it's home for tea and medals. :ok:

Regards

Pie Man

[av8boy]

but I'll let a more articulate ATCO tell you Why thank you! I'd be happy to comment! :O

1. I fully support what has been said thus far;
2. I'd only add one thing and that has to do with prior notice to an uncontrolled airport with a "fairly busy circuit:"

...but what about if the forced landing was at Netherthorpe, where the radio is often unmanned even at times when the circuit is fairly busy? I'm sure Waddington will pass me the relevant frequency and I guess a failure at a reasonable altitude will give sufficient time to play around with the radio, but what happens if I'm at only 2400ft and time is limited?


You already know the answer, don't you? ;)

We in ATC will do absolutely EVERYTHING within our power to make this work for you. However, the rules clearly state that we may not do anything that is physically impossible for us to do. Sorry. That includes stopping traffic on the M4 and clearing the pattern at Netherthorpe.

Do you NEED to land at Netherthorpe? Then land at Netherthorpe. You're going to do what you always do, a little cost/benefit analysis, then you're going to get it on the ground where you think it best to land. If NOT landing at Netherthorpe creates a bigger risk than silently dealing with the traffic at the airport, then land there. But if the risk of pranging another aircraft is greater than the risk posed by landing off-airport, then put it in the dirt. It's your call: is the engine running rough or is smoke pouring from behind the panel? The highest score in this game is awarded when nobody dies. Play accordingly. Remember, ulcers heal.

But then, you knew that!

Dave :ok:

[FWA NATCA]

Av8boy,

As to the uncontrolled field question, we attempt to call the local FBO so that they can broadcast on the CTF that an emergency aircraft is inbound so that local pattern traffic can scatter. If we can't get in contact with the FBO.

I've had emergency aircraft land at a US Air Force base, as someone stated, it's far better to land on a runway than in a farmers field.

Mike

[West Coast]

Unless the farmers daughter....

[Timothy]

.....collects bits of scrap aircraft, or needs material for medical research?

W

[big.al]

Thanks for the replies.

Av8boy - my question regarding the situation where you cannot reach the tower/FBO was really regarding whether or not the ATC unit attempt to transmit on the frequency of the airfield at which I am making the emergency landing.

I appreciate that stopping motorway traffic to allow me to make a landing there is a little bit much, but I was unsure whether the ATCO (at Waddington in my hypothetical example) would transmit on the Netherthorpe frequency to warn potential traffic to get the hell out of the way. Ideally I as commander of the aircraft would want to do that especially if the circuit is 'fairly busy' but if it means less concentration on flying in order to find the Netherthorpe frequency and tune the radio, then stuff that for a lark! If Waddington were to help out by 'parting the waves' by transmitting for me then so much the better. Hence the question.

[tobzalp]

If you come and read the threads over in the ozzie fr0ums, you will see that the big sky theory will save you.

But to give that some credit, if you are in a warrior and your motor fails forget the radio (unless you need directions to a hard bit of pavement) and save your ar5e.

I have seen 'IFER managers' in australia ask the most stupid questions of distressed aircraft that it amazes me.

You your self said it. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Aviate = do not die, navigate = know where u r going. In the event of the engine failure communicate = I AM IN TROUBLE GET ME SOME AMBULANCES AND STUFF (very far down the list but 2nd in importance 'I don't know where I am, send me to an airfield')

[Pie Man]

big.al

Transmitting on the Netherthorpe frequency is not an option I would use it could create confusion and I certainly would be rather miffed if another ground station transmitted on my frequency. One problem would be the radio coverage as I would not be able to hear the ground transmissions from Netherthorpe and could block out a vital call.

Regards

PM

[av8boy]

Mike,

We do that too. Obviously I let my point get overwhelmed by the follow-up thoughts... What I was trying to say was yeah, we'll be trying to get to someone who can make that radio call, but that you as the driver still gotta do what you gotta do, and in that decision-making process you have to consider the likelihood that you're going to be entering the pattern unannounced even though you already declared that emergency with ATC.


