Flight Engineers

[trium16]

Do pilots on the 744 and newer a/c miss the flight engineer?

Not talking about the safety aspects here, but just the company of TWO others in the flightdeck, esp over long haul.

I once flew a 727 a few years back, and was allowed to sit in the jump seat - the banter between the three guys was amusing and looking back to it, it seems now with only two in the cockpit.. isn't life a little lonelier?

[Notso Fantastic]

Maybe a little bit lonelier for some, but I have never once missed a Flight Engineer since going onto the 737 and now the 747-400. The way the systems of the 747 are designed, there is as much use for a FE as for the old Radio Operators and Navigators. He really would be completely surplus to requirements.
This is a fairly unpopular point of view, especially amongst FEs, but I think it's the truth.

[sanket_patel]

LOL, funny cause we pilots will be surplus to requirements in a couple of decades!

[Notso Fantastic]

And maybe that's the truth too. What will come will come. When you are happy to put yourself in a pilotless aeroplane for hours on end, maybe I will start lying awake at night worrying. But in the meantime, it doesn't change the fact that FEs are not needed today !
Did you know Air France used to operate their 737s with 3 Flight Crew including a Flight Engineer? Must have been a cosy Flight Deck!

[JW411]

I miss the F/E very much. This topic has been been discussed on pprune many times before so I shall say little more than that.

The trouble with Notso's argument is that everywhere he lands at he and his mates have a huge amount of backup and the only decision to be made is where the next beer is coming from.

If he ever got himself off the beaten track, in darkest Africa for example, then he would know where I'm coming from. The F/E was the best bit of kit known to man.

I wonder how many Concordes the F/Es have saved?

[Jack Point]

Whats a flight engineer ?

[exeng]

<<Whats a flight engineer ?>>

A flight deck crew member who occupies the seat behind the pilots. In brief his or her duties include inflight aircraft systems management, but perhaps as importantly flight path monitoring when company SOP's include the integrated flight crew concept. F/E's usually carry some maintenance approval which can enable them to keep the show on the road if no engineering cover is available.

Not So Fantastic makes the point that he has never once missed the F/E since operating on a two crew aircraft. That is not my experience. I have found that in a two crew environment, particularly when operating with a very inexperienced F/O the opinion of a professional F/E would be very useful; never more so than when the workload has increased due to technical problems. Also from a CRM viewpoint the F/E can be very useful in resolving a difference of opinion between the two pilots.

My opinions may have some bias in that for many years I operated as an F/E. Removing the F/E means that I still sometimes have to eat the chicken!


Regards
Exeng

[SOPS]

:( Where did AF fit a FE in a 737 Flight Deck?

[ferrydude]

"I wonder how many Concordes the F/Es have saved?" as opposed to how many did they ensure the demise of?

[av8boy]

Whats a flight engineer ?
A flight deck crew member who occupies the seat behind the pilots...
I believe it was a facetious question/observation/comment. Sort of like, "what's a phonograph?" or "what's a soft field takeoff?"

Damned young turks and their youth...

;) Dave

PS Actually, I feel as though the answer to "What's a flight engineer" might present possibilities for an ongoing thread on Jetblast. For instance, I believe that a qualified South Park answer might be, "about three-fitty." However, I'm thinking that Drapes would add much to my meager attempt... :8

[Dan Winterland]

Used to fly the 744, now fly the Classic and I love flying with FEs again. Not only is he a flying tech manual, he's also an extra pair of eyes on the flight deck. I quite often get picked up on things I've missed by the man who has the best view of the flight deck. Make me wonder how much I missed on the 744 without realising.

I think (but am prepared to be corrected) that Air France fly their 744s with an FE. Also Ansett had an FEs staion on their 767s which consisted of a repeater of the lower EICAS screen. Although the job must have been a bit quiet for them.

[Pnooze]

Coming back to the origanal question, i flew with F/E"S on the Tristar for four years a while back, and miss them a lot. As previously stated they are a walking VOL 1, generally, very good on the social circut, and useful for repairing the girls hairdryers, and hotel kettles!
However as a young F/O you often needed thick to put up with the banter until one had proved oneself competent in his eyes!
Looking back with the benefit of hindsight, a good F/E was worth his weight in gold, and the bad ones, who were usually wannabee pilots were a liability. I can still remember 2 occasions when a short, muscular and rather hairy arm came onto the power levers to save the day :)