Who Controls The Skies??

[MajorMadMax]

OK, please bear with me for a second, I am an American, and am not a pilot, so I know some of you will say that is two strikes... I won't tell you what I do in the USAF, as that would probably mean the third!

Anyhow, as for my question, in discussions at lunch today a bud of mine mentioned he was once told that all airspace over the UK was controlled by the MOD and they would allocate which areas civvie aircraft can fly in. I guess he mean the MOD would tell the CAA where their planes could fly.

In the US the FAA controls the skies and allocates to the military.

So, is he full of it or is this true? I figured I could get a quick answer on this forum. I am sure I will also get a lot of Yank bashing as well, but it comes with the territory!

Thanks! Maj M2

[opso]

He's full of it.

We get given areas for air-to-air combat and air-to-air flying, but even then there's actually nothing to stop civies blundering through. We are the only ones attempting any control over the low level environment (up to 2000') as we operate a system where the military book in and out to make sure that we reduce the chance of crashing in to each other. Again however, this is generally free airspace, open to the civies and they do not need to book in.

[Surditas]

You forgot the Yank bashing there opso...

[Fox3snapshot]

Its OK we are saving that for our chum "B Sousa" in the other threads....full credit to him for sticking around and facing the music for his fellow countrymen! So MajorMad you are off the hook...

:E

[Surditas]

Yes Fox3, I've just visited another thread and see what you mean!

MAJ MM, very cunning ploy you have there, kicking yourself before we get the chance!;)

Hats off to you!:ok:

[MajorMadMax]

Just try and remember there are 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.) different opinions of what being an American is all about! Having been born and somewhat raised in Europe (lived in Germany, the UK and Belgium), I have a slightly different viewpoint of my country that many of my fellow Americans do not share. I don't totally agree with everything my government does, nor do I think it is always right. However, I have volunteered my entire adult life to serving it in the military (well, the USAF :}), and right or wrong, it is still the country I love.

OK, now that the US national anthem has stopped playing and the stars and stripes stopped waving, please allow me to thank Opso for the answer. To be fair my bud never claimed to be correct, it was just something he had heard I thought I could verify on this forum.

Cheers! Maj M2

[BEagle]

Most of your fellow Amuuuuuuuuricans probably have no idea where Germany, the UK or Belgium actually are. "I guess that's someplace out of state" would probably be all Billy-Bob Redneck might offer, in between gulps of 'shine.."Is they some Commie folks we gonna nuke?";)

[Surditas]

MAJ MM,

I am currently surrounded by a few thousand of your countrymen/women and I have to say that all of them I have met are thoroughly polite and very friendly.
I know what you mean ref service vs. government policy. The Aussie government makes it's decisions and mine is not to reason why.

[MajorMadMax]

BEagle

I hate to admit it but you are right. When we left Texas for Belgium, a majority of the folks there thought it was in Germany! Now, historical arguments that it once was a part of Germany aside, I seriously doubt many of them could find Germany on the map!

When I was back in Florida for my 20th high school reunion, I was talking to my old classmates about my experiences in Bosnia. To give them credit, many of them had heard of the place but admitted they had no idea where it actually was. I believe many thought it was in the Middle East, which would have been even more commonly thought if any of them knew there were Muslims there!

But, like many other militaries, the folks that serve have a much broader knowledge (and hopefully tolerance) of the world. I have my political and personal opinions about many international issues, but when it comes down to the brass tacks and I am out there with my comrades in arms, my loyalty is to them and not the ignorants back home. C'mon, give me a break...freedom fries?!? How embarassing!

By the way, being at a NATO assignment allows me to meet and learn from individuals from other militaries, which I consider one of the greatest benefits of this tour. Heck, I even have friends in the French armed forces!! :} I get the same crap about Americans from them and everyone else as I see on this forum, much of it justified, but I hope I change their opinions that all Americans are single-minded on everything...at least some of us try to be a little openminded!

