Airline pilot pay

[thinking pilot]

Who is happy to work for $1000 a week as an Airline pilot.

What is the minimum you expect once you get out of GA.

[Capt Fathom]

Jeez..they get that much! Where do I sign up?

[FO Cokebottle]

Are you paying tax on that????

[ITCZ]

Not me.

That doesn't pay for a modest mortgage on a modest 3 br house in a regional centre, a couple of average cars, and a young family that likes to eat something better than baked beans every night.

Problem is that a lot of pilots that would take that sort of money, do so when they still have stars in their eyes about flying jets.

Eventually you may realise that although it is a good job, its just another aeroplane, maybe a little more comfortable to go to work in than a C210, and that a room in a four-five star hotel is never as nice as your own lounge room, and that there are other interests that you want to explore now that you are not changing aircraft types every 12-18 months.

Then you see schoolteachers that have been in their profession for maybe 2 years that earn better than $1500 a week who are on strike because it is NOT ENOUGH FOR A PROFESSIONAL OCCUPATION!

Don't ask the wannabees how much airline pilots should be paid. You may as well ask a ten-year-old.

Ask the veterans, the guys who have tried to run their lives, guide their families and pay their bills from an interstate hotel room, the ones whose professional income is threatened by cancelled medicals when their doctor/lawyer/accountant/teacher equivalents can go to work and earn their professional salaries with heart conditions, overweight, adult-onset diabetes, loss of hearing, etc.

[Mr. Hat]

Never a truer word spoken ITCZ.

The question is where does it end?

[shaablamm]

From the wannabees perspective, from memory. Trying to pay bills, guide families and run there lives all from a 1-2 star hotel whilst on a charter to some god foresaken part of the earth aint to flash either. Paying those bills for a rented place that isn't much better than the hotel you're staying in and then returning home to find you only have $50 at most to go shopping with. Character building??? Yes, sometimes. Below the poverty line?? Absolutely. I remember being worse off than most people on the doll and I worked 5 times harder.

I know the question was referred to airline pay but I always have been bewilldered by the massive jump in conditions and pay from the G.A pilot to the Airline pilot. One day I would love to see the G.A pilot get what they deserve. I mean the fulltime guys/gals. RFDS, AIR AMBOS, FULL TIME INSTRUCTORS (dedicated to that career), BANKRUNNERS/ FREIGHTERS, CHARTER, SAR, AIRWORK OPS. The list is huge and the pay is pi..poor in comparison to the Airline salary. How could anybody take G.A seriously in Australia.

I think the conditions of the G.A pilot are a mock to the position and responsibilities involved. Pay bananas get monkeys.

I hope I haven't taken this post down the 'old road' again. Anyway, just out of interest thinking pilot, are you referring to any company/ position in particular that only pays $1,000/wk to be an airline pilot? Perhaps a G.A charter company that has endeavoured to break into the RPT sector?

[Dan Kelly]

perhaps the reason for the massive jump in conditions and pay from the G.A pilot to the Airline pilot. is that airline pilots, until recent years, have been more or less united and not prone to accept poor or reduced conditions just to do the job.

With the advent of NJS and Virgin and Impulse and market forces, that is changing.

I can only second ITCZs post above. In the end we will earn what the lowest person is prepared to accept. :{

[apache]

Dare you to ring RAY MARTIN or someone else at Channel 9!

[shaablamm]

That brings us straight back to Mr Hats reply. 'Where does it end?'

[Mr. Hat]

Hate to be pessimistic here guys but I think the reality is that award paying GA jobs will in the end pay more than an FO slot on a 737.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the big boys don't have an award rather they have to bargain for it (EBA).

At the last count the score was:

Share Holder +100k vs Pilot -100k (in only 2 years).

:( :{

I think when an FO slot pays 30k, perhaps in another 2 years, something might give.

[Sperm Bank]

I very much doubt whether an F/O will be getting 30k in 2 years.

[Mr. Hat]

Yeah i certainly hope not.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Having a mother and 3 sisters who are all school teachers, they don't make $800 a week let alone $1500 a week. Unless you are the principal of a big high school you don't ever get near that money. My sister has been a high school teacher for 14 years as a year level coordinator and shes on $52,000 a year. So before you guys cry poor for being on $1,000 dollars a week, consider that these people are moulding the countrys future, and in my opinion are grossly underpaid, along with nurses and police.

[Gnadenburg]

737 Stats

2-3 years ago F/O Ansett and QF- 100 to 130K

That was then, this is now:

VB-69K minus the cost of the endorsement.

Jetconnect/Freedom- further reductions.

Pacific Blue-around the 40K Australian minus endorsement.

2-3 years gentleman!!!!

Virgin Blue pilots have created a monster and getting a real GA feeling about the 737 in Oceana!

And guys, not a stepping stone to the big paying jobs overseas.

