Concorde Crews to Strike

[pic744lhr]

Further to the previous thread, I was told today by someone at Heathrow that the Concorde crews were pressing for an immediate strike ballot this week.

:eek:

I don't know if it's just the Flight Engineers or the Pilots as well.

Anybody heard anything? Are there any Concorde crews out there?

[rupetime]

Arnt they missing the point somewhat ?

Ground it now and bring forward the inevitabe.

rt

[TwoTun]

There is a certain amount of truth in what has been said. I can't speak for the Pilot's Ballot, but....

.....the remaining Flight Engineers in BA (all 18 of us) have been shabbily treated over the whole affair. Our union, BALPA, have been in talks with the company for over 4 months now, trying to get some sort of severence / retirement deal out of the company. They have achieved the sum total of .... nothing.

We are not luddites. We knew that the days of the Flight Engineer was coming to an end as we were replaced by computers. We had hoped that we would be given a little bit of assistance as we were made redundant and headed off into the sunset, as it were. What we didn't know is that we would be discarded like so many pieces of scrap, in a manner that reflects no good on our managers, FLight Operations, and British Airways.

Anger on the Fleet is running very high. We (the Flight Engineers) have a final meeting with BALPA tomorrow, and we will be calling for a strike ballot. The Flight Engineers still flying the aircraft WILL NOT allow BA to make a great deal of capital, media exposure, and money from all the special flights next month (October) if at the same time they are shafting us.

Watch this space.
:mad:

[rupetime]

Wake up and smell......

[Youwererobbed]

What a load of absolute rubbish! There is no truth whatsoever in this rumour. Do feel sorry for the FE's who haven't been treated too well by BA or BALPA. The FE's would need a separate union to strike legally, I've certainly not got anything from BALPA about a strike ballot and to be honest there would be not much support for any action over just 18 guys doing an outdated job.

Didn't the company offer you guys the chance to carry on as Cabin Crew? As the pilots have done in the past?

[TwoTun]

Youwererobbed said:
"What a load of absolute rubbish! There is no truth whatsoever in this rumour."

I normally don't rise to flame-bait, but as it's been a while, I really can't resist.

Not a rumour - fact. Wherever you get your information from - it's wrong. I will be at that meeting tomorrow, and having talked to my contempraries, I can say with confidence that there will be a call for a ballot.

You then went on to state:

"Do feel sorry for the FE's who haven't been treated too well by BA or BALPA. The FE's would need a separate union to strike legally, I've certainly not got anything from BALPA about a strike ballot and to be honest there would be not much support for any action over just 18 guys doing an outdated job. "

Again, a load of horse manure. There is, according to BALPA, no necessity to involve any pilot in this dispute. It is perfectly legal for the Flight Engineers to ballot and strike independant of the pilots.

Then the drivel continued with this offering:
"Didn't the company offer you guys the chance to carry on as Cabin Crew? As the pilots have done in the past?"

The pilots may have done so in the past. It's obviously easier for Pilots to work as Cabin Crew than it is for Professional Flight Engineers.

I personally have no desire to be Cabin Crew - I have nothing against Cabin Crew, but I've been a Flight Engineer for 30 years, and asking me to re-train as Cabin Crew is like asking Doctors to work as Nurses for the rest of their career.

So, basically, everything you said was based upon mis-informed information, if you based it upon anything at all.

OK, no more Flame-Bait guys, OK?

[Mikey21]

Sorry to go sideways here,
I heard hat the big bird was suppose to come to toronto next month??
Is it true, (I guess if the F.E aren't on strike:O )
Just wondering when? cause i would like to get my picture taken.
Take it easy, what a bird, i will miss it, for once we did better than the Yankees:8

[millerscourt]

What makes these Flight Engineers think they are something special?? Their job has come to and end like so many others these days. Sad but true. Any of these guys should know their days were numbered.

Professional Flight Engineers are a thing of the past,just like Wireless Operators,Navigators,Lighthouse Keepers,Coal Miners and so on. What on earth do you expect BA to give you???????? I suspect you all have pensions that most of us would die for!!

Sure you can all walk out in a sulk as you are finished in aviation.It will save BA a lot of money!!

[crewrest]

I heard there were Virgin Atlantic Flight Engineers at Filton recently.

[Youwererobbed]

Oh dear that's some ego you got there Two Tun. I've got news for you being a FE is not like being a DR, it's like being a DR's assistant. Actually that's not true either cos you are # 3 in the list of order givers. An assistants assistant. If the more highly trained pilots were prepared to work as Cabin Crew then so should you. Your job is no longer needed, you had the chance to re-qualify as pilots and the suitable guys have done so and most are a pleasure with which to fly. But your attitude is the reason you are getting virtually zero support from your soon to be ex-colleagues.

That enough bait for you!

[bullshot]

Two Tun

Forget these idiots.

They are either not pilots or if they are they have never had the privelege of flying an aircraft that requires a Flight Engineer

I miss you Guys! Aviation is much the poorer without you - imagine what it must be like sharing a 2 crew flight deck with the likes of the above morons....

[TwoTun]

Oh OK, I know I said I wouldn't. but it really is very hard keeping the ol' fingers off the keyboard.......

Youwererobbed - FOAD

[Anthony Carn]

Compare this reaction to that of the MyTravel DC10 F/E's who are simply being made redundant. Goodbye. Get lost. Shove off.

But then, there is no comparison with the real world and Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense).


As for BALPA not achieving anything, what a surprise ! BA's very own private Union, sorry Association too ! Bad show you chaps !

[Carruthers]

Now let me get this straight, the FE's are no longer needed, indeed redundant, so they are going to go on strike?
Presumably BA will observe the terms of thier contract so what is the problem?

[Youwererobbed]

I was only joking! Thought that you might need more bait to get you riled.

I do think that you have been poorly treated, but your plight is getting zero exposure if the rest of the FC in BA know nothing about your "ballot". BALPA will be on dodgy ground if you guys go for strike action without the rest of the membership being involved. That means that individual fleets could strike, or just FO's etc. If you are looking for sympathy then the BACC are doing a poor job in getting the rest of the team behind you. You haven't been helped by some of the more extreme of your colleagues who have posted on the BALPA forum in the past.

[JW411]

"I was only joking"

Like hell you were. I'll bet you could turn a 747 through 180° on a 45 metre wide runway in 2 nanoseconds!

[POMpous]

Gotta say......
I usually find the 'demanded respect' and the 'world owes me a living' attitude of some of the pilots posting here, quite laughable.
But this chap has a good point, he realises the F/E role is about at an end, but expects his parting at least reasonable.
All the best to him and all the Flight Engineers.

[Bellerophon]

Youwererobbed

Your laughable ignorance, regarding the current situation in BA and the history behind it, as exhibited by the many factual errors in your postings, might be excused on the grounds that checking facts before posting appears to be an alien concept to you.

Your arrogant comments, referring so demeaningly and dismissively to a group of valued and long-serving colleagues who are about to lose their jobs, are another matter, and are frankly beneath contempt.

Concorde Flight Engineers are held, almost universally, in high regard by those who have met them or worked with them. Your remarks, which tell us far more about you than about them, somehow lead me to doubt that the same will ever be said of you.

