Commands Direct Entry

[saly]

Is that true EMIRATES looking for A340 dirct captines

[320till 15nm]

"and then you woke up and had your cornflakes"

[milaaka]

hey speedy,be nice or go back to your moon

[320till 15nm]

"milaaka" no need to through the toys out of the cot

[Jim Morehead]

My only question about Emirates or anybody is whether you have to be able to spell CAPTAIN to be one. <bfg>....

And specifically on Emirates,why WOULDN'T they hire hire direct entry Captains on 777s or any airplane IF they needed them? If you need pilots, why not hire them? Just to make someone sit in the right seat for XXX hours or XXX years seems foolish. I am sure those in the right seat want to upgrade when they can,but any company's management makes that decision.

[CaptSnails]

Have to agree with Speedbrake, I think EK should honour it's seniority lists. Too many guys have made huge sacrifices to join EK as F/O's when they were skippers for years with other airlines.
Get your planning right guys and honour your own pilots who have built your airline.

Snails

[Bagshaw Crusher]

Gulf Air will be in trouble if EK takes up all the spare A340 drivers from the market. I understand they will be taking Direct Entry Commands onto the 340 aswell as F/Os.

[Bokomoko]

Keep your pilots happy and reduce the number of high drag appraoches from 25nm!

Hey speed, are Emirates captains unhappy as well and therefore they'll permit such approaches supporting co-pilots complaints?
:hmm:

[typhoonpilot]

Jim said:

And specifically on Emirates,why WOULDN'T they hire hire direct entry Captains on 777s or any airplane IF they needed them? If you need pilots, why not hire them? Just to make someone sit in the right seat for XXX hours or XXX years seems foolish. I am sure those in the right seat want to upgrade when they can,but any company's management makes that decision.

Jim, I'm guessing you were with United or some other U.S. major. In any event a company with a relatively stable seniority system. How would you feel if your previous airline decided to hire direct entry 747 captains ? That wouldn't go over real well would it ?

A better example would be jetBlue, an airline that is expanding rapidly and has hired many low time - just out of the military - guys with no airline experience yet still upgraded them in just over a year with no known problems. Emirates has been hiring very experienced airline pilots with well over 5000 hours in most cases yet they aren't willing to give them a chance to upgrade before bringing in direct entry captains. Maybe that is what you meant by that middle sentence, it is foolish to make guys sit in the right seat for xxx hours or xxx years prior to an upgrade. A good training department would easily be able to take Emirates current F.O.s and turn them into good captains, even the ones who have only been at Emirates for a year or two.

Typhoonpilot

[330 Man]

I have to agree with TYPHOONPILOT on this one. If you were qualified to be hired as a First Officer with 5000 hours, then you are, after a year, qualified for command. No airline hires First Officers intending them to be First Officers forever. A good Recruitment staff knows if you will not be fit for command, and you will never be hired in the first place.

A good training department can take a First Officer with one year and qualify them for command so long a reqruitment is hiring qualified applicants. I can tell you that the people I know who have been hired by EK in the last year, would all make great Captains. They should be given the opportunity before any DEC is hired. I have always read on this forum that EK takes care of it's people and now is not the time change that policy!

[Jim Morehead]

To the previous postings.....

I am NOT in disagreement with your postings at All! I would not like to be on a seniority list and do my job, play the game and get passed over. And I think people with qualifications and hours can do just fine. But promotion without a strict seniority list is in the eyes of the beholder.

My only observation and comment is why ANY carrier would say"to be considered for promotion (or command) one must have XXX years or XXX hours". That seems foolish.

The truth is many people and PPRUNE readers have NO idea who is going to this carrier or that carrier or what their qualifications are.

So when ANY carrier can't get (whether imagined or not) people to upgraded, they go to the outside. In the case of Emirates, their web site clearly says that you will be a F/O as an initial hire. No problem with that at all if that is the stated policy. In fact, I don't even think their application would allow one to say,"I wanna be a Captain"!

