Dr Kelly was murdered

[Colonel W E Kurtz]

Body 'matches' Iraq expert
18th July 2003
BBC Online

A body matching the description of Dr David Kelly - the weapons expert at the centre of the Iraq dossier row - has been found at a beauty spot close to his home in Oxfordshire.

The government says an independent judicial inquiry will be held into the circumstances of his death if the body is confirmed to be that of the MoD adviser. The discovery was made at 0920 BST by a member of the police team searching for Dr Kelly in a wooded area at Harrowdown Hill, near Faringdon.

Dr Kelly, 59, had been caught up in a row between the BBC and the government about the use of intelligence reports in the run-up to the war with Iraq. On Tuesday he told the Foreign Affairs select committee he had spoken to BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan but denied he was the main source for a story about claims that a dossier on Iraq had been "sexed up".

Dr Kelly left his home in Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxfordshire, at about 1500 BST on Thursday and his family reported him missing at 2345 BST the same day. The body was found lying on the ground, around five miles from Dr Kelly's home, a police spokeswoman said.

Acting superintendent Dave Purnell said formal identification would take place on Saturday and the case was being treated as an "unexplained death".

"We will be awaiting the results of the post mortem and also waiting while the forensic examination continues at the scene at Harrowdown Hill," he added. A hearse left the scene shortly before 2000 BST on Friday.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THINGS TO BEAR IN MIND

Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his entirement next year.
The last person to see him alive said he was smiling as he walked in the countryside near his home
The man who revealed that the government lied to win support for the war on Iraq is now dead
Dr Kelly was well known as a devoted family man, so why did he not leave a suicide note or explanation for the wife he has loved for so many years
His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide, and exactly what the public would expect in a TV soap drama suicide. However this is not consistent with the action of such a rational and educated man
Notice how Tony Blair was in Japan when the tragedy occured just as Parliament breaks up for summer. He couldn't distance himself any further if he tried physically and the summer recess/inquiry announcement would give him time think about the spin plan and hopefully time for the public interest to subside.
Treason is still a capital offence in Britain
The US Government were hurling threats to UN inspectors before the war to declare that Iraq has WMDs
Is it really believable that an intelligent and learned man who had survived the pressures of the Iraqi regime should commit suicide in such an obvious way over a one line accusation about a spin doctor after his part in the inquiry into faulty intelligence was over and the media interest in him was subsiding and certainly would have done over time - are we expected to believe he was such a weak man?

DR KELLY DEATH POSSIBILITIES

Dr Kelly killed himself because of the political and media pressure
Dr Kelly killed himself for lying to Andrew Gilligan and betraying the Government
Dr Kelly killed himself for speaking the truth to Andrew Gilligan and feared for Government repercussions
A combination of either of the first three possibilities
Dr Kelly was assassinated by the intelligence services to stop Dr. Kelly from opening his mouth again and/or as an example to other whistleblowers (possibly with or without Government knowledge) - THE UNTHINKABLE POSSIBILITY THAT THE 'FREE' MEDIA WON'T EVEN DARE SUGGEST HAS HAPPENED