This dispute is not about whether they will go, but the manner of their going. It is about whether promises made earlier will be honoured, a subject which should be of concern to all their soon-to-be-ex colleagues, including those on the Airbus fleet.

Regards

Bellerophon

[woodpecker]

You have my support Two Tun

From my days in Balpa (retired you see) I seem to remember BA trained some Classic engineers as pilots.

Am I also correct in thinking that they offered others a reasonable severance package?

Post 9/11, with the remaining Classics phased out early they (BA management) renaged on the severance package that their colleagues had received and it took your fellow colleagues (pilots) from all flight decks within BA to give up part of our pay deal to look them.

With regard to Concorde, did you ever expect to be treated any differently? When you have Bannister at the reigns (who with his management extractions) only looking after himself there was little chance of the "unsung heroes" on the aircraft being "looked after".

I hope you get what you want tomorrow, cos if you dont you would have got my vote (if I had one) for a strike.

[Lucifer]

Bet that half the inflammatory replies are from management.

[frangatang]

Guess who captained the last concorde into barbados,none other than Bannister. Now wouldnt that ruin his history book if there wasnt a last triumphal run of flights next month!

[exeng]

Promises were made to the Concorde F/E's that have been subsequently broken.

They have every right to feel aggrieved at the situation they now find themselves in.

I'm heartened to see the support given to them here by some of the Pilots on the fleet, people who really understand what a fine task they have carried out in maintaining such a safe operation over all these years.

B.A. should wake up and realise that loyalty is a two way street. It is immoral to discard people like some piece of trash when they have decided that they have no further need of them, particularly when to date their continued loyalty has been purchased with false promises.

The best of luck Two Tun , and the rest of you.


Regards
Exeng

[Hand Solo]

Anthony Carn - you are a plonker! There is an obvious anti-BA tone in almost everything BA-related you post on this forum. You have no knowledge of the severance terms agreed between the Concorde F/Es and BA. You are qualified to comment neither on the BA F/Es severance, nor the support they have amongst the BA pilot community. Perhaps you should consider the fact that Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense) was also formerly the worlds most profitable airline. Concorde played a large part, both directly and indirectly, in that profitability. The F/Es have performed a highly specialised and indispensable task in operating the flagship of our fleet, and are now being hung out to dry whilst managers sit at home on full pay.

[woodpecker]

We all know at least two of the management pilots, Bannister and Brodie, but are there any others?

Also more importantly are there any management engineers to sit behind aforementioned "aces"should there be a strike?

Mind you, even with his skill Bannister can only fly one at a time so the planned "hat-trick" of conc arrivals would be kicked into touch.

[Lloydm]

I have great sympathy for anyone that finds their career coming to an end but it happens every day to far more qualified and less well paid individuals than Concorde crew.

My own ended in 1996 when the North Sea entered its final slump. I saw it coming and got out.
At the age of 39 I went back to University for four years. Lost the house, car etc ,(Divorce) I ended up sharing a student flat with 6 20yr olds. In addition I worked 3X12 hr shifts at the weekends.........yes you read that right.( nightshift Fri,Sat and Sun).
Come Saturday mornings I had been on my feet for 24hrs. In class on Mondays I sat there after only 2hrs sleep. During vacations, I worked every hour I could, all for minimum wage. This went on for four years...non- stop and I know others that worked even harder than this
In the end I had an Accountancy Hons Degree and a new life ahead of me at the age of 43

I am now one of those despised beancounters and earning less than I did in 96. I doubt if I will see an S61 again but If I can reconstruct my life anyone can, and no doubt I will have to do the same again.

This world owes no one a living...and to think your a special case is to not only denigrate those who haven't been so lucky as you, but to make the inevitable harder on yourselves.

No one said life would be easy

Good Luck

[GS-Alpha]

If you were about to lose your job, and had absolutely nothing to lose (other than a last month's pay) by striking and trying to get a better deal when you leave - what would you do?

For BA's sake, I would like there to be no further strikes, but I totally understand where the engineers are coming from.

[jongar]

the world does not owe these guys a living, common sense says they should have tarted looking for other opportunities after the AF crash. however i do suport them - they deserve a reasonable severance based on time served - they should also be iven the opportunity to apply for ratings on other BA craft, but thats all. Go on strike - youll be helping VS

[woodpecker]

I had the pleasure of sitting next to the engineer on the way to New York, he never stopped.

One could suggest it is quite easy for the two in the "front seats". No slats, no flaps, just a clean wing and a nose with a hinge on it (I bet the engineer controlled that also).

However as all if us who have done a course in sub/supersonic aerodynamics will know the centre of lift moves about quite a lot.

The engineer has the job of pumping fuel around the airframe to try and get the C of G somewhere near the C of Lift. Also juggling with trying to keep the punters cool with skin temperatures of 120C. All this with 1960's technology.

I applaud their skill and dedication to a job which has been underrated over the years.

I never had the pleasure during my 35 years flying to operate with an engineer. I think I missed out.

[FlexibleResponse]

There is a special relationship between aircrew (pilots/flight engineers) and aircraft. Without one the other is meaningless. No management wants useless hunks of tin lying about the tarmac bleeding the company of money. So they offer aircrew contracts consisting of money, benefits and promises in return for performance, dedication and work/schedule stability.

In this case it would appear that BA pulled the plug on the Concorde early. This has caused a material change in the expectations of the engineers and the promises made by management or implicit in their contracts.

As a result, the flight engineers would also seem to be equally within their rights to pull the plug on the Concorde. It comes down to a question of negotiating fair compensation for the early cessation to the careers of the flight engineers. The bargaining position of the flight engineers is diminishing by the minute and they need to work quickly.

Good luck and hopefully the last flight will be be on schedule.

[P24BA]

I have sympathy for the F/Es - or anyone losing a job. But aren't they being offered a) another job, like Cabin Crew, at full F/E salary + allowances or b) the same early leaving deal as the other BA Staff going under Future Size & Shape?

[stormin norman]

The Flight Engineers Job has been in decline for years
Two Tun has some good points but i bet he has
the option of early retirement on a nice pension,
or the chance of another job within the company
on the same pay.Some staff in the same situation
got off there arse and got on with life. You don't know
how lucky you are.............Reply ?

[mainfrog2]

Are flight engineers able to retrain on other aircraft like pilots do?

Just curious that there may be work on other aircraft that require engineers, maybe as part of their package they could retrain on other aircraft. I think the 747-200, classic still has engineers. There's probably still work, just that there isn't any on Concorde.

[Freeway]

Firstly :
The way that BA is treating their FE's is contemptable.
The days of Concorde operations are indeed drawing to a close and it is unfortunate that BA are showing such a lack of respect and empathy for their FE's ; many who have given their entire working life to the company.
The FE's have my fullest support. It seems these days, that the only way to get the message across to the suits in Waterside is to strike. Very sad indeed.

Secondly :

It is so unfortunate that Bannister is allowed to skim all the cream off the top of the flying programme. Why do the rest of you put up with this puffed up, egotistical a****le?
If you look at the majority of publicity shots of Concorde, you would think that Bannister was the only pilot on the fleet!

