students useing GPS

[bush mechanics]

Just wondering how many people think that students should be useing GPS when doing navs.I think maybe they shouldnt be able to use them until they have a PPL.That way they have had some chance in developing map reading skillsWhich you still need when it all turns too crap.

[sancho]

Agree absolutely. Learn the basics of DR and the rules of thumb for drift correction and eta calculation and diversions too. Then later after PPL use GPS to enhance situational awareness without compromising basic skills. You can still use them to check the GPS and be confident of its use.

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

I think students shood first lern how to uze the inglish language befor using the GPS.
:ok:

[Crashlanded]

I for one flies around without a GPS.call me a vintage or conservative pilot or shall i say frankly i cant afford one :)

Ive seen some frens of mine flying using GPS for their navs pre PPL which I believe is totally absurd & too much of technology reliance.

What if one day their GPS knocks out on them? n since theyve been doing nav pre PPL till god knows whenever/wherever they may go n land up to; I don't think they'd be able to navigate visually without any help or cause any inconvenience to others or ATC.

in my opinion,which i maybe wrong;These are pilots who will never learn the basics of & mastering basic navigation.

No harm carrying a GPS i guess but be sure to learn the basic fundamentals of nav at the early stages.If one is post PPL & other higher lvl of licences then its a luxury to use them since
these experience pilots already have the backups of basic handson nav in case the techno gadgets kills itself.

*one of my fren got lost once in the outback after too much reliance on the GPS n unfortunately the GPS kills itself on one of his "perfect" flight.He was totally frightened to his wits knowing that he gotta b back to basics which he admits at that point of time he's so hopeless of it.

[compressor stall]

Yep, turn it off.

I wonder though if one day in the unfortunate event of a hapless student getting lost on a solo nav and forced landing somewhere if the insurance would pay if the instructor had forbidden the student to take a GPS with him/her..... :}

Might be a consideration for the companies to write it in their ops manuals etc.

CS

[R555C]

incorporate GPS into the lesson, and let the instructor use it to see how accurate the student is with traditional navigation techniques. It will help the student see improvments first hand, but always encourage the use of a GPS as a backup too only(VFR). Its amazing to see that the majoritoty of PPLs that have a VCA always try to get out of it saying that they had a GPS and could accuratly navigate to within meters of CTA, and they do it all the time. The safe and legal use of GPS needs to be stipulated at the early stages of training

[solowflyer]

HAVE ONLY JUST STARED USING GPS. A FEW MONTHS AGO WAS DOING A VERY LONG X COUNTRY USING THE GPS TO LOCATIONS I HAD NEVER BEEN BEFORE. FOUND IT TO AN AWSOME TOOL THAT WAS UNTILL IT SHAT ITSELF HALF WAY THROUGH THE LEG. LUCKLY I HAD PLANED AND WAS FOLLOWING THE FLIGHT THE OLD FASSIONED WAY AS WELL. SAVED MYSELF AN EMBARASSING RADIO CALL FOR HELP.

ALL STUDENTS, EAVEN UP TO CPL SHOULD STRICTLY USE THE OLD FASSION WAY.

[Bodie]

SOLOWFLYER THANKS FOR YOUR ADVICE. NOT QUITE SURE WHY YOU NEED TO SHOUT THOUGH.

[Bunglerat]

As for shunning the use of GPS during basic nav training (in order to develop map-reading and DR skills), I totally agree.

But when moving beyond PPL, and certainly for those who are hitting CPL training, they should be comfortable making use of all the available resources onboard their aircraft. In fact I would say it is encumbent on them to do so, if they want to call themselves professional pilots. Unfortunately there is this persisting "old school" mentality amongst instructors that the student should have his hand slapped if it goes anywhere near that GPS. I find this way of thinking to be totally out of step with modern aviation, because the technology is firmly in place and it's not going away anytime soon. Yes, there are equipment and user limitations to be aware of, and the instructor should ensure that the student uses the technology in moderation (so as not to become too dependent on it) - but what message does it convey when we have a large number of "professional" pilots out there who don't know how to use the equipment themselves? I fly not only with students, but fellow work colleagues who don't know how to use the NAV mode on their autopilot, or that a HSI is always in the command sense, and heaven forbid we should actually turn the GPS on! In short, the current (and upcoming) generation of instructors are perpetuating this technological ignorance because no-one ever fully explained it to them, so they think their own students should be kept in the dark also.

I recently taught a GPS course to some aviation diploma students, and made the remark that by the end of training they were probably more familiar with how to operate a GPS than 90 per cent of the Instructors responsible for the delivery of their training. Of course, this is not to take away in the slightest from the importance of continuing to promote the art of stick-&-rudder and DR - but it would make for a worthwhile and long-overdue change to see some more instructors out there stop being so anal about modern technology in the cockpit.

