Security at LHR... A true story?

[The Trappist]

An eminent shooting man recently had the misfortune to pass through Heathrow on his way to enjoy some stalking in Austria.
Despite the record improvement in exam grades of recent years, some airport security staff still have difficulties with reading and writing. By the time the paperwork for transporting a firearm had been completed, the flight had missed its slot.
As the aircraft waited on the tarmac, security staff appeared again and hauled off our shooter to account for “loose ammunition” in his suitcase.
“There isn’t any,” he protested.
“Oh yes there is”, said the security man producing a present which our shooter was taking for his host – a pair of cufflinks shaped like tiny shotgun cartridges.
“Replica bullets,” said the security man. “They could be dangerous!”

Our distinguished shooter’s troubles are not over!

On his return from Austria he encountered a wiser and more experienced Heathrow security man, with a new recruit in tow. To whom, as the firearm was checked, he explained the technicalities.
Lifting the .303 Parker Hale with strap and telescope from its case, he sagely observed to his pupil:
“Yes, that’s a fairly standard shotgun”

[morroccomole]

Had to endure a similar scenario at UK airport this summer. Having bought an 'Action Man' comic, at the landside newspaper shop, complete with PLASTIC handcuffs on the front, we were stopped as we passed through security. Duty security man had to check with his supervisor as to whether or not the cuffs were allowable. Whilst we waited for the super to arrive I explained to the man that if he confiscated them, I would just go to the airside shop and buy another comic for a new pair, but he couldn't understand. Eventually the super let them through anyway, having first of all played and tinkered with them in every way possible.

[phnuff]

A couple of months ago, my daughter (4 years old) and not travelling alone, was stopped going through security at LHR T4 and made to remove the safety pin which was holding her favorite teddy in her backpack. The safety pin was literally less than one cm long and about as dangerous as a manky turnip, and certainly less dangerous than the size 10's of her pretty annoyed father ! We didnt argue though, we just got another pin from a shop airside and Amber the bear enjoyed a safe journey. Was this a normal thing to insist on removing i.e. the authorities believe that a 1cm safety pin could be used for a terrorist outrage, or was the security person concerned just having a bad day ?

Maybe airside shops need their stock checked !

[18-Wheeler]

Shhhh!!!
Don't tell them that most of the wings we wear have two sharp pins to go through the fabric on the shirt.

Our uniforms are a deadly weapon ....

'kn gumbies. :(

[skydriller]

Cant agree more regarding so called security at airports - morons. It seems that now the word is out not to carry small penknives, nailclippers etc, and passengers are complying so that they don’t get nicked from them, that security guards are coming up with even more weird ‘dangerous’ items (and I use that word with incredulity). I have recently been relieved of a micrometer whilst passing through Marseilles security…. Made of metal, yes, dangerous –how exactly? What am I going to do, threaten to measure someone to death!!!! The fact that I also had a couple of bottles of Jack Daniels duty Free in a plastic bag didn’t worry them…..:mad: :mad:

The latest one was in the good ‘ole US of A last month….. 2.5mm, 4mm & 5mm Allen keys approximately 5cm long taken…….tell me someone how I can injure/maim/kill someone with something so insignificant.…..:mad: :mad:

Regards, SD..

PS And if you are wondering why I carry the above (and a few other small items) in my briefcase with me around the world; Im an Engineer & trying to find certain metric tools in certain parts of the world is impossible, so I carry them.

[Thrush]

Upon passing through a UK regional airport recently, minus my Swiss Army knife and Leatherman that used to be in my nav bag, I was amazed to see guy in a flying suit being allowed through with one of those knives on his leg. He had lots of bages on so I could ascertain he was not a military pilot, but a Private Pilot who was wearing a flying suit. He was not even questioned about the knife.......

I queried this with the guard on duty and was informed that it was allowed as "It is part of his equipment".

Rubbish.

I would suggest my Swiss Army knife and Leatherman Tool are part of my kit, possibly to a greater extent than this guy's dagger.

What is going on?

In another incident, we had operated a flight from a Greek destination into LGW and then had to position on BA back to MAN. We therefore had to go landside to get our tickets. Upon going back airside, all the Flight Attentants had their corkscrews confiscated after a big furore. These girls had been up all night and I felt slightly sorry for the guard who'd wound them up and incurred the wrath of seven Scousers and Mancunians!

They still had to hand them over and buy new ones at their own expense.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[phnuff]

Don't tell them that most of the wings we wear have two sharp pins to go through the fabric on the shirt.

You bad people you !!

Of course, as all Brits know, any Blue Peter presenter could turn a plastic washing up bottle, a bit of Blue Tac and a polo mint into a fully working F15. Can you imagine, security let them into T4 airside, they go into a loo and come out with a fighter !!

[Evanelpus]

Phnuff

I am amazed to hear that shops airside are selling safety pins.

Last year my partner and I went to Paris for the day. The zip in her jeans broke and we thought "aha safety pin". We tried all the shops and was told that they were on the banned list of items for sale. Eventually got one from a BA check in agent.

[A and C]

Security is a very important issue and one that we should all take a day to day interest in as the security staff at an airport should be all of us who work in aviation , however these half witts and more importantly there bosses who invent the more stupid of these rules are bringing the whole security issue into disrepute.

It is a big worry to me that very stupidity of some of the rules that pass for security are making us regard this issue with distane and therefore let down guard that we all should have.

It is quite clear to me that the only thing that the UK security industry is doing is making work for its self and the only thng that it protects is the jobs of the managment who seem to let the tabloid press set the agenda.

It is high time that the managment of security was taken away from the publicity driven MP,s and civil servants and given back to the aviation industry and the police then and only then will common sence retun.

The other thing I would like to see return is items from my cabin crews first aid kit that the unthinking idiots at BHX security have removed , an action that has not made flying safer ...quite the opposite !

[Max Angle]

And lets not forget that whilst safety pins and plastic handcuffs are causing ulcers amongst the securtiy staff duty free in glass bottles is still being sold airside and airlines are still serving drinks in glasses. Both items could be turned into potentially lethal hand weapons in a matter of seconds.

[BigHairyBum]

Pants.

Thats what I think of security. The a/c hi-jacked on 9/11 were done so with a few small knifes (think thats right). So, proving that a small weapon being brandished by a scary enough person can do just as much damage as an enormous bomb ultimately.

So lets get rid of the small weapons.

Thats obviously the solution.

And the really scary people just buy a ticket, jump on a flight, and this time do the same amount of damage with a broken china plate or a bottle of JD or a name badge etc...

