Brindabella Woes... [Archive]

meanestman

23rd Sep 2003, 19:07

long enough to know that to accept neglect in the order of this simple and elementary act demonstrates a worrying level mediocrity in all those here who say it was just bad luck.
If you feel that to forget to dangle ones dunlops is something that is inevitable, as claret and megle are, illustrates a disturbing lack of confidence, professionalism and pride in ones work.

What is it with these repulsive aero clubbish cliches like "those that have and those that will" All I can say is, if thats your attitude, I can only pray my family isnt sitting behind one of you on lethargy day and you forget to put fuel in the thing.

my comments do not relate to the specific event that occurred to Brindabella. Knowing the propensity of rumoured rot read here, this pilot may well have some mechanical problem , in which case his/her actions were no doubt exemplary :ok:

Capt Claret

24th Sep 2003, 13:37

Interesting opinions you have.

I've heard the clubbish cliché far more in the various airlines I've worked for over 10+ years, than in the whole 10 months I've ever been associated with an aero club!

What comes between neglect and a legit wheels up due mechanical probs?

To play the devil's advocate, the pilot may have had a faulty fuel supply causing the engine to fail due to fuel starvation just as s/he was about to select gear down. Given that much light aircraft training, when I flew them, expected the 'trainee' to cope with the fault and continue towards the runway, poor old bloggs has gone pitch up, power up, dead foot dead engine, trouble shot, changed tanks and restarted the engine, all whilst turning inbound on the NDB approach.

With the relief of starting the engine, bloggs has forgotten the undercarriage and in a somewhat excited state, overlooks PUFF checks on short final.

I agree with you in as much as had bloggs a history of forgetting the gear, or done it on purpose to see what would happen, then there's no excuse and no sympathy. However, there is room for a lot of grey in this incident, as posted on this thread.

Without knowing the circumstances of the actual incident, it seems very hasty to call for dismissal.

Wizofoz

24th Sep 2003, 15:37

meanest man,

Around 80% of aircraft accidents are caused by Human error. In the airline industry at least, there has been a concerted effort to identify and manage errors in order to promote saftey.

One vital part of this on going effort has been to recognise one simple truth:- PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES! They always have and they always will.

To simply fire someone for making a mistake, even a serious one, is both counter productive and inane. You are assuming that you are getting rid of a "Bad egg" and replaceing them with a good one. What you are in fact doing is getting rid of someone who is a human being, and replaceing tham with ANOTHER human being just as prone to error.

The idea is to 1) accept that errors occur and 2) minimise them by putting systems in place to minimise them.

So to this case. Did the company have written checklists and insist on their use? Did it have a rigid saftey culture and checking system? Why didn't the Gear Warning Horn sound? (When I flew Navahos, the company modified them so they didn't go off till just above idle, 'cause it scared the passengers. No doubt a wheels up would have scared them more!!).

The pilot is like the goal keeper. He is the last line in the chain of saftey. For one error on his part to lead to an accident means there has been a chain of ommisions before it got to him, and simply sacking him is a form of the company denying it's responsibility to create an over all saftey culture.

megle2

24th Sep 2003, 17:09

Mini mean man - You seem to confirm that you have not been around to long.

I'm sure the Chieftain driver didn't go out to do it on purpose. If he did lets hang him.

I saw a well respected chief pilot lock his keys in his car one morning, totally out of character but if happened.

As the others have said " there is a lot grey that can contribute to the outcome". Don't hang him. Learn from it.

Planned Root

24th Sep 2003, 17:22

Ermm.... what about the humble but important Check List?

Wizofoz

24th Sep 2003, 20:52

PR,

Like I'm saying, I've worked for operators who didn't provide one or insist on it's use. Surley if that had led to a wheels up, it would have been a systemic as much as an individual problem?

Jamair

24th Sep 2003, 22:03

I was with a friend of the driver in question who rang him when he heard of the incident, to see if he was OK. The drivers words "I cocked up" and forgot to put the gear down. Yes, he was sacked.

I would be unhappy if someone did that to my aeroplane, but I don't think I would automatically sack him - depending on the circumstances I might ask some pretty pointed questions and require some remediation; dismissal for human error is a bit stiff.

I haven't done it yet, and do not plan to. Everytime something like this happens, we should use it as an education process for ourselves, no? Who else (apart from me) has become super sensitive about the dangers of dark night approaches since the Mt Gambier CFIT? Live and learn - "You have to learn from others mistakes; you will never live long enough to make them all yourself".

Bula

25th Sep 2003, 07:54

All is not what it seems aswell. Word is that after the accident the pilot was asked by his CP what had happened to which he replied the gear collapsed on landing..

The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response. At that point he was given the sore nose.

YOU JUST CANT LIE ABOUT SOMETHING LIKE THAT.. especially not in a chieftain

bitter balance

25th Sep 2003, 08:08

Bula, that is complete horse****. The pilot in question has been refreshingly and completely honest about what happened. He is about as straight a shooter as I have ever met. I am yet to hear him make any excuses about the incident to anyone I know who has spoken to him.