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TIMELINE OF EVENTS

Dr Kelly sends a friend an e-mail in which he expressed a desire to return to the job that meant so much to him. "Hopefully it will soon pass" he wrote "and I can get to Baghdad and get on with the real work." He goes for a walk - a witness sees him smiling before he goes on his walk
His family reports him missing
A body is found suspected to be Dr. David Kelly
The news report the death as "unexplained" - couldn't (or wouldn't) say suicide or murder - after 24 hours they still don't know whether it is suicide or murder (this is thinking time - how to limit Government disrepute and not give away too much damaging information without thought of the long term political consequences)
The Government order an independent judicial inquiry - one of the weakest forms of inquiry with limited powers unlike the Bloody Sunday Tribunal or BSE Enquiry (of course Blair's Government had nothing to hide from either of these enquiries because they weren't in power, but they did hide sensitive information regarding the enquiry into Dunblane killer, Thomas Hamilton)
As Tony Blair struggled to compose himself during a press conference in Japan, panicky MI5 officers were sweeping through the £750,000 home of the 59-year-old germ warfare expert near Abingdon, Oxon. According to the Sunday Mirror, an intelligence source said: "People are starting to put two and two together and they don't like what it is adding up to. There is absolute panic about what Dr Kelly may have left behind. It's a ticking time-bomb...they are desperate to find out what he has done" (click here to hear Blair giving a press conference in Japan)
Blair continues on his world tour to show the world that "everything's fine" and that "the Government isn't in crisis"
July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination
Dr. Kelly doesn't leave a suicide note and chooses a suicide method only used by approximately 10-15% of suiciders
Tony Blair fails to answer an questions and keeps referring to the "wait and see" the outcome of the inquiry. He also rules out recalling parliament to avoid further awkward questioning
20th July - The BBC announces that David Kelly was in the fact the main source for Andrew Gilligan's report which makes the whole situation even more suspicious. It is more likely that Dr. Kelly was hounded by the MoD, Geoff Hoon and Alistair Campbell and more likely that he has paid the price for whistleblowing and it also explains why Dr. Kelly tried to distance himself from Andrew Gilligan by saying he thought he wasn't the main source to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee. The Government will try to twist this round by saying the BBC are accusing Dr. Kelly of lying to the committee when in fact Dr. Kelly could have been scared to death of the consequences of speaking off the record to the media over classified intelligence and Government propaganda tactics.

It is revealed that a day before Dr Kelly died he warned a New York Times journalist of "many dark actors playing games" in an e-mail and Dr. Kelly may have made a phone call to someone from a call box for fear that his phone was being tapped
23rd July - The BBC reveal that they have a tape of Dr. Kelly's evidence to Susan Watts. The BBC is expected to submit the tape as part of its evidence to the judicial inquiry led by Lord Hutton into Dr Kelly's death. I wonder whether this tape will be made public or whether the Government will try to surpress it the interest of "national security".
24th July - Dr Kelly's widow summons Geoff Hoon to a meeting. Nothing is revealed about the discussions.
Don't expect to hear the evidence for yourself. It is announced that there is to be no broadcast of evidence given to the inquiry but we are told that transcripts will be available "almost immediately". Clearly an attempt to make it more difficult for the public to get to know what is said at the inquiry.

25th July - ITN and Sky News have launched complaints to Lord Hutton to reverse his ban on the broadcasting of the inquiry on the grounds the hearings will be of national and historical importance. The BBC has declined to join the action, arguing that as an interested party it should not put itself in conflict with Lord Hutton from the start. But the BBC says it will broadcast the proceedings if the application by Sky and ITN is successful.
27th July - The Government starts to play dirty with threats to the BBC. The BBC chairman said he had been angered at threats from "government sources" to reduce BBC funding, remove its director-general Greg Dyke and change its charter. Typical kind of action employed by people like Robert Mugabe.


MOD OFFICIALS CAUGHT TRYING TO DESTROY THERE COVER-UP PLAN
BBC Online
2nd August 2003

The Ministry of Defence has denied newspaper suggestions that it sought to destroy a document relating to Dr David Kelly. According to the Daily Telegraph, officials were preparing to incinerate a "media plan" about the government weapons expert when they were stopped by security guards. It is alleged that three days after Dr Kelly was found dead, the document was placed in a sack of material due to be burnt. The guards became aware of this and alerted the police. On Saturday, MoD sources conceded to the BBC there had been a "security breach" on 20 July when a bag of confidential material due for incineration was left out overnight. However the sources said they were not aware that any of the material in the bag, which was taken away by Thames Valley Police, related to Dr Kelly.
Blair evidence

The BBC's political correspondent Norman Smith said it seemed unavoidable that Lord Hutton, who is carrying out an inquiry into Dr Kelly's death, would want to know if the police still have the bag and if so whether it does contain any relevant material. He said the allegation raises the spectre of a potential cover-up by government officials whose evidence is likely to form a key part of the inquiry.