Surely we can weed out the real nutters with some sort of brain scan at the check-in desk for the terrorists amoung the passengers, and for the security personnel when they clock on.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrr...... :\

[Final 3 Greens]

I promise this isn't a wind up, but in the US at the end of August, I saw the TSA confiscate an oversized paperclip (about 2" long) from a pax in front of me - 'because it could be straightened out and used as a weapon."

A&C makes a very sound point.

[phnuff]

Evanplus - safety pins are available airside - promise. (especially faced with a blond 4 year old girl clutching a teddy bear)

[Rwy in Sight]

In a few hours I would be going through security in a brand new Southeastern European Airport. Just the idea of using this airport give me a headache let alone having to deal with people that believe they are emperors and Gods on earth.

I feel that they over-enjoy the sens of authority and control their job provide and they consider it an extra benefit. For a short period of time I thought about the idea of them having a target number of items to be confiscated. So they just search and search and confiscate everything they can -inventing few regulations they like to justify any actions.

I have no problems with people they are think are God provided they cause no problems to me. Unfortunately they are paid more than decent salaries from the airport taxes we pay and replacing a confiscated item costs me money.

And we only have to remember the guy who carry on board a shoe bomb despite all security checks...

I would stop here because the next thought would land me in very hot water...


Rwy in Sight

[Load Toad]

I've had my pen type microscope (that I use in my job) liberated by security staff and I'm scared to carry nail clippers anymore incase I get arrested.....
I can eat on board with a plastic knife - yet I could stab you in the eye with the metal fork.....
I can't take a safety pin but I can beat you over the head with the duty free bottles.....

Time for a little sense?

[Feather #3]

Thrush,

You'll be happy to know that a mate was threatened by arrest with Kiwi Customs! He arrived from Norfolk Island in his RV-6 wearing his flying suit.

It's a mil suit he's had for years and has his 20++ year old survival knife in the pocket. His 'crime' was importing an un-declared dangerous weapon into Kiwi-land. Bit hard to declare as they nabbed him as he stepped from the plane before he'd even shown tham any paperwork??

Don't we all feel safer? :confused:

G'day ;)

[Hay Ewe]

Soon some person will get on a flight, cause a drama using Judo / Karate or some other kind of martial arts and then they will ban people on flights!!

[lofty50]

Had my brand new rotary can opener confiscated at Hong Kong about 18 months ago!!!!!
:uhoh:

[Load Toad]

That was yours?

All the confiscated stuff can be picked up at good prices at Lam Fat Hoi's in Mong Kok.:cool:

[NdekePilot]

I think the clever security personel should confiscate the pilots wot drive the plane cos who knows wot they could do if they managed to get to the controls......
And as for those lethal emeryboard nailfiles that the cabincrew carry.......pphhwwwooooooaaaaar.....the mind boggles.
:ok:

[Voodoo 3]

Went through Brum a while ago and had a pair of nail scissors taken off me. She said I could put them in the hold if I wanted, The fact that we have a small axe in the flight deck as standard equipment didnt seem to sway the girl, my clippers were grounded.......

[boofhead]

Hey you, it has already happened, in Algeria earlier this year (think that is right). Three guys burst into the flight deck of a 737 and began beating up the pilots. The only thing to save the situation was that they did not close the door behind them so the cabin crew managed to pull them out. Imagine if they were actual terrorists and planned an attack, doing it right. What defences do we have against that? Obviously not the airport security, which is so far beyond stupid they need another word to describe it. Makes you wonder why seemingly intelligent people set up and run such an insane system. Don't they see it does not work and never will? The only people who can make a difference is the crew. The first line of defence is the cabin crew, who must know that they are the only ones who can stop a hijack or attack by a crazy. Of course the authorities have made it difficult, since the crew cannot have any weapons while the attacker is free to take on what he wants (I saw a cooking show and a knife that does not show on xray is used by top chefs that is way sharper than a metal one...shudder). Have any of you cabin crew been given training in defending the cabin? Didn't think so. Hint, a can of beans in a sock can put the bad guy down.

Even the TSA has to admit that almost as many guns are getting through as did when Argenbrite was running the show, so all the hype and expense is a total waste of effort. It reminds me of the "war" on drugs (or terror), which can also never be won, but gives government the opportunity to build up their power and influence, using my tax dollars. The second line of defence is the cockpit crew who must never under any circumstances, let any criminal onto the flight deck. Anything happens, throw the bolt and cut off comms with the cabin, land at nearest airport. Let the police handle it.

The real problem was that after Sep 11 the authorities had a chance to do it right and blew it. They decided to treat all of us as if WE were the problem, instead of the ones who needed to be protected. The real criminals are laughing on their way through "security" while the children, old ladies and crew are given the treatment.

Bah humbug says I.

[teedub]

Oh yes my flying brethren the mighty flashlight almost gets re-routed to monkok!!......stopped at jfk whilst positioning and told my mighty big magnum flashlight was "too big" After a ridiculous discussion with security was told I could put the offending article in a locked cabinet monitored by the lead F/A........I can assure all that she was most happy to take the mighty "torch" and thus our flight could leave safe in the knowledge that should any pilot ever need a really good solid flashlight ie god forbid a ditching/double gen fail etc etc...that thanks to the brilliance and inteligence of our federally (now understaffed) tsa light shall be shed only in small doses.........I wonder what would happen if someone was to bring "replacement" axes thru security......although I was impressed by one tsa guy at the jetblue security who rambled on and on as folks filled thru the screening about no baseball or CRICKET bats allowed up top........there's a guy with smarts.....probably one of the ones who'll get dumped in the cuts........arm the bloody pilots!!

[PAXboy]

I agree about the martial arts issue. Only a matter of time.

What I find most useful about plastic forks is how sharp they are! On a recent VS trip, I retained the fork and, upon arrival at my sister's house, checked it against all the regular dining forks in her house. The plastic was MUCH sharper. :p Since the plastic is weaker than metal, it naturally has to be sharper to make up the difference.

The other vital weapon that I take with me every time (apart from the duty free bottle of cognac) is a laptop computer. My current model is actually very light at only 1.1kg but some of the big Dell's weigh in at nearly 3kg. Imagine holding the laptop (with the screen closed) and bashing someone across the head with it?

Once TSA and British Airports Ar$eholes plc get this peice of information, I am sure that all biz pax will have their laptops placed in a secure cargo container until arrival. :E

[Ivan Taclue]

Some months ago I started a similar post on the goings-on at STN. A huge response was the result. I am "pleased" to see that other airports suffer the same indignities c.q. stupidities.