There was no 'sore nose'. There was some aggressive activity on behalf of an individual. I think we can all understand the temptation to be aggressive if someone pranged our aircraft. However the fact that we don't get aggresive with someone who has just had an accident and who could be injured or at least in shock is what separates us from our four legged friends.

compressor stall

25th Sep 2003, 09:18

A lot of emotion occasional reason and, predictably, immarurity above.

To deny that it could and would ever happen to you is the most arrogant and foolhardy approach you as a pilot can make. "I will never make mistakes." :yuk:

Humans are human, and in the heat of the moment due to whatever reason, gear may get missed.

That is why there are checklists/mnemonics for downwind. And another one for 300 feetish.

Having said that, there may be circumstances where a fatigued or otherwise attention impaired pilot may inadvertantly omit to conduct the above checklists.

That is why they put in a gear warning horn! There would not be many pilots who have not have a gear warning horn go off at some stage. I will put up my hand a couple of renewals back, assy go-around from 500 feet gear and flap up, then decending to maintain a 300 foot circuit, assy, got the performance right got it around, lined up on final, happy going to make it, pull the power lever back, beep beep beep. :ugh: damn, gear down. It is not hard to get distracted.

Which brings me on to wizofoz who makes an excellent point regarding resetting gear horn activation. A piston engine aircraft I used to fly had the gear horn set at 13-14 inches MP. Now I don't know the way others fly, but I would always keep at least 15 inches until the flare (ops manual and C&T requirement). A gear warning horn is not going to do much good when you are in the flare... My request for the horn at 16 inches was listened to - for a while. Then things went back to the old way :mad: by which time I was moving on.

We are human, and it's important to recognise that and put in place procedures to prevent our mistakes having consequences. We learn from others mistakes, CFIT, Gear Ups, and try to learn from them to prevent our own. I know how vigilant I am on a black moonless night around a back o bourke strip. Because I have read so many reports of those who haven't been. :oh:

Which brings me back to bring back the crash comics mantra!

Or at least on the ATSB website list ALL incidents (like wheels up, mustering accidents etc) so we can see the pattern and frequency and LEARN. :ok:

Sheep Guts

25th Sep 2003, 10:28

Never say say never.

What comes around goes around.

Just when you thought you were in the clear it came around and bit you on the @#$%rse!

Its good to have productive conversation about and incident. But remmember to give respect to the Living or Non living Parties invovled.

Who ever was incontrol during this incident, it is easy to cry over spilt milk and criticize his ir her actions. But in the end you werent in the seat at the time, hence you dont have an idea.

Those who pugently refute human error as you do Meanestem, must be carefull and keep watching youre back. Because when the same happens to you, and by youre responses here, you may take it worse.

I hate accident/incident post analsyss

Johhny Utah

25th Sep 2003, 11:56

bulla - the pilot in question is pretty well regarded for being completely honest & straight to the point. It might not necessarily win him many brownie points at times, but at least those around him know that what he is speaking is his honest opinion.

I'd suggest that you go back & get your story straight & then re-post - or perhaps that isn't your intention. Interesting that you come out with such a controversial call for your first post, and were strangely enough only registered this month - which to me suggests that you might be very closely aligned with the operators involved. :eek:

If so, then perhaps your time would be better spent analysing some of the contributing factors to the accident. I'd imagine that the list (like any) has the potential to be quite lengthy - to suggest that the pilot should solely be held responsible & bare all of the blame is simply ludicrous.:*

I would also probably quieten down on broadcasting publicly that the pilot involved was physically assaulted by a member of staff (the CP according to your post). It doesn't matter what the situation was - physical assault is just that, and if I was involved I would be reporting the matter straight to the relevant authorities. I wonder how the safety & licensing authorities would view a member of staff physically assaulting an employee, in ANY situation - let alone immediately following an accident...?:confused: However, given that from all reports what you have posted above is not even close to the truth, you might want to (once again) check your facts before you go posting rubbish...:* I'd also suggest that the CP of Brindabella might take offence at you defaming his character - but why let the facts get in the way of a good story...?

shaablamm

25th Sep 2003, 13:10

I have to say something in regards to the 'CP assaulting the bloke' theory. This is entirely untrue. The CP WOULD NEVER DO THIS. Let alone abuse anyone for this sought of thing. Yes he may have an opinion but as far as CP'S go Brindabella has one of the better ones. I would think that the pilot even after the incident would still say the same.

Taking into consideration that this is a rumour mill, when something like this arises I would think that it would be a good idea to get ones facts straight. Just because you heard it from someone or even from one of the accused/ defendents does not mean that what you heard was entirley true. Remember that you are talking about peoples' livelihoods, careers and futures.

Try and stick with the facts. If you don't know them then ask questions but don't make sweeping statements about the matter.

beetlenut

25th Sep 2003, 17:54

So is this the same bloke that ran off the end of 30 during an aborted take off about a mth or so ago????

If so one would think the gear up was his second chance.

I sit to be corrected.

Planned Root

25th Sep 2003, 19:15

Wiz,

Sorry but I did not read your post in its entirety regarding the checklist issue before I commented.

An excellent contribution.