Footnote: In another story hitting the headlines today it has been suggested by a forensic expert that it is highly unlikely that the the four soldiers who died at Deepcut Barracks within a space of seven years up to 2002, committed suicide (which the the MoD claims). What do you think? Another cover-up by Tony's cronies?

[Training Risky]

echelon.... echelon.....

[pilotwolf]

..can't possibily comment on the above!

But.. having been in the ambulance service for 14 years to the day, I had never known anyone sucessfully die from cutting their wrists until this incident.

Then by some strange coincidence I attend a call where someone had sucessfully died from cutting his wrists - unfortunately he had needed to almost sever both hands to suceed...

[pulse1]

I have often wondered , and no-one has yet explained, how Dr Kelly was able to go for a walk without being hounded by the media who, I thought, were camped on his doorstep, as is their want at such times.:confused:

[Jackonicko]

I had some disquiet that someone with Kelly's background would choose such a crude, painful, and unreliable means of suicide (he was a biochemist for goodness sake, surely he'd have known, and been able to get, something which would have 'switched his lights out' in an instant?). I had some disquiet that he seemed to be looking forward to 'life after committees' and to going back to Iraq. He hadn't even opened his 'telling off letter' from his line manager. I had some disquiet that none of the likely consequences of his exposure seemed to me to be something that a rational person would commit suicide over, especially in view of his impending retirement.

But someone who has decided on suicide as the way out might well seem 'sorted', rational, 'calm' and even serene and happy, so the fact that he smiled at Mrs Creosote en route to the field doesn't mean anything, IMHO.

Also the alternative explanation just seems to me like a particularly barking conspiracy theory, requiring an implausible cover up to have been undertaken, and assuming a barely credible level of cynicism from the Government.

Interesting that we're still focusing on Kelly, and that there's virtually no coverage of the continued lack of any evidence that Iraq ever had deployable WMD before the war started......

[trium16]

Col. Kurtz says: "THE UNTHINKABLE POSSIBILITY THAT THE 'FREE' MEDIA WON'T EVEN DARE SUGGEST HAS HAPPENED"


I also find that intriguing, the one psychiatrist they wheeled out means absolutely nothing, saying "well nigh certain" DK comitted suicide... what is he? A Mindreader?

Psychiatrists aren't superhuman and their speculation is not so much more valid than an educated guess.

The psychiatrist also said:

"that e-mails Dr Kelly sent to friends at around 11 o'clock, the morning he disappeared, suggested that he still at that stage had some optimism and probably did not have definite ideas of suicide"

Oh.. and a little later he "changed" his mind eh? please!



Given the nature of the death, I'd expect a somewhat more detailed analysis.

From what I recall, only seriously suicidal people with very disturbed minds choose violent ways of suicide, and DK's state of mind didn't inidciate that from the evidence we hear.

I'm not saying he didn't commit suicide, but the one-sided view we are presented leaves one more than disturbed that their are "dark actors" around.

It's sad that trust in this government by the majority of people is absolutely zero. They have sunk so low it makes me sick.

I see Buff"Hoon" is still clinging to his job, despite the latest relevations. Has the man no dignity?

[Scud-U-Like]

I suppose the 'assassins' managed to administer 30 coproxamol to the unfortunate Dr, without leaving a mark on him.

But, of course, the psychiatrist and the toxicologist are all in on the conspiracy too, aren't they?

[ORAC]

Ignoring the experts who have testified that this was almost certainly a suicide.

Ignoring the police inspector who, knowing the suspicions that would arise, treated this as a murder scene and stated catagorically that there were absolutely no evidence, DNA or otherwise, that there had anyone else at the scene.

Ignoring the pathologist's report that, pilotwolfs comment nothwithstanding, the cause of death was the cut to his left wrist.

I would like to make a couple of observations.

In reply to pulse1's question, since both his family and neighbours state he did go for a walk, the answer must be that the press did not follow him. You either have to believe that they are lying, and he was spirited away by other means, or that the press were also part of a conspiracy, but that would seem to make it a bit far fetched in either case.