I hope that the retirement of Concorde goes well. It has served BA well and has reserved its place in the aviation history books.
I just hope that BA wake up and smell the roses and give their FE's a decent severance while sharing the final few flights fairly between the line jocks ( not the management ) who, after all, have been doing the majority of the flights since 21st January 1976.
:ok:

[Gaza]

In this case it would appear that BA pulled the plug on the Concorde early. This has caused a material change in the expectations of the engineers and the promises made by management or implicit in their contracts.

Please spare the Violins - "Material change in the expectations" - what complete and utter nonsense. Like many thousands of other people I was in a good secure job. Suddenly the economy goes tits up and my job isn't so secure anymore. I was given a reasonable pay-off and took the long walk. Nine months on I'm still looking for another job. Am I bitter towards my former employer? Not one bit. They did what they had to do for the survival of their business.

When employers need to make people redundant, legally. they must look at alternatives such as redeployment. BA have done that, offereing FE's the chance to retrain as CC. If the market was better then I assume they would have offered retraining as Flight Crew, subject to age. If redeployment is not an option then redundancy or early retirement is the next step.

I have no idea what package BA are offering to those being made redundant. There are two scenario's.

1. The legal minimum
2. An enhanced redundancy/early retirement package.

If BA are going along the first route then I feel very sorry for the FE's. While they are doing nothing illegal it is wrong to treat long serving employees in this way.

If they are taking option 2 and it is substantially better than the legal minimum then I see little grounds for the FE's to strike. All that will happen is they will lose a month or so's salary while on strike and end up with the same package they were offered. Alternatively, BA could withdraw their offer and give the legal minimum.

[PAXboy]

mainfrog2: In a word - No.

BA does not operate any 74 Classics and no other FE posts exist in the airline. These 18 are the last of a breed (within BA). Other FE posts around the world are all being scaled down.

[P24BA]

Freeway

Cupla points:-

!) Strikes are disaster - did you se BA's share price today? What about the Pension Fund?

2) You slag Banister off - that's OK 'cos he's management

But a mate of mine, who's SSC crew, says he's:-

Got the pilots twice a year trips for their wives

A week in Barbados rather than paxing home

Oh ... and got the aircraft back in the air after Paris!

[maxalt]

Don't know much about this mess, but it seems likely the FE's have a bit more leverage than some may think.

Simply put, I can't forsee BA allowing their flagship...the pride of British Aviation...fizzle out with an ignominious fart of petty squabbling, instead of the blaze of glory they no doubt have planned for it.

That would only serve to remind the whole world that BA is still one of the 'sick old men' of european airlines.:E

[woodpecker]

I will always remember sharing crew transport with a Concorde captain in JFK.

Due to a rostering error he had been approached to operate the next days morning departure and passenger back.

Dinner party arranged that evening, but with a short turnround in JFK he could get there and back in the day and still go out for dinner...some sort of record? He agreed to their request.

All went well until, having operated the Concorde to schedule into JFK, he was refused a passenger ticket back on the evening Concorde! "Alas you dont have the status to pax on Concorde!"

He nightstopped in JFK, missed the dinner party, and positioned back the next day wth us.

Saw him some time later. It was payback time...when, a week after the above he was contacted again to do the same...."your the only one available..." The answer was "No!"

They cancelled the service.

The Concorde fleet has been run at minimum crewing lavels for years and it has always been down to "helping out on the day".

I am sure the engineers have been treated the same. Its payback time Bannister.

[Pnooze]

I had the pleasure of having a few pints in my local with a Concorde F/E several years ago, and wot a gentleman he was, happily putting up with bone questions from 3 Airbus drivers. It is very sad to see such a proffesional group being treated so shabbily. To be offered a cabin crew position is such a waste of engineering knowledge
Out of interest what was the severance deal for the large number of F/Es made redundant with the rapid demise of the 747 Classic 2 years ago?
Are their oppurtunities available with EAL, DAS, and other outfits in UK and Europe that have a/c requiring F/Es despite it being a dying trade?
As for Bannister i groan and reach for the bucket every time i see him on the telly. Is he the only Concorde driver? and what fleet is he going to? This said i can"t help thinking that this will all get sorted out and the F/Es will move on and be succesful in any new career.
:(

[astron]

Dear F/E,

You work for a big global company which has the funds and the inertia that ensures it will obey employment law. You work in area that is being phased out. In smaller companies management would corral you into a separate business unit and then collapse it, leaving you with no redundancy, no severance, possibly even no last months pay cheque.

I think you have spent too long inside the cacoon of big big industry. In post-Thatcher Britain the cushioning you guys will enjoy as your jobs come to an end is the envy of the average British worker.

Dont make fools of yourselves by throwing a big public tantrum. Have dignity. No matter how painful it is for you, you are the lucky ones - I cant imagine what a final settlement after 30 years must look like. It is somthing my generation will never know. Take it, enjoy it, be thankful for the wonderful carreer you have been priveledged to have, and go forward with you lives shored up with your severance - an opportunity so many wont enjoy

[HOVIS]

Suggest the FEs get in touch with the Concorde GROUND Engineers who, it appears are being similarly shafted!

Oh and the rest of BA Engineering is currently being balloted for industrial action.

Oh dear! :hmm:

[under_exposed]

astron
I cant imagine what a final settlement after 30 years must look like
The legal minimum is £7,200

[three_crew_better]

Um Hovis, your a tad out, the ground engineers are actually being balloted over whether to accept the pay deal or not. A YES vote, and they deal goes ahead, a NO vote, and then things go to the next stage.

Surely the F/E's knew that three man aircraft were a shaky employment prospect since the 80's?

Didnt BA run a pilot selection scheme in the 90's?

[Anthony Carn]

Hand Solo

You have no knowledge of the severance terms agreed between the Concorde F/Es and BA. You are qualified to comment neither on the BA F/Es severance, nor the support they have amongst the BA pilot community.
I will immediately admit that I am not qualified to comment upon the support from the pilot community. My reference to a lack of support, if you care to check my previous post, was aimed at BALPA. I referred not once to pilot support.

I also have no knowledge of the severance terms of the applicable BA F/E's. I do, however, know that there is a legal level of redundancy payment and a refusal by BA to pay that minimum ammount is the only legal justification for strike action. Anything more than the legal minimum is a bonus, for which the F/E's should be grateful. Are BA renaging upon a written agreement to pay out more than the legal minimum ?


Perhaps you should consider the fact that Planet Decadence (formerly Planet Taxpayer's Expense) was also formerly the worlds most profitable airline. Concorde played a large part, both directly and indirectly, in that profitability.
Perhaps you should consider that the inheritance left to BA upon privatisation was a complete airline, route structure and the massive majority of Heathrow slot allocations. The taxpayer forfeited a vast sum to establish BA as it was at that time. It was a giant, minnow-devouring monopoly. If you can't make a profit with that sort of an advantage, then you'd have to be trying to lose money on purpose.

The F/Es have performed a highly specialised and indispensable task in operating the flagship of our fleet, and are now being hung out to dry whilst managers sit at home on full pay.
Do you think that they're unique in that respect ? Take a look at the remainder of the airlines in the UK, nay, in the real world and how they consistently mistreat/have mistreated their loyal, hard working employees.