Cheers! Maj M2

[WorkingHard]

OPSO - Your response is to say the least poor. Civilian pilots do not "blunder" into "your" airspace. If the areas to which you refer are open FIR then ALL aircraft have right of passage. There are areas designated purely for the military so one could respond to you by saying why don't you keep to them and keep away from the open FIR and don't just go blundering about? Just as ridiculous eh waht?
What "controls" would you advocate below 2000ft? You cannot control the few RAF a/c currently in service adequately, if comments on other threads is anything to go by.
But to answer the original question - the allocation of airspace is I believe the perogative of the Director of Airspace Policy and Military and Civilian alike are required to observe the laws laid down by the CIVILIAN Director in accordance with the powers granted by HM Government.

[BEagle]

Texas.....hmm. Well they probably didn't even recognise Yankee authority and still thought that the Confederacy held sway down thar!

And certain Texicans hadn't even ventured outside the ConUS very often before taking up office in that little white building in Washington!;)

[Training Risky]

Our TTAs are there for our use only, civilian ac have no right to be there below 2000' agl:rolleyes:

Just because the hierarchy and some procurement decisions are slagged off in other threads, please do not insult us with your uninformed comments on how we 'control our ac':rolleyes:
You have no idea how high our standards are from ab-initio through to combat ready work-up training, and beyond.

We are all entitled to use the open FIR, but the low-level arena is ours to train with as we see fit. Its is usually some gash PPL not using the CANP system properly who causes mid-air collisions!

And the Military Air Traffic Oraganisation (MATO) work hand in glove with the CAA to determine airspace policy.

[Captain Gadget]

Risky

I think that your post is going to attract a certain amount of flak.

Deservedly.

I haven't flown military ac for ten years plus, but unless this country is rapidly moving towards military dictatorship (in which case, can I come back in, please?) I think that you are spouting bolleaux.

When I did PPL air law (OK, I was 17 then, and 40+ now) the civvy rule was 'not within 500 feet of any person, vehicle, vessel or structure', unless overridden by the requirement to be able to glide clear of a built-up area in the event of an engine failure. As far as I know, it still is. Barring controlled airspace, everywhere.

Of course, I welcome correction if the military really do have a say in these things these days...

Gadget :ok:

[Bing]

I'm going with Captain Gadget on this, the Tactical Training Areas, along with the rest of the low flying system don't even exist on the charts the CAA produces. If you follow the 500' rule you can happily fly down to ground level in various bits of the country as a PPL, mostly the same ones the military uses, for the same reasons, no one lives there to annoy.

There's also no actual requirement for them to use CANPs. I guess that's why everyone's so hot on visual lookout!

[SASless]

Hey MMM....

If it wasn't for the USA....Belgium would still be a part of Germany....as would the UK in all liklihood!

I will stand by my mate Bert Sousa.....two of us against the rest of this mob....about fair odds it seems!:ok:

[MajorMadMax]

SASless

Keep that crap on the near-miss thread, if you would please, and good luck with your battles. My dad taught me to pick my fights wisely, some damn good advice!

Cheers! Maj M2

[Fox3snapshot]

Maj M2,

You, my friend are going places!

Your Pa was right and you have done well to follow his advice!

:p

[WorkingHard]

Risky - with that kind of response (which is totally incorrect) I hope to God you are not
1) A pilot
2) In the military
3) Have anything to do with aircraft at all

Dream on mate the skies still belong to all of us

[MilOps]

I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge displayed on this forum by individuals who frankly should know better. OpsO, if you are employed in ops then please get the books out and do some revision! Training Risky, the same applies to you too, and FYI MATO ceased to exist some time ago.
Captain Gadget is spot on in what he says, a PPL pilot under the provisions of 'Rule 5' of Rules of the Air can fly down to zero feet if he so wishes providing he is 500 ft clear of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. There are also the 1500' and 1000m provisions of rule 5 which are aimed at ac flying over built areas and large gatherings of people. It is not an exaggeration to say that there be dragons out there.

[Fox3snapshot]

You got me!

I will not claim to know jack [p**p] about this but my little network will be there!!

:ooh:

[BEagle]

Training Risky's comments merely illustrate how very little people like him are taught (?) about Aviation Law and Operational Procedures in the UK.