Secondly, I am amused by some of the false statements and direct contradictions contained in the original article. Some examples.
-------------------------------------------------
CONTRADICTION

Things to bear in mind:

"His wrist was cut and a bottle of pain killers were found near the scene of death. These are two classic hallmarks of suicide".

Timeline of Events:

"July 19th - Police confirm that Dr. Kelly died of bleeding from his slashed left wrist. They found a knife nearby and some pain killers - the typical hallmarks of an assassination."
---------------------------------------------------
FALSEHOODS

"Dr Kelly was looking forward to enjoying his retirement next year. "

He was under investigation and had mentioned to a friend that he was concerned that he would lose not only his job, but also his pension, leaving himself, and his family, destitute.

He had also just discovered that he was suffering from an acute heart condition. he still had the electro-cardiogram pads on his chest when discovered. Hardly a man in a fit state to be looking forward to anything.

"Treason is still a capital offence in Britain".

There is no death penalty in the UK.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also find amusing how items such as the timing of the trip to Japan, agreed months before this entire affair erupted, become sudden conspiratorial decisions.

Still, it's the silly season. Where would we be without a few black helicopters buzzing around. :hmm:

[trium16]

I didn't imply the Psychiatrist was in on the "plot", if there was/is one, but just that one value judgement on a topic of critical importance isn't enough.

Would you take one experts opinion at face value?

I suspect some psychiatrists may offer a more reasonable opinion of "it was likely" not "well nigh certain" especially given the evidence of his reasonable state of mind prior to the alleged suicide.

Think about it.

[Surly Bondslipper]

ORAC,

Pads were put on his chest post-mortem, by medics looking for vital signs.

[KM-H]

ORAC

"There is no death penalty in the UK"

I seem to recall that "Arson in HM Dockyards" is still on the books as a capital offense. Or is that just ar$ing about??
:ooh::ooh:

[dopeonarope]

WOW! REALLY HE WAS MURDERED? Its a bit like Military grade Anthrax to scare the US Public into a war against terrorism .....would that really happen....hmmmmmm

[tonybliar]

Well, if he was murdered, one thing is for sure - it was not by this government because they would have screwed it up!

[ORAC]

SurlyBondslipper, nope, see here (http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg107468.html).

KM-H, I repeat, there is no death penalty in the UK. There hasn't been since November 1998 (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/action/camp/dp/intro/uk.html).

[Archimedes]

ORAC,

That was produced before the Paramedics were examined by Lord Hutton.

The paramedics' evidence is here (http://www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk/content/transcripts/hearing-trans27.htm) - the key bits being:

" A. I unbuttoned the shirt as my colleague was putting the
electrodes on, and moved the right arm up so we could
get the electrode down the bottom.

Q. And once the electrodes had been put on was any activity
noticed?

A. No, no. It was just -- no output or anything.

Q. And what about -- was there any heart activity or
anything like that?

A. No, nothing.

.... [further chunk of evidence]

Q. When you left were the electrodes still on the body or
had they been taken off?

A. No, we left the electrodes on, just removed the wires.

Q. Was there any reason for that?

A. We just -- we always just leave them on."

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

........ and must one suppose that Captain Scarlet did it??????????????/ :zzz: :zzz:

[The Gorilla]

KMH

There is NO death penalty available in the UK for ANYTHING. The final offences governing capital punishment were removed about 10 years ago.

The same principle applies throughout the EU. The death penalty is incompatible with EU membership. No one can be extradited from an EU country if he/she is to face the death penalty in the country requesting extradition.

:cool:

[Woff1965]

I heard a psychiatrist discuss the case on Radio 4 (I think), he said in his experience people commit suicide when they feel they have failed to live up to the standards they set themselves.

Although to be honest there have been a number of strange suicides in the defence field over the last 10-15 years, eg - Marconi Underwater systems experienced a number of "odd" suicides

http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/secdeat2.htm
and
http://www.mysteries.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/4,7.htm

I have a number of friends in the computer industry - several were offered contracts with GEC-Marconi underwater systems and they turned them down despite the hefty wads of cash on the table.

