Do you fly without WX Radar?

[Long Haul]

A flight from our airline recently continued across Africa to Europe with both WX radar systems failing just after takeoff. This is legal since it was working at the time of dispatch, but... What would you have done?

[boxmover]

Day or Night?

[Carpe Diem]

By day, with good forcast on the weather chart ( wich is rarely the case our days ...) and on a trip with less than 4 hours ... and .. and ... and ... from my office ( nice & warm ) I can say I would have continue ...
But would have felt very unconfortable. It is acockpit decision, so if my collègue don't like it, then I do respect his opinion.

:rolleyes:
If some don't fell good in the cocckpit, let's change the situation ! First step for a safe flight ! :rolleyes:

[Tropical Update]

Had the problem once myself.Halfway a 4 hour flight.Radarantenna got stuck,no info.
In VMC but bad weather ahead.Decided to divert,with some good help from atc remained in VMC.

I would say weather is your biggest factor.

[fly4fud]

remember that AF 747 flight from South Africa that did an emergency landing in NCE (casualties from the storm they had encountered) a few years ago...
...crossing the ITF day or night without a WX radar is a very bad idea

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* cut my wings and I'll die *

[Long Haul]

This was at night, across the ITF. I don't know how the forecast was.

[SOPS]

Our ops manual says "land at nearest suitable airport, unless Day VMC is assured to destination."

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

As good a time as any to ask this question: Why do different crews with the same airline on the same type react to wx radar differently? Time and time again during bad weather we get one crew asking to turn left 10, right 20, etc and the guy behind just goes striaight on. Some of the gyrations are quite extraordinary - eg 747 into BNN wanted heading 200 and got down to MID before he'd turn R or L. Another guy at LAM came off heading 160 for 30-35 miles before turning right towards BIG. During both of these events other aircraft of similar type were making perfectly normal approaches.

Anyone have any ideas please? This really is meant to be an intelligent question from an experienced Heathrow Director. With busy traffic it's getting inccreasingly difficult to approve such deviations from routes and it's obvious that some crews simply don't realise that in certain circumstances they either hit a rain cloud or another aeroplane.

[Roc]

Heathrow Director,

I'm going to guess here and state that the decision to deviate, where and when, is probably the result of past experiences, coupled with company SOP. In the USAF we have pretty strict criteria concerning T-storm avoidance, above FL230 20 miles, below 10 miles, At my airline job its whatever your judgement decides. Also If a pilot devites 5 miles and gets clobbered and another finds 5 miles works fine you'll have two different requests. Having been caught in a Heavy T-storm in a T-37 (no Wx radar) I can tell you I err towards the more conservative..

[WOK]

Most of the a/c I've flown have had somewhat 'random' wx radars.

It may be that the a/c that took different routes were looking at different pictures......

[WeeWillyWinky]

A respected training captain that I know took off from SYD for BKK one night and the wx radar failed shortly after take off. They elected to continue based on forecasts etc but about 1 hour out from destination flew into violent cloud resulting in a cabin crew member being hurt. In conversation a few weeks later he sai that he now considers wx radar failure a diversion or return situation.

[Bigmouth]

I imagine it´s past experience. If you´ve flown a lot in the (sub)tropics a little green or yellow on the screen is just an opportunity to get your steed hosed off. Also, some guys actually look outside (!!) and make a visual, and usually more acurate assesment of the situation. People who have spent all their lives in the far northern hemisphere will gladly land when the braking action is .00, but get nervous at the sight of any puffy cloud.
Likewise some airports will report CB´s on ATIS at first sight of a cottonball, while others (closer to the equator) will not mention anything until they go above FL350.

[bank angle]

In this kind of situations I just ask myself: what do I have to win? What do I have to lose? Usually I have to lose much more than I have to win.

Regarding the WX deviations, I can only say that every pilot has different limits and once a CB shakes you, you'll never forget it. I'll rather be on the safe side and I like to take my own decisions regarding WX deviations regardless of what other pilots are doing.

[compressor stall]

Bloody Hell, oh to have a wx radar in an IFR lightie in the Northern Australian monsoon season. Now that I have left, I dunno if it big balled or just stupid....methinks the latter.

Rule number one when IFR in the murk and there are embedded CBs with no wx radar...follow the light...make each diversion around darkness ahead in the opsite direction and you'll come out somewhere remotely approaching track. Of course at night just miss the flashing bits.

Best wishes to all up there for the coming Wet.

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Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained.
William Blake

[turbosheep]

Long Haul,
If at night, another criteria is : any moon ?
Sometimes, when the moon is full, you can see weather for miles and able to do see-and-avoid.
Else, turn back and land.

[CuddyWifted]

Hello Heathrow Director,

I suspect that sometimes the differing avoid headings are because the same piece of weather 'looks' different from different angles. Sometimes the heading is also based on what you can or can't 'see' beyond the first piece of weather.

Penetration height also makes a difference - are you in the rain/hail/lightning strike likely height.

I am also much more conservative if the cabin crew are still out of their seats.

Aircraft have different rides in turbulence.
Examples might be - the A320 is different to the A321 and they are different to the B757 and all of these are different to the B747. Crews will make comfort decisions based on their experience, rules, company culture.

It's a while since I flew in/out of LHR so I don't know if you still don't have a wx radar display available to you. I do remember experiencing a number of days in a previous existence when the whole LHR arrival and departure flows were trashed by the controller being unable to see the weather we were all trying to find a way round/through. Equally, I remember being one of three aircraft being refused avoiding action at LHR due to parallel queues on right base. My aircraft just got a good thumping, but both the others ahead of me got multiple lightning strikes and one had the radome opened up by it. I can't help contrasting that with ORD and SIN to mention just two vastly different airports that provide the controllers with good weather info and so they handle wx quite elegantly, flexing departure and arrival routes. The habit of co-operation between controllers and pilots there is well established and trusted.

I am sure that, with the pressure of flow rates that you guys work under, it is frustrating to see a carefully shoe-horned plan get chewed up by us wandering around.

What can you do to help us, and what can we do to help you?

[tired]

Long haul - at night, across the ITCZ? Never, never, never! I've been frightened witless too often in that area with the radar serviceable, I'd never even think of trying it without radar, I don't care what the forecast says. Someone else has already mentioned the Air France 747 that tried it!
As far as I'm concerned the radar is a no-go (or diversion)item in longhaul flying, especially at night.

[This message has been edited by tired (edited 28 November 2000).]

[Centaurus]

One of life's most sobering experiences is to be dead-heading down the back of the aircraft, knowing full well that the radar is unserviceable up front, you are in constant cloud cover,it is nighttime and the forecast is occasional embedded Cb tops 45,000. And the captain is a company man who sticks to schedule. And another 4 hours to go. And you can see reflected lightning. If you are comfortable with that, then the best of British luck to you as far as I'm concerned... Does that answer your question?

[Royan]

FAR 121.357 - Airborne weather radar equipment requirements.
2) If the airborne weather radar becomes inoperative en route, the
airplane must be operated in accordance with the approved instructions and
procedures specified in the operations manual for such an event.

[Warped Factor]

CuddyWifted,

There's no weather radar, aside from a useless little met office MIST display on a single PC, in the whole of the Terminal Control Ops Room at LATCC. That's Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton and Stansted approaches plus all the other TMA operation.

Maybe one day......if it is not seen as an unecessary luxury after we're PPP'd :rolleyes:

WF.