Dave

[Timothy]

big.al

Although I agree that faffing around in Pooleys looking for the number isn't a great idea, if the LARS unit pass you the frequency (a) you should have enough time and (b) you have a duty and responsibility to change to the frequency.

If you were so close to their pattern when it went quiet you probably should have mentioned your presence to them anyway (OK, you were just outside the ATZ, but courtesy and airmanship suggest that you either stay further away or call them.) If you were not so close you have time to flick a frequency and transmit.

There is a sense of breathlessness in the idea that in an emergency there's no time for anything. It would be a good idea to try and set that adrenaline rush aside; you will be a much safer pilot for it.

I once had an engine failure at FL090 in a TB9 somewhere just inside the North boundary of the Channel Isles Zone (about three miles S ORTAC). My girlfriend, who was a novice pilot at the time, went into a blind panic. I said to her "we are at 9,000', descending at 500fpm, nothing happens for nearly twenty minutes, let's just think what we are going to do." I then went on to identify the failure, rectify it, restart, cancel distress and continue to land at Guernsey.

I don't tell that story for self-agrandisement, but simply to point out that the best recipe for a long life in aviation is to be cool, calm and collected...if there is good cause to panic, that's just the time you need to be your coolest.

If you are at 2500' you are roughly 5 minutes from touchdown, and three minutes from circuit height. That's plenty of time to identify Netherthorpe, turn towards it, secure the aircraft, make your distress call, including a request for Netherthorpe's frequency, retune, rebroadcast your distress on Netherthorpe, try to restart, fail, re-secure and make a good neat forced landing.

There is no point in doing all your forced landing drills to perfection and then colliding with someone else (who is not expecting you to appear from the direction you are coming from, so is not looking for you in that direction.) It is you who is going to be ploughing through their pattern; you have a duty to do whatever you can to mitigate their risk.

Sorry, that all sounds very pompous, which it's not meant to be, but try and extract the message that I am not putting over very well.

W

[FWA NATCA]

Here is a good example of an emergency that went extremely well:

Last summer I had a T-6 (Texan) overflying at 90 when his engine started running real rough. He declared an emergency and asked to land at FWA, I suggested a closer air field (HHG), he could easily make either airport, but I had a better reason for suggesting HHG (Huntington).

The local FBO at HHG restores T-6's, in fact the owner bought over 100 from the South African Air Force, plus on this particular day there were over 20 T-6's practicing formation flying. We contacted the HBO, who promptly broadcasted on the CTAF that a T-6 was overhead descending out of 70 for the airport with an engine problem, all other traffic scattered and the FBO reported to us that the pattern was clear, gave us the wind, runway in use, etc. (Yes they are awesome individuals).

The T-6 pilot was hesitant to accept HHG, but I was able to convince him that HHG was his best choice, keeping the reason as a surprise. As he descended through 50 I gave him the wind, runway, and told him that the pattern was clear and shipped him over to the CTAF.

The FBO called us as soon as he landed and let us know that he was safely on the ground. Fifteen minutes later an excited pilot called us to thank us, he said just as he touched down his engine quit, and at least a dozen people ran out and pushed him off the runway, and over to the hanger. As he climbed out of his plane, 20 T-6s did an overhead break and landed, and taxied in, and parked next to his plane. Inside the hanger were four T-6's in various stages of restoration. He was one surprised and thrilled pilot. His plane was repaired within a day, but he stuck around another day to watch the formation training.


Mike
NATCA FWA

[lez]

if i was u i would have used RAF Finningley,large runway that can take anything.

[DeltaoneZero]

You can beat Local Knowlage huh? :) Nice one :)

[Pie Man]

lez

if i was u i would have used RAF Finningley,large runway that can take anything
Would it not be better to head for an airfield with fire cover - just in case it all goes badly wrong?

PM

[lez]

true pieman very true :)