Engineers Salary

[Military Man]

Firstly before i am hunted by the administrators, i apologise for posting two threads next to eachother, it wasnt until i had posted the first thread that i realised i needed to ask this question.

I have just began an Aerospace Engineering Mechanical BTEC Higher National Diploma which will last 2 years, after that i will recieve my JAR66 licence and then go to Newcastle Avaition Academy to do their degree course.

My question is, wiht these qualifications what sort of salary can an engineer expect to recieve.

I have recently converted from wanting to be a pilot to an engineer and do not know much about the salary etc so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks a lot guys and girls

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you look on the Engineering Council (or whatever they're called this week)'s website they annually publish a very useful (in pay negotiations!) salary survey giving distributions for different levels of qualifications in different sectors of Engineering. That should give you a fair idea.

G

[Military Man]

Thank you very much for your time, ill be sure to check it out.

Thanks again, appreciated

[Genghis the Engineer]

The Engineering council website is at http://www.engc.org.uk/, I'm afraid that the various reports are usually stored in tortuously large .pdf files. Best thing I find is to set them downloading then go and put the kettle on or have a shower.

Also worth, just for kicks, reading the incredibly feeble excuses given on there under "why isn't the title Engineer protected in the UK".

G

[Wizzo the Wonderful]

There's a salary survey for aircraft 'engineers' at http://www.airemploy.co.uk/salary_survey.asp

Seems to be current.

[Military Man]

Thanks a lot G and WW, greatly appreciated

[Bodjit]

Hey MM,

Why do the uni degree.......

I was also a squaddy d:mad:k once upon a time then I saw the light.

Managed to move from rotary to fixed wing and I'm happy with my 33k ta very much....

Make a realistic plan and stick to it then take these 3 easy steps:

1. Get out
2. Get your licence
3. Get your dream job...

Steps 1 and 2 may be changed if reqd.

Good luck marra (Only applicable as long as you're not a crab d:mad:k)

Bodjit

[eng123]

This is an interesting topic.
As an approved JAR 66 B1 holder,you could expect to earn up to 46K in my airline,plus an extra 5-10K with a bit of overtime.As I have no idea,how does that compare to the 'real' engineer's Genghis?

[spannersatcx]

eng123, what airline, and who do I see about a job there.

[Genghis the Engineer]

If you can't read the Engineering council salary survey for yourself 123, I'm sure your union rep will oblige, I'm too busy.

G

[Golden Rivet]

To busy with a post total of 1757 ?

:confused:

[asheng]

I like eng123 am a Jar 66 B1 licence holder and earn pretty much the same so the options are there for a reasonable standard of living within the industry.

The drawback is that you are expected to get off you butt and give a bit in return but this is only natural.

Earnings last year topped over 55k with wasnt too bad for someone without a degree in an industry that some would have you believe is essential to allowing yourself to be called an "Engineer".

How much does a degree holding all encompassing "Engineer" pick up in this business as the majority of ones I have met are very candid over this and just about everything else they get/give to the industry?

Just a question, maybe Ghengis can provide the answer, He seems to know lots

[the egg man]

ghengis.....oh ...please....please...do take the bait..
we all do love your banter it really does make good reading.
in your eyes i am not a real engineer,but who cares you can call me AIRPLANE FIX IT BOD.but almost 70k as a licenced connie i laugh when my manager complains that i earn more than him...
ha ,ha,ha.

[Blacksheep]

Viewed from the outside, UK continues its inexorable decline; the nation seems obsessed with trivia and luvvies. Hardly anything truly productive happens there anymore. As I write this I can see a view over the former De Havilland works at Hatfield. Cheap & nasty timber frame housing sold at exhorbitant prices, a few warehouses and the HQ of a mobile phone company are a poor substitute for the loss of almost an entire industry.

As the technicians above gloat over their vastly inflated salary claims I reflect that its no wonder all the really productive 'wealth creators' like my brother, migrate to countries where their talents are truly appreciated. How do we relate the claimed 55K for an aircraft maintenance technician to my brother's 45K for a PhD in Civil Engineering? No wonder Dr. Blacksheep went abroad to continue his career of designing and building power stations.

Meanwhile the rail links between London and Scotland are cut and whole boroughs of the capital city have been without water for 5 days. Engineers. who needs them?

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[the egg man]

blacksheep
you are quite correct in your observation about the uk not apprecaiting talented engineers,
i do sympathize with your brothers low pay,but i am afraid it's horses for courses,i am sure he does not work nights,weekends,christmas day,news years day,in the rain,in the snow,in the cold,whilst having to meet a high degree of safety, as well as meeting an on time departure.
gloating i was not, my pay packet reflects my professional qualifications and the experience gained over 20 years.
i do not need a P:H:D. in aeroplane repair,but if needed i am sure most of the technicians (as you call us)are quite capable of gaining the level of academia of your self or your brother.
like your brother i have also left the uk to work overseas,reason being i earn more overseas and get treated as a professional and i dont get looked down upon because i wear overalls at work by some young jumped up university kid with no experience but has a P.H.D..

