Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt

[747FOCAL]

Jet dives to avoid another plane; 4 are hurt
By KEN LEISER
Post-Dispatch
09/17/2003


At least four people were injured Tuesday when the crew of an American Airlines MD-80 took evasive action to avoid at least one other plane in the airspace just west of Tulsa, Okla.

There were 90 people on board American Airlines flight 490 from Oklahoma City to St. Louis when the plane's collision avoidance system warned of heavy traffic in the area and then ordered the crew to descend immediately, airline officials said.

The plane later landed without incident at Lambert Field about 3:50 p.m. But three flight attendants and one passenger, who wasn't wearing a seat belt at the time of the incident, requested medical attention.

Airline spokeswoman Julia Bishop-Cross said the captain told her that the plane's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System had warned the crew initially of heavy traffic. A short time later, the cockpit system ordered an immediate descent.

The captain told Bishop-Cross that he saw four military jets in the area after he made the 50- to 100-foot descent. It was not immediately known how close the planes were.


The collision-avoidance system operates independently of air traffic control on the ground and is considered a last line of defense against mid-air collisions. A Federal Aviation Administration spokesman said the incident was under investigation.


50-100 ft to avoid another plane???? Sounds like another distorter being confused. :E

[niknak]

It happens in the UK as well, civilian commercial airliners taking or being given avoiding action because the USAF havent a clue what they're doing........:rolleyes:

[West Coast]

Niknak
Your either a troll looking for a reaction or you have no idea about how a TCAS works. Which would it be? If its the later, that can be fixed. If its the former then personality flaws will have to be worked out by others.

[Pontious]

No such luck,West Coast.

The USAF has an atrocious record in the UK as far as airmisses go. Back in 1989 I had a near miss with an F1-11 from RAF Lakenheath over the Irish Sea. I could tell he was from Lakenheath because of the letters 'LN' on the tail. When I talked to the ATC Unit, they stated that they had attempted to contact the aircraft for 20 mins through various agencies but to no avail. In the end he had violated 3 Danger Areas, 2 Aerodrome Traffic Zones, a Military Air Traffic Zone, a Special Rules Zone connecting the UK mainland to the Offshore Gas Fields plus 3 seperate air-misses.

We never got an acknowledgement or apology and the pilot probably never even got a rap on the knuckles. But in the UK there's an incident every few months. The one niknak refers to involved a pair of F-15's and a B757 with over 240 pax and crew and, as with all the others, the USAF just trawl out the line
"We'll hold an internal inquiry" and nothing is ever heard about it again. They don't have a good reputation this side of the pond. Sorry.

[PPRuNe Radar]

West Coast

Arguably one of the closest ever and potentially most catastrophic near misses in the UK was caused by the poor airmanship of a USAF pilot (also base commander I believe).

Whilst I agree niknak perhaps over plays things ... you really need to accept that the record on this side of the pond is occasionally a cause for concern. They don't stand out above any other group of pilots or operators, but the blind assertion that they can do no wrong, or that the USAF will 'take care of things' gives no cause for complacency or acceptance.

The thought of how close that p*lok came to wiping out 200+ people in the air and possibly on the ground still sends a shiver down my spine. I hope you guys have put him where he can do no further harm. Test pilot for Microsoft for example ??

In context however, he is an individual, and we all make mistakes.

[B Sousa]

As to the USAF. I certainly agree they should get out of the UK, the UN, Iraq etc..........Let you folks have those places, it certainly costs me too much money.
I would prefer to bring them back home. BTW there is a bunch of scrap in Nevada that used to be RAF aircraft, take that back with you.....They seem to have left a lot of that during training here.

[West Coast]

Can any of you explain to me how any conclusion can be drawn to any degree of certainty that there was any culpability on the part of the flight of four aircraft? Niknak has it seems. The thread is about what happened over the central US, not Europe. If you know anything about the limitations of TCAS, flight regime of involved aircraft, etc then you would know to stay quiet. More information than what was provided in the story is required to make anything other than an uninformed opinion or a smarta$$ remark. Do you argue otherwise?

[5milesbaby]

West Coast - NikNak was after a reaction so congratulations. They do know about TCAS, its part of their job to - unfortunately much of its activation in the UK is against Military traffic, of which a large portion is USAF as we can't afford to get our own jets up... :{

[trackone]

Not only in UK it seems...

US APOLOGIZES TO ITALY -- US HELICOPTERS BUZZED BEACH
The United States has apologized to Italy after three US military helicopters swooped low over an Italian beach earlier this week, sending beach furniture flying and injuring five people.
The incident Tuesday over a crowded beach on Italy's southeastern coast triggered memories for Italians of 1998, when a US Marine jet flying low sliced a ski gondola's cables, killing 20 people on an Italian mountainside. Italian newspapers reported yesterday that US Ambassador Mel Sembler, after being contacted by the Italian defense minister, issued an apology and asked US military authorities to investigate the incident in Barletta.
The US Embassy was closed yesterday for Assumption Day, an official Italian holiday, and Embassy officials could not immediately be reached for comment.
Corriere della Sera said that the US Army helicopters, a pair of CH-47 Chinooks and a Blackhawk, were on a peacekeeping mission that began in Germany, and after two stops in Italy, was headed to Kosovo across the Adriatic.
The newspaper's account suggested the US pilots were trying to perform a stunt. "Maybe, after six hours of flight from Germany toward Bari, swooping low over the beach at Barletta, greeting from above the girls in bikinis, like in old action movies, seemed like fun to the American soldiers,'' Corriere della Sera said. "But in a country still marked by the tragedy of Cermis, even a summer stunt by a squadron in transit risks transforming itself into an international incident,'' the Milan daily said.
In the ski gondola tragedy at the Mount Cermis ski resort, 20 people plunged to their deaths after a Marine jet flew so low it sliced the gondola's cables. Both Italian and American investigators concluded that the EA-6B Prowler jet was flying too low and too fast.
A year after the accident, Italy and the United States reached an accord on tightening restrictions on low flights.
A prosecutor in northern Italy near Aviano said he was investigating whether the new flight restrictions were violated in the flight over Barletta. "We need to clarify whether it was a flight plan violation or if the pilots were authorized to fly that kind of overflight, which is prohibited by our laws,'' said Padua Prosecutor Sergio Dini.