[BEagle]

It has been revealed in the media that fatal toxic poisons had been developed by 'an intelligence agency' which could be administered by being applied to clothing. Hence any coverall or other article of clothing worn by scientists could be 'got at' by hostile agents when being laundered or whatever - and the poison would eventually cause the victim to die of a heart attack or sudden illness.

One country which allegedly had such a program now has a radically different government. But one of the disaffected members of the programme could easily have supplied material to national agencies which wouldn't exactly welcome British success in underwater detection techniques......

[FEBA]

An intriguing who dunnit theory that smacks of credibility.
However;
White phospherous hides the real question - Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?
I believe we were and that lord Hutton's enquiry puts to test the robustness of our democracy.
FEBA

[Zlin526]

Everyone knows that Dr Kelly was rubbed out by 'dark forces'. Its about time this Government stopped behaving like the Americans and owned up! I'm still waiting for the 'evidence' of WMD that Tony Bliar promised to tell us all earlier this year.

This is Great Britain don't ya know!

[StopStart]

Everyone, Zlin? I assume that's everyone on your ward........

http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/icon_drool.gif

[European Crash]

People have been sniffing the AVTUR again - anyone who has spent any length of time in the 'corridors of confusion' will know that conspiracies just don't work.

Dr Kelly stepped outside the cosy world of off-the-record chats with journos and spoke about extremely sensitive issues when he was not authorised to do so. Although clearly a man of conviction, he knew the rules about the release of information - and even though time, and the Hutton enquiry - may vindicate those actions, he placed himself under an enormous amount of pressure, regretfully assisted by the release of his name into the public domain. None of us can acurately determine his state of mind on that fateful afternoon however anyone who has faced a GCM, or indeed has awaited the outcome of a 1021 or the curious 1074 will know what it is to shake with fear. He may have felt that he brought this on himself (which, in part, is true) but we will never know.

As to being rubbed out by one of the agencies, come off it! As several commentators have noted, the real issue is the probity of the Government. Pity a few Ministers didn't do the decent thing with the Mess revolver.

[Jackonicko]

My understanding is that Kelly's job description included the provision of OTR NA background briefings to journalists.

If Kelly spoke about militarily sensitive issues, most of us would be inclined to believe that he 'had it coming'. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating the defence of this country could not be condoned.

But he seems to have spoken about politically sensitive issues, which seems very much less serious, and which may even deserve sympathy - since he could have been seen to have been acting in the public interest. Damaging or revealing weaknesses relating to the credibility of Tony and the Labour Party doesn't seem like a hanging matter.

As FEBA inferred, the real issue, highlighted by Gilligan, is: "Were we misled into going to war by threat of WMD that could be deployed in 45 minutes?"

Anything else is smoke and mirrors.

[FEBA]

Euro Crash
I have difficulty agreeing with your post. Dr Kelly's job was to brief the press, I'm sure that his ROE were clearly defined in the job description.
It would appear that Dr Kelly, a reasoned and rational man, was plagued by his conscience and I'm sure it was this that forced him to step outside of his terms of reference.

So a question for you; if someone as clear thinking as Dr kelly who would be well aware of the consequences of his actions, go to the press (BBC) with information likely to bring down a government, if he thought it would result in the loss of his life?

I would have thought that he would be more likely to take his life if he was responsible for duping a nation into war rather than take it because he was a whistle blower.
FEBA

[A Civilian]

I would have thought that he would be more likely to take his life if he was responsible for duping a nation into war rather than take it because he was a whistle blower.

WMD's were not used to begin this war, it was used as a pretext for begining this war. Thats two very different concepts.

I dont know whether it was wetwork or not but I do know that Dr Kelly R.I.P. was as the government admited after his death the top expert on bio-weapons in the country, that he helped put the infamous "Saddams WMD's" docet together and that he was the only man who could go upto parliment and say which parts of it was his work and which parts of it had been altered by a certain spin docter who will remain nameless and who was acting under orders from his boss who will also remain nameless.