[shaablamm]

AirNoServices, I have to mention that the stated 1,000AUD/Wk would be the top bracket for the professional pilots in G.A.

Lets look at a figure of around the $300/wk. Would any teacher be getting less than that? I wouldn't think so.

As for them "shaping our counties future" I don't think they are doing a very good job at that either when you look at the way children are schooled these days. I was talking to a 13 yr old who goes to a good Sydney high school that didn't know what U.S.A stood for...... But he could tell me the aboriginal name for Ayers Rock. Great children we seem to be producing these days if that's the standard we shall put on to the world stage. Shaping our future :yuk:

[thinking pilot]

Mr Shaalbramm

The argument is not cogent, having meet one person who doesn't know the abbreviation of the USA is not an indicator of the overall standard of education.

It sounds like you may have a problem with teachers instead.

The initial question was based on the premise, would people be happy flying for an airline on $1000 dollars a week before tax.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

You guys are more out of touch with reality than I thought if you are targetting teachers as being overpaid. Go after us air traffic controllers if you like but teachers, nurses, police, firemen etc are all underpaid in my opinion.

I just want ITCZ to tell me which teacher he knows makes $1500 a week. Or does he consider the Vice Chancellor of Melbourne University to be a teacher????

You are worth what the market says you are worth. Thats the reality of economics. For a lot of years the market has said airline pilots are worth a lot. Lots of kids have gone out and paid to get there hours under their belt and in conjunction with world aviation collapse, there is a glut of pilots so airlines can pay less and they will, of course.

If there was a shortage of pilots worldwide then you could tell them to jam there offer and look elsewhere but the reality is you can't. Luckily theres a drastic shortage of controllers worldwide and its getting worse :E

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Ok first cab off the rank, PPRUNE Newbie, I have 30 posts less than youand have been a registered contributor since September 2001???

2nd, I work in the Middle East having worked for AirServices for 7 years. So when I joined there was no such thing as a training bond pal.

3rd I trained for 6 months as a teacher before the lure of better pay and better work conditions lured me to ATC.

4th- You were incorrect in your example where you said " in profession for maybe 2 years that earn better than $1,500 a week". You are still to provide evidence of this school teacher making 77,000 and having been teaching for 2 years????


Finally whether you like it or not the market does dictate what we are paid. I went to the middle east where the money is better than here because they have to lure people to go there. There is an oversupply of pilots right now so I say again airlines can offer rubbish money and they still get applicants. Simple really.

One other thing is Work conditions wise, I would prefer to sit in a cockpit in control than spend a day in front of 30 15 year olds who you are struggling to be in control of. Pilots with an airline get reimbursed with allowances for all those nights out of your lounge rooms so the quoted $1,000 a week is a bit decieving isn't it. Also I checked the wage scales in Victoria and a principal of a large city High school makes just above $80,000, and on average takes 15 yrs to reach this level.

By the way, you were having a crack at my comprehension skills, try getting the link to the wagenet website correct fool. Its gov.au not com.au As a final nail in the coffin of your argument I went to the Australian Bureau of Statistics Website and found the following interesting figures:

Over the 15 years to 2000, the average weekly ordinary time earnings of full-time adult non-managerial secondary teachers increased by 76% to $918, while for primary teachers earnings increased by 75% to $875 in 2000. In comparison, the average weekly ordinary time earnings of all full-time adult non-managerial Professionals increased by 86% in this period (to $954).

In the week prior to census night 2001, 35% of Australian teachers had worked between 40 and 49 hours, and 19% had worked more than 50 hours. Male teachers tended to work longer hours than female teachers, with 25% reporting that they worked 50 hours or more in the preceding week, compared with 17% of female teachers.

Now as I was saying, show me your teacher making $1,500 a week 2 years out of Uni, and by the way I'm not your kid, chum or mate.

[notanotherfivehourstogo]

Now all you guys are right in what you say but like always on this forum you all talk in circles! ANoSA fella, you are right but I think you are missing the point from ITCZ in that we are all Proffessionals what is wrong with being paid as one, just because we enjoy our jobs does that mean we should be paid S**t! I reakon teachers nurses and the like in Australia are discustingly underpaid as are GA pilots and the upper level of the Aviation food (pay) chain is is coming toward GA where as it should be the otherway around! As does ATC, engineers etc we all have a seriously big roll in keeping people alive in sometime very demanding situations, and I believe that comes at a cost, like it or not as the flying public . Australia is built on helping people but all we do in this industry is shaft each other, I dont get it! Now you two get off your high horses and debate sensibly instead of all the bullsh*t!

[ITCZ]

My dear A-No-sA,

You entered a forum where a pilot asked other pilots what their personal minimum was, pay wise.

You, (an ATCO) dragged the post off topic, by reacting to an incorrect assumption about my regard or lack thereof for the teaching profession.