I stand by my previous post.


EDIT -- It occurs to me to ask, since you raised the subject, as to how you decide that Concorde has been a profitable concern.

But then, how stupid of me ! I had included the massive cost of Concorde's design, development and production in my calculations. Remind me -- who exactly payed for all of that ?

Ah yes ! BA's old favourite of that era, the taxpayer. :rolleyes:

[Brit312]

In the early 1990's British Airways decided that they wished to cancel the last remaining 40 pilot training courses at Prestwick, but were informed that under the contract they would have to pay for them anyway.
This led to BA offering those places to Flight Engineers who were under a certain age and who could meet the entry requirements.
Other than that there has not been any other F/E retraining schemes in BA.
As to the Concorde F/E many of them were encouraged by BA to leave the 747 fleet and convert onto Concorde, as due to their age they would be able to see the Concorde out to it's projected retirement date of around 2007.
This meant that when the Classic fleet was retired, they did not go after the jobs that came available elsewhere and which are now all filled. So yes they did know that the F/E job was coming to an end, but stuck with the company to ensure that the Concorde could continue flying, so perhaps BA does owe them something extra now that Concorde is to be retired early

[peergint]

Come on you guys...fight the retirement but striking will only make it harder to keep her alive, you must see that surely!

There are thousands of us out there who would do virtually anything we can to help you guys. You are the ones together wtih all involved who have made Concorde what she is, a national icon, and we want her in the skies.

So work to achieve that, not an earlier end than it already is!:ok:

[WeLieInTheShadows]

Why do they have a problem with being cabin crew?

Yes - I agree they are highly intelligent and trained individuals who's skills will be going to waste.

But - if your going to get the same pay but just in a different job then surely that's not so bad?

I'm sure there are plenty on the dole queue who would have jumped at a similar opportunity at their old jobs so they could keep paying the mortgage.

If BA are going back on written agreements then that is wrong, however if they offering you an opportunity to carry on flying (and doing an important job might I add - imagine all those pax who would love to hear all your Concorde stories) on your current pay, then I reckon you've got not a bad deal.

Anyone know how much FE's make a year? Doubt there are many juniort cabin crew in any airline on that kinda dosh. (Apart from the managers that have been sitting at home who have also realised what a cushy number it is and are also taking up the offer)

Whatever happens - I wish em all the best!

Good luck!:ok:

[three_crew_better]

Brit312, your almost spot on. But wasnt there a further pilot retraining scheme in the late 90's? I believe some who missed out the first time were successfull second time around.

As for the retirement date, I think you were correct it was a "projected" retirement date, not a guaranteed date, and hence some stayed rather than taking Classic jobs outside BA, a risk they weighed up at the time.

I am sure they have agreed over the last few years that BA needs to get rid of staff that are surplus.

What exactly is it they think BA owes them?

[fritzi]

Peergint said
fight the retirement but striking will only make it harder to keep her alive

You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.

The F/E´s only chance to get a better retirement package is to hit BA mangement where it hurts!


Good luck BA F/E´s!
Good luck TwoTun!

[BEagle]

'BA needs to get rid of staff who are surplus'?

Start with Marshall and King.....:yuk:

[stormin norman]

Does anyone know the ouTcome of the ballot?

Come on Two ton you must have your ear to the ground.

[exeng]

A bit early for the outcome of the ballot as I don't think the papers have been sent out yet.

You will see it on this forum in time.


Regards
Exeng

[Lloydm]

Two Tun

What would I do?

Bite the bullet. If you can get more and not strike.......go for it but know when your stepping off the edge.

Your are outnumbered and in situations like this the smart thing is to smile take the money and learn from it.

Concorde F/E's are too small a group to fight and win. Victory goes to the big battalions. Dont look for support from others it will be a long time before the 320/777 fleet go and while they may "support you" you wont find them risking that position

If you strike you will be portrayed as sulking children depriving the public of their farewell to a British technological icon,and the whole labour force is getting shafted every day so dont look for sympathy elsewhere.

Here is what you should do IMHO

Get your grieivances into the public domain.

Let the management do the threatening.

Imply that you have all found alternative employment and you will be leaving prior to redundancy..................no one blaims anyone for moving on and protecting your family's livelihood. ( NB I dont know your contractural liability) .

The market has two edges to it's sword. It is the world of ME PLC and if the phone rings at 10 in the evening with a better offer dont feel guilty for wearing someone else's uniform the next morning while your rostered flight sits at the gate

When I was in Crabair the rule was: do it then whinge.

Two Scenarios:

Overpaid dinosaurs ruin last flight of something that made this country great......Jane Public who, when she found out Concorde would be retired early cashed in her savings so that her disabled son could experience his dream........"How could they do this to us?"

Or


Now that Concorde has been retired it has emerged that BA reneged on agreements with its Flight Engineers.
Their spokesman Two Tun told us that "BA went back on every agreement it had made with us, and it bodes no good for every BA employee". Strike action was discussed but dismissed.
almost immediately. We all knew the significance to the public of Concorde, but more importantly to the young ( Jane Publics son in scene) who will never have the opportunity to experience this very special aircraft. What made this day special for so many is due to the dedication of the crews. We were lied to, cheated and treated abonobilly but there was no way we were going to let people like this young man down( Jane Ps son still in scene)


Time I stopped now but you get the idea


My best wishes

Abominably.et al before Im corrected lol

[peergint]

Fritzi said

You cant fight the retirement. She is being withdrawn from service, no matter what anyone does.

Fair point. But what I meant is fight that you are going to lose your jobs. That's the right thing, but striking wouldn't help. There are many of us guys out there who want her to fly to the date BA stated, Oct 24th, and not before, and if you strike, that date could be brought forward. Something we don't want!

There are many of us who are trying our best to stop the retirement. We have organised a petition, written to many companies to request their support to BA to help with costs of maintaining her, and we have been writing to the government, and the Tories to try to get assistance. It doesn't stop there. We are trying everything. After all this was made with our money and BA have been damned fine cartakers, (yes I know they bought them) and we want them flying until the real time for retirement, which is not now!!!!

We are not lying down as the French would. We want our aircraft to fly even if the French don't want to fly theirs. Funny how they're keeping one of them in working order, though, at least hydraulically!

No why is that, if the aircraft is not going to fly again?

[Say again s l o w l y]

I cannot believe that people are seriously suggesting that it is O.K for the F/E's to be told to become CC. Get real! No offense to cabin crew but you wouldn't catch me doing it in a million years (I'd be in prison within a week for GBH), a bit of a come down from being the most important part of the most fantastic commercial a/c of all time.

All the pilots who are telling these guy's to just accept it because times are hard should hang their heads in shame. What will your reaction be if in 20 years we have the same discussion about pilots becoming technologically redundant?
I think we would hear a bit of bleating then....

Good luck with the action it's just a shame that is had to go that far.

[Gaza]

Say again s l o w l y - As I said in an earlier post, BA are obliged under employment law to offer alternatives to redundancy such as redeployment. By offering positions as CC, they have met that obligation.