[A-V-8R]

Sounds strange to me....

The TCAS does not warn of heavy traffic. Period.

For the software in our Airline, it will only guarantee a display of traffic out to 7 miles, although it MAY display targets out to 40 NM.

When traffic gets close, you get a aural warning and the target goes from white to yellow.

When the TCAS senses a trajectory of both aircraft colliding, it issues a Resolution Advisory to each of the aircraft. The target goes from yellow to red, and aural commands are given such as Descend, Descend, and a red rectangle appears on the ADI indicating the pitch required for the traffic resolution.

In our flite manual it says that any pitch changes should be slow, and not be felt by the passengers.

Sounds to me like someone tried to make the Resolution Advisory into a strafing run.

[YYZ]

B Sousa

Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?

Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?

It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...:8

[BigGreenPleasureMachine]

A-V-8R: Whilst I agree that TCAS doesn't explicitly warn of 'heavy traffic,' if the unit gave several TAs in short succession, it is in effect warning of such a condition.

50-100 ft to avoid another plane???? Sounds like another distorter being confused.

I was under the impression that TCAS attempts to resolve conflicts with 300ft of vertical separation (I stand to be corrected), in which case this particular corrrespondent can't really be accused of hyperbole.

Regards,
BGPM.

[Faire d'income]

This is just an observation but as someone who has flown a lot in both UK and US airspace I find it difficult to see an argument blaming the USAF for the majority of TCAS warnings in either country.

In the US the powerful general aviation lobby ensures the us professionals get regular Ta/Ra alerts from lost low hour souls. In the UK this also happens but to a lesser extent. While I have had an airmiss with a dopey A-10 jockey most of the problems are due to very congested airspace around London, e.g. going in and out of LCY.

In conclusion I don't think it is quite fair to indentify USAF as the only culprits, I am just one poor descision away from being a culprit myself. :ugh:

[B Sousa]

YYZ writes:B Sousa

Though some threads have to be taken with a pinch of salt, the replies on this one seem to be based on some evidence?
Whereas yours just seems to be a slating of the world at large partially the UK?

Like you I would like all troops to go back to where they belong (home) but only because the world could then be at peace (feel free to hold up candles), do not slate your apparent brothers in arms for no reason, unless you have some agenda you are working towards?

It is after all a pilots forum not a political one...


Yes The U.S. guys do get in a bit of trouble once in a while. It happens that way when you have so many of them all over the world trying to sort out all the Sh*t places and problems. I do think it would be much easier if all the U.S. folks stayed at home for a while. Maybe just to watch what happens when they are not out getting in trouble, buzzing beaches etc.
Agenda?? Personally I think that other countries should pick up the load, and if they dont so be it....The mess is still on the other side of the pond and most of the players are not or would not be a threat to us if we would tighten things up here a bit. We could concentrate more on getting the mess We have here in the states cleaned up.
Same game as fifty years ago, they buzzed the beaches etc and its a good thing or you would be spending Deutschemarks instead of Euros.

[Ignition Override]

B. Sousa: Right, and if Iraq had been indebted to the US (or to some US companies) for a few hundred million dollars (as was the case with at least two of our major NATO partner$), then it would have been very difficult for our govt to have been objective in its views. Can the Pprune managers create a symbol for the euro which is like our good old $?

Is it a bit odd that Saddam's attacks on hundreds of own people in the 80's using terrible chemicals (mass destruction potential?) have been so conveniently forgotten? Maybe those well-documented attacks using mustard gas, or whatever nasty products, never actually took place... ;)

But back to the main topic.

[Pontious]

On the contrary Ignition Override and B SoUsa oh, and Baterprat

The vast majority of the Iraqi's probably think that they've swapped one set of murdering bastards for another. It just goes to show that when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of a conqered nation, the U.S. military has learned nothing since the My Lai massacre. I mean,guys, when you got to Baghdad, what was the first major facility to be secured by the invading forces? The City Hospital?, The Power Distribution Network? The Water Supply system? Saddam's Houses and Palaces? The various and numerous Military HQ's? NO!! It was the Iraqi Oil Ministry! And they wonder why the Iraqi's and the Rest of the World are suspicious of their motives!!!

Anyway back to the thread....
A little feedback from the "guests" concerning results of the investigations of airspace and separation violaters would go a long way to restoring confidence in their abilities. Since this thread began, I've contacted a few friends and former colleagues who now investigate these incidents in the UKCAA and MoD(albeit somewhat restricted by the "guests") and one frightening re-occuring theme is that the"guests" never seem to initiate avoiding action.The main defence that keeps re-appearing in the statements read is
"...we didn't see them on radar.."
What ever happened to Mark1 Eyeball and listening to ATC?
One "consolation" is that apparently it's even worse on the continent.

As for the Beach Fly-by...
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?