[bush mechanics]

Hope im not as old as i sound but when I learnt to fly GPSs were just being talked about.Everyone couldnt wait.I have been lost ,very lost,I in the end remembered some words from a great mate,He said If you ever get lost land as soon as possible,shut down,get out and have a walk around,then start the flight again.chuck the old wac on the tail and get out the ruler and work something out without having too worry about where you are and wasting fuel as you do soo.This worked for me.Its amazing how much clearer you think when u get some pressure off your self.I was made too fly without captain Garmin when getting checked out on mail runs,didnt have a problem with that,But now im checking guys out and I say go for it use the Gps but also have your head outside and seeying what is actually on track soo if you one day have flat baterys you know that dam with a airstrip is dead on track!!

[Continental-520]

Yep, for sure.

My instructors encouraged me to have the GPS on, as it's another pilot aid there in case I need it, etc. I always found a better sense of achievement by not using it though and actually seeing my destination on top of the nose cowling 25 mins out.

That said, none of the aircraft I fly with the company I'm with now have GPS in them anyway, so there's little choice.

520.

[bigfella5]

Only ever used a GPS once when a mate decided to bring one on a reasonably long trip (in over ten years of flying). Nice to have but I'd hazard the suggestion that by the time an individual has a PPL they should have no probs getting from A to B with DR techniques.
Remember....anything with batteries is bound to stop eventually.................Oh dear....I couldn't resist could I?.......nurse!!!!!?????!
:ooh: :ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

[disco_air]

If GPS is there to use then use it because it's just another tool for navigation, but sole reliance not only encourages laziness but is just asking for trouble. GPS is subject to interference, incorrect entry and misinterpretation just as other navaids. I have been taught that all information should always be cross-checked vigilantly.

At our school we are reminded of the clown that set a direct GPS track from Archerfield to Cairns and flew it, incurring numerous airspace violations needless to say!

I agree students should learn all traditional nav techniques and if GPS is there to be used, then it should be taught too. If we are taught to be sceptical of the GPS just as we are radionavaids then there shouldnt be a problem.

[BCF Breath]

You gotta walk before you can run. Basics first, then once mastered, progress to tech.
I've seen one bloke come unstuck due to bad inputs into a GPS and not wanting to believe it could be wrong.
GIGO. Garbage in garbage out!

[Ang737]

I say get used to using a GPS particularly for IFR ops

One day I see all NDBs being decommissioned and GPS NPA being the norm. Take a look at the NAS reform being introduced and oz GA becoming more and more like US GA procedures. I think you will struggle to find a NDB/ADF approach at many UA airports, its either VOR or GPS NPA....

What are everyones thoughts on the use of GPS NPA replacing NDB approaches...??

Ang ;)

[Wheeler]

Amy Johnson managed to come from UK with just a School Atlas and a compass. So why did they ever bother to invent GPS? Chuck all of your expensive ASA charts away and get a good Atlas. Gregory's is fine for flying around Sydney.

Seriously though - some need to come into the 21st Century. The challenge is teaching PROPER use of GPS and in particular, understanding its limitations. Any student who is using it as sole means on a Nav test is not likely to get very far - because the GPS will definitely fail! It is also true that a few aerodromes have already switched off their NDB's relying on GPS NPA instead. That is the way of the future - especially when WAAS gets going.

The danger is the nice new licence that gets a flash hand held, battery powered, sticker ariel Garmin for Christmas - and then ventures off into the outback without so much as a briefing on its power, traps and limitations.

[BCF Breath]

ANG737
Bring it on. Sick of needles chasing thunderstorms, &/ or coastal / night effect.

[Wheeler]

Yeah I agree - lets get it going asap - beats all of the needle chasing for sure!

But wrt to on-route and NPA, there is a catch. The cost of the average database, updated monthly is about $1200 per year. This will inevitably increase the cost beyond what it was with NDB's, VOR's and DME's - and guess who that gets passed on to.

Now that we can use GPS instead of DME, even on ILS/DME, I hope we are all checking our databases. You know how mean some of these owners can be skimping on updates!

[Chucky_1]

My understanding is that if a student is heading for a licence test, PPL, CPL he/she will need to demonstrate an understanding of instruments at there desposal, i.e navigation instruments installed in the aircraft not hand held GPS, if GPS is one of those instruments so be it, to assist in there navigation. :E

Its up to the instructor or examiner to make sure that the student is not using only one form of instrumentation, i.e GPS, ADF, VOR or just plain old DR for navigation but a complement of techniques to assist them.
So there is nothing wrong with GPS :ok: unless the student becomes to depandant on it then you just turn it off so they start using other techniques. :O

chucky ;)

[Jamair]

It's just another tool, like a compass, VOR, ADF, Autopilot. Anyone flying a specific aircraft should be thoroughly familiar with and competent in the use of all the bits in it - including all the above. Instructor-induced failures of any / all of these aids is a useful training technique.