It's just hard to hit the middle of the runway from the right seat when you have been flying from the left <bfg>!

BTW, it sounds like Dubai is like Taipei without the humidity!!!! Abu Dahbi was not exactly like a charming resort in August when I was there. There are better months there, aren't there???

[mini cooper]

This is how it is, Direct Entry - possible certainty!! EK say you need 10,000hrs,3000hrs wide-body command directly preceeding joining EK plus a few other things. Now for accelerated command you have to have over 8000hrs ,2000hrs command on a/c over 55t directly before. This just changed over night with no consultation so lots of guys here who had previous commands on 757/767/A320 plus bigger a/c who thought they were on accelerated are now not!!
It seems that Emirates would rather take pilots from outside the company of whom it has little or no previous knowledge of, they have no proven simulator/training reports on, people they don't know and who also don't know any of the company rules and regs rather than upgrading current on type first officers who have decided to come out to the desert , who have proven track records with EK , who have had previous commands and have lots of genuine experience and who know the company rules and regs ( and believe me there are lots)
..................does it make sense??????:*

[Dr Know]

Speed

Keep your pilots happy and reduce the number of high drag appraoches from 25nm!

If only that was the problem! It seems to be just the opposite.
What I have been told, they can't slow down!

[mini cooper]

I wait with eager anticipation for the reaction of the Ek pilots at their meeting on 29/9 - please update us as to what the EK management have to say, hopefully all those guys who are thinking about DECs and going to Dubai will think twice!!!!
:ok:

[millerscourt]

mini cooper Don't be naive. Any Captain applying to EK who thinks this is the job for him is not going to put off by knowing that there are some disgruntled F/O's about. Any of these who bring their problems into the Flightdeck will face a career going nowhere.

Aviation is all about being in the right place at the right time or vice versa and it has always been thus.

[Backwater]

There are some very powerful assessment tools available to EK in order to choose F/Os suitable for upgrade. Instead they fall back on arbitrary hours requirements. Not very scientific, not very effective, and detrimental to the overall aim.

[Jim Morehead]

The last few postings have been right. I am not sure that you are in nor should be in an argument with each other. Upgrading or not upgrading people is all subjective and difficult at best.

Most professional pilots can succeed anywhere they go.

[Wet Power]

Totally agree Jim.

I have worked for two companies in 15 years and both my interviews were by Chief Pilots/Fleet Managers.

The assessment as to my suitability (and many other pilots suitability) was achieved with a 40 minute interview and nothing else. I could tell by looking around me (and subsequently as a Training Captain) that those senior managers chose well with very few mistakes.

Life is strange. A couple of unsuccessful applications I have made to other airlines in that time (involving lots of assessment stages) has included being interviewed by ex cabin crew and fairly junior first officers.

I wonder who got it right.

[Scrod]

All very interesting :hmm:

What folk have to know is that there are a good number of F/Os in Emirates that have a huge wealth of experience prior to joining. They have had previous command time on relevant types and others have thousands of hours on Emirates specific types and are familiar with Emirate's present and future route structure.

It is a sad reflection on Emirates "highly acclaimed" training system that it cannot upgrade these guys in preference to some total outsiders who have no knowledge of Emirates SOPs and structure. After all if you can't turn command-potential F/Os in 1 1/2 - 3 years into suitable Captains then what chance do you have with totally unknown pilots in a couple of months.

I have been in the industry long enough to know that there is precious little difference experience wise between a 6000 hr and 10000 hr pilot after all.

Worth a thought eh? :sad:

[411A]

Scrod,

You can tell us all about it when you have the relevant experience...10 to 15,000 hours, for example.

Us 20,000+ hour guys know all too well that 6,000 ain't much, especially for training Captains, as EK has opted for, as a prefered Commander applicant.