[FEBA]

A Civvie

WMD's were not used to begin this war, it was used as a pretext for begining this war. Thats two very different concepts.

Actually it's one concept as they are both directly related. The threat of the existance of WMD and their deployment within 45 minutes was used to dupe the nation into war. Dr Kelly new this to be false on both counts.

If you know the names of these nameless persons, wouldn't it be a good idea reveal what you know in this thread.

It is possible that British lives have been needlessly lost in Iraq, many of them by FF. If they were my kids, I'd want to know why and see that those responsible leave politics post haste.

Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori ?

FEBA

[ORAC]

FEBA,

Far from "knowing" the existence of WMD to be false, Dr Kelly was totally convinced of their existence and believed that regime change in Iraq was the only way to achieve their destruction. The following testimony was given by his immediate family at the inquiry. I see no reason to believe they lied.

The Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7813-801267,00.html)

Mrs Pape described how he had converted her, her husband and their younger brother from sceptics to supporters of the Iraq war by the force of his own reluctant but firm belief in it. “We realised that each of us changed our minds before the war itself . . . (due to) individual conversations that we had with my brother,” she said, giving evidence in person yesterday.

“I thought he would agree with me that there was no need for war . . . I was very surprised when he was absolutely and utterly convinced there was almost certainly no solution other than a regime change, which was unlikely to happen peaceably and regrettably would require military action to enforce it,” she said.

“He had absolutely no doubt at all that unless there was a complete change of heart in Iraq or change of regime, that they would have to be forcibly disarmed of their potential to produce weapons of mass destruction.”

Later she told of her brother’s eagerness to return to his weapons monitoring task. “He was absolutely convinced they were buried in the sand, in the desert somewhere . . . he desperately wanted to go back to Iraq to finish the job.”

[European Crash]

FEBA - Dr Kelly confused his personal opinions with his role as, inter alia, a non-attributable briefer. As I said in my post, time and the Hutton Enquiry may vindicate his views however, I remember what was once said to me, many years ago, when I went to work in a secure area: 'Leave your moral indignation at the door - that is the job of the Politicians'.

Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of this whole sorry affair, it is a slippery road to travel if military personnel and civil servants openly question or attempt to undermine our political masters. To do so undermines the western principle of democratic control of the armed forces (compare with Turkey, for instance, and the uneasy role of the General Staff within the Cabinet). Politicians are accountable to the electorate and not to the military; the recent efforts of Messrs Blair and Hoon has not be lost on the voters.

Even if the Public were misled over Iraq - so what? Here was a country that had used ballistic missiles in 2 previous conflicts, had used nerve agents and other CW gainst its own people (and Iranian troops) and remained a major regional kleptographic destabiliser. War - initiated by the US - was inevitiable and the UK participation in it allows us to have a major say in regional affairs and post-conflict reconstruction. Sniping from the sidelines (vide France, Germany) would have got us precisely nowhere. The UK remains a big player - diplomatically, economically and militarily. Let's remain a force for good.

[FEBA]

Euro Crash
Thank you for your post, it makes interesting reading.
You said:
To do so undermines the western principle of democratic control of the armed forces
And then:
Even if the Public were misled over Iraq - so what?
You contradict yourself. Surely the true strength of a democracy, regardless of which side of the political meridian it lies, is the ability to be scrutinised and corruptness ousted. Watergate a classic example.

If sadam wishes to gas his own then that's his business and no concern of ours, other than say, diplomatic protest at the UN.

If sadam threatens our industrial infrastructure by turning off the oil tap; we go and beat him up.

If sadam lets off nerve agents in piddle Hinton; we go and beat him up.

Sorry to be simplistic, often the most complicated matters are in the end, but none of the above happened. So why were we there and why were we encouraged to send our forces to war on claims that so deeply troubled Dr kelly? And why did the chiefs of staff doubt the legality of war with Iraq? Where are the WMD and why has all talk of them faded into the politcal ether?