Many of the GPA NPAs in USA are actually overlays of previous or existing NDB & VOR Navaid NPAs. There are not that many of the dedicated GPS waypoint-type approaches such as we have designed here. NDBs are programed for phase-out in 2006 (again).

[bush mechanics]

Had a intresting chat with WW2 flying boat pilot the other day.Amongst the storys was the ferry flight he and two others did in 3 motorised gliders in the early seventys,Compass and ADF.all the way from Poland to Australia.No thats flying!!!!

[maxgrad]

Initial nav training is I believe what the initial post was about.
A great many pilots who were allowed to use GPS in their initial training would probably :mad: themselves if it fell over in flight.
DR nav should be the primary learning followed by nav instruments (old clock style ) and then GPS.
Obviously if a GPS is fitted it should be used in flight but only after the pilot has shown profitiancy in standard nav.

[bush mechanics]

Hey Maximus!!!What you bin doin white boy!!Give SID a kiss for me:O

[atombomb96]

I can testify to both the use of, and use without! :E

When I learnt to fly, starting in 1998, I was dead against GPS, wanting to stay 'traditional'. Our school drilled it into us, too.

And then came the day that I drifted to the edge of some airspace in the upper winds, off track...

Realising where I was "roughly", and the proximity to a 'large' airport with jets in the distance, I took the executive decision to to in a large field and get my bearings.

Pulling up my steed in the rough stubble field, I hopped over the fence and knocked on the door of a cottage. A elderly couple came to the door and I sheepishly said... "Umm... Can you tell me the name of this village please ?"

Spreading the chart out on their nice oak effect table, I pointed out where I thought we were. They took one look at it and said "I can't understand that!" and whipped the draw open and got out the AA UK Road Atlas!! They then bickered and bitched about finding the right page for 5 minutes, whilst I ducked!

Once I'd established my position, I climbed back aboard, and against my insticts of where I *thought* I was, flew the heading I had planned on the chart until I recognised a familiar site. Sure enough, I got home, relieved!

I bought a GPS the next day. After 2 years flying with it, I came to 'rely' on it and got lazy reading the map. And then the day came when I was following the arrow (no moving map) to Scotland around the mountains.

The arrow points in the direction, but it doesn't mean you can't drift off track and still be pointing at the arrow!

Ever since then, I went back to map-reading and find it *much* more fulfilling. I got to Land's and back in a weekend without it turned on, and also the Shetland's. :ok:

I only ever use it to show groundspeed, to help me plan in-flight if the Met man got the winds wrong. :D

[cjam]

The a/c I trained in didn't have it, the one I am in now does and I use it to gauge how accurate it can be just holding a heading, ie. turn it on at the half way point and see what the cross track error is.

[Onthegear]

I saw a PPL holder fly a GPS arrival into Bathurst one day in a C182RG. It was a very nice machine so I went for a look after he had left. The good old Pronav 100 was the only GPS in there!!!

So much for a RAIM check!!

[bush mechanics]

May be I should have said Pre PPL.How many pilots have their charts out when old Pricilla is on the dash?
Pricilla,Queen of the Desert=Garnin 155

[DIVINE WIND]

GPS is here stay. I totally agree that the good old NAV techniques should be taught and mastered before sitting back and letting Mr Garmin or Apollo do the work, because unfortunatley people will get into that habit, but the new technology should be incorporated into lessons. Being able to use everything that is at your fingertips can save your ass.
The bottom line is that the student has to employ self-discipline if they really want to learn properly.

[Capt Hollywood]

My sentiments exactly DIVINE WIND.

I read an interesting article in a US magazine the other day stating that within 20 years GPS will be the primary form of navigation with radio nav aids relegated to a secondary position........I think it'll be a little earlier than 20 years.

Hollywood :cool:

[nzer]

This is topic which not only deserves attention in itself, but also opens up the wider field of how do we accept/integrate advancing technology into our "traditional" flight training "paradigms" and scenarios. My 2 pence worth is that it would be negligent as well as luddite to "ban" the use of GPS until some arbitrary stage (eg, post PPL), as it would be equally foolhardy to teach "stand alone" GPS Navigation. The trick is to get the blend right.....but basically I favour an introduction from day 1, as part of a "kitbag" of tools available to a pilot, which includes as well DR skills, map reading, etc, but also the basic procedures and safeguards to be observed when using self contained Nav systems.

[weasil]

In the USA you can teach GPS during private training but the checkride consists of navigation solely by reference to landmarks on the ground and DR. There is no provision for using the GPS during that portion of the flight test. However, recently we had a Commercial Pilot train with us for his Flight Instructor Rating and he was out on a solo flight when he got lost because he was in an airplane with no GPS for the first time. He had to land and call us to come get him!

[Tinstaafl]

Like the other navaids, I see the GPS as an additional skill to a more fundamental one of using the map, time & a compass. I believe it's essential that the fundamental skill be gained, after which additional skills that can include radio navaids, GPS etc can be taught.