Nice try though....:E

[mini cooper]

411A - wow 20000hrs + - I'm so impressed!!!
Tell me the sense in this - Emirates has FOs who have more hours and experience than some of its Training Captains and Line Checkers but yet they are not deemed suitable for upgrade!! Infact if these guys left and reapplied they could be Direct Entry Captains - makes no sense to me that they would rather take guys from outside (even someone with your attitude maybe) than take an FO with a validated Emirates past who knows the company???
Is that sensible?
No hard feeling but it stinks.
Any feedback from the Pilots meetings????:yuk:

[Scrod]

411a I do know some 20K+ pilots, and if you're one of those then if you're not actually dead then you're very nearly dead. Well done. No offence. :p

Seriously, true experience is a combination of hours, sectors, relevant types and relevant areas of operation. You can have 15k+ pilots who have only ever flown 3 to 4 routes in the last 10 years. Also, the older gaffers tend to be poor to adapt to change (not all) and find type conversion difficult. I've met all too many of them. But really, some of them are my best friends :cool:

Valid points Silky and mini

[411A]

Of course there have been more incidents with 12,000+ guys Silky, simply because there are far more of them in Command...while the 6,000 hour guys will just have to wait their turn or, be at the right place at the right time.
In addition, been flying outside the US for thirty years+, so your comments have absolutely no merit.

mini cooper,

What EK should properly do is select some of their line Captains and send 'em on check/training courses.
Unfortunately, from comments on another thread, office politics is in play so that option may well be closed for the present time.

Scrod,

Not even close to dead, but thanks for your concern..:E

[max AB]

411 You are a busy chap, all that flying and time to type as well....I just finished reading a bio of one of you fellow countrymen, John Glenn. You know a funny thing, he has only about 3000 hrs jet time...how about that. I guess you would rate him as pretty inexperienced then. Or perhaps its not the logbook that maketh the man...

[Fugazi]

411A... I must admit that most things you say generally hit the nail on the head. Not to say I always agree with you...but you do have a knack of telling how it is..Either you are more honest than most with your views, or you simply post to sensationalise...I am beginning to sway to the former. You also seem to know an awful lot about EK. Care to share how? I think an awful lot of people on these various forums have their heads buried in the sand. Maybe I do to! Come on the rest of you, I am waiting to be shot down in flames...But be honest and realistic with your replies. Unfortunately management rule...We are merely the hired help. Sad but true.

[411A]

Fugazi,
It's not that I know all about EK, but they do seem to be making the very same basic mistakes that many rapidly growing new aircarriers experience (have worked for three)...

First guys in advance eventually to the head shed, where they set up their little empires (soon to become big empires), then shortchange the training department (politics usually), resulting in a training shortfall...direct entry guys needed (EK) or...more DE guys required (other affected carriers).

Have been in a line training capacity for a long time and it ain't rocket science, but it does need support from senior management, which in EK's case, appears to be definately on the back burner during the recent past, if comments on another thread are to be believed.

Personally believe experienced guys that applied in the recent past (now First Officers) in retrospect should have waited just a bit longer...all the right signs were there if you looked deeply enough...or had seen it transpire in another company.

You pays your money, takes your chances.

Five will get you ten that a very few new DE Captains will adopt the 'gear up--shut up attitude' with these same First Officers in residence now, and the picture ain't gonna be pretty.

[Life as a journey]

I know a lot of 10,000+ hour pilots with many more than 3000 hours wide body PIC.

At 40, I'm one of them. And I'm applying to EK.

To suggest you merit a crack at Command is fine, and I'm sure you'll still get it. The airline is growing rather quickly, remember.

[scotchontherock]

Scrob : so what are you going to do when you reach that magical number of 10.000+ hrs and by any chance you are in the need to look for a job??????say that you have 6.000 hrs..??????

Silky: don't fly too much because you are going to reach 12.0000 hrs pretty fast an will become a dangerous pilot.....come on guys we all are pilots and if we are fortunate enough we will have that kind o experience so please be honest don't fool yourselves.....SOTR

[Jim Morehead]

This has turned into an interesting thread. Actaully I haven't found any terrible postings here. It seems that often SOME with low time don't understand how the people with 10K/15K/20K got there. Often it is a jealousy thing. Unforunate.