Concorde is going. The Classics have gone. No other aircraft on the BA fleet requires FE. I'd be delighted to hear what you think BA should do with a workforce that is no longer required. This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Gaza, I have no doubt that BA have far too many staff overall. The company's financial situation is still laughable, (owing 3 times it's value in debt etc.) cost are still too high, yields too low etc etc.

My problem with how the F/E's are being treated is one of respect, whilst an offer to change to CC may be legal, it is in reality a slap in the face.
Are we all so down-trodden in this industry that we feel that this is acceptable behaviour? I sincerely hope not, but having read the replies so far......

In answer as to what I feel BA should offer these chaps. Simple, offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot). What sort of message does this send out to all BA troops if the most highly thought of group of empolyees are being treated shabbily, what hope does everyone else have?

Finally, just because this is the "real world" doesn't excuse companies/people from treating other folk correctly. It is always the cry of the terminally unimaginative "get real" means nobody can be bothered to find a proper solution to any issues.

[parcel]

Gaza

I'm afraid we are dealing with simple greed here. Get what you can and to hell with a Company struggling to become profitable after two years of 9/11,SARS, etc. Wild cat strike of check-in staff because swiping would spoil their chances to be paid when not there.
F/Es have known for a while that they are a dying breed. Soon to be redundant. Normal rules apply, chaps!

[under_exposed]

Say again s l o w l y
offer them a series of respectful options, pensions, career changes within the business (not necessarily to pilot)
As the only vacancies available are for cabin crew or customer service agents BA cannot provide other options.

[cwatters]

For info, the BBC finance program "Working Lunch" is going to do a special prog about Conc.

Today they asked for people to email in their memories and experiences of Conc.

Send mail to: [email protected]

[TwoTon]

I'm afraid that the Flight Engineers don't really have a leg to stand on in this dispute. They are a dying breed, and they should have accepted the inevitable years ago.

IMHO, of course.

[Evanelpus]

Oh Twoton,

Why invent yourself now with opinions that clearly are opposite to the original Twotun?

Seems a bit childish to me.

[Nearly Nigel]

I nearly got TwoTun mixed up with TwoTon.

I believe the FEs just want to be treated fairly and hope that BA will do that. They have always given more than the basic severance in the past and although times are hard, they should do so again on this occasion. It is after all a very small group and the issue will not recur with this group of employees.

As for management pilots 'extracting' the glorious last few trips... Well that just stinks to high heaven.

:mad: :yuk:

[Paterbrat]

The job is aviation, part of the territory has been redundancy, layoffs, furloughs, liquidation. The counter staff were wrong to go on strike as they did, as this will be if the F/E's do. The company is doing it's best to survive and has made a business decision. It would be criticised if it did not. A lot of decisions are unpalatable and do affect peoples lives, but I do not believe that a strike is going to alter the decision taken and can only make things worse for the company and those still in it. The F/E's have in all likelehood had long remunerative carreers with BA, and knew it was coming to an end. The indications were that it would have lasted a bit longer, it didn't. Thats life.

[exeng]

'Tis human nature it seems to believe that everybody elses strike is wrong and unjustified but our own personal grievances must be put right and any action can be taken to rectify the situation. (In much the same way it is human nature to believe that anybody who earns considerably more than oneself must be overpaid.)

I suspect you make these claims in regard to the F/E's and the 'counter staff' with little real knowledge of the issues involved.

You are quite correct in saying that a business decision has been made. Just a shame that decision did not take into account promises made and give due regard to the loyalty shown by these long serving employees.

If you found yourself in the same position would you really just hang up your hat and toddle off quietly?

As for the person posing as Two Tun, what a pathetic attempt.


Regards
Exeng

[Anthony Carn]

Gaza

This is the real world. Jobs go. People are made redundant.
You are spot on, I totally agree.

But you may as well type it in the Martian language, because I reckon thats the best guess I'll ever come up with as to which planet this lot are on.

I saw the entire cabin crew establishment at a medium sized base in my company made redundant in one slashing blow. The only alternative was to take a lesser job with another company formed by the previously mentioned slashing company.

Did'nt see that on PPRuNe causing a fuss, did we ?

That's because , like many outside of BA, they were accustomed to having their teeth kicked in every so often. That's the real world.

This spoilt lot make me angry. :mad:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Why should anyone get used to "having their teeth kicked in" Anthony? Just because you work for a company that values its staff doesn't make you spoiled.
In all industries there are tales of these magical, friendly organisations that pay properly and have great terms, conditions and life styles, unfortunately in the aviation world these are few and far between. It doesn't mean that we should allow our selves to be treated like s**t.

Your example AC shows what a divided bunch we all are and that organisations like BALPA have been almost worse than useless in the many areas of industrial strife. Why didn't we hear about it? Why did you not post it yourself when you saw it happening?

This thread however, is not about whether certain jobs exist or not, but about how people with mortgages to pay and families to bring up have been subjected to a mangement style with all the sensitivity of Genghis Khan with a hangover. Businessess SHOULD be about more than just profits, providing a safe and secure working environment often will bring rewards back to the business as well as the employee.
Just look at how Lockheed (I think) ran their factories during ww2. Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.

[TwoTun]

Just for the record, I don't know who TwoTon is, but he isn't me. Apparently.
:confused:

[Paterbrat]

Exeng I have had a small internal airline an international carrier and an exec flight department go t*ts up while I was working for them and there was no option but to toddle off quietly. I suspect that the majority of flight crews have had similar experiences. I found that out about aviation as I went along and I would be very surprised if the F/E's on Concorde didn't consider it a disdinct possibility. No, I do not know what was promised, nor what was stipulated in their contract, but I would wager that they have been offered their full contractual entitlement, that they have probably had long and fruitful carreers, and have earned every penny of their salary. I suggest that they were paid what they were worth, and now sadly, their jobs have come to an end.
I have never believed that simply because someone was paid more than me they were overpaid, and 'fair' is a very overused concept.

[donder10]

Good pay, creches, housing and more. Yet they were THE most profitable aviation company of the era with a workforce that had virtually no turnover and even now are gushing in their praise of the boss-man.

Perhaps so but BA are competing in an era of cut-throat competition and companies who are leaner because they have grown organically.
Nevertheless,BA is asking for trouble if it goes back on promises made previously.

[GK]

I believe the F/E deserves a lot more respect than some of your guys are alluding to. Anyone who has been employed with one company for over 25 years deserves a pad on the back. The F/Es could have left BA couple of years of ago and gone somewhere else. Should BA award employees that are loyal to the company? Afterall, the cost of type training the F/Es are just as expensive as training the pilots.

As to working as CC, it is a completely different job as F/E. Most F/Es and pilots don't have the personality to become good CCs. It requires a complete skill set.

I support the F/Es for their plea.

[Lloydm]

GK

The world has moved on.

As I have said in my earlier post, this is the age of ME PLC.

It is not a question really of what is good bad etc

The party is over and that is it.

A young friend of mine is building hours and often asks me for advice.