Personally I consider that the average PPL applicant knows more about the sub-divison of UK airspace than many graduates of the current 'training' system. Keep hacking away and cutting costs and corners and it isn't surprising that dangerous gaps in knowledge will result.

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

I share Beagle's concerns.

TR, are you REALLY a military aviator? If so, I am aghast at the apparent complete lack of understanding. Could I suggest the odd evening with the JSP 550 series (you know, the documents that have replaced 318, 318A et al). A quick scan of the UK Civil AIP might also be enlightening.

[ORAC]

The UK airspace regulatory body is the CAA, which is a joint civil/military organisation. The question of whether it is the civil or military who make a decision doesn't arise. Where there is a conflict of interest it is resolved internally, if it can't be, it's passed up the ladder.

For interest, the CAA manager for Off-Route Airspace is presently an RAF Wing Commander.

[WorkingHard]

ORAC - thanks for the detail. If the CAA is the regulatory body then the airspace is regulated by a purely civilian organisation (albeit that some military personell sit on the board). When you say anything that cannot be agreed is "sent up the ladder" - could you be more specific please? Is this to the Director of Airspace Policy? The DAP is another civilian is he(she) not? We must also remember that whilst some members of the CAA may hold a military rank it is absolutely a civilian body

[ORAC]

Depends on your definition of civil, on that basis the MOD is also a civil organisation. It is, after all, half staffed by civilians and run by a politician.

The Directorate of Airspace Policy (http://www.caa.co.uk/dap/default.asp) is the part of the CAA which regulates airspace. The Director is John Arscott AVM (Retired), ex AOC MATO. Small world isn't it? ;)

If you want a translation of, "up the ladder", see CAP 723 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP723.PDF), in particular Chapter 1, page 2 and the Joint Air Navigation Services Council (JANSC) and the Airspace Policy Committee (APC).

[Pontious]

F3Ss

Thanks for that,matey.I had to ask because one night last week I was approaching a major MidEast airfield and got a TCAS indication of an aircraft 1 mile ahead of us and 2000 feet above us but we could see nothing even though the viz was excellant. Once the sep. increased to 5 miles ATC cleared him to descend through our level,he replied and he was American-accented with the background noise of his TX's implying he was in a Turbo-prop and requesting..."a Uniform frequency instead of a Victor freq." I deduced he was military. On the ground after much discussion we decided to do nothing and put it down to a fatigued crew forgetting to display their exterior lights after transitioning from an operational area to a non-ops area.
On the return flight,2 hours later, we observed 3 items of traffic on TCAS this time all within 3 miles of us flying S&L and one climbing, but still no NAV lights, beacons or strobes displayed. One item that we overtook(he was 2000ft below) gave me particular concern because he was very close and if we had had to initiate an immediate descent for whatever reason we wouldn't have been able to see him. The 2 items that passed down our left hand side would have caused us concern if we needed to make a left turn towards one of our en-route diversion fields in an emergency.
I understand and agree with their need to disguise their presence in an Operational area but in congested Civilian airspace? At night? Is it really neccessary? TCAS is excellant and a lifesaver, but you can't beat Mk1 Eyeball. On the ground we each checked the published NOTAMS twice and found nothing about "Military aircraft unable to comply with the Rules of the Air" or non displaying of lights. We then placed a call to our Flight Safety people.

MMM.

Welcome aboard. It's good to see you and I agree with F3Ss, you will go far. It's a pleasure to read your posts and I look forward to reading many more.

SASless.

We'll turn your statement on it's head. If it hadn't been for the Brit's,
"Y'all be speakin Frenchie,now Boy!" instead of American.


:ok:

[WorkingHard]

ORAC - thanks again for the research listed. It is quite clear then that all policy is from a civilian organisation with input from the military personnel that are there on a seconded basis.

[MajorMadMax]

Pontious

I didn't think we Americans had accents, just you Brits!! :ok:

Sorry, couldn't resist...plus I figured everyone here would have a sense of humor. If not, then go requisition yourself one!

And as someone who is lucky enough to be with his family right now, when many of you aren't, please accept my thanks for doing your jobs so well under such $hitty conditions. I know saying that doesn't help much, but at least know you are appreciated!