But how can we stop it?:{

Check: Wots going on with officialdom at STN in the airports forum.

Why that got moved but this posting remains in the Rumours forum I don't know.

[Woofrey]

Great stuff guys, some classic examples of no brainers out there. However, I do try to see both sides of any situation and feel a certain sympathy for some of the Security personnel. They're not all jobsworths but do have to apply the regulations laid down by the good old DfT - hence the scissors, clippers, knives and forks fiasco. I can imagine the outcry from certain media sections if the Security personnel did miss these items and they were taken through by those nice, helpful journalists who like to test security from time to time, you know "Airport Security fail to detect banned weapons !" - I use the term weapons loosley !

Instead of whinging on and on about the airport security and the nail files, etc issues why not have a pop at the guys who are really making the rules - the Department for Transport. They're the ones issuing all the directives- and they don't give a stuff about any of the practicalities and costs.

........but I do think someone needs to have word with the guy who stopped the plastic handcuffs !!

[Coconuts]

Having just returned from America & having gone through security umpteen times (you don't have to go through security at LHR to find it a nightmare, you just have to go there) :eek: I found security in America and LHR fairly okay. Any problems I've had in America I've relayed to TSA & my first reply has been very courteous, infact it is good that the TSA are interested in receiving pax feedback and if people have problems they should use this channel to air their views.

I was aware that security's habit of insisting people take off their shoes was not supposed to be permitted anymore. Therefore I found it hard to understand why twice I still had to go through security barefoot (well once in flightsocks), I did not feel in a position to query security at the time, I just wanted to get on the bl**dy plane. I still have to read the TSA's reply to my second query but I'm sure they'll be as courteous as ever & they have reassurred me that through pax feedback they are made aware of errant screeners & teams and will act upon repeat complaints accordingly, as they will use complaints to improve their service. Remember no matter how power struck some security get the main reason there there is for your security & that of your fellow pax. Treating them as friends rather than foe & using common sense when packing will go along way to ensure you have a smooth ride through security. Incidentally on the TSA website, I'll post the URL later, you can get ideas on how to pack that will make everyone's life easier.

As promised, some of the tips aren't as common sensy as one might think.

www.TSATravelTips.us

[B Sousa]

Boofhead writes:"The real problem was that after Sep 11 the authorities had a chance to do it right and blew it. They decided to treat all of us as if WE were the problem, instead of the ones who needed to be protected. The real criminals are laughing on their way through "security" while the children, old ladies and crew are given the treatment."


Bravo......But doing things correct is not Politically correct..

[goatface]

Woofrey is right, it's easy to take out your frustration out on the security personnel, who are allowed very little flexibility in exercising their own judgement in any individual situation by;

a) DFT rules and regulations, and
b) Their own senior line management, who are very good at being invisible.
They in turn are sitting on a very fine line between being damned if they do and being damned if they don't.

It's a crap job, poorly paid, and should they screw up once in any respect, they're shown the door.

The DFT should be more accountable to the travelling public and the airlines/staff, perhaps if they were they'd get a lot more cooperation and understanding in undertaking the very important job they do.

Incidently B Sousa, what does a "real criminal" look like?
I'm sure that the next time you fly, the security staff would be eternally grateful for your wisdom.

[LatviaCalling]

I've had a few things confiscated, but my wife recently had a pretty expensive hair pin -- the kind on a spring -- taken away from her as a potentially dangerous weapon.

I've always wondered what happens to these scissors, nail files, etc. Do they eventually go on some sort of public auction, or are they distributed on a points basis among the security staff. There surely must be some items of more than minimal value,

Also, I have a gold watch with a thick gold band. I've never taken it off and the buzzer has never gone off. Is there anything about gold that it doesn't register?

[frangatang]

These criminal record checks are on their to Ba crew and management insists you must return the completed form ABSOLUTELY IMMEDIATELY to some fart in jockland,yet all foreigners from totally unknown and dubious backgrounds are exempt! If the information cannot be provided thens that is it for you my friend is what l would say. What a bloody joke.

[STS]

I spent the best part of one summer at LHR checking in tennis racquets. The airline I worked for had no problem with pax taking them on board, but T3 security didn't always seem to like them. The other classic (as I moaned about on another thread) was the security chap who wanted to confiscate staplers from customer service staff as we went to board the aircraft. In terms of banned catapults (as my pax used to read through the list provided by the DTLR I got used to sighing "it's a slingshot" at them), I'd be interested to know if anyone has seen a Bart Simpson type trying to smuggle one on board.

Not so long ago had a security agent at LAX asking me why my chest was beeping. Seemed he hadn't heard of underwiring in bras. He called a supervisor to check that I wasn't winding him up. I proceeded unmolested, but wondering whether half of this is now becoming a wind up with these personnel reading proon and having a joke at our expense.

[BEagle]

I was once due to attend an 'anti hi-jacking seminar'. To show how utterly pointless all this security crap by bottom-fondling failed wheelclampers actually is, I made 2 weapons from items which would easily pass through security....(which I've now desroyed).

Unfortunately the day job at the time precluded my attendance at the seminar; I had to fly instead. But the message would have been clear; assume that a hi-jacker will always pose a threat, stop the huggy fluffy 'talk them out of it' approach, just kill the bastards and learn how to defend the aeroplane.

Stop pi$$ing off 99.9% of the passengers with this blatant nonsense; learn how to cope should it ever happen.

[Coconuts]

How about the remark a friend of mine's father made to airport security soon after 9/11.

When security commented on the pin in his wife's brooch, he cheekily retorted

"It's not much use without the grenade".

Some people get away with anything, if it had been me I would have been frogmarched off. All he got was a slight verbal reprimand

[master slug]

You should check out Manchester Airport.

You are not allowed to carry a knife around the work place ( even if you do need it to lash down freight in the back of an aircraft hold ). Lets see, your not allowed to carry a knife and fork into the work place , for fear of stabbing that nice piece of roast potato on the plate.

BUT.

you are allowed to walk around with a transferring shotgun because nobody wants to take charge of it. Customs not interested Police and security cannot be bothered to sort it. because its just passing through.

Wake up Ringway get your act togther Now.

[trium16]

At Vancouver recently, had an expensive Mobile phone confiscated, because the battery was dead (and thus I couldn't prove it worked).

The Charger was in my Main luggage (i.e. far away from me), and the I must have forgotten to charge it!