You did not say "ITCZ, I reckon you need to look at your figures... " Nope. You yanked my chain.

So I gave yours a good yank back.

You missed my point. You were aggressive about it. You hijacked the thread. My reply obviously wound you up, which now pleases me.

You still think you have a point, and I think you don't. We will probably not agree, and as 5hours said, who else gives a rats? Clean up the board and pull the aggressive, off topic posts. Mine's gone to unclog the topic -- i can post it to you if you want it for posterity (does that mean that you can stick it up your ....?)

Now the thread asks: what other PILOTS think is the minimum acceptable for an airline job........?

[nzer]

Gnadenburg -The figures you quote just show that QF and AN pilots were overpaid - it's as simple as that.

[Sheep Guts]

Hey Thinking pilot,
I was on around 1000 aud/week during my short Airline Career as a Twotter Captain. or around 2000 usd a month. But that changed when the Aussie dollar climbed again. But now Im on more in a King Air. But it aint Airline, so one has to do everything. ahhhhh I miss the day of just signing the loadsheet mmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

Jets? what jets? anybody mention jets in here...?

But it all depends on where you are flying and how much your paid. Ive heard of Twotter Captains getting 8-10k usd/ month in Yemen tax free. Well thye can have that........Unless they rang me ofcourse :)

:ok:

But these jobs seem unatainable unless you have stacks of experience. Which I winder is how much?

I dunno Im getting sick of O/S ops how about you Air Services?

[Paul Alfred]

I am a teacher (8 years teaching) and $1500 a FORTNIGHT for a 2nd year teacher is more like it! ITCZ may have just got a little mixed up so lets be friends everyone and get back to the other part of the thred!!!

Cheers. PA:D

[nike]

The figures you quote just show that QF and AN pilots were overpaid - it's as simple as that.
Nzer - please explain.

How can someone be overpaid?

Compared to what? One could say that the other group was/is UNDERpaid.

I suppose someone could be considered overpaid if there was a mix up in the wages department- oh or if said person was in management.:p

Surely it is less subjective than you point out.

[Algerhorn Lacy]

Hey Sheep Guts,

Im the guy you called last weekend. Enjoy Mun!

I couldn't live on $1000 per week as a career salary, no way - unless maybe I planned to marry someone who was loaded.

The truth is that $1000 per week is a significantly less than a QF international Flightie brings home. I think 70K is a more realistic baseline for someone who loves his/her flying.

Algerhorn

[Sperm Bank]

Gnadenburg WRONG! Virgin Pilot's have not created a monster so please try and raise your standard mate. The company creates the standard and we either accept and fly, or reject and do something else. Blaming the pilots is farcical.

Nzer, the AN and QF pilot's were NEVER over paid. QF has been making plenty of money for a long time and AN were hopelessly mis-managed (it's as simple as that). Company mis-management has NOTHING to do with pilot's.

There are plenty of good airlines paying good money to tech crew and their balance sheets are just fine.

ALL teachers, cops and nurses deserve better pay. When resources start to run a bit tight, we may see some change of attitude by the various govt's.

Polling a piece of metal around the sky with 180 pax even on the easiest of days requires careful planning, judgement and common sense (to name a few attributes). How do you place a value on the responsibility of delivering pax safely to their destination? I don't know, but I do know it is worth considerably more than $1000 per week. The degradation of pay will ultimately see airline management pay the highest price for their miserly behaviour. Consumate professionals with many thousands of hours will leave the industry leaving behind a knowledge and skills vacuum. The same would apply to ATC and engineering.

The $ sign pushes us to perform to our highest standard and keep abreast of modernisation, change, new technology etc. Take away the $ and just watch the standard slip out the back door. Take away the incentive, take away the standard. The two are inextricably linked.

[duke of duchess]

I should have become a teacher!!!!

$1500 a fortnight, after only 2 years :( and here i have been flying for 7 years worked my way up through the ranks, spent 10's of thousands of dollars to get the qual's, which can all be lost if say a rock flicks up in my eye,

Not to mention that after 2 years i was still only earning say $1000 bucks a fortnight and flying planes through all sorts of weather, even having my alternate close on me on a couple of occasions leaving me in a slightly dangerouse predicament, no were to go and no fuel to go there anyway (got to love it when the met man doesnt forcast the weather properly)

why are other professions paid more than us, when they have a lower initial outlay, less risks in there day to day job, and a hell of a lot less responsability,

One thing about G.A pilots that every one forgets is they share the skys with the big boys, it is unlikley but if they stuff up they can still endanger 400pax, maybe not on there plane :)

The reason pilots are paid so little for there jobs, is because of companys like virgin, who come into the industry and undercut everyones ticket prices, to do this, they pay everyone in the company less and cut costs everywhere, but dont worry its not just in the airline industry bankrunners do that to some dodgy companys sell ICUS to subsidise there runs, and then when they need a new pilot the guy that has been paying $150 a day to fly is thrilled to be offered $100 a day to take command. and doesn't even realise that he has just stuffed the industry that little bit more.