The comment about that somebody from the outside as a direct entry Captain is somehow "incompetent" is totally b.s.! The biggest problem that I have encountered thus far is not flying the airplane, but remembering which procedure to do next.

Different airlines do things entirely different and no way is wrong! Different airplanes have installed different "toys" on their jets often because the management of any airlnes thinks they need something. Let me illustrate.

At United and China when the airplane is NOT on the autopilot, you have to ask the PNF to do the MCP things. At United, even when on the autopilot, the PF does his own MCP twisting with the exception of the Altitude. That is ALWAYS moved by the PNF and a point to the altitude is required. I think most US carriers do the same thing. I have ridden jumpseats at almost all US carriers.

At China (and I understand EVA) the PF does this own MCP changes AND can (is expected to) make the altitude changes on the MCP. There is no pointing.

So here are two different philosophies. One carrier wonders why you aren't making the change and at the other, you'll either get fired or fail a check for touching the MCP altitude knob.

At UAL, there was no autostart on the 400. The 777 had autostart. At United, F/Os started the engines with "manual" start and started the clock. The engine start was 4/1/2/3.

At China, there is a 400/744 autostart and Captains move the fuel control switch and start the engines. The start order is 4/3/2/1 and you CAN start more than one engine at once. In fact, if you don't the crew wonders why not!

So here are two examples of how different companies do things different. Learning the new "order of business" takes a few months,but it is hard unsafe as some writers suggest.

The last issue is about flight hours. Hours are an indirect way of judging experience. And I have 22,000 hours and actually did not fly much during my career. I could have easily flown another 10,000,but did not much at United compared to other carriers' norms. I also have to say that I am not close to death. At least I don't think I am!!!!

So inferring that anyone with 20,000 hours+ is "about done" with his life is really stretching it!

I was surprised by the John Glenn hours information assuming it is correct. But there is not a whole lot of difference between 10,000 and 20,000 hours,but there are different stages in a pilot's life where there ARE big changes and big improvement marks.

[scanscanscan]

How about.... Gulf Air and Emirates become one company?
They then establish another corporate base as a flag carrier for the Bahamas in Nassau.
They now become a truely round the world airline with headquarters in two tax havens.
Cathay tried that in 1968/1970 as plan A with the Chineese takeover of HKK starting to loom.
This idea although started with the takeover of Bahamas Airways eventually failed due to Bahamian politics.
Things could be very different today as the present Bahamian Government is said to welcome foreign investment.
The Arab exslavers working with the Black Bahamian ex slaves managed by Mr Hogan and his Australians ex convicts.
Time maybe to think global again?
Everyone could now be a Captain.
Problem is but being based in the Bahamas nobody would ever want to go flying.

[wagtail23]

Gotta be said, but you seem to be calming down in some of your post 411A.........you have been taking your pills haven't you??!!

The company has said that anyone who is currently employed and has the requirements for the DE Captains will automatically be put forward for upgrade..............

............so that should sort out whether you should have waited or not!!

The problem here is one which the company will not resolve in the near future: upgrade will come when you have the relevant time, in both hours and in the company.

So performance is not an issue. ALL pilots when employed by EK are recruited as POTENTIAL captains, not first officers (ok, a bit naive maybe, but that's what you are told during the interview process).

So now you get a 146 captain with in excess of the required hours can get an accelerated command, with no long, international, different procedures experience. Then you get the chap who has all that experience, but not enough command hours who is not eligible................

..............but guess which bunch has the highest rate of High Energy Approaches?? No surprises it's the 146 drivers. Strange that!

What most EK pilots would like to see is a FAIR system of upgrade, based on previous experience, not just hours, but total experience, combined with a FAIR judgement of performance during their time in the company.

And guess what; there is a local ex-military f/o who wants to get into the left seat ASAP, but he is useless. But guess what: I'll bet he gets the accelerated command anyway, even if he crashes the sim during his training!!