They said I could collect it on my return, but for the life of me, what the hell did they think it was? It was only a small thing.
If I were a terrorist and it were a Bomb, wouldn't I least have the bloody battery working?!


It really really annoyed me but what can you say? Any protest and you are potentially frogmarched away (and perhaps ultimately banned from the country)

CRAZY

[Crash1]

Recently I had my nail clippers confiscated in MAN!!

"Take me to Paris or I'll give you a manicure." The security woman could offer no reason for how they were dangerous just that that was the rule.

Hadn't thought about the name badge thing before, will have to surrender mine at work tommorow.

One warning though if everyone keeps harping on about how dangerous duty free bottles are maybe they'll be banned too. Or maybe they make too much money for BAA, who run security!

[MasterBates]

Don´t forget that USA is now punishing the civilized world for a inner security breach on 11/9 2001 (or 9/11 for those that read backwards).
Because the US security guards let Atta and all these bastards slip through, they have since invented all sorts of daft regulations that have nothing to do with security. Who in his right mind really thinks the copilot is going to use his nailclippers to slowly remove the captains head, huh!.
A mate of mine recently went through JFK. TSA intellectuals threatened to confiscate his pen! Too heavy for a sharp object (Mont Blanc, Meisterstuck) they said, but decided to give the poor sod a break after consulting with a supervisor
TSA now has a bunch of MacDonald rejects on a high horse, no personal profiling on a large number of them, and after a headstorming (for brainstorming there has to be a brain) we are now not allowed to lock our checked in suitcases. I recently lost 2 Hugo Boss shirts, 4 DVD movies and a lovely Swiss Army knife in a leather holster from a suitcase that was in belly, in USA.

We need security, that´s no doubt, but many of these "let´s do something" rules simply do not work. unfortunately common sense is not so common there.:mad:

Latest from USA: There are now ideas of requiring a DNA sample on every foreign passport (sperm sample etc.).:sad:

[Dai Chopper]

Thank goodnes all those nasty weapons are being taken off highly suspect aircrew. It's a good job we don't have access to anything hazardous like a fireaxe!

[PA38]

I have read through the posts on this thread, and the thing that jumps out and grabs your attention is, how dare someone earning less than the gold braided self appointed gods pay in tax, question the fore mentioned gods!!!
People these security guards are necessary and are just doing there often unpleasant jobs, ask them what they think of pompous pilots?
I am not a security guard but my job involves having to pass through security checks several times a day, and the guards I meet respond better to be spoken too in a civil manner. Not in a how dare you question me, because I am above all this manner.

[BEagle]

Cr@p.

Professional pilots should not be subject to this form of ritual public humiliation at the hands of some barely trained MacDonald's reject.

No wonder many people are retiring early - the airline pilot's job clearly no longer has the respect, kudos or rewards it once did. No decent time off away from base in pleasant locations, no chatting to the passengers - just sitting in a locked box for a few hours, then going home.

In a few years' time, airlines will be finding it very hard indeed to find anyone prepared to put up with such an existence without a vastly increased salary.

And don't forget your lovely road-diggers' yellow jackets......

[boofhead]

It's not just the aircrew retiring early (I read a report that the TSA claims the only people who regularly complain about security procedures are the pilots. The passengers have bought into the bs that it is "for their safety").

These guys are doing nothing to make flying safer, in fact while they concentrate on the wrong targets, the bad guys get a free pass. Random searches reduce the chance of catching the terrorist, and so long as the only doors guarded are the front, leaving the rest of the airport unguarded, airport security is a sick joke.

The next time some crazies go for a strike, it will become obvious to the traveling public that they have been lied to, and people will abandon the airlines the way they did after Sep 11. A second hit to the economic well-being of the airlines will be sure to destroy it, so all of us who rely on flying for a living will be on the street.

It is important to all of us that we don't let these cretins win. Why make nice to the screeners, who "are only doing their job", when their job is to destroy ours?

Homeland Security is modelled after that of Nazi Germany in the 30's, and the above claim reminds me of the refrain of the guards from the concentration camps after the war (albeit I am stretching the comparison and do not want to suggest that these Bozos are evil).

Are we prepared to see the empire builders win or do we fight for common sense?

[Check 6]

Goatface, B Sousa and I do not know what criminals look like, BUT we know them when we see them.

;)

[peterking]

How about this one then. The BA8774 landed on time into Sumburgh yesterday. We delicately off-loaded the bags onto the truck. While putting the bags onto the rollers for collection by the passengers, a parachute flare of rather large proportions happened to fall out of a rucksack. Obviously the passenger was severely told in no uncertain terms that he should not have carried it in is baggage as it was an explosive & could have caused a rather nasty incident. The passenger then said that they always carry one as they were divers.
Upon further checking it was found that they had through-checked their baggage when they checked in at Heathrow.
Not only one potential accident but two. Not mentioning of course that the thing could have gone off while the baggage being handled at all the transfer points.
So why wasn't it picked up by security at Heathrow?

[bjcc]

I wonder what the crews of the 4 aircraft concerned in the Sept 11th incidents would have had to say about all this?
So you are a pilot..or cabin crew? what the hell do you need a leatherman for on a flight deck? Is it really nessesery to carry a metal knife and fork? OK they may use them in Harrods, but face facts everyone else on the flight manages with plastic.
Verious posts have pointed out that the D of T (or whatever its called this week) invent the rules. The Security staff have to interpret them, its not thier fault and if they c*** up then they can look forward to a trip to the local job centre at best and are responsible for something rather nasty at worst.
Think about this sensibly, if there is a blanket rule, everyone complies with then less grief is caused all round at the search area. Remember all the petty stupidity from proffessional pilots over police being allowed though with weapons they are legaly entitled to carry?
Yes Security at airports sometimes do take things a little far, the toy handcuffs being a good example, but as I say they have to rules to which they are bound. If its any consolation, I can remember BAA refusing to allow a child to take a water pistol in the cabin. Silly? Yes in a way, until you have experienced the joys of being squirted with a water pistol full of lemon juice in the face.

[BizJetJock]

The other factor everyone is overlooking is that the the security people have no way of being sure you are crew. Any self respecting terrorist would have no problem getting hold of a uniform and stealing or faking an ID. So the security has to assume that anyone going through the checkpoint is a potential hijacker, and treat them accordingly. Of course this doesn't make the policy on what's allowed or not any more sensible:D

[Why Aye Hinny]

beagle

"Professional pilots should not be subject to this form of ritual public humiliation at the hands of some barely trained MacDonald's reject."