[Phil Lister]

Very well said egg man...

There are far to many people out there that base their worth on the fact that they have a degree. All that means is that they are capable of learning and someone had the means to pay for it.

Those of us who fix the airplanes are probably one of the most underated trades in the world. They think of us as mechanics, technicians, etc. Truthfully, we have to be more to be succesfull. We have to know more about the machine than those who fly it, we must also know how it works better than those who designed it. Why are we worth (but not necessarily paid) the big bucks?? Think about it...

So, for people to think we are just dumb grunts, well you should wake up and smell the coffee...

Phil

[Blacksheep]

Mmm, the coffee smells good.
I don't have a degree in engineering.
I did get my licence before the egg man was born - I still have it too.

My point is that engineering is a profession. As in lesser professions such as medicine, law and beancounting, new entrants generally start at the bottom and work their way up. Some may have a degree but they usually spend plenty of time on the shop floor getting practical experience before moving on to jobs where their academic training can be used to full advantage. I know of no case where a new graduate has entered the profession in a managerial or even supervisory position.

As regards salary and benefits, if the most experienced and best qualified practitioners at the top of a profession (and no, I don't include myself in that lofty band), are not well respected, that will reflect not only on their own salaries but right down through the layers to the new entrants. That is currently the case with engineering where, despite control of corporate activity being under the so-called financial experts, it is the engineers who take the blame for failures and thus suffer from low public regard.

Admittedly the effects of ill-considered cost cutting are also beginning to be felt in other fields. (I do enjoy that advert where the bean counter is told that his dream means there are no more costs to be cut and he should try production instead.)

The world as we know it was developed by those with a flair for improving things - it was the mechanically minded cavemen that built a better fireplace, made a better spear point and so on... The guys painting the walls, chanting to the gods and organizing the war parties were no doubt very useful too, but it was the mechanical men and women that dragged humanity into civilisation. For some reason, engineers are their own worst enemy, wasting time arguing among themselves about who is the most useful. In truth we are all needed, but it is the men and women who develop new things and thereby create wealth that are the most useful. Mending things or keeping the wheels turning smoothly is all very well, but it is innovation that contributes the most to human development. When we stop rewarding those who create new wealth our society goes into decline.

Think about it - what is the big difference between the era of those other great engineers Watt, Stevenson, Brunel and the present day?

Apart from the absence of LAMEs that is... ;)

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[eng123]

Blacksheep,

'Vastly inflated salary claims'............

Oh no they're not:ok:

yours,

technician123

[Blacksheep]

Referring to the salary survey (http://www.airemploy.co.uk/salary_permy_view.asp) published via the AirMech website (unless a 'Duty Engineer' isn't what he used to be) there's no-one making anywhere near 46 thousand a year. The average works out at around 36 thousand which sounds more like the truth somehow. At 51K to 56K Gross there would hardly be a shortage of LAEs - given that it beats deep sea diving (average 60K) in working conditions and safety for example. :hmm:

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[spannersatcx]

I'd hardly call a survey an airmech an authorative document, would you? :zzz:

[Nopax,thanx]

Now one thing that's guaranteed to raise salaries is the old 'Supply and Demand' situation.

Sadly, tho', the cyclical nature of the airline business means that every ten years or so we experience a downturn. All of a sudden who needs flippin' engineers anymore?

By the time things are on the up again, there is enough of a pool to fill the need - then, just as it looks as though there may be a skills shortage, along comes the next dip......

Just my two cents' worth, what say the rest of you?

[Blacksheep]

So, now we've identified what's wrong at Bloody Awful / Big Airlines then ASFKAP. In my days there graduates still had to do time as 'Greenies' then work the shop floor for at least five years before they moved on through Development Engineering and beyond to management positions.

You're right, I've been out of the country for far too long but I haven't been able to find anyone willing to pay an experienced Avionics LAE the minimum of 36 thousand after tax that I would need to maintain my standard of living. [In fact, spanners, my interview experiences tend to validate the AirMech survey results as accurate]. I acknowledge that some 'Grabbers' may be ghosting an extra few thousand but I don't believe in working overtime just to meet my normal outgoings. Overtime is for extras like a third 4x4 for the housemaid.

No, I didn't work on Concorde Majors, I was one of the cavemen who worked in the adjacent bays back in the days of Tech Block B. One of Frank Hood's night time Boeing 707 worshippers.

