Trial lesson as Raffle Prize?

[Whirlybird]

As a CPL(H) and FI(R), is it legal for me to offer a helicopter trial lesson as a raffle prize? I can't think of any reason why it shouldn't be, but I know there are some special rules for charity stuff, and I don't want to break any of them!!!

[RodgerF]

Whirlybird,

This is the AIC which might be your best starting point

http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4W088.PDF

[Say again s l o w l y]

Shouldn't be any issues Whirly, it's something we do regularily for local schools etc. Never had any problems.

[DFC]

Provided that the trial lesson is provided by an RTF or FTO and the aircraft has a Public Transport C of A then there is nothing different from any other trial lesson for which the student may pay or may have their parents pay.

However, if you are an instructor who happens to hire a heli from a local operator for general flying then you can not start doing trial lessons until you have set up an RTF or FTO

Regards,

DFC

[Whirlybird]

Thanks everyone. That seems to be OK then. :ok:

[StrateandLevel]

"However, if you are an instructor who happens to hire a heli from a local operator for general flying then you can not start doing trial lessons until you have set up an RTF or FTO"


Actually it is perfectly legal to do so. The hours may not be countable towards a JAA licence, but Registration is a JAA requirement not a UK legal requirement.

[DFC]

A "Trial Lesson" is exercise 3 of the PPL Sylabus (otherwise known as the Air Experience Flight).

If the student is not folowing a course of instruction then they are not a student at all.

If they are not a student then IMHO we depart down the murky avenue of Public Transport.

Perhaps I'll start up regular flights from Bristol to Birmingham and get the people who pay to say they were on a "trial lesson".....that'll remove the need for an expensive AOC. They can even steer the wheel while I eat my sambos since I won't need to spend any money on autopilot repairs :D :D

I am not aware of any situation where an unqualified person can receive instruction outside of the RTF/FTO/BMAA/BGA system.

RTF registration is free.

Regards,

DFC

[StrateandLevel]

So long as the student is receiving instruction from a qualified FI then they are legally a student, and the FI is exercising the privileges of his licence and rating. If remunerated, it is Aerial Work not public transport. There is no legal requirement to be assigned to any particular body or organisation to do this other than a "flying club" which could be just two people, the FI and the student.


"Registration" is a JAA requirement which has no legal standing in the UK. It may affect the students ability to be issued with a licence, but it does not undermine the privileges of the instructors rating.

The original question related to the legality of the trial lesson, not how to go about training the student for a licence or rating.


There are a good many trial lessons to Le Touquet for lunch whilst the FI does exactly that! It may be more attractive than Birmingham or Bristol.

[Whirlybird]

From my point of view it's all probably irrelevant now. To give you the full story, I've signed up for a 5-day camel trek across the Gobi Desert, and need to raise £2,500 for charity in order to go. Offering a trial lesson as a raffle prize seemed like a good idea, if I could do it legally. It seems I can, as far as aviation is concerned. But not as far as lottery law (which includes raffles) is concerned!!!! This - believe it or not - is a worse minefield than the CAA, and involves far too many hoops to jump through to make it worthwhile :{ :{ :{

Ah well, back to the drawing board. I guess I'll do car boot sales and stuff like normal people. Er...anyone wanna contribute?

[wher2guv]

[DFC]

Straight and level,

The JAR-FCL requirements have full legal standing in the UK since the date some years back when the CAA required all training to be completed in accordance with JAA requirements.

Yes, there has been the NPPL which has changed things slightly - but not for helicopters. JAR_FCL 2 is the law.

Microlights and gliders etc are outside the JAR requirements (according to the JARs) :)

If in advance, a person pays for a flight, which is known in advance not to qualify towards the issue of any licence or rating, then one can not claim to be completing an instructional flight.....it must be something else.

IMHO, to qualify as a legal "Trial Lesson", the flight time must be capable of being counted in full towards the issue of a PPL. Unless there is an RTF then the time won't count.

Would love to find out what the insurance company would think of a claim from the estate of a deceased who expired in the channel following an engine failure in a single enroute to Le Touquet on a "Trial Lesson".

Very few people these days that complete a trail lesson ever complete any further training - Christmas presents, Birthday presents etc and I agree with anyone that says the rules are bent slightly. However, the flights are legal by virtue of the fact that the organisation is a bonifide CAA/BMAA/BGA or whatever training organisation and the flight time counts towards the training requirement of the PPL or whatever.

As I said earlier, simply registering as an RTF costs nothing and solves most of the problem.

Finally, almost missed it but......there is also the requirement for this FI(R) to be supervised and the details of the supervision must be included on the RTF form.

Regards,

DFC

[Airbedane]

Whirlybird,

Rather than a trial lesson as a prize, why not try a passenger flight. They do it at Old Waden. I believe all they need is a CAA exemption. I've sent you a privae message that might help.

A

[Whirlybird]

As far as the CAA is concerned, I can do the trial lesson, as the school I work for is happy about it and is an RTF etc. I think a passenger flight would require an AOC etc. But as I've said, it's all irrelevant as getting licensed to comply with lottery law is too complicated. :{

[DFC]

Whirlybird,

Not sure but perhaps you have two options with regard to the prize draw;

1. Find out if the charity involved would help you run the draw - they run the draw etc and all monies go straight to them. The resultant profit from the draw would count towards your minimum required.

2. The other I believe is to stop trying to run a draw and (like many magazines etc do) run a test of skill/knowledge whereby you accept a donation with each entry

e.g. "Guess how many hours this aircraft has been in the air for this year" Best guess wins a free trial lesson. Please make a £1 donation to XYZ charity with your entry".......small writing which details exact details of flight (weather limited etc) also includes information that a donation is not required to enter.

Something like that should get you arround the lottery rules and generate some money.

Regards,

DFC

[Whirlybird]

DFC,

You're right - a competition of some sort should be OK. Thank you. :ok:

I gather I've confused at least one person with the lottery law can of worms. It's legal to have a lottery at an event such as an airshow or village fete or whatever. It's not legal to do it over a period of time, selling tickets to the general public, unless you're licensed and print tickets and have accounts and so on.

[Duncan152]

The latest GASIL refers to an updated AIC for charity flights - AIC 76/2003 White 88.