How about the Midland captain that was caught at security up here recently smuggling a lock knife through between his belt and his trousers?

What do you need a lock knif for in the cockpit?

[Pub User]

Quote:

"So you are a pilot..or cabin crew? what the hell do you need a leatherman for on a flight deck? "


Not on the flight deck as such, but airside:

Check security of screws/dzeus fasteners.
Help open 'stubborn' latches on seldom-used panels.
Other things my cold and numb fingers couldn't cope with.

Actually on the flight deck:

Fix a broken microphone (often).
Secure wobbly gauges (no glass cockpit on some types).
Pull circuit-breakers, including a faulty one that had welded itself in due to excess heat.

After flight:

Open beer bottles.


My Leatherman has helped a lot over the years, and but for its presence I am sure I would have suffered more delays or even unscheduled night stops than I have.

They are such useful things I think every aircraft should have one on board as standard equipment.

Mine is now retired from flying but is still an able and willing assistant to me as an amateur mechanic and classic car enthusiast.

[boofhead]

No nailfile, computer, medal, brooch or pen has ever been used to hijack an airplane, and even the shoe scenario is suspect, since Richard Reid’s shoes were blown up using a controlled charge of dynamite before they were properly examined, and without even taking samples of the filling. It is probable that even had he been able to set them off, they would only have smoked. No bomb threat at an airport or on an airplane has ever resulted in finding a bomb, yet the security Bozos mindlessly react to these “threats” every time.

But look at a simple item that can be used as a weapon (known to terrorists and already used) that is not restricted at all; duty free bottles of alcohol. Think of the many ways this can be used to threaten or attack the airplane and occupants. Duty free purchases can be restricted to arrivals, easily reducing this threat, but no action has been taken and none will. Why? $$$$MONEY!!!!$$$$. The manufacturers, sales outlets and the airports themselves make billions every year from sales, and lobbying ensures that no threat will be made to profits. What is the value of 400+ passengers and crew compared to the duty free profits? The TSA (and all such organisations) are cynical slimeballs and they know it, offering protection from terrorism in return for us giving up our freedoms and rights, but totally unable to deliver.

Armed pilots? Sky marshals? Training for cabin crew in how to handle a threat? Profiling? Too hard. Better to assume that the crew and passengers, who cannot complain lest they lose their job or are put on a ban list, are the real enemy. And hope that no real terrorists are in the security line.

Now picture a guy standing in the aisle with a nailfile, screaming. The only danger is that we will injure ourselves as we fall down laughing. Over the last year alone a bottle, asthma inhaler, a fork, chopsticks, a cellphone, bare fists and a TV remote have been used in hijack attempts (the last was successful). How do you protect against these threats by banning them? Obviously it is impossible. And they miss real weapons (see their own reports) almost as often as the private security firms did before the TSA was invented. Even El Al misses real weapons (see the unsuccessful hijack attempt using a pen knife earlier this year).

The only real danger is from the TSA, which has the power to arbitrarily cancel a pilot licence without appeal and without disclosing the reason, sure to be used when the level of criticism is high enough. The government has run a very successful campaign to frighten the travelling public in order to expand its powers in such a draconian way. My hernia is in danger whenever I lose control on hearing the expression “Land of the Free and Home of the Brave.”

But yet there are those who cling to the hope that the authorities know what they are doing, and if they only give up enough freedoms and rights they will get safety in return. Sad.

[bjcc]

Boofhead
So no bomb threat to an airport has ever resulted in a bomb being found?
Funny then my twisted imagination must have dreamed up our irish friends making numerous threats to Heathrow one day in the early 90's, and then mortar bombs arriving on the aprons. Try watching the video of the little girl's badly injured body being lifted up by someone after the Frankfurt Bombings. Remember Lockabie? Threats were made about all these events.
Or perhaps the history of terrorism started in on sept 11th. The trouble with Americans is you forget the rest of the world has been dealing with this for years.
Leaving aside the nutters with home made lunchboxes full of wire and kiddies playdo, to my knowladge the Isralis have found at least none bomb, that one having already got past the BAA's security at heathow.
You are probably right, treat everyone as a supsect and the chances of something being used as a weapon to try to hijack an aircraft are much reduced. You make your point so come up with an alternative.
I will agree on the bottles from Duty free...but then as its from what I understand a big money spinner for airport owners, draw your own conclutions on the chances of them being banned by goverments.

[boofhead]

A basic part of risk management is to assess the magnitude of the risk. Then an appropriate defence can be determined. It sounds savage, but the events of Sep 11 in 2001, when compared to the number of flights and passengers that had been safely carried even in that one year, was statistically insignificant. The chance of any airplane, or any passenger on that airplane, being subject to a terrorism incident, even if the authorities did nothing to protect against it, is so small that it could be ignored. Of course that is not a sound approach, even if the only aim is to reassure the travelling public, but it is easy to over-react, and when the real aim (as I believe it is) is to grow an empire, overreaction is logical.

A bomb threat makes sense only if the perpetrator intends mischief, to disrupt the target and cause panic and expense. If the aim is to simply blow the target apart, then a warning makes no sense at all. The example of the IRA attacking Heathrow was a different scenario, involving an act of war, and there were several warnings (false warnings) before the mortar attack. With respect, it was not a bomb threat as is commonly considered. The bombing of Pan Am (and others) did not start with a warning (an actual threat to that airplane, flight or even airline). There were general threats, but nobody called in to say that they intended to attack that flight. The bombers gave no warning. It is still true that a bomb threat has always meant that there was no bomb, real or fake. It would be possible to ignore all threats, and react to only genuine explosions or actual bombs. The saving in time and money would be very real. After all the years of telling the public that only the government can protect them though, would make such an approach a political disaster.

So what can be done to provide a reasonable level of protection without driving the public away from the airports and destroying the airline industry, as is being done now? First, we need to go back to a reasonable level of surveillance, tighter than it was before Sep 11, but not as draconian as we see today. Second, stop the random searches and quota searches. These waste resources. Better to put the effort into what will work. Lay off the nailfiles, laptops and shoes. Third, develop effective profiling, to identify those who are likely to be terrorists and criminals. There are some airlines and airports that have this skill and could be a source for worthwhile training. Ignoring “foreign” ideas as “not invented here” is simply stupid and plays into the hands of the terrorists.

Fourth, clear all the baggage X-ray machines away from public concourses. Put them out back, where the detonation of a bomb will hurt fewer people.