The only way to combat this is to educate pilots not to fly for peanuts, never accept less than the award, EBA's are never going to be better for the pilot than the company or companys wouldn't impliment them.

For this reason, I WILL NOT work for Virgin or any other company like that, it is a stand i have taken to do my part, no one else need do the same, and yes i could be flying a 737 around but hey its a stand i think is required, if only more people would take this stand we would all get paid more.

I know what i am doing is fruitless because there are 100's of pilots out there that would (and have even tried to) stab me in the back to get my job, whilst undercutting my price and it is scum like this that ruin it for the rest, mostly guys/girls with no principles, so yep i am destine to never work for an airline in australia but hey principles are principles and i am not breaking mine.

I have never paid for an endorsment that my employer has needed me to have and never will ( signing a bond is fine as long as no money changes hands unless the bond is broken) and this is another pet hate. were bloody pilots, they need us, if they want us to have some qual specific to the company well hey thats for them to sort out.

If pilots just stood there ground a bit things would have to change.

well thats my rant finnished i hope there are some other pilots out there that refuse to work for the conditions that some operators are offering. My job is fine at the moment, award wage and i enjoy it so this is were i sit till i am able to land a job with a company willing to pay what pilots are worth.

oh yeah and there is no such thing as overpaid, if you are getting paid more than everyone else you will work harder than everyone else so you keep getting paid more, or just because you appreciate it.

So i guess Nzer will be flying a 737 around for $30k pa because its all automated now days, couldn't need any more money than a servo attendant, who may i say can earn $32k with no initial outlay, or real training. definatley something wrong with the payscale

Duke

[VB_Capt]

ICTZ, Yes as Mr Hat (Ithink) says, there is some truth in what you say, but a teacher earning 1500 a week after 2 years in the professson? I have a close relative a teacher and she is lucky to crack 35 after ten years in the business,
I asked her and she said the on ly teachers making that would be principals of BIG private schools. I posted elsewhere that a salariued GP gets 70 grand for a 50 hour week at a shopfront clinic. No shortage of takers there either, just too many GPs and not enough jobs.
Take a look at Torres posting elsewhere on pay and conditons. This is the age of enterprise bargaining, I don't like it, but that's what it is. Isn't that what we pilots wanted back in 89. Yep it is, and we got it. Not right then, but down the track everybody got it.
Now we're whining because Virgin came along and offered a pitiful salary. Any shortage of takers? No, and there won't be. Whose fault is it? Not the pilots who take the jobs, not the pilots who went back to work in 89. It'sa the labour market in 2003. Too many people for too few jobs. Torres talked of union strength and tight labour markets being hand in hand, and they are. When you have close to 10% unemployment, union membership is at an all time low and they can do nothing for you.
I said on another thread that employees only get what the boss can afford to give them. If he can't afford it then they won't get it. He'll try youon, say he can't and eventually you might have a win, but only if he wants you to. If the business can't afford it, then you don't get it.
Might be newsd you don't want to hear, but they're facts. Yes we're our own worst enemies, but so is every other person. They want to eat, and they take what's offered. If they don't, somebody else will. Sad but true. Unions can't help.
I don't have the answers.
The only employees who are safe are politicians who have the remuneration tribunal to look after them. They take the members out to lunch tell them how much the pollies need, and the tribunal finds a way to accom odate without having us feel too bad about it. And who cares if you do feel bad anyway.
As for the question, what is an airline pilot worth? Well we'd all like to think 10 grand a week, but ultimately it comes down to what is on offer and how many are prepared to accep t the offer.

[bahboy]

Vb capt,
If Mr.Branson could only afford to pay you 70% of your wage would you stay with VB?:confused:

[scrambler]

Interested to keep hearing about EBA's in this post
such as this one from duke of duchess

"The only way to combat this is to educate pilots not to fly for peanuts, never accept less than the award, EBA's are never going to be better for the pilot than the company or companys wouldn't impliment them. "

Please forgive my ignorance but my understanding was that an EBA (Enterprise Bargaining Agreement) is negotiated between Employees (I.E. Pilots) and Employers.

A bit of industrial relations knowledge would also inform us that it is above and beyond the award and cannot supply conditions below the award standard.

My experience with EBA's (Both inside and outside aviation) is that they supply a win for both parties.

As for the original question, what was it again? Would I be a school teacher for $1500 per week (no way), no before that, would I accept $1000 per week flying Airlines, Yes, if that was the Industry award wage, but who is offering that? $34K GA I consider myself Lucky! Why? rich in life but not so money (lets face it we all want more money). And I did leave $50K+ job to do what I love.