use of MEL after closing doors

[absf]

Hi,
After closing doors ,during taxi-out...is the mel still valid for use??Not considering next leg dispatch.
What`s about this question and personal experience at JAR 145?

[kepor]

Once the aircraft is taxiing under its own power you are no longer bound by the MEL. You have despactched at this stage. Doesn't mean it's not worth looking at though.

[FlapsOne]

I agree with kepor.

Whilst the MEL is not binding after push back there could be some useful information in there that might seriously affect the rest of your day.

Always worth a look.

[one dot right]

Hmmm,are we saying then that after push back and before t.o.if you discover something amiss with your a/c, i.e.an HSI/RMI discrepancy/failure that could not have been detected before push,that you can legally ignore the problem?

I hope not!:ugh:

[spannersatcx]

I think the question needs rephrasing - do you mean once you are taxying for departure and a defect arises that is covered by the MEL that requires no maintenance action do you continue, then I would say yes.

If not then you turn around and come back and speak to the Ground Engineers, or even on VHF if you have it, as there maybe a quick fix to get you on your way, or it may require further investigation.

[Captain Stable]

kepor, that is a fairly common misunderstanding.

Unfortunately, the phrase generally encountered is "...the aircraft may not depart and airfield where maintenance is available..." or something similar.

Therefore, while you may have despatched, you have not departed. You may find, therefore, that you are not permitted to take off.

[411A]

Case in point.

Three engine aircraft departs the stand only to find the #3 engine generator will not come on line, indeed it will not feed its respective bus.
Generator is disconnected and departure planned with the APU running, all in accordance with the MEL.
APU will not start however.

So, crew returns to the stand for maintenance action.

The MEL statesclearly that departure under these circumstance is not allowed.
Should the crew decide to depart anyway, the PIC will have some tall explaining to do to the respective fleet manager, and indeed to the regulatory authority.

There are many cases where after pushback and taxi where the MEL governs...crews would be well advised to heed the necessary information and act accordingly.

Otherwise...goodby license.:E

[kepor]

one dot right,
I'm not saying that you can ignore the problem. What I am saying is that if a problem occurs after you're taxiing, the MEL is no longer legally binding.

Captain Stable,
I've always understood that the MEL is for pre dispatch as oppose to take off, I shall do some more reading...

[Ignition Override]

Just a suggestion for a time or two when you have pushed back and started engines, or powered back, and then a gauge or required light goes out, and you have only been fueled for flight in good weather (no "alt", "tanker" or "extra" fuel).

Assuming that this thing's failure allows you to call Dispatch and Maintenance Control, and the flighcrew can sign-off the deferral with orange stickers and placards put here and there. You can save yourself a good bit of extra fuel burn by going right back to the gate and shutting all engines down, or finding a place between you and the dep. runway to do the deferrals etc, if it is not an APU or whatever else is required (away from the gate) for engine starts. :)

[one dot right]

Kepor
so in your understanding you can "legally ignore the problem" then!!!

[GlueBall]

We have an approved procedure when a fault occurs after pushback; We are to write up and enter the DMI (Deferred Maintenance Item) at the next station, but only after checking the MEL to verify if the fault is DMIable. We no longer need to get a DMI number from Maintenance after pushback.

[wellthis]

My understanding is that the MEL is indeed for pre push-back, but also after it while taxiing-provided your operator has trained the crew and has the procedure in place.

In that case, if a failure should occure while taxiing for DEP, one shall pull aside (with GND's knowdlege of course), consult the MEL, and if it has no 'M' actions, then call MCC, explain the problem and with their blessing get a DMI number. Then make a snag entry in the left side of the log book, and in the right side write something to the effect that the airplane operated in accordance with such'n such MEL, the DMI number, put PIC's licence number, sign it, put a DMI sticker with the number next to the affected item-and only then proceed. Should something unfortunate happen on DEP, documentation has already been made. Of course, should the MEL has 'M' items for the failure, or if the crew has not been cleared for above procedures, then back to the gate one goes.