Here it is:

We are all responsible for our own skills portfolio and that once you get in the seat anything can happen out of it

Fail a medical, car accident,.........ad infinitum


Then what are you going to do? all that effort and suddenly you are unemployable. The plumber in 27C that you saw coming onboard and sneered at last week is now far more valuable than you. (this is allegorical)

As I learned working in the North Sea you are only as good as your last paycheck and that aviation is a fickle mistress.
One minute your being dragged into bed.the next your standing on the doorstep with no clothes and nowhere to go

Two Tun good luck

[NW1]

When an employer in UK aviation which has a reputation for providing better than the average T&Cs turns round and bites an employee group and there is an understandable adverse reaction, it is always baffling that far from support from fellow aviation professionals a common reaction is "you're not getting as stuffed as some so just assume the position and take what's coming to you". Would you lot not be happy until everyone in our industry is treated like 18th century navvies? Why?

Why is it that some people think that we should all strive for the lowest common denominator? Why is it that some people think that a company cannot be profitable and look after its people too? Why is there often thinly veiled satisfaction at seeing another group being kicked, just because your own group might have been kicked before and harder too?

If you cannot extracate yourselves from this pathetic playground attitude then you will be partly responsible for a downward spiral in the rewards of engaging in this career - we should all try to support those who get the sh1tty end of the stick, and we should all see that some will be treated better than others and that we should support that to raise the bar for everyone else too.

[HOVIS]

NW1, Very well put.:ok:

Paterbrat, do you work for BA at the moment? If So, given your track record, I am selling my shares and applying for early retirement on Monday.:\ :D

[Paterbrat]

NW and Hovis while I applaud the sentiment that the bar is to go ever higher and everybody gets more, the real world alas, doesn't work quite that way. It must have escaped your attention that the aviation scene has been hit hard in addition to intense competition from the low cost carriers. Where pray will the money come from when everybody is continualy raising this benefit and pay package? Yes it is possible to be profitable and to give a good package but BA is no longer getting government handouts and has to earn the money ie become/remain competative. The laws of supply and demand surely have to figure in your bar building somewhere. The fact that the majority of staff remain for long periods of time indicate amongst other things that the conditions were good and probably still are.

Hovis with your attitude it would probably be a good thing if you did. Besides if you have been fortunate enough to have escaped so far without ever being laid off ever, quit while your ahead:ok:

[Egg Mayo]

The question seems to be, is it their fault or BA's that they are 'stuck in a corner' with no-where to go?

Should they have had they're eyes open and jumped ship while the going was good, (i.e. pre paris crash, 9/11 etc) retrained, grabbed those transferable skills in whatever, taken the short term hit in terms of pay and conditions for the long term prospect on continued employment, albeit in another job, industry, etc?

No of course not, because they couldn't predict the future, just like everyone else. To my knowledge, BA always made very public statements in the 1990's to keep Concorde flying until 2010 etc, so it would have been a fair and reasonable assumption that there was some long term continuality.

[donder10]

Although,the decision was out of BA's hands.

[411A]

So, lets get this straight.
Concorde Flight Engineers are miffed because the 'ole bird is being parked and they are out of a job.

Would presume all of these guys are senior with the company, earning near the max for the position.

Yet, have not actually noticed here exactly what they are to receive (might have missed it tho with the six pages) so what is it?

What do they expect? A permanent seat in the executive boardroom?

End of aeroplane...end of job, period.

Oh....boohoo:{ :{

PS: Can just see one of these guys being bossed around by one of BA's limp-wristed finest in the cabin.:ok: :p

[rho_tait]

I think this thread is a wind up.

I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.

A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.

By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.

Once again, its a wind up folks!

[TwoTun]

rho_tait, you said:

I think this thread is a wind up.

I am a BALPA member, nothing along these lines has appeared in the mail or the BALPA forum.

A postal ballot would be required, which I think requires 28 days, and then strikes and other sanctions must be timed within 28 days of any postal ballot of members, with seven days' notice being given to the employer.

By this time the lovely white bird will be retired.

Once again, its a wind up folks!


I really do wish it was a wind-up.

Firstly, you will see nothing in the BALPA forum, because the 18 Concorde Flight engineers are totally fed up with BALPA. Rob Hall allowed BA to word the last pay agreement for Flight Engineers in such a manner as it allowed BA to throw half the F/E's off the fleet just before March's pay deal came through.

Secondly, the over-whelming opinion amongst the F/Es is that Rob Hall strung us along for months, telling us to leave it to him and BALPA to sort out our retirement / redeployment, only to turn round a few weeks ago and ****** off to management whilst telling us, incidently, that we didn't have a leg to stand on.

So, this issue won't be gracing the pages of any BALPA Log or Forum.

Lastly, we have a Standing Conference with BA this coming Wednesday, after which the 18 of us (not the pilots - it's not their issue) will call for a ballot. Within a week, we will be balloted. If we collectively decide that we don't need 28 days to ballot 18 members, then we don't need 28 days.

Lastly, if any strike action is called, it will only involve the Flight Engineers. And that's all you need to stop Concorde flying.

regards

[ojs]

TwoTun, can you tell us the details of what you were promised and what you're being offered instead?

[TwoTun]

ojs, you said:
TwoTun, can you tell us the details of what you were promised and what you're being offered instead?


I'd rather not go into specifics on an open forum, especially as nothing has been resolved as yet.

However, it is fair to say that what we want is the same that was offered to the 747 Classic Flight Engineers in BA a couple of years ago, which we were not allowed to take because we were needed for Concorde until (as was thought at the time) at least 2007.

regards

[HOVIS]

Twotun, good luck.
When the MAN Engineers were told to go they were promised the same deal as the classic FEs.
That was on 05/11/01.
One week later the world changed and all bets were off.
If you do get the deal please let us know because about 120 or so ex BA engineers will be very, very interested!!:mad:

Paterbrat It's been a long time since BA received any government handouts. Don't you think you should drop that hackneyed old line? As for attitude, with a record like yours I should be very careful about throwing stones in glass houses. :p

[YouNeverStopLearning]

Listen to yourselves, all of you that are criticizing the engineers.

You are playing into the managements hands; have you all forgotten that united we stand? BA management must be laughing their heads off when they see the divisions and infighting that is clearly displayed on this and many other similar threads.

I am ashamed of you all, so little unity. Selfish, self-centered, blinkered, thoughtless and SO SPOILT that you have forgotten all the hard work done over the last hundred years to bring rights, recognition and decency to the working classes.

Now it’s the Concorde engineers getting shafted, tomorrow it could be you – look past the end of your noses.

But of course, I forgot, YOUR ALL RIGHT JACK!

[bean_counter]

"BA management must be laughing their heads off"

Actually my guess would be they're S******g themselves.
This is the last thing they need now, Summer's gone and the results weren't good according to the press reports, it's going to be a long hard winter and 2 strikes in one year would be a total disaster.

Sell those shares now, you can buy them back 50p cheaper later, .......if they're still in business of course.

[YouNeverStopLearning]

You are confusing a BA engineers strike with what this thread is about: 18 Concorde flight engineers. If 18 Concorde flight engineers go on strike no one will notice; what I wouldn't give for a mass BA engineers strike over this.

Its the disunity in here that the BA managers are laughing about.

[exeng]

<<If 18 Concorde flight engineers go on strike no one will notice>>

Oh I do think people would notice. Given the extensive media coverage concerning the announcement of its early retirement, I would imagine the grounding of its last flights would attract considerable attention.

Lets hope a reasonable agreement is reached.