Fifth, develop procedures and training for flight and cabin crew to be able to handle inflight terrorism and criminal acts. Sort out the legal liabilities for them and see that they have the right tools to get the job done. After all, when the airport security fails (as it has, and as it will) it is in the air that the real danger must be faced. Make sure that all crew know that under no circumstances will anyone be allowed access to the flight deck. Never; no matter what. The flight deck crew should, on the receipt of a threat, have a way to manually lock the door (if fitted), prepare for an attack (using guns or other means) and immediately land the airplane. Cabin crew must be aware that they are on their own, and not to expect help from the flight deck. Many of you think that this is already procedure, but until it is officially FAA/CAA mandated it is not.

Sixth, expedite the training and provision of guns (or other weapons) for pilots and armed marshals.

There are other ways to improve safety in the air, but somehow those of us who actually fly on the airplanes are hardly ever asked for our opinion. Meanwhile the empires grow.

[bjcc]

As far as I am aware there is no state of war, nor has there ever been between the IRA and the UK. Yes there were threats to Heathrow before the mortar attacks, in fact they used to avarge 2 or 3 a day, mostly from nutters, sometimes from Terroist groups, were they fake? Speaking as someone who worked there as a policeman at the time, I think I am in a better position to judge. Irresective of that, yes threats can cause panic and or disruption. You have pointed out that the effect of sept 11th wasn't that great in compasion to the number of passengers carried etc. Correct it wasn't, but the impact of a all the threats made can cause equal if not more problems for all concerned, for instance the loss of revenue. Its therefore easy to see why terrorists (which includes the IRA) use threats as a weapon.
As regards to Lochabie, the informationwas somewhat more specific than you imply.
Having said that, and disregarding your incacuracies concerning history, some of what you suggest does make sense, sadly I think we can all rest assured the chances of your ideas being used are low.

[techtales]

Ok -- working (at different airport from LHR) as computer engineer. Had just picked up a laptop from Airline staff and prepared to go through staff security to get to my van. Laptop went through x-ray but was stopped the other side.

"Can you show me it working sir"

No problem with that except "sorry no, it's broken - wont boot up" and then explained situation.

Up to this point all fair and reasonable , hes doing his job, I'm doing mine, Except now the turns into Mr Jobsworth "if you cant show me it workin you cant take it through here'

No amount of pleading, explaining pointing out how silly they he's sounding did he budge from the mantra. Called the supervisor over and he went through the same blind routine.

Finaly I gave up. Mentioned to them that I would leave the laptop with another Airline staff whilst I went Airside to get the van and pick up the laptop later. I was then informed that as the item had already gone through x-ray that it would have to be retained by them. -WHAT!

They started to explain that after suitable checks etc that at some later unspecified date I might be allowed to pick up the laptop from their security HQ If I could show suitable proof of ownership etc etc

At this point I did what most poor passangers or other staff were usualy unable to do, I started ignoring their wittering and phoned the Airline staff who owned the laptop and told him what would be happening to his laptop.

I then stood there smiling sweetly at the getting more confused security staff untill about 4 minutes later when the supervisor got a phone call from the Head of security at the airport asking what the F*** was happening to the laptop of the (Major Airline) Principal Manager at the Airport.

Funnly enough, after a short one-sided conversation, the Security Supervisor had a change of heart and let me carry on airside with the offending item.

Now thank the stars I was on this occation able to bypass the whole extended sillyness, - but I wonder to the inteligence and/or common sense being applied to this situation (and conversly how little being applied to real threats ? )

[SLF3]

If you look at the TSA list, it is not really unreasonable. You can take round nose scissors, a metal butter knife, knitting needles, nail clippers.....

The real problem with airport security is that it gives the opportunity for poorly supervised and often not terribly intelligent people, usually on pitiful salaries, the opportunity to make other peoples lives as unpleasant as theirs. When you throw in the magic word 'security' all control is lost - the lunatics are running the asylum, and any dissent by the enraged masses is immediately interpreted as a threat to civilised society.

Of topic, but can anyone confirm the anecdotal stories that UK airport police have on occasion refused to return weapons to sky marshalls when they reported for duty since they were clearly not sober?

[ILS 119.5]

I was on duty for every mortar attack at LHR, scared me to death. Airport security is crap. If you want to get around it, you can. Nothing will stop a determined person getting airside and doing some damage. You do not even have to get airside. A friend of mine passes through security at LBA everytime for his shift, the security don't know that in the staff kitchen (airside) there are steel knives (up to 12" long) and forks which can be easily taken onto an aeroplane. I remember one security guard saying to me "it's not you but it could be the person who is holding your family". I did not understand because I would not have to go through security to get a dangerous weapon on board an aeroplane, the weapons are already there (big axe). What about the engineers, do they use blunt, plastic screwdrivers? Do they use sharp knives? Are they terrorists? We do not know, but all I'm saying that there are far more other avenues to look at to ensure security. The passenger side of it is minimal.

[Arkroyal]

Not LHR but a recently renamed provincial dump oop norf.

A well known electronics retailer has a shop airside in the terminal, and has recently extended a welcome to all airport and airline employees to buy high street goods at a discount.

Present self to security with valid airside pass which allows me to gain access to ramp and aeroplane, flying it for the purpose of.

'No, no, your pass doesn't permit access to the terminal'

Why not?

Cos it's a blue one. You need a red one.

But why can't a pilot visit the shops and only restaurants on the airport when on duty?

Cos your pass is the wrong colour.

But is that reasonable?

You need a red pass, see?

I know that, but why can't a pilot go airside in the terminal? where's the secutity implication?

See, if you had a red pass, not a blue one, you could come through.

etc. etc. :confused:

[classjazz]

Ar the risk of presenting yet another story of "bone headedness" ( I came to this thread late) some months ago I went through security at Humberside Airport en route to Europe. My case was subjected to an "in depth" check and when the security man found a battery operated alarm clock, he became very suspicious. I was then asked to set the alarm and prove that it worked.
The implication of what he was asking me to do obviously escaped him. If the "device" had been a timer for something more sinister then neither of us would have been here now.
I tried to point this out but his reply was that if he didn't hear the alarm going off (without the subsequent bang - I presume) then I would not be travelling.
Some months later, the local radio station disclosed that the high security fence around the airport was only partly competed because of lack of funds. The interview with the (I think) Airport Manager over this obvious lack of security only produced waffle.
Nuff said!

[Puritan]

ArkRoyal - Weird that, coz my aircrew one has worked fine at LGW whenever I've wanted to visit the 'duty free'.