Cheers! Maj M2

[Pontious]

MajorMadMax

I say,Old Bean! Are you trying to insinuate that we Defenders of Her Majesty's Realm talk funny? That's just not Cricket,don't you know!

:ok:

[MajorMadMax]

Pontious

My bad! :}

Cheers! Maj M2

[MajorMadMax]

OK, I know we take some flack about being somewhat ignorant of other nation's ranks and insignia, but I had to laugh today when we took a trip to RHQAFNORTH and after the LCDR that was with our group informed the US soldier that he (the LCDR) was in the Royal Navy, the soldier asked him which country that was!

But too be honest it was difficult to tell which Navy type was from what country, as they all had white shirts, black ties, and gold stripes on shoulderboards for rank.

As for me I may recognize more ranks from other countries than your average American (or South American as my Candian buds jokingly refer to us as), but I am far from an expert. However, I did find a nifty little program for my Palm Pilot that shows all the current NATO country ranks...FedSoft NATO Rank & Insignia program (http://www.fedsoft.com/ranks.html), but I've got news for them...there are 19 NATO countries at the moment (with 7 more on the way), not 14 as listed. Oh well, I guess I am not along in my ignorance, but at least I try...:ok:

Cheers! Maj M2

[Surditas]

I have to say I find the Navy a complete mystery. It's all rum, sodomy and the lash. That and Cossing the Line ceremonies.

As for accents, everyone knows that Australians are the only ones without one, it's the rest of the world that speaks funny.

[Ignition Override]

Pardon me for interrupting the Revolutionary War (1776-2003-?).

Thank Goodness that Wellington and the Prussian allies (under von Blucher) coordinated to beat Napoleon at Waterloo. Wellington hid a few thousand soldiers on the hidden slope.

But our 'American' cuisine would have been much better.

Until now, I had thought that Belgium was a town in Texas where they export so many goed waffles/crepes. We had very good pannekoeken in Brugge, Belgium too. And they were 'heel smaklijk', even without a fresh de Koninck beer. Brugge must be a suburb, but they talk kinda funny, like they all have a head cold. I jes don't git it. :confused:

[BEagle]

'American cuisine' - surely that's an oxymoron?

[Kiting for Boys]

American Cousin perhaps?

[BEagle]

No, that'd just be a moronic ox.

[MajorMadMax]

BEagle

That's what they were serving in the mess today...with gravy! :yuk:

Cheers! Maj M2

[Fox3snapshot]

oxymoron,

****** me......

Hate big words

\:hmm:

[West Coast]

Beagle
I really hope your not gonna sex up Brit cuisiune. I would rather eat another MRE.

[BEagle]

Hmm-perhaps, Westie. But then we don't define 'gourmet restaurants' as 'restaurants which don't serve hamburgers'!;)

"Toad-in-the-hole with some bubble-and-squeak, hot mustard and a little onion gravy, Sir? With some spotted dick and custard to follow?"

"Or will Sir settle for the Big Mac, with large fries?"

Personally I prefer the cuisine of the Italians - or your friends the French - to most of the standard British cuisine!

But 'Meals Recycled for Ethiopians......:yuk: '? Which bunch of grateful recipients of Uncle Spam's generosity was it who didn't even bother to open their MRE boxes - but used them instead to fill holes in the road?

[West Coast]

First of all, due to its ability to stop you up, MRE stands for Meal Refusing to Exit.

I damn sure am not gonna eat anything called spotted dick. Now what you and your fellow man eat in the privacy of your own home is your biz....

I'll bet there are almost as many Micky D's in the UK as in the US. A UK company did or still does own Burger King.

[Fox3snapshot]

The only thing that saved MRE's was the Tabasco sauce....you needed a lot of it!!!

But I did develop an awesome MRE bomb from the MRE heater pouches and really ticked off the US State Department when I let one rip on our bunker.......

:E

[BEagle]

"I damn sure am not gonna eat any spotted dick"

Not, perhaps, something Monica said to Bill.........

[West Coast]

Taste was obviously not accounted for.... or perhaps it was. Only the blue dress knows for sure.