:ok:

[aviate1138]

Pontious -

A few years ago, despite UK and US Military Topo maps being marked with warnings of intense movements on many small airfields with parachuting and microlights and light aircraft, a pair of Bentwaters A-10's managed to appear at 250 agl on the centreline of Long Marstons main runway, scattering light aircraft as they went. As anyone flying light aircraft knows in the UK the whole of the UK seems to be a low leval area for the USAF. Less of a problem now that the A-10's/Bentwaters have left but what with that and trigger happy Blue on Blue incidents whenever the US is in a battle maybe their primary Geography lessons should include maps that prove the area outside the USA contains human beings and aircraft.

B J - happy flying light aircraft

[Fox3snapshot]

I will say one thing here....

"Due Regard" (FAA Order 7210.3, 5-3-5)

For those familiar with it (especially in the Middle East area of operations) you will know how insane a concept it is and more worrying is that it is promulgated specifically for the American Military aircraft to basically fly wherever they want and by whatever means necessary.

Taking that into account we have on a very regular basis, airliner traffic and other miliatary traffic (as the Brits found out at the height of Afghanistan) being placed in dangerous situations by the random and unauthodox operations of the US forces. Every other Air Force in the world can comply with International ATC procedures in this and surrounding airspace in peacetime and wartime, so why not them.

I am completely miffed as to why the US needs special SOP's that are so dangerous and non-conformal.

Perhaps it should be "Due Dis-regard!"



:hmm:

[MajorMadMax]

Ignition

The Euro symbol is a piece of cake, just hold down the <Alt> key and type "0128" on a DOS machine and, viola! €€€€€€€

Pounds can be done similarly using <Alt> "0163" = £!

And you can make a sideways jellyfish with <Alt>"0140" Œ

Ain't computers fun! :}

Cheers!

M2
PowerPoint ÜberWarrior
Over 4000 slides made

[Wino]

In fairness to the chopper pilots, that is a VERY long flight for them and every 1000 feet of altitudereduces Vne by several knots, from a pathetically low number to start with when you are going cross country.

But again, as in all complaints about the US military. The solution is VERY SIMPLE. Start taxing yourself and providing your own manpower, and equipting your forces so you can do the job yourself. Nothing would make America happier.

Cheers
Wino

[pipersg]

Wino


The solution is VERY SIMPLE. Start taxing yourself and providing your own manpower, and equipting your forces so you can do the job yourself. Nothing would make America happier.

I think you'll find that the UK at large is and always has been very happy to do exactly as you suggest. As the country with THE finest Navy, Army and Air Force in the world you can rest easy in the knowledge that Great Britain will continue to support our "friends and allies" as you are so fond of putting it and also our special friend, the good old USA for many years to come.;)

[Runaway Gun]

Why is it that every country has THE world's finest military forces?

Has there been another world title competition that I have missed? ;)

[Jackonicko]

Sousa (and Wino and .....)

The USA made a great contribution to maintaining freedom and defeating totalitarianism in the Second World War. It's debateable as to whether Britain and Russia could have done it alone (maybe, maybe not, and if we had succeeded it would have been costly, long, and very hard).

But the Second World War ran from 1939-1945 (and the Great War from 1914-18) - note the start dates gentlemen.

And while most Europeans will forever be grateful to our US allies for their help, this arrogant "Without us you'd be speaking German" attitude is ignorant, historically dubious, offensive and counter productive.

Do you think that victory in WWII would have been such a walk-over without the Russians and the Brits? Without radar? Without the A-bomb? Without victory in North Africa? Without Enigma? Without the defeat of the Luftwaffe in 1940? Without the Wehrmacht bleeding to death in the Russian snow? Without the destruction of the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee, etc. etc.

Do we have to start reminding you of the dodgy US foreign policy adventures which we've supported, which would have led to complete international isolation without that support?

[WorkingHard]

Jackonicko - echoed echoed echoed

[laidbak]

As in pom vernacular, what a load of b*ll*cks...

It's becoming tiresomely obvious who has an axe to grind with the US- most of them putative allies.

As a former RAF pilot I know of plenty such incidents caused by our own 'chaps'. And whilst, but for the grace of whoever, I did not manage to cause such things (that I'm aware of), impromptu displays/'buzzing' were as much a part of brit ops as anyone else,including the Italians whose politicians disingenuously made such a stink over a horrific accident.

Get a grip, and s*rew the jingoist whiners.Wish I could be more diplomatic like West Coast, but his always rational postings as usual won't penetrate.

[flyboy007]

RunawayGun. Concur in full.
The rest of you do gooding whingers... Dry up. Brit Mil isn't always all it's cracked up to be either. Dry your eyes and get on with the job! Like it or not, everyone does things differently!
G'Night.

[Fox3snapshot]

Flyboy....

Does doing things differently mean it has to be done dangerously or with no regard to local procedures????? I think not.

If you would like some specifics of daily incidents and Airmisses, especially as the Afghan campaign continues, feel free to PM me, I think you may be enlightened in what is really happening in the big picture......!

:hmm:

[B Sousa]

Pontious Writes:As for the Beach Fly-by...
"IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!!" So what part of "IT'S AGAINST THE F*****G RULES!!!"is not getting through to you,Boys and Girls?


Ah Yes....Rules. I seem to remember streching them a bit in Military Helicopters. Sort of went with the enviornment in certain places of the world. I mean the Other guys only wanted to kill you...
Just seems to me that the attitude of pushing the envelope and the rules went with being a Helicopter Pilot or a Fighter Pilot. The ones who cried the most at us for doing so had neat little desks, with all the pencils sharpened and big bookcases full of F**king Rules. BUT they didnt wear wings.....
P.S. I like the U.K., I learned how to drink real Beer there.