Aside - are you aware that the prices offered in the 'Duty Free' are typically 17.5% less than the RRP ( this is so that it looks to Joe Public like it's still duty free ).
However the best bit is that when you make a purchse ( e.g. laptop ) the retailer will give you a receipt - complete with a VAT number and the VAT applied - so if you, or your company, are registered for VAT you can also claim the 17.5% VAT back.... ergo your goods are being purchased for 35% less than RRP, and they still have all the usuall warrantees that you'd associate with a major retailer. :D

[airborne_artist]

Like many techno-geeks I've a fine collection of perfectly functional, but obselete mobiles.

One in my collection has two, working, batteries. One is a slim-line, the other about 150% bigger.

How easy would it be to...

[Arkroyal]

Thanks, puritan,

Sounds like LGW is a little more enlightened than NEMA.

It's interesting isn't it, that these shops, paying sky-high airport rent can flog stuff at such a good discount. It obviously isn't 'duty free' after all?

Don't suppose I'll find out this side of christmas, though, unless I get a free standby ticket to somewhere, and fail to join?

simply barmy.

airborne_a At CVT a while back, the guards insisted on seeing the phone function. Had to leave mine in the car once as the battery was flat.

[Mr Chips]

Arkroyal what do you suggest a security guard does when confronted with something that could be an explosive device?

"I see you have an alarm clock sir, but you have an honest face so I will guess it has no explosives attached"???

Of course they check electronic equipment... wasn't Pan Am 103 brought down by a bomb in a stereo?????

[jewitts]

The one that sticks in my mind at Heatrow transit was the poor old lady who had been stupidly allowed to board a plane in Canada with an antique walking stick. On arriving at Heathrow security (just ahead of me) she was told in no uncertain terms "you can't go through with this! It could be used as a weapon!" Fair enough I thought; this little old 70 something woman may well be able to batter someone with a walking stick. To my amazement, it wasn't the stick itself but the ca. 3/4 inch ornate brass ferrule on the bottom. The over-zealous guard produced from his pocket a pair of pliers and roughly unscrewed the offending item (About as sharp as my little finger) and returned the walking stick to the poor woman, who by now was in a state of shock. She whispered "Can I get it back when I return?". "No it will be destroyed!" came the reply. I must say that now I try to avoid LHR as a transit airport because of this incident! That and having to wait 45 minutes to pass through the single security point open for Terminal 4 transit passengers.

[Parkbremse]

I'm just waiting for the day when salt and pepper is banned from inflight meals, because you could knock out the Cabin Crew by throwing the salt/pepper in their eyes. But actually the whole meal plate in an even more deadlier weapon so eventually meals will be banned for security reasons also...

[Atlanta-Driver]

Many if not all good restaurant on the airside around the world carry full cutlery.

It's funny that crews and pax alike are subject to very personal and uncomfortable searches only to have nail clippers removed when one can go and "Borrow" a knife or a fork from one of these restaurants.

I do not disagree about the need of security but some of these nutters watching the monitors are just a total waste of gravity.

Worst security encounters and the most uncomfortable personal searches have been in UK.
I do not appreciate being "Frisked" by a perverted old men that seem just like to get their hands on younger men, especially after I have just walked through a metal detector without any beeps or dings. How do they justify these searches beats me.

Any other "It happened to me" horror stories???

AD

[breakscrew]

An oldie, but goodie........


A public school teacher was arrested at Heathrow Airport today
for attempting to board a flight while in possession of a compass,
a protractor, and a graphical calculator.
Authorities believe he is a member of the notorious Al Gebra movement.
He has been charged with carrying weapons of math instruction
;)

[sky330]

Got a question for 'security' guys
I got a friend, owner of a gym club, trained himself several hours per day! You see the style.
Nearly 2 meters and 105 kilos with no fat, and 5th DAN Tae-kwo-do! He is able to move at an amazing speed for someone that size and weight.

Is he allowed to travel by air?
Because I can assured anybody that he is far more dangerous bare hands than me armed with a nail clipper....
Him on board is definitively a security breach. Maybe, we should ban all bigs guys, martial arts specialist, etc.. of airliners.

On second tought, just ban all passengers, cabin crew will feel much safer that way

:}

[Go Smoke]

I regularly (twice a month) go airside LHR Terminal 1 to service some of the stands there.

I carry a variety of knives including scalpels, stanley knives, lock knives even a 10" serrated bread knife (it comes in useful sometimes) in my toolbox, also have a wide selection of razor sharp chisels and any number of other tools that could easily become offensive weapons.

None of this is questioned as I need this stuff to be able to do my job (I'm a carpenter)

I do not get checked on my way out.

Therefore I sometimes wonder about all the other staff I see there and how easy it would be for one of us to conceal a weapon airside for someone else to pick up at a later time.

It makes the hunt for nail scissors seem farcical.

[ILS 119.5]

Funnily enough whilst passengering home one sector I ripped an empty can of coke in half. How sharp is a piece of torn alminium? I'll tell you, sharp enough to penetrate the skin of anyone. How sharp is the broken wine bottle? You do not need to take weapons onto an aircraft. They are already there, and provided free of charge by the airlines.

[HZ123]

ILS you need to take stock of your life if such infantile actions cause amusement to you. I assume that you have little experience of the aviation world.

[ILS 119.5]

HZ123
Yes, little experience. 20 years in the business, once an ATCO and now ATPL flying for the worlds favourite airline. Do not question my experience or knowledge in the aviation business. I only give my views, whether you like it or not.

[RUDAS]

have you ever considered that maybe your average security/customs official isn't the 'sharpest tool in the shed'(excuse that attrocious pun!) on an intellectual level,so realistically,what can one expect??

of course they may well see a threat in your 2cm safety pin/blunt teaspoon/nail clipper/etc.
Add that with a hint of good old US xenophobic/racist/religious fervour,and thats what we all end up with.:mad:

[hasta lueGO]

Sadly I think many of you are giving the Security staff at airports an undeserving hard time. There are several points I want to make:

DfT issued a list of items after September 11th that as part of Heightened Security Measures were no longer allowed access into an Airports Restricted Zone or onto aircraft. This obviously affects airports in UK only; although many European airports devised the same list. As well as restricting items that are allowed through Security in British airports it also applies to equipment onboard British registered aircraft - hence why there is no metal cutlery on Britsh AIrways but is on another (unnamed) European airline mentioned in an earlier post.

As well as listing specific items the list says that anything else that might be used as a weapon should not be allowed.

Some items are confiscated because in the wrong hands they pose a threat, rather than being a threat in the hands of the person bringing it through Security.