Regards
Exeng

[rho_tait]

Two Tun, come, you have raised the topic on an open forum, not in the closed BA part, why do you say "I'd rather not go into specifics on an open forum, especially as nothing has been resolved as yet".

What specifically is it that the Classic F/E's were offered (back when circumstances were different)?

So, you have your meeting on Wednesday, if you feel you wish to finish your careers with a strike ballot, you then have to hold an independently scrutinised secret ballot, and provide a minimum of 7 days notice to your employer of any proposed action...............what a way to end a career.

How many management F/E's are there on the fleet now?

[exeng]

Two Tun did not raise this topic but added to it after Pic744 started it.

Presumably Two Tun is of the opinion that to post personal facts that directly relate to other individuals would not be appropriate. I respect that and I'm sure you do also.


Regards
Exeng

[TwoTun]

rho_tait, you said:

Two Tun, come, you have raised the topic on an open forum, not in the closed BA part, why do you say "I'd rather not go into specifics on an open forum, especially as nothing has been resolved as yet".


erm....no I didn't. I replied to a post someone has put on the forum.


What specifically is it that the Classic F/E's were offered (back when circumstances were different)?


Again, not on an open forum. In point of fact, the specifics are only really relevant to the 18 Flight Engineers and BA.


So, you have your meeting on Wednesday, if you feel you wish to finish your careers with a strike ballot, you then have to hold an independently scrutinised secret ballot, and provide a minimum of 7 days notice to your employer of any proposed action...............what a way to end a career.


Yes, of course you are correct. Hang on, I'll just loosen my trousers and bend over.



How many management F/E's are there on the fleet now?


One. Who will be doing a lot of flying in October.

[Gaza]

TwoTun - I respect your right to keep the offer made by BA private but reading between the lines I suspect you and your colleagues are being offered more than the legal minimum. True?

You say :-
it is fair to say that what we want is the same that was offered to the 747 Classic Flight Engineers in BA a couple of years ago, which we were not allowed to take because we were needed for Concorde until (as was thought at the time) at least 2007.

I don't see how BA are under any obligation to give you the same deal made to a different fleet two years ago. You weren't able to take the deal two years ago because your fleet was still flying.

Companies make different deals depending on circumstances. When I was made redundant my package was less lucrative than those made redundant 6 months earlier. By the same token those made redundant recently received a lesser package than I did. Should I have got the same package as those made redundant 6 months earlier? Should those made redundant recently have received the same as me or the same as those made redundant before me? In an ideal world we would get huge pay-offs or pension top-ups and be able to retire to our villa in Spain. However, this is a business world, not an ideal world.

I would suggest you and your colleagues think very carefully about your position. If you do go on strike and spoil Concordes swansong, don't be surprised if BA pull the offer on the table and give you the legal minimum. If they did this there is little, if anything, you can do about it. Any support from your colleagues could only be moral, as any industrial action on their part would be considered secondary action and therefore illegal.

By all means keep negociating. But in the words of the song "Know when to hold them. Know when to fold them." :ok:

[Orvil]

My advice to the FE is get as much as possible, play hard ball and don't except anything less.
My father was made redundant in 1987, he worked for ThornEMI as an electronics engineer (nothing to do with aviation), he was 55 at the time.
He is now struggling because their union accepted the first offer, about 10 grand and a pension. Not bad considering when it was.
He paid off the morgage with that and had a hoiliday with mum. Not much after that, as you can guess. He as a pension of 5 grand a year.
My father as never really worked since then, no permanent work, permanent recession( we're Northerners).

If for example that the FE are getting 50 grand, average age I would suspect is about 50ish (no offence!). You are more or less in the same position as my Dad. There is no guarentee that you'll get a well paid job again. Pensions, I would suspect are pretty good but as what happened to my Dad this year, they decided not to give them their bonus (2000quid).
You also have to factor in Inflation. It's pretty low at the moment but please remember that in the early 1990's it was 11% (actual 15-16% government smudged the figures after black wednesday!).
So that really is what you've got to live on for the next 20,30,40 years, who knows?

Sorry, this was a long one!!
In a nut shell...
Those in this position should screw as much money as possible out of BA;) .
Those not in this position and don't agree with this have right to their opinion but I would guess would do exactly as the above.

Nobody can predict the future, it's not being greedy but providing security in an umpredictable world (Do you think I should sell pensions? ).

Goodluck:ok: :D

[Hot Wings]

Any news on today's meeting?

[TwoTun]

No news on the meeting as of 1500 hours. However, blessed as I am with extra-sensory abilities, and being able to see in the future, this is what I predict.

BA will refuse to budge.

The BACC (Company Council) will report back and tell us that there is nothing more they can do (the sceptical amongst us would retort with the fact that they couldn't have done any less).

We will tell the BACC that we want a Strike Ballot.

They will say OK - how about in a month's time?

We will end up being less than happy as we all ride off into the sunset, clutching P45's and 30 year old CVs.

:{

BA will get the media coverage it wants, not the media coverage it deserves.

See if I'm right.

[411A]

Hmm, all very interesting.

TwoTun raises the subject about alledged poor treatment, then goes on to say later that he cannot reveal what that 'poor treatment' is...or indeed what was offered.

Absolute nonsense.

No wonder companies have a hard line with these folks.
Suggest that this TwoTun grow up...and stop acting like a child:{ :{ :{

[Egg Mayo]

What if the F/E's decided to simply 'down tools'? I'm aware it probably illegal but what would be the consequences?

[TwoTun]

411A;

you KNOW your parents won't like it if you are on the computer after bedtime. Any more of this and you'll grow up to be an obnoxious self-opinionated aviation-wanabee tw*t with no concept of what's right or wrong and who enjoys the intellect of a slug and a personality to match.

Oh .... I see you're there already.

[overstress]

TwoTun:

From the number of his postings, he never gets OFF the computer

I'm off to find the ignore function


Good luck, by the way

[411A]

TwoTun,

Sorry old boy, but with your attitude, can readily see just why BA management would want to dump you lot ASAP.

So, go have your so-called ballot...and go on out...see who cares.

Suspect you will not be missed....:p

[Paterbrat]

Oh dear... Hovis... the art of a duel is to aim at the opponent, not shoot yourself in the foot. A very pertinant axiom about glass dwellings, it has however escaped your attention that I am not the one presently inside one and threatening to chuck bricks!
A hackneyed old line it may be, but that however does not detract from the basic truth of what was stated.

Interesting that issue seems to be about precedence, trouble is that what has been offered to others in the past in better times may not always be possible, and sometimes the bar comes lower despite our wish for it to only go up, and that is life.

[Gaza]

What if the F/E's decided to simply 'down tools'? I'm aware it probably illegal but what would be the consequences?

They would be deemed to have walked off the job and be liable to Instant Dismissal. No pension enhancements. No redundancy pay.

[loaded1]

Hey 411a, News Update - this just in:

With your attitude your quite likely to be taken behind a bike shed and filled-in, like as not by your own unloving staff.

Aha, what's that? You haven't got any: the "airline" still just a figment of your overheated imagination, I note.