[Fox3snapshot]

B Sousa....

Operators like you keep the editors of Flight Safety magazines in a job......well done.

:ugh:

[M609]

Actually the RAF manage to create a lot of paperwork when visiting foreing destinations as well..........
"AIP? Standing orders flying? Flight plan? What is that?"
and:
"No! No radar at an approach unit does NOT mean you can fly trough it's CAS at FL100 without talking to them first!"

It's great fun!

It's allso rumoured that a Gr.4 pilot confused his flight lead and a DHC8 in class G while on NVGs. Did not react to the fact that "lead" suddenly came straight at him with all landing lights flashing at full force! 60ft clearence when they passed! Gr.4s did not talk to anyone eighter btw....

:ok:

[flyboy007]

Fox3: No indeed, differently doesn't mean dangerously. But lets face it, beat ups, air misses, lack of SA etc are not exclusive to the US, or Italy, or Auz or Brits, or any other country. Everyone has been there. Some get away with it, some don't.I'm not gonna bring up specific incidents; I really can't be a*sed, but why is it that the everyone jumps on their high horse so quickly? I have cocked up several times. You must be a real legend to be such a safe, perfect operator!Congratulations.

[Fox3snapshot]

Flyboy...

Thank you, your recognition is appreciated.

:cool:

The situations you have decribed in your post are quite trivial in relation to the situations I am specifically referring to. Yes everyone cocks up, but when its on a regular basis with uncanny consistancy you really have to wonder.

Every other Military unit does their research prior to coming and operating in theatre here bar one, simple ommissions like ooooh!...planning all the transit levels to/in and from the tactical areas at non conformal levels for this part of the world and ultimately causing an incident on a daily basis or better at the height of activities. This not only put coalition aircraft at risk on numerous occassions but also the fare paying punters which did/does and will continue to happen.

:bored:

[DC10RealMan]

I have always wondered if the US Military had shot down an American airliner instead of an Iranian one, brought down a cable car in the U.S instead of an Italian one, sunk a fishing boat and killed American fishermen instead of Japanese fishermen, killed U.S. soldiers instead of British, Canadian, American trained Iraqis, and others whether American citizens would be so philosopical about these deaths. One gets the impression from various sources that provided only "Aliens" get killed then it is OK. This is not an anti-American diatribe as I have a lot of respect for the USA and its people, but I some times wonder about American attitudes and its lack of mutual respect for other nations.

[B Sousa]

DC10RealMan writes: I have always wondered if the US Military had shot down an American airliner instead of an Iranian one, brought down a cable car in the U.S instead of an Italian one, sunk a fishing boat and killed American fishermen instead of Japanese fishermen, killed U.S. soldiers instead of British, Canadian, American trained Iraqis, and others whether American citizens would be so philosopical about these deaths. One gets the impression from various sources that provided only "Aliens" get killed then it is OK. This is not an anti-American diatribe as I have a lot of respect for the USA and its people, but I some times wonder about American attitudes and its lack of mutual respect for other nations.


Great shot and what I originally stated, We should stay home. Then you folks can take the heat for all the problems......Then we can sit on the sidelines eating popcorn saying look at those idiots......Glad its not us......
When I read this stuff, I just wish I could get on the phone and say Mr President bring everyone home, someone else wants the job.
I cant believe you really feel those folks were overjoyed at shooting down an Iranian Airliner, cutting that cable on the Tram, sinking a japanese fishing Boat ( BTW why the hell wasnt he fishing in Japan instead of U.S. waters) and Friendly Fire incidents where allies were killed. I think most were the result of technology being more advanced than the human operators.
Attitude you bet......When you take over I will bring the attitude home.....
As to the comment on keeping the Safety folks busy. You bet. What the folks are involved in is dangerous stuff, folks get killed in training and combat. Its all part of the package. You want the package, you take the heat.

[BEagle]

It's simple really:

Grow out of the gung-ho, hoooah mentality.
IDENT BEFORE SHOOT


................and accept the fact that, despite Holywood and the endearing charm of your politicians, err, actually quite a lot of the world really isn't terribly keen on you. Sorry - now Have A Nice Day.

[Fox3snapshot]

Having just been entertained by another morning of wonderful airmanship I share your sentiments.

:ok:

[Mad_Mark]

( BTW why the hell wasnt he fishing in Japan instead of U.S. waters)
She wasn't! She had just sailed from Honolulu Harbour after refueling and was heading out into INTERNATIONAL waters. (WHAT!!??!! The USA don't own all the oceans!!??!! Shock, horror!).

After leaving Honolulu she set course for her training ground, well out into international waters, and maintained this steady course and speed until the collision. Meanwhile USS Grenville was at sea conducting a public affairs “distinguished visitor” embark for 16 civilian guests. She set sail with several of her sonar team left ashore (including the Leading Chief Petty Officer for the Sonar Division) and her sonar repeater display in the control room was not working. An unqualified crew member was on watch in the sonar room in a position that was required to be manned only by (or directly supervised by) a qualified crew member - he was neither. The fishing vessel was held on sonar for over an hour (on her steady cse/spd) before the incident (I am loath to call this an accident!).

Basically, if you read the full report you will see that the CO and other members of his crew (XO, OOD, watch coordinator, etc, etc, etc) simply fu#ed up trying to show off to the civilian guests on board. Prior to going deep, so that they could demonstrate an emergency surface, a periscope and ESM search was conducted. However, the full search tactic was not adhered to (only a third of the look was completed) and the fishing boat was not seen, even though at that time she was just over 1 nm away! During the emergency surface the CO allowed civilians to sit at and operate several important controls (including the helm and ballast control panel)! The result, one fisheries training ship sunk with 9 dead (4 teenage students, 3 teachers and 2 crew).