Johhny Utah

25th Sep 2003, 19:37

Beetlenut - given that you're obviously so well aware of all the facts involved in recent happenings in Canberra, perhaps you could do the following for us:
outline the event in question (facts only)
nominate all possible outcomes that were available to the pilot in the circumstances
nominate your choice of action & why

Then we'll all be able to sit around & snipe at you, much the same as were doing to the pilot in the question with your last post.

The floor's all yours...

If you were unwilling to do this, then you might want to rethink your last post. Perhaps the pilot chose not to continue with the take off for a very valid reason? Perhaps that reason might have had to do with flight controls (jammed/not responding/malfunctioning etc)? In that situation, I would suggest that running off the end of the strip would be a very minor event, as opposed to taking off with some sort of flight control malfunction, not being able to maintain a safe flightpath and consequently flying into one of the hills surrounding Canberra. Do you agree? :confused:

As far as I was aware, all involved thought that the actions of the pilot were satisfactory, and that this incident wasn't an issue.

All of which begs the question - why are you raising this incident here & now...?

23 Metros In a Row

25th Sep 2003, 22:01

It is clear that most are guessing, a few know the bare facts, and no one wants to clearly lay out the facts.

Fact: He forgot to put the gear down. Why after approx 1480 Chieftain landings, plus countless others in retractables, did he forget to put the gear down. The company, the industry, the community will never know.

Fact: His first reaction to the event was the safety of the passengers by following procedure. His attention to detail here (understandably) was fine.

Fact: His first telephone call was to the owner of the company. Not the chief pilot (as per SOP) not me, the owner. Again, understandable. It was during this phone call he was given the sack for ……… “knowing what he had done to this company”.. Huh

Fact: The second phone call was to me. Understandable

Fact: When the Chief Pilot was asked to be involved, he acted diligently and appropriately, followed procedure. Understandable.

Fact: When the owner and the PIC met for the first time after the phone call, the owner was not happy, and did not really act appropriately in front of the passengers or other attendees. Not understandable.

Fact: There has been no real investigation into failures of procedure, deficiencies within the systems, unfair dismissal (although the PIC has more respect than to stoop this low) just a “pack your bags your finished here”. Along with the PIC, the experience, knowledge and any attempt of a safety culture walked out the door. Un ba ludy leavable.

So how many have missed something in a check list, or been distracted, or been rescheduled for a flight at the last minute, been off sick for two week prior, or had a pilot in our midst make a mistake.

He that is without guilt cast the first stone.

Oh BTW, the owner is a top guy and runs a neat outfit, and clearly not a normal reaction of his either. More to do with a new machine turning up fifteen minutes prior that may have tempered his steel. Not the fist time one of his craft has been bent either. Remember Navajo Joe? Where for art thou now?

Jamair

26th Sep 2003, 07:02

Amen, 23 Metros .

Why did he forget? Be cause he's human, and therefore makes mistakes.

The premptory sacking of a pilot under these circumstances is not a good building block for an open, honest safety culture - if the replacement pilot thinks that a heavy landing, or a ground loop, or fried brakes might get him sacked is he going to be keen to report it? Or will he leave it in hope that someone else will be blamed when a drag link breaks in a few months time and the gear won't extend?

Stallie & Wiz excellent point re the gear horn - in my current ride the gear horn activates at below 12" MP - the POH recommends holding 12"MP through rounding out and into the flare......your reaction time would wanna be pretty good hey :uhoh:

bitter balance

26th Sep 2003, 08:50

23 Metros account stacks up with everything I've heard. The PIC has not made any attempt to cover up or muddy the waters about the incident. He is brutally honest with himself. He had some contributing factors in my opinion, but refuses to count them as excuses. As 23 Metros mentioned, the actions of an individual connected to the company were out of character and were very much unacceptable IMO.

Sheep Guts

26th Sep 2003, 08:57

BIK,

I like your post it has good pointers and options to Employment termination.
Watch though when using the word accountable. Its very sticky and can become legally binding. Why you ask? Take this scenario for example.

Hypothetically speaking, if were the Commmander of an Airliner and it spud into terrain CFIT, but you survived. The investigation calls it pilot Error. By holding you accountable, the Victims families have clear right to take you to the cleaners. ACCOUNTABLE is a dangerous word.

The thing is why it happened?And also it comes down to Smaller Companies being more responsible for their own Safety Auditing.
Relying on Big Brother CASA to do it all is Old way thinking. Internat accident and Incident Reporting and monitoring is a must.
And having Safety Officers who review all the similair accidents and similair Types. And a Libraray is created for all operational staff to peruse. Its safety awareness that needs to be installed and reducated in our minds. Stallies Crash Comic Mantra is where to start also is the NTSB websites and other world sites that have accident and incident reviews.

One thinks that even the Manufactorars could come in on this and supply Accidents and Incident info relevant to types.

meanestman

26th Sep 2003, 17:29

come on and listen to yourselves...the cliches are coming thick and fast now.

Megle seems possesed with matters of size, or is it a vein attempt at wit? Takes more to offend me than that, but try on imbacile.

Simple problem here, and no amount of pychosis or massaging of arguments abounding policy fault causing an accident is going to change the fact, that if you forget to put your wheels down before you land your plane, you are guilty of neglect. In any other industry you'd hang, why not this one?

Its easy for us armchair analysts to sit back and criticise the reaction of an owner/manager.But hey, not a major corporate entity here, just people trying to carve a living, RELYING on their pilots to remember the most elementary of airmanship basics.
When I was in GA, I would expect to have been reemed beyond human comprehension, had I have destroyed such a valuable an asset as an aircraft, not to mention harm to the business as a whole.

Can anyone here, offer up any excuse, other than neglect of duty for simply "forgetting" to put your wheels down. A scenario? anything? come on!

23 Metros In a Row

26th Sep 2003, 20:08

Can anyone here, offer up any excuse, other than neglect of duty for simply "forgetting" to put your wheels down. A scenario? anything? come on!

You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to understand that accidents are the result of compounded, concurrent and even disjointed circumstances that manifest themselves as one or more events, incidents or an accident.

Two examples of accidents, that resulted in serious damage (in addition to the one to which I previously referred) are:

1. A pilot of a well respected GA company, quite senior and very experienced managed to land an aircraft a long way down a rather foggy cross strip in country NSW. Misjudged ended up in a fence and wrapped the fuse and prop in no. 8 fencing wire. Why. Oh cause he mucked up?

No….. He was in the right seat ICUSing someone else. They were working for a well known freight forwarder who is notorious for exerting direct pressure on pilots for missing out, let alone what financial pressure they exert on the operator. It was foggy. He was scheduled late to the task (night before).

Sack him…. Well no. Better to find out what happened first rather than a kangaroo court of judge jury and executioner. Commandant.

2. A pilot flying a scheduled service in country NSW also manages to land sans wheels on a dark and gloomy night. Forgot, was distracted, bad airmanship?

Yes, Yes, Yes, - Icing conditions forecast. Gear not ice equipped. Night. Raining. Blowing. Multiple traffic. In and out of cloud. More traffic. Where’s the airport? Maynes will screw us if I don’t get in ..there it is…Oh checklist…..What you want me to relay your sarwatch call…..twit why didn’t he do that in the circuit as I did? Where’s the runway, puck its cold -1 must be ice, airspeed is a bit off….it is cold…there’s the runway…got it….floating floating floating………….floating………not floating………..sliding sliding sliding.

Sack him………Well no. better to find out what happened first and make a rational decision that some value can be driven from.

A key point to both cases is a rational decision. Rational, logical, calm and strategic.

In all three cases, the damage bill cost each company about $250,000 a time. Are you best to sweep it under the carpet and sack the bloke or get some value from the experience. Make the organisation a better place for it, make all the crew better pilots for it. The PIC is already a better pilot as a result of it, so should he be a better pilot for you or someone else.

Oh and as for “ I couldn’t live with myself if he was put back on line and made another mistake.” Spare me. Thought I was wrong once, but was mistaken.

Navajo Joe – Eastern (QFlink) DHC8 Captain – good on him
Fog man – Eastern (QFlink) DHC8 FO – onya Flo
Parkes the Chief without wheels – Virgin 737 FO – dumperthedunlopsnexttime
Captain, FO, SO of the “Whistler” in Bangkok – big investigation – on the job

Better not give them a job, as they have screwed up and could make another mistake, and won't I look silly then????? Spare me.

RootCheck

27th Sep 2003, 06:48

correction to the previous:
Navajo Joe is no longer employed as a captain with Q-link.
He now wishes to be addressed as "Boeing Joe"
some one is actually trusting him with a jet (haha)
He is a born again Virgin now.
The airline industry will never be the same again:D
Good on ya "Boeing Joe" :ok:

meanestman

27th Sep 2003, 08:41

23 metros.

None of the above scenarios are anything other than what you expect with the job as a professional aviator. The extra training, and licence as a result, allows you to now fly for reward other than just pleasure, and therefore, you can expect all of the scenarios mentioned above, on a daily basis sometimes.

I would suggest you are being paid for the bad days, not the good ones. The days where a combination of elements contribute to a hard days work. This is what separates you from being a private pilot (who has the luxury of staying in bed), and that of a pro who does it for his/her living.

You are also being paid for your ability to judge what is safe and manageable bearing in mind your own limitations.
Just as there are those who have succeeded in their careers since having misjudged their limitations (as youve illustrated above). There are those who have succeeded for having lost their job for merely "standing their ground"

But to the point, in GA, as we all should know, margins are tight. Companies do not have the luxury of large investigative safety sections, whose role it is to analyse discrepancy in company training and operational attitude. The onus IS on you as PIC to act professionally and manage both yourself and aeroplane. To get the job done under a variety of stresses, however, having the fortitude to understand this in NOT achieved at all costs.

Should the pilot go?
Could you afford that kind of future liability after such a cost to your bottom line and reputation?

BIK 11.6
As you could gather, I agree with your sentiments, particularly with regard that shocker "those that have...etc"

Pitch and Break

27th Sep 2003, 09:21

BIK 116.80

With you all the way.

23 Metro's...............
Interesting to note that ALL those drivers are now employed IN THE MULTI CREW ROLE....perhaps they couldn't cut the mustard in single pilot ops?

Bottom Line.....pilot admits he stuffed up and forgot the wheels. Cost his employer:
1 x aircraft downed unnecessarily
Lost income
Increased insurance costs
Reputation and status
MEGA BUCKS.

Recommended remedial action:

FIRED ON THE SPOT seems just about right in this case!:*

23 Metros In a Row

27th Sep 2003, 10:02

Why did he forget the wheels? Don't know, don't care. Could not be bother to find out.

Why then, my learnered friends is the company now seeking the services of a PA31 C&T captain. Does this action allude to something.

The company is not the first company to have a craft bent. Happens to them all. ALL.

Clearly the company is not "Airline material" and more relevantly GA - on the pages of this forum that are fitting- when it is not concerned over the significant negative safety culture that has been immediately put in place, and the lack of respect for organisational structure that has been shown by management.

Nothing further your Worship..........Now where is the Tylanol?

Johhny Utah

27th Sep 2003, 10:03

Pitch & Break - what a ridiculous statement re: multi crew ops. Are you suggesting that those of us who fly for major airlines are deficient in our abilities i.e unable to "...cut the mustard in single pilot ops...?"

That's a huge stretch by any means of the imagination...:confused: I'd imagine that most pilots would consider flying as a crew member in a multi crew, RPT operation to be a worthwhile goal in their aviation career.

bushy

27th Sep 2003, 11:36

Gear up landings are usually avoidable, and are likely when unusual events take place. They are usually caused by people. Like most other accidents. Qantas senior check captains, together with DCA examiners landed an HS 125 jet wheels up at Sydney, many years ago. No-one is immune. Checklists do not always work. A Psychologist from the Farnborough aircraft establishment once told us that of the wheels up landings he investigated, usually the crew had read the checklist, and recited "Gear down, three greens", and then landed without wheels. One captain commented "there's something wrong with the brakes".
Has anyone ever landed without reading the checklist?. I expect you will. What is needed is something that is totally separate from the checklists, and triggered by an unavoidable event.
Simple. When you see a runway in front of you, check wheels!
Make it a habbit. Habbits will still work on the day you are tired, stressed, and confused.. when you forget the important items on the checklist. A well dveeloped habbit will be an automatic double check.
And a pilot who has had a wheels up has had a valuable experience, and should be a better pilot afterwards.

Wizofoz

27th Sep 2003, 14:52

Recommended remedial action:

Pitch,

The whole point is that "Fired on the spot" IS NOT remedial action, it is revenge action. It does nothing to stop the situation happen again. While there are those who have landed gear up twice, most people don't care to repeat the experience! How then is relacing this pilot a "Remedial" action? Is the company now going to be able to use a crystal ball and tell that its replacement will NEVER make a mistake as serious as this? Oh, it sends the message "Stuff up here and you'll be shown the door", with the possible consequences discussed earlier. NOT a safety enhancing action.

Meanestman,

By saying a gross error is, by direct association, negligence, I assume you are saying "It will never happen to me" as I'm sure you don't consider yourself a negligent person.

On that basis sir, may I wish you a long, satisfying, error free career.

You'll be the only one...

RYAN TCAD

28th Sep 2003, 06:10

Great to see my post has generated some discussion.

23 Metros & Johnny Utah - do you fly for Brinda or what?

meanestman

28th Sep 2003, 09:59

Wizofoz,

Why is it that this forum is abound with the shallow thinker. Read into any argument as shallow as you have and allow your ego to be tampered with in such a way as youve demonstrated, and an inevitably stupid post follows.

At no time have I suggested I am not capable of error.
If I were negligent enough to forget to put my wheels down, I would expect a DCM.
Read BIK 116.0s view on the old "those that have and those that will" philosophy, I totally agree with it.

However, I do agree with the sentiment that a Gross Error of that kind in this industry is equivalent to negligence. I suspect a court of law would treat it as such as well. Its indicative of the kind of accountability that comes with role of PIC. Its not just fancy terminology, there is a degree of legal responsibility that comes with the role, surely you know that?

and dont patronise me with that "sir" cr@p, rise above mediocrity, try and be original

Wizofoz

28th Sep 2003, 12:51

"Sir",

23yrs in the industry, 14000hrs, 6000 command jet, working for my fourth jet airline (and NO I've never been fired!) with a background in training and CRM implementation.

OBVIOUSLY I have no background which would allow me to interpret your attitude as potentialy dangerous! I stand in awe of your obvious superiority and bow to your superior wisdom.

ONE DAY you may find yourself in a properly run airline and you will be introduced to the concepts necessary to run a decent saftey culture.

At that time I suggest you learn to listen, and not be abusive to people who are only trying to share a little of their experience with you.

fruitbatflyer

28th Sep 2003, 16:14

My, my...egos at play? Try 37 years employed, 22000 hours and yes, all the C&T, CRM etc etc boxes ticked time ten. Any airline I ever worked for would at least demote a captain to F/O for landing gear up, assuming no mechanical failure. Said culprit would do six to 12 months penance in the RHS and a full 'check-to-line' before regaining his command, with the C&T section looking very closely at performance under pressure second time around. The hapless F/O would also likely get a grilling and possibly even have his own command prospects put on hold for a while.
A small outfit with one or two single pilot aircraft could afford nothing as luxurious in retraining pilots as an airline could, so what to do? What happens to a ship's captain when he puts his ship on the rocks? A school bus driver who runs the red and rolls it? As someone said above, the commander sometimes has to wear the consequences of his actions, or lack thereof.
No, I have not yet landed gear up, though nearly ( carrying out an asymmetric exercise during a base check on someone and got distracted by ATC). Had I done so, of course I would have expected the sack, and rightly so.

Johhny Utah

28th Sep 2003, 20:51

RYAN TCAD - nope. Never flown for Brindabella, & provided the whole industry doesn't completely fall apart, hopefully never have to. :eek:

On second though, let me add - never will - following the actions of a very senior staff member immediately following the recent incident. :*

Wizofoz

28th Sep 2003, 21:55

Had I done so, of course I would have expected the sack, and rightly so.

Fruitbat,

Your experience is noted and respected. Why weren't you sacked for nearly landing gear up? Doesn't it show that you are someone capable of doing so and therefore, by your logic deserving of the door?

And if you had graunched and been sacked, who would it have benefitted? The company, by replacing you with a "better" pilot? You, by "Teaching you a leason" the actual gear up didn't?

Retribution adds nothing to air saftey.

Anyway, this is fast becoming a slanging match so this is my last comment.

Check greens everyone!

meanestman

29th Sep 2003, 08:39

Wizofoz

Thanks for the resume
You are obviously an aviation legend.
I would retort with a run down of my employment history, but Im just not that atypical kind of pilot.

Wizoz, your type is so predictable. As soon as the argument becomes seemingly unwinnable, out comes the resume for an appendage size comparison. Im not in awe, just in stitches.

This is the real world, not some fairytale where a Chieftain operator can afford the large corporate luxury of safety departments and disciplinary protocol. Half their assets have just been destroyed!

Wizofoz

29th Sep 2003, 14:51

Sorry, THIS is the last comment!

Meanest, my experience or otherwise is indeed irrelevant if my argument lacks logic. Explain to me how sacking someone for making a mistake adds to air saftey and I'll dip-me-lid to you.

As to typical types, someone who turns to personal abuse and belittlement because someone else dissagrees with them is ALL to typical on forums like this.

megle2

29th Sep 2003, 17:26

Yep this discussion is going nowhere.

Maybe this whole incident will be a blessing in disguise.

B'bella get a chance to get out of a old Chieftain and utilise the Metro, a safer machine all round. Business builds up and he gets rid of the other Chieftain.

The driver moves on to better things.

The travelling public travel in increased safety albeit with ear plugs.

Northern Chique

29th Sep 2003, 17:27

From my rather less than experienced seat, but one that has been involoved in some good, solid safety cultures and one less than sufferable company whose safety culture was less than standard (and convicted for it), I see some very experienced hands offering sound advice.

I seem to remember some time ago there was a little rule of thumb doing the traps. "A person could make it into QF by one of two routes, firstly be related to someone in there already, or have pranged an airframe 'cause sure as eggs you wont do it again!"

Sure, some companies will offer some great reconcillitary action post incident / accident. Others just sack the pilot. Ive seen pilots sacked on the very hint of suspicion. Very few pilots have the guts to stand up and say "well I did stuff up, Im sorry". Good investigation of the incident / accident and reassessment of skills should be encouraged and most often works when put into place. The rewards for the company being, a loyal pilot, one with a new reinforced safety mentality, and no requirement to start from scratch a completely unknown new pilot.

GA unfortunately has a reputation for being a really scarey proposition. Any little thing might just get you sacked. It shouldnt be this way. GA is already the hardest flying anyone has to do in their career. I have been there, and Ive been at the recieving end of some really unfair reprisals after an event where I wasnt even the one flying. I copped heaps both here and face to face.

On another note, now tell me if I am incorrect in saying most ethical operators have hull insurance. Even if the excess is $10k or slightly more, very few operators have to fork out for a new / repaired hull.

I feel for the chap who knew he balls it up. I could just about lay bets he would never do it again.

NC

Johhny Utah

30th Sep 2003, 15:47

BIK

Thanks tips! :rolleyes:

Col. Walter E. Kurtz

30th Sep 2003, 16:02

I think people are mistaking Wizofoz as 'defending' the (alleged) negligence of the pilot in landing gear up.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the vibe i get is that he is coming from the angle of punishing pilots for 'errors' only forces the 'true causes' to be buried, for fear of retribution. Am I wrong inthis assumption Wiz?

If a pilot is going to be axxed for telling the 'truth' about an allegedly negligent occurrence, then there is no 'incentive' for the truth to be known - hence safety in general is diminished by the loss of another opportunity to uncover a latent factor involved in leading to this type of accident, yeah?

In my past, under the high pressure of a SPIFR workload coming out of the bottom of a cloud on a couple of particularly nasty night IAP's and finally getting visual and manoevring to land I only caught the gear still up on the finals check - a check that i conducted, and continue to conduct with religious fervour. Saved me a couple of times. OK, threetimes.

So, you can forget the gear, but not the gear AND the finals check!

Given the right (wrong) set of circumstances, ANYONE can forget the gear, or any one of the multitude of other items that we as pilots carry out - it's just that quite a few of them don't end up an accident, and that saves alot of pilots.

Personally, i would expect the DCM, and would probably deserve it, but would be thankful for getting a 'second chance' considering my good operating record and not get fired. But if i did get fired, ce la vie.

What about if a pilot had a history of this type of event? Or other occurrences?

This is not meant to be directed at what actually happened (as I don't have any of the true story) but, there are 3 sides to every story, and if someone wrecks your plane, well it's your perogative to not want them to fly them anymore after the facts are presented and negligence is 'proven'.

Wizofoz

30th Sep 2003, 16:15

Bik,

As you've put up a reasoned, sensible post, I will reply.

All points noted and respected, but I will make a couple of points:-

Companies that operate single-pilot aircraft place an enormous amount of faith in their pilots – they rely implicitly on their pilots to get it right every time.

If that's the case, they've got real problems. I get the idea you spend some time with a white rat on your tail (correctme if that's wrong) and even they (and I!!) stuff up, be it with one, two or four pilots up front. If a companies MO assumes that it can rely on ANYONE not to make errors, they will not be in business long. Until we are replaced by robots, error is part of the price of doing business.

There but for the grace of god go I – but I’d still expect to get sacked all the same

OK, so Brindabella sack their gear up pilot and hire you. Problem solved? As you've said, it could happen to you. They haven't got a pilot they can rely on to "get it right every time." They've got you, or me, or any other human being, still just as capable of making a balls up in the right (wrong?) circumstances. And lets say you DO gear up (or any other equally serious mistake), will you take up accountancy? Is it the end of your carreer? Or will you continue and try and find employment else where? (As has been stated, half the senior guys in QF wouldn't be there if that was the case!). So if you're going to continue flying, why shouldn't your current employer have the benifit of your (now expanded!) experience?

it sends the message “Stuff up here and you'll be shown the door”

Negative motivation is rarely productive, look how ineffective it is at preventing crime! You're assuming people will be more vigilant if they think their job is on the line. Neither theory nor experience bears this out, and as such "no blame" cultures are being recognised as the best way to minimise error.

As to my Resume, I regret that post, but it was in response to this:-

"Wizofoz,

Why is it that this forum is abound with the shallow thinker. Read into any argument as shallow as you have and allow your ego to be tampered with in such a way as youve demonstrated, and an inevitably stupid post follows."

I felt a TAD insulting and over the top? My suggestion was that if meanest was so scathing of error, he must feel he couldn't have been capable of it.

BIK, this will always be contentious, and I respect your opinion, but politley continue to dis-agree with it.

Edited because Walter was writting at the same time as me! Walter, what you've described is the very essence of a no blame saftey culture as I now work under and as is being promoted as the way forward for air saftey. Encourage the reporting and analysis of error, don't pretend it won't happen and have people covering up for fear of retribution!

megle2

30th Sep 2003, 17:05

BIK Your post mentions pilots being well paid.

Do you consider the Chieftain pilot was well paid or for that matter any SPIFR GA pilot is well paid?

Northern Chique

30th Sep 2003, 17:22

BIK - oh gawd not THAT chieftain.... was a nice plane! They never quite fly the same again after a prang...

Megles - how soon they forget the trauma of a GA pilots pay.... and BIK you had the limo compared to the XF!

I sure as hell wont! :ok:

olderbutyzer

30th Sep 2003, 19:49

BIK - oh gawd not THAT chieftain.... was a nice plane!

VH-TAS. Yes, it was a nice plane when I last saw it a few years ago.

Bula

30th Sep 2003, 20:05

G'day all,

been a while since I've been on so time to defend my comments.

Form my previous post about a "cover up" if you guys could read between the lines I was not finger pointing and as for the physical assualt... common guys been sensible... How many CP would deck one of their Pilots????? But wouldn't after being fired for a really easy but costly and possibly dangerous accident feel like a "punch in the nose" from the CP.. especially after you bash youself up for doing it in the first place.

So Johnny Utah things are not always as they seem.. dont take it personally.

Now thats out of the way arn't pilots meant to be gentlmen guys?

Its funny that you say a Multi-crew pilot from an airliner would be as efficient in Single Pilot IFR ops then a person who regurarly practices Single Pilot IFR ops. I know many an airline captain who would not poke a stick at Single pilot IFR ops until they have practice at it or even want to go back. Think about how you would feel being thrown inside a C421 in bad waether Single Pilot IFR ops without the guy next to you briefing with you on the appraoch and helping the set the damn thing up with you....... monitoring the appraoch with you, making sure evrything in properly set up.

remember you will never have time to make all the mistake in Aviation.. so you must learn off others. Single pilot IFR is dangerous..... especially if you dont do it regularly.

bitter balance

30th Sep 2003, 22:36

Bula, in your original post on this topic you said;

"after the accident the pilot was asked by his CP what had happened to which he replied the gear collapsed on landing. The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response."

This is total bull**** in every respect. You owe the PIC an apology. This bears no resemblance to what happened. You ask "arn't (sic) pilots meant to be gentlmen (sic) guys?". If you are you'll have no problem apologising.

Although a diversion - the aggressive behaviour that Johnny Utah refers to did occur, didn't involve a sore nose and didn't involve the CP.

Johhny Utah

1st Oct 2003, 10:59

bula - here is your original post, word for word:

The CP left the room the give the pilot time to think, came back in and answered to which the pilot replied the same response. At that point he was given the sore nose.

I was well aware of the fact that the CP did not assault the pilot. However, you were either straight out lying, or had your facts terribly confused (i.e were making it up) when you made your post alleging that the CP had in fact assaulted the pilot.

I suggest that you make a public retraction here on PPrune of your earlier post, and apologise to both the Pilot involved & the Chief Pilot of Brindabella Airlines for slandering their character. Your previous snivelling effort at claiming your earlier comments were misinterpreted was disgraceful. Nothing less than a full retraction will make amends for your previous efforts.

In response to your other claim - I didn't make any claims about any sort of crew being more or less efficient in flying Single pilot Ops. I was responding to Pitch & Break, who stated that:
Interesting to note that ALL those drivers are now employed IN THE MULTI CREW ROLE....perhaps they couldn't cut the mustard in single pilot ops?

Take it as you will, but I read that to infer that those of us who fly in a multi crew environment are somehow deficient as opposed to those who are flying in a single pilot environment. Having flown single pilot IFR in a C402 in PNG, I am more than aware of the differences involved (hence my response to BIK). However, I don't think that it necessarily makes one group of pilot more/less skilled than the other. My original reply used the word 'deficient' - you might want to check out the difference...:rolleyes:

The ball is back in your court now - I'll be waiting out for your apology...

RYAN TCAD

1st Oct 2003, 19:36

Hey BIK 116.80 - you sure that the pilot was paid that well? I don't think they're paid as well as they should be - given their responsibility and workload compared to pilots further up the chain. - What do you think?

Bo!

Bula

2nd Oct 2003, 08:09

Admittidly the facts I received from down there were totally wrong by the looks of it. It was only what I had heard on "the grape vine" that is GA. Apologies to the people down there, I know some of them and they are all good guys though the wording or "a sore nose" was not meant literally though other posts said it may have been.

I think I'll give my contact a call and give him a piece aswell. There was no intent to slander or misconstru information. It was only what I was informed about.

Icarus2001

14th Oct 2003, 00:15

So if the wheels up pilot was dismissed and they are now looking for a C & T pilot, can we conclude that the wheels up pilot was the previous C & T pilot?

Johhny Utah

14th Oct 2003, 07:59

Icarus- no, that's not the case at all.

To end this on a positive note, the pilot involved has now found work elsewhere. All the best to him, and let's hope that this incident doesnt continue to adversely affect either he or Brindabella.

All's well that ends well - I guess...

Willie Nelson

17th Oct 2003, 10:43

From an engineering point of view (I am not an engineer) something that always perplexes me with G/A aircraft....

Why is it that there is a perfectly good means of avoiding a wheels up fitted to every R/U aircraft (that I am aware of) that is never correctly set. In all of the R/U aircraft that I fly/ have flown, the throttle has had a microswitch installed set to a throttle position that is (supposed to be) set to a corresponding MAP setting that would indicate an imminent landing (i.e: power setting too low for sustained flight under normal circumstances, perhaps with the exception of holding)

This microswitch is never set to the said throttle position, and as a result is as useful as a flyscreen door on a submarine.

I do not know the complexities of the adjustment, however I am under the impression that such an adjustment is not beyond the scope of the imagination for your typical engineering outfit.

It is not my point whether or not a pilot is distracted, negligent, culpable or just plain dumb. People are people and as such will make mistakes. Arguably, ONE of the significant factors that contribute to the undercarriage being selected down an equal amount of times to it being selected up would be GPWS. However this system is as we know, not generally fitted to your standard PA-31.

All Boeing pilots are well briefed on the meaning of the aural warning "TOO LOW, GEAR!"

If this microswitch were to be appropriately fitted and adjusted in these aircraft (system can be checked every time aircraft is jacked) I think we would all but see the end of these accidents.

If 99.9% of accidents (generally speaking) are a combination of system failures, why does it seem to go unnoticed that this particular system is never working.

It should be said that it doesn't work on the aircraft that I am flying either despite discussions that I have had with engineering.

Willie

Travelling Toolbox

17th Oct 2003, 13:21

Willie Nelson

These adjustments are not hard to do – you just need a baseline reference to work with. Many moons ago, I use to place a piece of masking tape on the throttle quadrant a few flights prior to the 100hrly, so that the pilot(s) could mark on it EXACTLY where the gear horn was/should be going off in relation to the throttle positions. Simple and effective means of verifying the system as rigged or requiring adjustment – and you already had the mark to move the rigging to kindly provided by one of your flying team.

On another note, I knew of a few good pilots who were caught out in PNG flying Barons around the hills. The practice by some was to pop the gear horn CB to get rid of that annoying sound while stooging around the hills at low speed and flap out. You see, “in rig” gear warning was too high a setting for the type of ops we were flying. Unfortunately, this resulted in more than one embarrassing moment with a Baron sitting on the strip and the wheels tucked nicely way in the wells.

Can't comment on Brindy's rigging, but I am sure there engineering guys would have it rigged as near as spot on as you could get.