Fancy debating this over a pint.
FEBA

[European Crash]

Now that a war has happened, the issue of the presence of WMD is largely irrelevant however the issue remaining is whether there was 'intent to deceive' or mens rea.

Yes - I would enjoy being the Devil's Advocate in this case - debating over a chilled glass of Limocella, perhaps.

Cin cin

Crash

[maninblack]

Does nobody round here feel that it is amazing how quickly the government organised this public enquiry into the Kelly situation when it normally takes months to get an enquiry moving?

It is amazing that all these people, including ministers and Blair himself were suddenly available for this enquiry at short notice.

It is amazing that ministers are not available to meet bodies of servicemen killed in Iraq such as the RAF policeman who was flown back, stuffed in a hearse and driven to Scotland without so much as a local MP to pay respects to the coffin as it was brought off the plane (according to a local source)

This is a very convenient smokescreen for the government, whilst the press have a Kelly related feeding frenzy no one is paying attention to the increasingly crappy aftermath of George & Tony's foreign policy.

[FEBA]

Euro crash
The issue of WMD may be irrelevant to you but it wont be irrelevant to those that have lost sons, daughters, husbands and wives, if it turns out that we had no reason to be in Iraq other than a burning desire by the PM to support the US and boulster a weak president.

If limocella is an italian wine count me out. Mine's a pint of London pride. I shall be in the Willerby Arms at Leadenham tonight 1830 onwards. I'm the tall bloke trying to grow a tash.

FEBA

[timzsta]

I did a 6 month Armilla Patrol ending in march 2000. We spent a great deal of time in the North Arabian Gulf. Not once we were required, at any time, to have the ship at any higher level of preparedness for a chemical/biological attack then the normal peacetime cruising state. During that time I saw the Al Faw penisular with my own eyes from the bridge of the ship (albeit it night, with night vision equipment) on more then one occasion, and I add from outside Iraqs territorial waters.

I also participated in the major exercise off Oman in Oct 2001. This is now seen by many as a "dress rehearsal" for the invasion of Iraq. At no time did we exercise the chemical threat.

From that I can conclude that in March 2000 Iraq did not have any WMD that could be deployed in 45 mins if it did I would have been required to have my respirator by my side for most of the deployment. By March 2003, the Government of the United Kingdom had stated that Iraq had the capability to launch a WMD attack in 45 mins. Given that the process of UN inspectors being sent back to Iraq began in Sep 2002, and that if he did indeed have any WMD it is about at this time he would have began hiding them, that gives Saddam Hussein and the Iraqi regime approximately 30 months to develop a chemical/biological WMD capability that could be used at 45 minutes notice.

Now I am far from an expert on chem/bio/WMD - but it seems highly unlikely that such a capability could have been developed so quickly.

[FEBA]

Message to Miss Caplin
What was the real reason for going to war with Iraq and why didn't you personally involve yourself with the unfashionable desert combat uniform our boys had/have to wear out there?
FEBA

[Big Unit Specialist]

timzsta,

As one who was in the region - on the ground and in the air - for protracted periods from Feb 98 to Feb 02 I can assure you that we were aware of a higher threat than you, and were from time subjected to a gentle stroll to the bunkers when uncle Saddam threw some unknown hardware at us. Picture if you will 200 peaple trying to get in a shelter designed for 20.

We always thought those afloat had a different understanding of what was going on!!!! - or not.

Now safely in blighty but still have sand in parts I didn't know I had) :ok::D

[FEBA]

BUS
If you were aware of WMD how come Dr Hans Blix says there was no WMD in Iraq and hasn't been for the last ten years?
FEBA

[A Civilian]

We should of gotten out when the French did and told Clinton to f***off with these domestic political games.

I cant believe im agreeing with the French :yuk:

[Big Unit Specialist]

FEBA,

not commenting on presence or not, just the percieved "threat".

['aint an eye!]

Hi bods...

...analysis indicates Dr kelly's demise was indeed a 'thug job'...

...tango oscar sierra sierra...wink wink.

(DISCLAIMER: This is just my assessment.)