I am not saying that the military of other nations do not make mistakes, but it is the way the US make theirs, usually by not following their own or the host nations rules and regulations. I have seen USAF aircraft bounce controlled airspace, ATZ's and MATZ's in the uk on numerous occassions. I have seen them close up whilst on instrument approaches to airfields in the frozen north, as they make their way, disregarding their surrounds, to a nearby weapons range. We have all seen 2 pilots killed because they apparently did not understand the type of service they were receiving from the host nations ATC. We have seen them shoot up friendly vehicles with clear coallition markings displayed (even making several attack runs on them), we have seen them shoot up friendly forces in a designated training areas after being told not to engage. As I said, our military are not perfect, but at least we read and understand the rules and regulations, ROE's, etc. If we make errors by not following the rules we end up deep in the s#!t.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[Pontious]

B SoUsa

The world would be horrified if the U.S. forces involved in tradgedies such as the ones mentioned were OVERJOYED (your words,not ours) but you have to accept that as a well equipped,highly mobile,heavily armed PROFESSIONAL fighting force the U.S. Military is shy & seriously lacking when it comes to accountability, investigating accidents and incidents (but more importantly ,for the reputation of the U.S as a whole,the safety of their allies and people under U.S. occupation) your system is failing to safeguard against these travesties happening again. We are Allies,Friends and a bit more than a "Single nation separated by a Common language" or 3000 miles of Ocean. We turned our backs on our neighbours because we believed you were right and we stood shoulder-to-shoulder with you.
And for the second time in successive conflicts we lost more servicemen to your Military's actions than the enemys'. Just because you are the biggest,it doesn't mean that you are the best. Start learning from your mistakes for all our sakes.



:ok:

[Fox3snapshot]

I want to pose a hypothetical scenerio to you and tell me how you think the US would react.

Imagine that Iran had a carrier battle group sit off the US shores in International waters, with complete legitemacy to being there and launched their full aircraft compliment for a normal daily flying routine.........how do you think the US Government would react to this?

I know the answer, as I am sure most worldly people do.

So why then does the US insist on doing it regularly on Iran's doorstep for no good reason whatsoever when south of their carrier group is hundereds of miles of international waters that would give no cause for concern to anyone. This is not to mention all of the major airways that they have launched through that feed the Europe-Asia market which causes no end of grief to the civil traffic and ATC trying to determine what is where and who's who amongst 50 targets that form a complete furball on the radar.

An unnecessary and provocative posture that only continues to feed the hostilities in this region, and lets face it there are enough of them already!

:*

[Jobza Guddun]

Well done to the MD-80 jock for averting a possible collision.

Sorry, have I got the wrong thread.............?

[piniped]

Fox3....

you forgot to mention the P3's that trail their petticoats exactly 12 nm off the Iranian coastline, just about H24...reason?

We all know it's because the fact that Iran has some quiet subs, but doesn't the US have them satellite thingies?

One of the funniest things heard in these parts was a Pakistani pilot of an F27 asking "don't these monkeys obey any rules"??That was of course after launching the carrier air wing in "international" waters...that just happened to coincide with a pile of A class oceanic airspace with loads of RPT traffic around...including intercepting a C130 on a 7 mile final for an International airport. Last time I looked that airport was not outside the 12 mile limit.

Laugh? I nearly s..t.

Of course it's all good fun til someone loses an eye.

[Alf Aworna]

To get back to the original knee jerk press headline which caused all this... I think you'll find that the military guys did not cause this incident. Jobza you are 180 out from the truth. Still the facts don't make anywhere near as good headlines and its definitely not good for business so the journos blame it on those nasty fighters as thats what sells papers.

..Now you lot can get back to your oh so predictable Yank knocking :zzz:

[Fox3snapshot]

Alf....

Thank you we will.

:E

[B Sousa]

Mad Mark writes:She wasn't! She had just sailed from Honolulu Harbour after refueling and was heading out into INTERNATIONAL waters. (WHAT!!??!! The USA don't own all the oceans!!??!! Shock, horror!).


Excuse me......OK Fishing Boat leaving Honolulu......was that Honolulu Japan?? No fish left in japan?? No doubt if it were leaving Yokohama it wouldnt have happened.
(That is not an exuse by the way)

[piniped]

Hey B sousa....

The same submarine was involved in a very similar accident (I use that word advisedly) just a few months ago.
This time it was surfacing without due care and attention and hitting it's own replenishment vessel....roughly 50km north of Muscat in the Gulf of Oman, causing a bit of an oil slick.

It was actually RVing with that particular ship and still managed to hit it. Do you think there may be a small problem with the way things are being done aboard that boat, or is this par for the course?

Last time I looked, there were loads of different flagged vessels in all sorts of ports all around the world...are you saying that they should never leave their own waters??? Might put a small crimp in the US balance of trade figures don't you think?

So having a go at the Japanese training vessel for having the temerity to be in international waters is a non starter.

I suppose that you also think that aircraft should never venture beyond their own borders too....

[B Sousa]

Piniped writes:I suppose that you also think that aircraft should never venture beyond their own borders too....


Not at all. The hidden point was that had it happened in Yokohama, you would not even have heard about it. BUT since it happened near the U.S. every schmuck Attorney who ever got his license will be all over it as was the News Media....
Same with Aviation. Crash in Africa and its sad.........Crash in the U.S. and families for the next 15 generations are rich.