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[asheng]

Blacksheep,

Couple of points to make here.

One,I also did a while with Big Airways and found the situation of that having a degree was a very rapid way of advancement.It was just a shame that the degree holding whizzkids didn't have a clue what they were talking about or doing by and large.Thus this rendered them pretty ineffective in the field of aircraft maintenance,which was our primary function at the time.It also meant that they were not very cost effective by virtue of the fact stated above.

But the company would rather have a vast number of ineffective expensive graduates on there payroll than invest in training to overcome the shortage of licensed engineers to allow there operations to be conducted with a modicum of safety. If allowed they would happily do away with all licensed engineers if they could and probably will soon be issuing all degree holder a JAR66 "c" licence as a way of saving valuble resourses (i.e money).

At this point the situation will become comical.

A question I was asked at a production meeting by a highly qualified graduate engineer in charge progress of our aircraft on its C check was :-

"From the previous shift meeting handover/report (late shift the previous day) we can assume that all flap functions will be started today as per the flow chart and this will be your teams responsibility?"

I asked "Have you surveyed the aircraft on the other side of the door here,the one in the hangar?"

His answer was " Yes,why?"

"Because if you have then you will surely have noticed that the trailing edge flaps are not yet fitted to the aircraft, they are the long thingys on the trestles and my guess is that to function them we would be advised to fit them first wouldn't we?"

:ok:

At this point the meeting was concluded and the chap was given a guided tour of the aircraft in bits.His comment was that on his flow chart productivity invested was showing that the aircraft was nearing completion. :- OOPS

This was not an isolated incident its a shame to say!

Point two,

Want to look at my pay slip,its a lot more than 36k?:=

Ps. Wheres Ghengis?

He's normally got a point or ten to make when these posts are about or has he taken early redundency?

[the egg man]

be fair asheng
maybe your highly qualified graduate engineer did not know where the hangar was,or did not know what a hangar is used for,because his flow chart did not mention the word,"HANGAR"

[Blacksheep]

asheng, the situation you describe is what all LAMEs were afraid might happen when JAR 66 was still a proposal for the future. The idea that anyone could run a hangar check within five years of walking through the door was always ridiculous.

I believe your pay slip may indeed show much more than 36K but how much of it do you get to keep? What I need to survive is a bare minimum of 36K in my pocket which amounts to something like 58K+ before deductions. If LAEs are indeed earning that much in UK as a matter of routine, I'm surprised that there should be a shortage. BTW how much does your useless graduate manager make? The situation that drove me overseas still seems to continue - Maggie's mob told me to get on my bike so I did, but its impossible to stop pedalling.

On another note, does Big Airways still have a B747 Line Captain in charge of Wide Body maintenance? I noticed that they brought in a retired Concorde pilot to explain to the public on television that an engine surge is just the engine 'backfiring' - engineers wouldn't be articulate enough to provide a better explanation than that. Its the way we mumble and grunt that puts people off. That and the gravel rash on our knuckles...

**************************
Through difficulties to the cinema

[avioniker]

Well, then, that's it.

You have all dashed my dreams of big money and high adventure in the aviation industry.

I was thinking of exploring the opportunities in Europe but if what I read in this thread is only half true you are all experiencing exactly the same problems we're having on this side of the "pond".

I guess the only significant difference is that over here we do commonly hire management straight out of university and those "managers" like to hire petrolium engineers into unsupervised positions as fuel systems engineers.

Based on your posts we're making about the same money for the same sized companies and suffering the same abuse at the hands of all those thirty-something managers.

:mad: :{ :yuk:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis is out of the country on a "flying" holiday.

Or to be precise, is sitting fuming a rental outfit in somewhere-or-other after refusing to accept a light single that was apparently signed off serviceable with a major fuel leak, missing harness and half the engine cowling fasteners hanging out - I stopped pre-flighting at that point, by somebody that I'm pretty certain none of us would consider deserves either the title "engineer" or the money I, AshEng, Blacksheep or any of the other regulars here make.

G

Who has never had this problem with aircraft maintained by Brits with any job title. Does anybody know who to talk to at FAA about maintenance standards?

[rwm]

I was looking for work back home last month, and sure I could find some work, but not decent work. The market is in a slump, and the jobs that are available are because nobody wants to work for the peanuts that are offered. I asked one prospective employer what he expects to hire for the money he offerd. His reply was someone like you that needs a job bad enough. I made more as an apprentice than he was offering for an experienced supervisor to oversee a heavy check.

I gues I must stay in my sandbox with all the other guys that aren't willing to work for the sheer enjoyment of it, and a bit of pocket change.