That's what I mean by a FAIR assessment.

I really, REALY hope I am proved wrong, but watch this space.............

Enough ranting, I'm off for my nightly shot of valium............ah, that's better.

Safe landings.

[max AB]

WagTail what you say about a fair system of upgrade is good but I think you unfairly stick it to the 146 Gomers. I don't believe there could be such a monumental difference between long and short haul, you are just on the airway for longer. Different procedures sure, but again no major event after the first exposure. If 146 guys are having a problem with approaches as you claim then that is a training issue not an experience issue.

[Zomp]

wagtail23,
can't agree more with you and your opinion about the 146 boys.
flew with your ex royal airforce guy not long ago, couldn't take his crying about beeing in the wrong seat anymore.

[White Knight]

I have to say I take offence to the insinuation regards 146 drivers:mad: :mad:
I've been on line several months now on 330, can't say that the basic energy management is much different in principle. Sure, the 146 could do 250 kts to 8 miles and be at Vref 120 +/- at 3 miles, but when you change types it really isn't difficult to learn the differences with the slippery aeroplane.
In fact, the only high energy, unstable approach I've seen on line was on the CAPTAINS sector, and the guy has never been near a 146 in his life. Chew that one over boys. Oh yes, I did give plenty of hints, but they were ignored:sad: :sad:

Giving us all a bad rap for the misdemeanours of a few is not really on.....

[330Driver]

White Knight, the only approaches you would see messed up would be the Capt's if you are sitting in the RHS, unless it is of course you.
Emirates does not have a unstable approach problem, they are pretty well on industry standard for 330 & 777 operators, AFAIK there is no data available on who is doing whatever approaches that are deemed unstable, just a lot of subjective opinion.
As a matter of course, new guys to the 330 will have more automation and energy issues than people who have been flying it a while, its pretty obvious really. As we have lots of new pilots all the time, there are plenty of guys going through the learning process of new types and enviroments. Especially as training is being continually trimmed to save costs.
Common sense really!

[wagtail23]

Sorry guys, didn't mean to get under your skin so much, especially you 146ers. To be honest, the greatest number of unstable approaches, like accidents, occur when the captain is flying (he knows best eh?) and no matter how much prompting you give him, that irresistible dark hole looks ever so inviting!!

But you have to ask why the company has upped the command requirements surely, and that bit about the 146ers was straight from a highly placed source (no I am not a journalist, but I will protect my sources - or I will be found out and sacked, or shot, or get an extended stay at the Jumera Hilton!!)

The company gets a good look at each individual during the selection process, so why not make a decision concerning that individual about their command potential: previous command experience on FBW or 777/767/757 etc and loads of good 'ticks-in-the-boxes' should get you an accelerated command IF your performance has warranted it. Then there's the F/O only chap with limited experience and hours who would definately benefit from 3 years in the left seat. Then the big amorphous mass in the middle who have loads of experience (even ex RAF types who cry a lot!!) who when their performance and experience levels warrant, should get a shot, and not have to wait for the grass to grow (takes a long time in the pit).

Try doing a sim support for a chap 2 years your senior, and watch what happens on the LOFT (I realise that the pressure of upgrade loft sims can turn you into mickey mouse) but should you really be expected to lead them by the hand through what should be COMMAND decisions?

Will you stomach the thought of the village idiot who scores average (though in reality should be a fail) getting his comand ahead of you just because he has comand hours in George W Airways when your PERFORMANCE has been much better throughout your career.................hum?

Ponder a while and send your answer to [email protected]

Fly safe, and just remember (as I have, having read what I have written) that htis is a RUMOUR network, not a WHINGE network!! But where else can we let off steam anonymously (SP)

There coming, and there her to stay (DECs) just as long as the upgrades contine.

[max AB]

Wagtail , What a better airline EK will be when you get your command. I am sure when FOs do support for your sims they will look at you and only hope to ever be half as good.

[wagtail23]

Hey Max

......was it your hand I had to hold??