[Fox3snapshot]

B Sousa....

Glad you brought it up, so who do we blame for this ludicrous law suit concept and sue every man and his dog for any ridiculous petty incident in the free world.....ummmm, now let me see...oooh ooh I know!!!!!

Where were those shmuck attorneys from again that you mentioned?

:yuk:

[laidbak]

This one for DC10Real something or other....

I have personal knowledge of a trawler crew out of Anglesey,Wales lost in the Irish Sea some years ago. Enquiry(s) was/were held, and from the evidence available (including the boat being dragged backwards), the conclusion was that that it was a sub- and although official requests to MOD were made to no avail, that it was RN.
As there was never any official finding, the families then and presumably to this day did not receive 'satisfaction'- an acknowledgement, explanation, excuse, or any compensation.

Arrogant bl**dy Brits, no?

Cheers Capitao Sousa (Rock Spider ?)

[B Sousa]

Laidbak. You a skeeter beater in FL......I need to get another FL dude some work, any openings there??

[Mad_Mark]

laidbak,

I too remember the said incident. It happened in the days when USN subs were based only a matter of miles from RN ones. It happened in an area frequented by subs of several nations transiting to/from and participating in military exercises. The fishing vessel in question had its nets deployed. These nets are huge, spread over a wide area and are trailed a long way behind the fishing boat. They are constructed of fine twine that is invisible to sonar. As a result the submerged submarine was unaware that it had snagged the fishing nets until it was too late. I am not apportioning blame at the feet of any nationality, it could have been a sub from the Navy of several countries, including the UK.

However, as a result of the incident several lessons were learned and changes have been made both in the way submarines operate in our waters and the way fishing vessels are informed of any exercises involving submarine movements. When such exercises are taking place there is always a 'Fishing Vessel safety Ship/aircraft' on scene to warn fishing boats of the presence of a submerged submarine and to alert the submarine to come to the surface if a fishing vessel with its nets out gets within a certain distance of it. Non-operational submarine movements are broadcast on the marine radio frequencies. Devices have been developed to be attached to fishing nets to enable them to be seen by sonar.

The incident you have brought up is nothing like that previously discussed. The submarine crew were almost certainly unaware of the fishing net. It is very unlikely that the crew made such blatant operating errors as those on the USS Grenville. Lessons were learned and changes to procedures and equipment have been made.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[B Sousa]

Fox3three snapshot writes: Where were those shmuck attorneys from again that you mentioned?
I dunno you tell me......Is there something here Im missing.......

Mad_Mark
Seems funny, UK is involved and long diatribe as to how its all corrected and everything now smells good.. U.S. involvemenmt cant be corrected until all you F**ks get paid off.
Also you can fill it in is it ol or uc.

[Fox3snapshot]

Hmmmmm....I think somebody needs a hug??

:{

[Mad_Mark]

U.S. involvemenmt cant be corrected until all you F**ks get paid off.

You can tell someone is loosing their argument when they start getting abussive :cool:

[Pontious]

Fox3, question for you, matey.

What's the rules on external lighting displays for the RAF/RN/AAC aircraft when transiting to/from an operational area( note operational not exercise) through busy Civilian air routes at night whilst obtaining a Radar Control Service?

:ok:

[laidbak]

M squared:

Glad to have Irish Sea/sub incident corroborated, and naturally procedures were revised and must have been improved.
Notwithstanding, consider the scenario: It can have hardly been a revelation that trawlers were operating in this relatively small area - they didn't just appear one day. Plus, methods of fishing ops - details of the trawl methods etc. were also known. Thus, lack of due diligence on the part of the sub is, at the least, a valid charge.
Whether or not US and UK sub ops were at that time co-located, never mind anyone else, word unofficially (naturally since the accident was buried) is that it was RN. Somebody knows - SOSUS facility at RAF Brawdy - would have tracked this.
In any case, the operative descriptor is 'accident'. I don't believe even the US haters would venture to suggest that these, or any other incidents (aircraft, to get back to the thread), were intentional.
I take exception with the US military being unprofessional, under-trained,trigger happy etc. etc.
F.I.D.O.
There are bad seeds in every outfit, and bad things can happen to good folks, never mind fate in the form of bad luck. If you look at such incidents statistically, of course the US is going to have more such incidents/accidents attributed - they are so much the larger presence. In a previous incarnation and a few years prior to the Italian cablecar disaster, my outfit had a couple of weeks of ops in those mountains on exchange. Given the existing terrain, and that whilst adhering to the rules, it's no surprise that it happened. The crew responsible were not cowboys as even a cursory review of the investigation will show. The fact that the map was not so marked became the lynchpin, but as anyone who has done this type of flying can attest, this was of little consequence other than in the evidentiary/legal setting. Nonetheless, they were made sacrificial lambs due in part to the pressure exerted within Italy and in their parliament.. A few years before I was in, a UK fast jet hit power cables across a fjord- successfully ejected, but did not survive in the water due to a 'modified'goon suit. Then too, whatever military you are with, you'd be a damn fool to expect top cover. On my out fit we lost an ac and crew in low flying training- hit the top of a hill in the LFS (UK)- and, though lightly populated , nearly took out a farm. I'm damn sure had this been a 'foreign crew' - Belgique, Canuck ,USAFE or such, the same asinine bulls*it would have been vented in a forum like this, where one presumes people have a degree of knowledge or experience greater than John Q. Civvie. In this case, a comprehensive reconstruction was undertaken using the same time of day,weather conditions etc. and a definitive finding reached- visual illusion, and the crew posthumously exonerated.
I think a major part of the problem in such topics, is unqualified people running their mouths; the remainder is the folks who have a visceral and illogical dislike for all things american (could it stem from envy?), though some of them dress up their observations with camouflage such as 'I have some good american friends' etc. Like saying 'one of my best friends is jewish/black/hispanic/gay blah blah blah.
As of this posting the UN presence in Iraq, limited as it is, continues to be drawn down, and further sneak attacks continue on Coalition Forces. Apparently some of us here are of the opinion that the average US grunt should be proferring Hershey bars instead of M16 rounds in the face of provocation- and I'm sure the average British squaddie recognises that for the arrant nonsense it is.