Well, well, you sad little fantasist, just go back to the pill cupboard and keep downing the prozac and leave the "professional pilots rumour network" to professional pilots, or at the very least, someone with an intelligent comment to make.

[JW411]

As I said recently on another thread, the best way to engage 411A is with well thought-out, informed and logical argument.

It works every time.

[411A]

JW411,

Suspect that loaded1's comments were the best he could come up with at the time...or maybe the best, period.

Sadly for these Concorde guys, the end is near, and not much they can do about it, huffing and puffing notwithstanding.
They simply should have seen the writing on the wall and retired with better conditions earlier.
Now they may find that they are un-employable elsewhere (B747 freighters, for example), due in no small part to untimely actions now...ie: troublemakers.
In short, who would want them?

[Egg Mayo]

Gaza - Thanks for the reply. The little grey cells weren't working too hard the other evening!

[loaded1]

Well thought- out logical argument? The day we see that from 411a is the day the sun stops shining.

How's the airline coming along by the way, 411a? Still nothing? Thought not. Still, you keep bashing away here in cyberspace where you cant do too much harm eh, and leave the real world to the rest of us.

[HOVIS]

Er... Paterbrat? My comments were in response to your own admission,
"... I have had a small internal airline an international carrier and an exec flight department go t*ts up while I was working for them...."

Can't think why but maybe there is a pattern here. :hmm: :D

Back to the thread.

The FEs have a ligit claim because BA has internal agreements that they disregard if they can get away with it. It happened at MAN, BHX, BFS, LGW and now at LHR.
The reason many staff feel or at least felt comfortable at BA is because they new that even though the bottom line salary was/is below market rate, they were protected in the event of disaster. The company are now tearing up agreements and yes many are leaving for better wages elsewhere. But many such as the FEs are trapped with no where to go. How many engineers do you know that could hold down the job of steward? I couldn't, the first bit of lip off a pax and I would be in court the next day!

Good luck to all, by my experience you will need it! :mad:

[HotDog]

Couldn't agree with you more Hovis. I consider myself very lucky to have been able to fly till I reached 65. Four years since retirement but I still miss the machine, the guys, girls and the lifestyle. However, we are not the first to meet this experience. Think of the R/Os, Navigators and Loadmasters. Eventually, pilots will be next.

[under_exposed]

The reason many staff feel or at least felt comfortable at BA is because they new that even though the bottom line salary was/is below market rate, they were protected in the event of disaster.
How can the FE's have been paid below market rate if there is no market for them?

[HotDog]

411A, I almost gave you the benefit of the doubt on account of your favourable comments about flight engineers that you obviously experienced in your flying career, in many of your previous posts. This 180 degree about turn on this forum now reinforces my initial convictions about your personality. You Sir are a prize w@nker!:(

[HOVIS]

My comment was aimed at BA staff in general and not just FEs. Although there is a market for FEs just not supersonic ones.

[Synthetic]

How can the FE's have been paid below market rate if there is no market for them?

Ouch!! Hit a man while he is down why don't you!!

[Paterbrat]

'Legit' claim Hovis? something down on paper no doubt? Tearing up agreements? or is this mataphoricaly speaking. While your propensity for speaking your mind bears out your unsuitablity for any work requiring a modicum of civility, by your own admission, regretfully it does not in any way support your claims that the engineers have recieved anything less than was contracted. If people are leaving for other companies and better wages then that is market forces. If the market no longer requires supersonic FE's that again is market forces. To inflict damage upon a company because one feels that one is not being sent off with a big enough thank you has a whiff of spite and petulance. If the company has deliberately breached contractual agreements that is quite another matter, so far it seems not been shown that this is so.
Having served long and faithfully it probably is not pleasant to have the jobs come to an end before it was anticipated, and may well leave some in less than desirable financial circumstances, not to recieve a financial pat on the back dissapointing, but not a good reason to inflict deliberate damage.

But then Hovis where you are coming from is clear to see because you have already described your character for us here, for all to see, in your own words it was headed for court .:yuk:

[411A]

Hmm, suggest TwoTun learn to say....'coffee or tea', with feeling.;)

[TwoTun]

411A borrowed a computer and wrote:


Hmm, suggest TwoTun learn to say....'coffee or tea', with feeling


Hmm, suggest 411A learn to say .....'please take your boot out of my mouth' whilst having a boot in his mouth.

:cool:

[Paterbrat]

Ahhh... the jovial banter of an evening as we sip our Horlics before we retire.:)

[under_exposed]

Synthetic, sorry that was rather insensitive. I do hope things work out well for the FE's, I just think striking is the wrong way to go about it. I can see the headlines now, Concorde retired early due to industrial action.

[cumulo-granite]

Has this matter now come to a conclusion - satisfactory or otherwise - for the FEs concerned?:confused:

[TwoTun]

cumulo-granite put pen to paper and wrote:


Has this matter now come to a conclusion - satisfactory or otherwise - for the FEs concerned


Yes, it has reached it's conclusion. It wasn't as much as we had hoped for (or had been achieved by our 747 Classic colleagues), but, given the nature of the industry, and the particular situation at BA, it was probably as much as we could realistically have achieved.

The truely annoying part about the whole episode is that we are at the situation that we though we were 6 months ago before British Airways managers started f**king around with us in the last few months of our employment.

This episode reminds me of a little article that was sent to me a while ago:


A balloonist in a hot air balloon realised he was lost. He reduced altitude and spotted a man below. He descended a bit more and shouted:
"Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a colleague I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am".

The man replied: "You are in a hot air balloon hovering approximately 60 feet above the ground. You are between 40 and 41 degrees north latitude and 59 and 60 degrees west longitude".

"You must be a Flight Engineer," shouted the balloonist.
"I am," replied the man, "how did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist," everything you told me was technically correct, but I have no idea what to make of your information, and the fact is I am still lost. Frankly you've been no help at all. If anything, you have delayed my trip!"

The Flight Engineer below responded, 'Aahh.. you must be a BA Pilot Manager."

I am replied the balloonist, "but how did you know?"

"Well," said the Flight Engineer," you don't know where you are, what to do about it or where you are going. You have risen to where you are only due to a large quantity of hot air. You've made a promise, which you've no idea how to keep, and you expect people below you to solve your problems. The fact is you are in exactly the same position you were before we met, but now, somehow it's my fault!"



Good, innit?

[Da Dog]

Two Tun

Unfortunatly the "cheeseboard" that helped pay for the Classic eng. retirement is now not available.......................... Its been given away............. perminently. :sad: :sad: ........ now is that spelt with an a or an e

PS

Would look forward to seeing your boot in 411a mouth:D

[P24BA]

TwoTun

You said:-

news on the meeting as of 1500 hours. However, blessed as I am with extra-sensory abilities, and being able to see in the future, this is what I predict.

BA will refuse to budge.

The BACC (Company Council) will report back and tell us that there is nothing more they can do (the sceptical amongst us would retort with the fact that they couldn't have done any less).

We will tell the BACC that we want a Strike Ballot.

They will say OK - how about in a month's time?

We will end up being less than happy as we all ride off into the sunset, clutching P45's and 30 year old CVs.



BA will get the media coverage it wants, not the media coverage it deserves.

See if I'm right.

I think I'll stop listening ToTun