Yes there are other items available which could, potentially be used against an aircraft, it's crew or passengers but Security is a deterant and threat levels continuosuly assessed by DfT.

If, of course, you experience something that makes no sense -then question it with the Security personnel or their Supervisor or manager. If there are unjustified miss-understandings then these can be dealt with by the management when they are aware.

Unfortunately in a time where nothing is black and white there will be miss-understandings, but let's work together and support eachother or take mature steps to get explanation or change . . . . thank you all - safe flying!

[Tinstaafl]

"...security is a deterrent...."???

You really believe that? Then why are you removing pocket knives from crew & pax. when they can buy a 750ml glass bottle of spirits? Or a can of soft drink? Or any of a plethora of items that make damned useful cutting implements? How about knitting needles? Do you really believe they're more dangerous than a sharp pencil or fountain pen?

Just what sort of deterrent do you think security is providing? "Hey Bin Liner, leave your box cutter at home. We'll buy a nice bottle of Scotch while we wait for boarding."

I have to be careful with my fuel sampler if I have to get airside with it. It (shock, horror) has a screwdriver attachment! Which, btw, is used regularly to open access panels, check Dzus fasteners etc. It's a tool of my trade but would be removed by 'security' twits. How about my kneeboard or similar? It's nothing to file one side to a nice sharp edge. No one would ever know. Same for steel rulers.

What about all the tool wielding people allowed airside? Cleaners, maintenance, refuellers & emergency services, just to name a few. Don't forget their vehicles. How many place do you think there are to secrete a gun? How many of them do you think are inspected? Hope you answered 'almost none' because that's all that can be done unless you start xray-ing the entire vehicle or dismantling it to its component parts.

Meanwhile the a/c's required equipment can include a crash axe, scalpels in the first aid box.... Need I go on?

Anyway, the pilot has no need to hijack an aircraft to gain control of it - he or she **already has control**. No security checkpoint removing screwdrivers or pocket knives would stop a pilot deciding to spear in to Big Ben while on final. Not even the much vaunted scrambling of fighters.

Face it, the 'security' show to get airside is just that: A show.

[hasta lueGO]

Unfortunately 'Tinstaafl' didn't seem to agree with my previous message about being supportive.

I think everyone would agree that Security will never be and can never be 100%. Yes the Pilot can fly the aircraft into whatever he/she desires, yes engineers carry tools airside but as I already said, Security is a deterrant to the general public. They see Security personnel remove items that pose a possible threat and it, on the whole, makes them feel safer - keeps them flying.

There are a multitude of measures used by Airlines, Airport Authorities and other airport users, under direction from DfT to safe guard flying to the best possible degree whilst keeping us all in jobs i.e. keeping the operations moving. TOTAL security wouldn't make any aspect of aviation commercially viable but i'm sure that the Department for Transport believe what they're directing is appropriate against the threat.

[Tinstaafl]

Deter the general public? From what? Unless you believe the general public plan to hijack aircraft? The 'security' of which you're so enamoured certainly won't deter those with nefarious intent. Why would they bother trying to walk a prohibited item on board when there's so many other things that are at least as effective as a pocket knife, or pair of scissors, or a knitting needle, or a screwdriver, or a spanner etc etc etc ad nauseum - and not restricted? And even if you make the list of restricted items so comprehensive that those on board are naked, you still won't stop weaponry getting on board. Either hidden in an orifice, or secreted earlier via one of the thousand of occupations that have access to aircraft on the ground. They can't stop prohibited items getting into a maximum security prison with limited population so why would anyone think 'security' will be successful in the open environment of the rest of the world?

Those who plan to take over an aircraft certainly won't be bothered by 'security'. In many ways it's easier now than it was before the paranoia set in:

* Crew no longer have items that previously would have been available to defend themselves courtesy of 'security'.
* Ditto pax who are also relieved of such things, also courtesy of 'security'.
* No cockpit visitors to obstruct access to the flight crew, either passively or actively.
* A nice, lockable door giving splendid isolation to Mr Nasty & cohorts once they get in.
* They can still 'game the system' ie send many members of the gang for many flights before hand. Some may be caught, others won't be. Those who pass through - & the items that pass through with them - are the ones used for the main event.
* Additional 'security' checks prior to training, or required for the issue of a pilot licence. Meanwhile you don't need much more than an 15 or 30 mins to learn enough to crash an aircraft where you want, let alone the licence. Planning to ban introductory flights? Or the sale of handheld GPS?

Instead we now have the stupidity of:

* People being refused access back to the same aircraft they flew in on because they don't have a 'ticket' - even though the charter or private flight doesn't use tickets, they're in the company of the pilot that flew them in and have flown in from an aerodrome that doesn't have or require 'security'.
* Nursing mothers with bottles of expressed milk having to drink the contents to prove it's not a poison of some sort.
* Medical equipment being searched for explosives even though the same equipment flew in on the same ambulance aircraft not 30 minutes before. No, it wasn't subject to an explosives test then. That sort of search equipment isn't available at most GA aerodromes nor is it mandated.
* Ditto 'security' threatening to disallow medical equipment because it has sharp items such as scalpels & needles. Duhh....of course there's sharp items - it's medical equipment for an ambulance aircraft, and sharp items are an integral part of medical supplies.
* How about having to fix better locks to aircraft as has been mandated in some places. That could make a big difference....if a miscreant forgets to bring his bolt cutters. Or a brick.

Every time we respond by eroding more & more of the previous freedoms we enjoyed then the terrorists win just a little bit more. Eventually we end up in a society indistinguishable from those coercive & restrictive societies we once opposed. All in the name of 'preserving freedom', of course.

The WTC hijackers wouldn't have been stopped by our current 'security'. They used a box cutter? So now they use a piece of glass from the duty free, or a mirror or whatever.

They trained at a sim. centre? Now they use M$ flight sim + popular add-ons to learn sufficient to provide steering cues to the a/p.

They need to navigate? They must be quaking in their boots that some bureaucrat will think to ban road maps.

Identity cards or similar? They wouldn't have been caught by any system currently in place or proposed. Even in our current high-anxiety state, a country *with* an ID card system couldn't stop a seperatist movement from bombing them.

The tragic event that instigated this paranoia has led to at least one beneficial change: It's no longer the received wisdom to acquiesce to a hijacker. Now the prevailing opinion from authorities, crew & pax supports all occupants using maximum & aggressive resistance to such an event. It's arguable that had that been the case on the WTC flights then the outcome would have been different.

Only now the only people likely to save the a/c are forcibly disarmed.