Uh... here's another one.
What about the blu on blu F4 v Jag shootdown in taceval flying in RAFG? Was this 'their finest hour' ?
It was an accident, the chain of events reading like a classic accident reconstruction, which fortunately didn't result in any fatalities and occasioned some excellent jokes and banter for years afterward, though I'm not sure das volk were similarly amused.

Uh... here's another one.
What about the blu on blu F4 v Jag shootdown in taceval flying in RAFG? Was this 'their finest hour' ?
It was an accident, the chain of events reading like a classic accident reconstruction, which fortunately didn't result in any fatalities and occasioned some excellent jokes and banter for years afterward, though I'm not sure das volk were similarly amused.

[B Sousa]

Mad Mark......
It was up to you to fill in the blanks....., F**ks could be Folks......

[Fox3snapshot]

Pontious...

Good question and unfortunately I can only answer on a practical viewpont rather than a specific doctrine as we work with operatives from all Air Forces and of course most do things differently.

Certainly common sense should prevail whilst transitting to and from the tactical area's through civil airspace (and very busy airspace in this case) it would be paramount that the anti col or equivelent are displayed.

The problem we have found with the environment here is what defines the tactical area as far as perceived threats go, for example the US treated this particular sand drenched friendly country as an operational environment and would have flares etc. armed such that on final and departures on numerous occassions the skies over our pretty city looked like a Sydney Harbor new years celebration and the odd villa was showered in flares, this coupled with them going "tactical" straight after take off with the extinguishing of all anti col led to a huge thumping from the local civil and military authorities and this procedure had to cease. Additionally RTF was introduced for the US operators to confirm that there counter measures were "safe" before they were allowed to join the approach environment.

I know of one very very nasty airmiss (of many) on the tactical boundary entry point to the North East that involved a Brit and a US asset, with the US aircraft "blacked out" and at a non conformal level, but I think I have harped on enough about that, I have only mentioned a military conflict here, the civil/military conflicts were numerous also .....!

:8

[Surditas]

I'd still like to know what happened with the original near hit...


Interesting thread, this one. The US is the biggest economy in the world (I think California is the world's fourth biggest. That may change if Arnie gets in...) and, consequently, has the biggest military and probably the widest spread of interest in the world. This is always going to be a sticking point with anyone who is non-American, ie: the rest of us. Most Yanks I know genuinely believe it is their nation's manifest destiny to bring freedom to the world and seem a little taken aback when a nation doesn't equate freedom with having the 101st Airborne camp out in the backyard.
Part of the problem is the Yanks, being the biggest, never have to adapt to another country's way of doing business: it's always us that has to do it the American way.
Still, I like Yanks, some of my best friends etc...
One of the things I like about them is they are so easy to bait. It doesn't take much prompting for some of them to have a big dummy spit, take their bat and ball home and sook.

The Kiwis, on the other hand, appreciate good banter. They have to, what with the All Blacks being such a bunch of girls, their terrible beer, the weather and all those sheep.

Oh, and the Poms. Not just their rugby team, but every sporting team they've ever fielded ever in the history of history. That, plus having Aussies working in every pub in London.

:p

Also...

B Sousa, you mentioned what would happen if the Americans went home. In the case of Iraq who knows? Maybe the Shi'a would take over, link up with Iran and Saudi and create an Arab super state.
Maybe the Arabs would fall back on what they do best: fighting each other.
For me, it would mean back home to good old Oz and a happy boy I'd be.
I can tell you a war in Iraq or no war in Iraq made not a bit of difference to Australia, but we are here anyway, listening to people like you bleat on about America "carrying the can" for everyone else.
I do think the world is a better place without Uncle Saddam and I do think Iraq can emerge as a modern democracy and an example to the rest of the Arab world. I don't think we can conquer every country that disagrees with you. Some people don't like you or disagree with you. Might as well accept it and move on.

[B Sousa]

Have no problem accepting it. Just think its about time We did back off and stay at home more often. Then if France wants the place, go for it. Problems somewhere else let the neighbors deal with it.
If it becomes a problem to us or a threat here from a distance? No troops, just eliminate the problem.
We can watch it here on the tube....

[Surditas]

Ah, but if you did leave the Middle East and decided to nuke it, where would you get your oil for those SUV's everyone over there drives?

Those pesky Frenchies are a problem too. Most of the time they just seem to want to confound we English speakers. Of course, there are quite a few Muslims in France, one of the biggest European populations I believe. Most of them vote, too, so the French government probably took them into account when it decided to vote "non" in the UNSC. Democracy, I supose. Mainly though, I think it was to annoy you folks.
A question. The French disagreed with you and on the telly from the US we saw French wine tipped into sewers and chips called "freedom fries". I seem to recall that the Turks didn't allow the use of Turkey as a FOB for OIF. Why weren't Turkish restaurants blacklisted and kebabs renamed?
Look, I supose my point is that other countries will help you, Australia and the UK are two examples and there are others currently in Iraq. Sure, the US is putting in the biggest effort, but do you expect Australia, a country with a population of less than 20 million, to provide 250,000 troops? We were here, pulling our weight in Iraq during the war and now in the "peace". We've got problems of our own to deal with (Jemaah Islamiah, the basket case that is the Pacific) that we should be looking to instead of Iraq and yet we remain here in the Sandpit. Don't try and convince me that the US is here on its own, or that you are the only country in the world fighting terrorism. Now, I may have misunderstood you, but it seems to me that that is what you are saying.