However, if a problem occurs after TO (generally assumed TO thrust set), then the QRH applies. Procedures will clearly vary somewhat among operators, but I'd very surprised to see folks departing without addressing the problem on the ground using the MEL which is a legally binding document.

[kepor]

one dot right,

You, as flight crew, especially the commander, can never "legally ignore" any problem.

I'm not saying that you ignore any problem, far from it. What I am saying is that once you're taxiing, the MEL is no longer relavant. Use your judgement at that stage.

[NW1]

Before Flight

The M.E.L. is intended to give guidance to Flight Crew and Engineering on items that affect the despatch and airworthiness of the aircraft.

The M.E.L. is applicable up to the point at which an aircraft dispatches. Dispatch of the flight is defined as being when the aircraft first moves under its own power.

After Dispatch, and Before Takeoff

After dispatch [aircraft moving under its own power] the requirements of the M.E.L. are no longer applicable or obligatory. However reference should be made to the M.E.L. to determine whether an adjustment to performance or procedures is required, or to ascertain if the flight may continue. The likelihood of being able to dispatch onward from the next point of landing with a particular defect ought to also be carefully considered before taking-off.

In Flight

The requirements of the M.E.L. are not relevant in flight. The QRH, the Flying Manual and other Operations Manuals contain the relevant procedures to be carried out. After an in-Flight failure and the Flying Manual procedures have been completed, the M.E.L. may be referred to obtain additional information relating to the defect.

[Fresca]

It is my understanding that the use of MEL applies only when the aircraft is on the ground. Therefore the MEL is valid until the T/O is started. After that it is the QRH. So therefore the period between the pushpack and T/O the use of QRH and the MEL applies.

As it says in the Boeing QRH Introduction (B575): "Non-normal checklists also assume: During engine start and prior to takeoff, the appropriate non-normal checklist is accomplished if an EICAS alert message is displayed. Upon completion of the procedure, the Dispatch Deviation Guide is consulted to detremine if Minimum Equipement List relief is available."

Best regards
Fresca

[one dot right]

Kepor
You clearly haven't met some of the commanders in my outfit!

[Flying_Tuur]

The MEL is only valid untill starting to taxi under own power. Period.

However, it would be plain stupid not to have a look in it for information, and in a lot of cases you will find yourself turning back to the gate fo technical support. But, it is not restricting.

Example:

1.
Before start one pack gets INOP. MEL: flights must be planned at or below FL250. Uplift the fuel and we go low..

2.
At the holding point one pack gets INOP. We have a look at the MEL, read the FL250 limit thing, and decide to isolate that pack and go anyhow, FL330. We will be keeping an extra eye on the pressurization of couse, but no reason to turn back since he MEL isn't restricting anymore.


Before taxi: MEL
Afetr taxi: an old thing called good airmanship

Hope I made my point...

FT

PS: It would be stupid of course to leave your homebase with a restricting item which maybe can't be fixed at tdestination, but that's common sense I guess..

[LEM]

Gentlemen, I think we all agree on what good airmanship dictates.
The original doubt was about the LEGAL aspect.
The answer is very simple:
it depends on the regulation of the country.
The problem is this rule is not always clearly published.
In one of my previous companies a Captain (under probation) was fired because he ignored the "moving uder it's own power" rule, and returned to gate and cancelled the flight unnecessairily.
In the place I'm now the above rule is in force.
In another place I've worked (Middle East) it was clearly written that MEL were binding until takeoff power is set. .

Just make sure what rule applies in your country.

LEM

[411A]

Spot on LEM, but suspect many will argue otherwise 'til the cows come home.

[quid]

In the USA, dispatch is not the defining point, nor is departing the gate. Legally, the FARs state no aircraft may "depart" with ......

Departure, for this reason (according to the FAA), means when the aircraft "departs the runway". (but you're not expected to do an abort for an MEL item.)

An aircraft is usually "dispatched" many hours prior to departure time. In the case of my airline, the Flight Release is usually generated 6-7 hours prior to departure. Many things can (and do) change in that time.

Many US airlines have a "Flight Crew Deferral" procedure. That may allow an airplane to "depart" with an MEL item if that item is on a "crew deferral" list. If not, back to the gate you go.

Your state's rules may differ.

[absf]

Hi,
I think that Flying_Tuur gave the most correct answer to this question.
JAR 145,which regulates the MEL,says that the MEL is to be used until closing doors,but if a failure occurs after that (during taxi-out i.e)is left to capt.the decision to proceed or not ,using "good sense and good airmanship".
In my point of view,this is a comercial response,since what is good sense to me may not be for you.
There are two reasons to go to MEL:

1.We have to see if we don`t have restrictions to the next leg(out of a maintenance base,etc.)
2.We have to take a look to make sure we don´t have operational restrictions to this flight.

Doesn`t make any sense depart with an item no-go even out of base (unless lamps,emerg.lights,etc.).

When an item is not no-go,normally some restrictions apply like the example given by Flying_Tuur about the pack.My questio is:Am I legally supported if I have an incident above FL250??


But I also agree with LEM...
Companies and countries difer in their rules.Some say nothing about this subject(is left to you),and some use the "moving under it`s own power" rule.

And finally.....don`t forget.....
If you don`t die in an accident ,investigation will kill you.....





:{ :{ :{ :ok:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
The following remarks apply to FAA definitions, and to the operation of US certified aircraft in conformity with the aircraft MMEL, and whatever portion of it individual carriers use. That means almost everybody outside 'Europe".

I do my best to avoid JAA, so far I have been successful, finding an N registered seat even in the JAA "sphere if effluence"

You need to know the FAA definition of dispatch. It's nothing to do with the Flight Despatch department,although both the dispatcher and the PIC have to sign the dispatch release certificate,commercial dispatch as in departure, doors closed, pushback, engine start etc.

Those who understand an FAA Operational Control 'Dispatch Release Time' know that is a takeoff time. For the purposes of Operational Control, and the application of the MEL, the aircraft is dispatched at the start of the takeoff, all checks and clearances received, aircraftc is airworthy etc. ( Same same CAR 233 release for an international flight in Oz)

Those flying B767/757 will remember/understand that STATUS messages, messages that can determine the "pre flight airworthiness", messages that might prevent dispatch,are valid up to takeoff, thereafter they are advisory, or they will escalate to a higher level message.

On the 747-400, any status level message that is a potential stopper becomes a higher level message after engine start, and the MEL has to be consulted for "dispatch relief". At least that's the theory, there have been continual fun and games over the years, quite a few software/data mods and "temporary procedures". Be smart, don't be concerned with definitions, regulations etc., consider any message and decide up to 80kts, if you are still flying something that doesn't suppress most messages from thrust set until aorborne plus time/height.

For pilots who were not originally trained in the US system, this has been a area of mystery for years, why I don't know because all the Boeing manuals I have ever used spell it out in language even a pilot should be able to understand.

Likewise FAA definitions/rules ---- "A pilot shall not take off an airplane unless ---- " last time I looked it was somewhere around Part 121.630 plus.

I long ago came to the conclusion what, for does of uz what spic English as de mudder tongue" it is a matter of "divided by a common language", there is dispatch, and there is dispatch.

Tootle pip,

[safetypee]

As previous correspondents have commented, it all depends … see AAIB report.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_avsafety/documents/page/dft_avsafety_507754.hcsp

Although the national authority and / or the operator may set the legal position or give guidance, their judgment on the MEL may not be in agreement with that of the manufacturer; particularly if the aircraft was designed / built in a country different from the operation or before any new ruling was effective i.e. pre JAR
In the above incident the manufacturer assumed that the crew would trim the aircraft; a reasonable assumption, but as has often been shown before, we are all subject to human error and have differencing perceptions.
I understand that the manufacturer has now incorporated an operational MEL DDG item stating ‘It may be necessary to trim the aircraft in yaw / roll’ under the MEL entry for dispatch with the Yaw Damper inoperative. Thus this MEL has relevance after pushback, and crews are required to consult it in full.

[arba]

My understanding and company policy is the same with FRESCA,
the use of MEL up to TO/GA is pressed. Even in lined-up position !