And I'd still like to know what happened to that near hit. Maybe we need a new thread...

[Fox3snapshot]

B Sousa.....

Don't feel bad mate, if your team packed its gloves, bats and balls and left the diamond I am sure the teams left would still make a go of it with whatever resources they have left. You never know it may be all for the better!

Don't start on the French though, that would need a new thread and about 300GB of server space!

:ooh:

[B Sousa]

Fox3
Your starting to get mellow.....We need fighters......

[BEagle]

Surditas - if California is the 4th largest economy (fifth actually), how come it's virtually bankrupt? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3105425.stm

[MadsDad]

I suppose comparing the economies of California (big) and, say, Liechtenstein (not) could be a bit like comparing Marconi and our local chip van.

The bloke who runs our local chip van seems to know what he's doing.

Size isn't everything. Or so they tell me. ;)

[Surditas]

Beagle,

If I knew the answer to that I could be Governor of the Republic of California.


Actually, I probably couldn't as I am not a bodybuilder nor do I have perfect teeth.

[West Coast]

Well beagle, problems and all its only marginially smaller than the the UK when both economies are compared. California also has about 24 million fewer people adding to the economy. Time for you to come out of retirement as it seems you chaps are lazy.

[Mad_Mark]

But it does have the second biggest film (or Movie to you guys) industry in the world - I am sure that helps boost its economy just an incy wincy tad :ok: If all the 'rich and famous' moved out of there the economy of California might not be quite so much to write home about.

MadMark!!! :mad:

[West Coast]

And if perhaps the crown gave all of its riches back to the people it belongs to you might open the gap on California. Perhaps even move ahead of Germany.

[BEagle]

No - if people are going to start giving things back to their rightful owners, perhaps you colonists might think about returning large chunks of Spam-land to the Native Amuuuuuuuricans - or whatever your PC title for red indians is these days.....

And I'm sure Russia mght be interested in Alaska, Mexico in Texas, etc etc.

Take first the plank from.............?

[West Coast]

Beagle
You first, give Ireland back to the Irish and then we will talk.

[BEagle]

Not until we English get England back......

[West Coast]

I wonder if the Scotts would like a crack at it alone also minus interference from down south.

[ORAC]

It's a deal if the Scots and Welsh in the Cabinet go home.

Blair, Brown, McCartney, Darling, Reid, Hain, Murphy, Williams... and can I throw in Prescott who was born in Prestatyn. ;)

[BEagle]

Very much doubt if anyone could even lift Fatty Two Jags, let alone throw him anywhere......

[Pontious]

What was the thread topic about again?

West Coast

One word....YAWN!

:ok:

[we branch fantastic]

I think that it is fair to say that there would never be any near misses if the RN kept the Sea Harrier (SHAR for those in the know)

I find it hard to believe that everybody is having a go at the Americans but are missing the point that without organic aerial defence the fleet has left itself open to disturbingly keen ppruners to flog the same old dead horse, and repeat themselves for the umpteenth time.

The other day my milkman delivered two pints of semi-skimmed instead of the usual three. This would not have happened if the Sea harrier (SHAR) was to continue in service.

Of course, not only am I interested in the Sea Harrier (SHAR), but also I greatly value the inputs that Jackonicko
has to offer. I was extremely excited to hear of his extensive aeroplane checklist collection. I just thought that he was an overly keen wordsmith, but little did I know about his passionate and quite normal collection of all things aviationally dull.

Did I mention that i like the Sea Harrier (SHAR).

[Ignition Override]

Pontious. Ok, but did the US forces first secure the Oil Ministry for any certain reason? If that information is quite accurate and complete (not 'heavily filtered' by biased media), I'm just curious whether there was critical info there as to how the pipelines could be protected or operated. That petroleum might be, potentially, the main source of revenue for the long-suffering Iraqi people. But my info consists of a provincial newspaper (also sometimes the "NY Times"), NBC news and Pprune, thanks to all of y'all.

It is hard for me to believe that so many troops all went to the Iraqi Oil Ministry and were ordered to avoid hospitals and waterworks etc. In the movie "The Road Warrior", one of my favorites, this was the true focus for everyone (I really 'like' the blond warrior princess with the bow and arrow-maybe lust is more accurate...). The media seems to almost never mention the hundreds of Iraqi schools repaired/built by Allied forces, or is this stated anywhere very often?

It would be wonderful if all the troops were brought home, but what evidence is there that the country can operate itself? Billions (Milliards) of Euros might have to be spent first. Why would the imported and domestic terrorists allow a democratic govt to function in Iraq? No democracies have ever existed in that part of the world, outside of Israel. Maybe democracies are not welcome anywhere else?

:ouch:

[Surditas]

I don't see why the western governments won't admit that one of the reasons to invade Iraq was for oil. It's a vital strategic and economic asset. I see nothing at all wrong with ensuring its supply.

[rodan]

Surditas:

then you are one sick little puppy.

What if, for example, Russia decided that North Sea oil was a vital and strategic asset for them, and needed to invade us to ensure it's supply?

But noooooo, it's only ok when WE do it :rolleyes: