friends, salaries and aviation

[Jacobest]

After reading what was said at Rude operations on 126.9, it made me start to think about how two pilots can be friends in aviation (especially in South Africa). You see, there are so many pilots looking for work that it seems "pilots" will do anything to get a job now a day. They will undercut their fellow "friends" just to get that job. Recently I was offered a job in Algeria to fly a King Air 200. The contractor wanted to offer me $2000.00 to fly there, living in a compound and getting an armed escort to the airport. The $2000.00 included SNT plus the cost of my ticket to get there every time. Needles to say, that left me with about $900.00 to put in my pocket. I was shocked to find out later that another pilot took the same job for $1000.00. His reason, he needed the job.
As long as there are "friends out there like that, who needs enemies. Now I see the latest trend is to bad mouth fellow pilots. The more dirt you can disclose to other people about fellow aviators, the better your chances are of getting ahead. Or so it seems.

We, as pilots, need one another and we need to stand together. By doing that we will get the salaries and the respect we deserve. Without it, charter companies will continue to take advantage of the pilots because they know; there will always be someone who is willing to take the job for cheaper.
Guys, we are professionals and we should treat each other that way. There was an old saying that "what happens on contract, stays on contract". Respect each other and things will go a lot better.

Having said that, my first recommendation is that this forum be used to decide what a fair salary is for going on contract. It will help to make things better for us, THE PILOTS. Once a salary gets decided on, it should be stuck to, and if guys undercut, they should be dealt with. It sounds harsh, but you will be surprised what happens when people stand together.

So my suggestion is, give a place and an average salary you think is fair for flying in that area.

My first one is. Malabo Captain $4500 - $5000.00 per month.
This area of West Africa is becoming a very popular place for oil companies. It also gives rise to civil unrest as have been shown in Sao Tome recently. Lets not beat around the bush. Flying in Africa is not safe.
Well guys, use it or don't
I wish you all the best without all the backstabbing

[JJflyer]

Jacobest.

If all of us pilots would agree on what salaries needed to be paid by geographical location, equipment flown and previous experience that would be just great.

There would probably be a possibility to set some guidelines, but how to make sure that people go by these guidelines. International independent piltos association of some kind? Would probably work.

There will allways be pilots that come from third world countries and areas where say 2000 USD a month is equivalent to 6 months salary home or even more.
I had a particular experience with this some years back where pilots from a embargoed Middle Eastern country took over all positions.
Needless to say that all of us high pay guys eventually left as company used tactic that made it clear that we where not wanted anymore. The backstabbing you mentioned was beyond any I have ever seen before. One of the "New" and "Affordable" pilots was in the office all the time telling stories to management as to how bad we where... Looked like they had office shifts:}

There are various reasons why people choose to fly airplanes. Me for one like flying, money is secondary. But then one has to make a living and pay for the bread on the table. I can understand why a 200 hour pilot would accept a position flying for 1000 a month or even less. Afterall hours are needed to proceed to the next level.
Kids home, no job. A dilemma. Someone offers a position flying for 1000 a month. What to do?

Only advice I can give is not to sell yourself too cheap.

Cheers

JJ

[Jacobest]

Hello JJ
Thanks for the suggestions and, yes, it is like you say in your opening “If all of us pilots would agree”.
It seems to be that that is where the problem lies. I feel a guideline is necessary because when I started working contracts, I did not know what the average salary should be, so whatever the contractor threw at me, I accepted to be the norm and took it, Because like we all know, contractors are not there to Scr*w us over.
Their first and only obligation is to the pilots. RIGHT?

If I can get enough general guidelines as to what to charge, when to charge it, I will gladly take all that info and at my own expense, compile a PILOTS SALARY GUIDELINE booklet and distribute it at all the major pilot shops in South Africa.
But to do that I need info from the PILOTS, you guys. And this includes Contacts and Charters at home (S.A.) If guys are to scared to do it here they can e-mail me on [email protected]

As to enforcing these guidelines, NOT AT ALL. That is what they will be. I know that I said pilots should be dealt with if they don’t stick to the guidelines, but that is wrong. However, the aviation community is small in South Africa, so if a guy wants give himself a bad name, go ahead, somewhere it will catch up to him.

As you also said, I also like flying. Otherwise I would not be doing it. But sitting in a CB at night struggling to get to your destination and risking your life while someone else benefits hugely from your hard work and then only pays you a quarter of what you are supposed to get, is very unfair. Why is it that when things go “BAD” pilots salaries are the first to be cut. If Pick n’ Pay has a special on produce, does that mean their staff gets less money?
So why do we have to stand for that. It gets me when I fly for $4000.00 a month without any benefits whatsoever, only to find out later that my contractor is getting $10 000.00 a month for my services he is selling out to companies. So he now gets to take $6000.00 of my earnings and put it in his pocket?

Maybe I’m venting a bit, but it is time that these “little things” get out there so that people can see what is really happening.

At his stage I can only repeat what you said: “NEVER SELL YOURSELF TOO CHEAP”

Cheers and watch out for all those stab wounds in the back.

[4granted]

Jaco
Good idea for the guide lines. This topic has been on everybodys tongues for quite awhile now. I dont know if things like two crew has had an effect on the situation or what, but I remember being paid 5K + to fly single crew contract. Now you're lucky if you get 3500 for a 2 crew ops as a Captain??!
The operators also have been using the fluctuating exchange rates to cut the salaries, yet when the Rond strengthend, did the salaries go up? No way!
I flew the 200 contract in Algeria and was paid 4 straight. My co pilot got command( even though not meeting the requirements) at a much lower $ rate and does longer tours therefore once again screwing the system(we were only allowed to be there for 5 weeks at a time and now they are doing 3 month rotations??) Dont think its the same crowd but....
Ill back you on this issue all the way.
4g:ok:

[Gerund]

While I agree that, in an ideal world, it would help if pilots didn't undercut each other, these matters are all relative.

A salary for a Malabo captain of $4,500 - $5,000 might seem fair for a South African contract pilot, but is gross undercutting for a European pilot.

It is no coincidence that very little contract flying is done by European companies, and the United Nations predominantly use those from South Africa and Eastern Europe. Pitifully low salaries, when compared to those paid elsewhere in the world, are a major factor in arriving at the competitive tenders that these geographical areas manage.

[Jacobest]

Gerund
Thank you for that comment, cause that is exactly what I am trying to establish. Call it a worldwide salary scale if you will. The idea is to bring everybody on par.
Flying is, after all, a global game.
So why dont you let me know what you think a fair salary is for Malabo.
Thanks

[tundra runner]

Your thread caught my attention, I have no input over salaries but as a pilot who has been struggling with this industry for 15 odd years, I hate to say that is it not only the operaters who ruin it but people who do things like in the thread in the Middle East forum "Qatar Airways as a F/O" now that erks me.

[bfd777]

Stick to your guns and do not sell yourself too cheap. I have been around a lot of deadbeat and low pay operations and they always get what they deserve in the end. Operators beware: Hire the person who will do it the cheapest and you may end up paying more for damaged aircraft or worse.
:(

[BadAndy]

Preach on Brother Jaco. You and I had this discussion many a night over those cheap bottles of Brandy... :D And, you're still absolutely correct... Set the pay and keep it up... But, good luck not getting undercut. There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job...

Okay, fireproof suit on. Flame away all..... :eek:

BadAndy

(PS, got your email, but having trouble responding, your ISP is rejecting mail from the desert... Email me your number, hopefully I'll be down there in a month or so...)

[Gunship]

Great idea Jaco,

Here is Sierra Leone it is such a joke.

"Eastern Block" Captains flies for $1 500.00 .. stay between locals and get muthers every night.

Lost three on Fri when they they drunkenly "attacked" a Army Bedford in their mini bus.

Co jocks - $1k.

Sorry must buzz off.

Nice thread and great if people can work together !

Cheers,

Gunzzz

[JJflyer]

Yip Gunns, you hit the spot on Easter European pilots salaries. For them these salaries are actually very good as they get it paid (Mostly) in hard currency. As for me. I could not work with that ad pay my monthly expenses in Europe.

I still think that there should be some work all pilots flying independently on contracts around the world could do together. Just a salary guide will not do it alone, but would help. As Bad Andy said
"There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job..."

I have to admit that when I looked for my first job, I had no info on what these positions should pay.

Personally I am not a union man as present unions do no good for me. Many would probably be willing to take my money , but should there be e problem of any kind, I am sure that I would get no help.
So far a contract pilot has been alone and at the mercy of their employers. Is it time to start to do something about it, or are pilots to spread out and from too different backrounds, both financial and ethnic, to agree on something globally?

JJ

[V1 Rotate]

I was undercut by guys who were prepared to work for less than half what I had been getting on contract for nearly 3 years.
It is a pity that the SACAA seem to validate just about any type of license to go on contract in ZS airplanes.
We should realy set some kind of international standard for pilot rates and licensing and stick to them.
I for one had to come to the US ( and do a full US ATP ) to get what I wanted. I feel for the guys who cannot come overseas. There is absolutely no comparison with overseas salaries but the job is just the same, if anything it is much easier in Europe and the US.
I wonder what percentage of SA jobs are being done by foreign validations??

V1

Whilst on the subjct of salaries:
I can contribute that currently, in the USA, a Citation Captain can expect + - $500 per day + expenses; Citation F/O $250 - $400 per day + expenses.
Hawker Captain $800- $1000 per day; F/O $300 - $600 per day + expenses. Of course this is all subject to experience but these numbers are good ball park. In the right position you can expect to fly about 18 days per month.
When one is off there is so much to do here!!

V1

[nomoneynowek]

V1, personal message coming through

[JJflyer]

Some salary Info

A contract F/O in Europe on B737, MD80 or A320 through a contract agency 5000 USD a month add per diems and expenses. Average 7000 USD a month.
Contract F/O salaries vary from 3500 to 8000 USD a month depending on how much flying and travelling is involved as well as who is the customer airline or agency.

First Officers generally should make about 75% of a Captains salary.

As an independent F/O 4 years ago on a private B737 I was paid 550 USD a day + all expenses like food, rental car, laundry etc paid by the company. Business class travel between base and home. Captain making 950 USD a day with same conditions.

A private B727 Captain based in Europe 8000 USD a month with 110 USD per diem when on the road. F/O and F/E 6300 USD a month with same per diem. (If you actually get paid)
:ugh:

Some operators seem to think it is OK not to pay their employees or their bills. This is another issue that would be good to tackle together rather than alone.

JJ

[Jacobest]

Thanks for all the guys who have sent through some info already.
I was always under the impression that I was the only person who had this problem and, I thought it only happened in South Africa. So far two things have come from this. This problem seems to be a worldwide phenomenon. So maybe I should change it to a "Worldwide Pilot Salary Guideline".

Secondly, from what I see, not all operators are plying this "lets pay the minimum wage" game. So to the operators who do pay fair salaries, THANK YOU. Maybe some operators would like to comment on this thread about what they think. V1 Rotate did bring up a very valid point about the CAA. Validating foreign licenses left right and centre while there are guys at home struggling to find work. I think though that it is just not the CAA that does that, but a lot of other foreign Civil Aviation Authorities.
So the problem now is, how to protect the jobs in your own country. Because now, not only do you have to compete with your own peers, but also, you have to compete with foreigners.

But maybe that is a whole new thread. Thanks to the guys who have sent me e-mails as well, I respect the fact that you don’t want your name and details to appear here. Let me just say one thing, if you guys saw the e-mails I got, you will be shocked at the stories that have come through and the Company names. So-called reputable companies who are raping the industry. At least now I know where I will not be offering my services.

Keep on sending those salary advices and once again, watch out for those stab wounds. They do hurt.
Cheers
:ok:

[Vortex Thing]

Tell you what then. I'll promise not to use my South African Licence if you promise not to let anymore of your countrymen come over to UK and take jobs from us Brits.

Is this Xenophobia I see or just frustration. The facts are that there are unemployed pilots up the ying yang in the states, in OZ and all over Europe.

I thought SA was lovely but I really do not want to have to get a job 8000 miles from my friends and family. Unfortunately when all the doors are closed here and you been unemployed for a few months then of course if someone offered you a job for nothing except bread and water in Africa you'd take it, as would any African who could get a better job here.

You can't have a worldwide pay scale that would be like saying that the 16 year old from Soweto who works in McDonalds should get the same in Jo'burg as they would in London. Maybe in an ideal world they would but the facts are that petrol cost almost 5 times the price here and I pay $1800 USD a month for my mortagage alone that would probably buy a mansion in South Africa. Trust me I don't live in a mansion here.

So b4 bleating on at the wages being so poor check to see what the lower cost arilines and charters pay in UK.

Centerline Charter in Bristol are currently paying £10GBP per day to new charter pilots because they know that there are people who will work for that. It kinda makes $100USD attractive much less $1000USD.

At Easyjet on the other hand £2000pcm means that you take home about £14000pcm for a nontype rated new F/O.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should get that little but if you are getting $1000USD a month as a charter pilot and you don't like it do something else, there are plenty of people willing to step into your lucky ass shoes because at least you don't have to go to the unemployment office to get your money.

The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.

[Jacobest]

Vortex Thing

Not a problem, then just stop sending okes over here who come and do their licenses in South Africa because its cheaper. Maybe then you wont have as many SA licenses coming back to England for validations.

I agree with you that this is a problem and that is why I said, the problem maybe lies with the civil aviation authorities. Maybe they should have a look at what happens in their own countries before they start to issue all these validations. Lets face it, a lot of American and European pilots are pissed off at South Africans because they are taking all the jobs away by flying for less. Or maybe it’s the operators undercutting each other to get the jobs. How do they do it? By paying the pilots less. So if there was a guideline and if the pilots maybe knew what salaries should be, then maybe contractors would not be able to undercut each other any more, but then again, pilots like yourself might not see it this way.

I left my company because of exactly this reason. We were getting more and more contracts by undercutting European and American companies. I have been unemployed now for 4 months, struggling my arse off and yet, I am not willing to sell myself short by running for jobs that pay nothing.

What do you think would happen if Centerline Charter in Bristol could no longer find pilots who would be willing to fly for £10GBP per day? Maybe, just maybe, they would have to increase the salary offered. It is a chicken or egg scenario. Pilots just grab what they can because they know that if “I don’t take it, someone else will”

But if everybody started saying, “No thanks, not for me, maybe give me a little more” then companies might not take advantage of us Pilots any more.

“The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.” Great quote, but aviation also does not have the right to treat us like whores competing against each other for some scraps that fall off the table.

If you don’t like the idea of a worldwide salary guideline, how about a salary guideline in your area. Why is it that Airlines can get it right to pay there pilots according to a worldwide scale and not contract and charter pilots. Are we that stupid to accept whatever gets thrown at us?

[JJflyer]

One could argue the point of RSA CAA validating licenses left ad right. It is not an easy procedure for those involved.

I am all for free movement of labour. If there's a need of pilots with certain qualifications in one geographical area and over supply in another it should be possible to move about without too much hassle.

As a remined to those objecting non South Africans flying ZS registered aircraft on validations, I have to remind you that there are tens of South Africans flying in Europe, Australia and the US of A on both validations as well as permanent licenses. I have nothing against this.

JJ

[V1 Rotate]

JJ,
The point I am making here is that one CANNOT fly for hire or reward on a validation either in the US or Europe. Whereas certain South African companies tell prospective contract foreign pilots it is a half day in-house affair at Lanseria with 1 circuit.
In the US I had to go through stringent security checks, medical, writen exams, sim course, initial flight test, part 135 flight test etc etc. And obtain a full stand-alone US ATP with a new rating for each type before I could even think of earning 1 cent. Not to mention Immigration!!
In the UK the process is much harder and takes a lot longer.
Compair the hassle and the cost for an SACAA validation !


:( :( :( :(
V1 Rotate

[George Tower]

As an aspiring airline pilot I have read this thread with interest. There are so many issue it raises and to be honest I can't see that anything changing as only highly organised action on the part of unions could affect some sort of change which lets face it will never happen.

I think part of the problem is that we all (in the words of an airline pilot friend of mine) prostitute ourselves to aviation. Well certainly the vast majority of us that don't have sponored training or a military background. I don't hear of lawyers or doctors spending over hundreds of thousands of Rand on their basic professional training. In the UK there is even a course costing upwards of £60,000 and that doesn't include living expenses. At the end of this you have 250 hours and fresh CPL/IR. You might be qualified to fly the big jets but with thousands of people in front of you who is realistically going to employ you to sit in the right hand seat of a shiny new 737.

It seems that most airlines want 1000 - 1500 hours before they will look at you. Many want turbine time. And so it is that many of us will find ourselevs heavily in debt thinking of how we can get up to a thousand hours so that we may be taken seriously when it comes to applying for the jobs we want. So given that it is my ambition to fly airliners what am I to say if the opportunity comes up to fly a kingair for a year for peanuts? I'd be thinking to myself that at the end of it I'd have some decent professional experience and then would be taken seriously in the job market. So it goes then that employers must be loving it. Perhaps we will even be daft enough to pay for our own type-rating?

Having given it some thought I don't think there is any easy answer. A world-wide body publishing some sort of guidelines may just scratch the surface. The only real way would be exterminate half the worlds pilots thereby reversing the supply/demand equation which at the moment ensures that most of us other than those at the very top get shafted. Things have swung so far in favour of the employers now that Ryanair even charge you for the privaledge of applying for a job with them. I actually find that quite nausiating.

The bottom line though is that we all have a choice. Lets just hope that no matter how hard competition for jobs gets that none of us start sh1tting on our fellow pilots.

[V1 Rotate]

GT,
For my part I have always paid for all my training and type ratings. I have always presented myself to employers fully licensed,rated and ready to go. The issue here is whether one is employed with a training bond or a contract pilot earning contract money. I personally fall into the latter category.
I feel that it is still grossly unfair that a South African has to go to all the lengths of getting necessary hours, passing numerous exams, paying for type ratings etc. and then have to compete with Igor who is validating a Transylvanian moped license supported by an Alice in Wonderland log book.
V1

[JJflyer]

Yip. I flew pt135 in US for a few years with a "Fly by night" (Literally) operation. As I had done my training in US ad had FAA CPL I was set to go. Immigration was a totally different issue and
I will not tackle that.

To get a validation in RSA one need to complete some written exams, namely air law, have a class one medical and complete a flight test in the type of aircraft to be operated. Apparently there are 2 types of validations. One allows to operate in RSA and the other is only valid outside the borders.

A validation in Europe will allow you to fly commercially in and out as well as in Europe on the type and capacity validation has been issued. Not easy to get one, but can be done. UK seems to have the least friendly CAA in Europe. Biggest problem still is how rules are interpreted by different CAA's around Europe. Finland will issue a validation for a year only, and it cannot be renewed. Ireland willl validate a license for 6 moths at the time, renewals are possible. Iceland will validate for a year with renewal possibilities.

Biggest difference to RSA seems to be that individuals cannot apply for a validation of a professional license, rather it has to be done by a company. So one needs to have a job to get a validation. Guess it's catch 22.

JJ

[V1 Rotate]

JJ,
Hate to argue, but I've just been through the whole thing with UK CAA. They will validate everything I have but definately not for hire or reward.
I can get a JAA license from them when I have written 14 subjects, done a GBP500 medical at Gatwick and completed an IF flight test. And all this only on the basis of them having scrutinised my logbooks.
I plan to actually do all this later in the year.
Sorry to hear of your experiences in the US, suggest you check stuff out a bit better next time!
V1

[B Sousa]

I think I can jump in on this one. Having recently gotten my RSA validation on my FAA Com. It was a fun experience. In fact it was so much fun I took the Air Law exam twice. I also learned that fun in the RSA costs R216 every time you take it. Then you get to give them R 433 for a validation.......Unlike the FAA where its free with them and the only time you pay is with a Flight School.
Also one does not need a job before getting a validation as I think was mentioned on the last post. One only needs Money for the CAA. They have a special counter just to accept all major Credit Cards, Cash and who knows maybe even Diamonds.
Anyway I thought Air Law was Air Law, not true, things you do here in Afreeka are not the same as the states and one could easily be killed using two sets of rules. Based on that I humbly accept that I learned something which makes the investment worth it.
I also never involve myself with a company that would take work away from someone depending on an income. Being somewhat retired it works well for me both in the RSA and the States. Im more than happy to do part time or on call work. This gives me the ability to stay out of the petty bickering of those who are after each others jobs.
As for flying in the UK, never have, dont want too, and they probably dont need my attitude anyway..
Back to part 135 in La$ Vega$. www.heliusa.com Come and visit.........By the way you will need money there also, not for the FAA but for those Casinos.....
Next Post Please................

[JJflyer]

V1 Rotate

If you have 1500h as PIC in a transport category jet you can be issued a validation as PIC and if 1500h as SIC a validation as SIC. With this validation one CAN fly either as Captain or F/O in commercial air transport.

What you where describing was not a validation , but a conversion to a JAA license and those requirements you have to meet to obtain one. Once you have done your 14 odd exams and a flight check you will be issued a JAA ATPL or CPL not a validation.

It is not easy in Europe. But can be done. Apparently JAA and FAA have started to negotiate again about mutual recognition... How long will it take is another question.

Why do we need to have al these different licenses. Wouldn't it ber sooooo much easier to have one common worldwide license that would be good everywhere?

Cheers for now

JJ

[B Sousa]

JJ
It would be very nice to have a License recognized around the world. As I mentioned above, rules are different and until all these FAA, CAA's get together with the same book its best to do it the way it is.
Besides if it were easy look at all the money that would be saved on training, licensing etc. We cant have that.

[JJflyer]

Hello Bert.

Savings, yes, there would be and you are right too. We can't have that. Training centers and flight schools would lose too much money in the game. UK schools are allready screaming bloody murder about losing students to "Cheap" schools outside the country. Am I surprised about UK schools losing students and not being able to compete with foreign schools. No! When ATPL theoretical course costs over 4000 UK pounds and you can do the same course in an other EU country for less than half, no wonder.

Back to subject

There are several issues that face contract pilot

Converting licenses is just one problem with all theother that face contract pilots. Salaries and the lack of it being the one of the biggest.

I argue that if a company treats it's employees fairly one will be more willing to work for less money and be more motivated to do their best. Nothing pisses me off more than not getting being paid on time and when asking for the money getting all the lied right to your face.
Many companies nowadays resort to lies, threats and deception as their modus operandi. They fail to understand that these practices actually reduce profitability and thus affect the company in long term.
From a pilots point of view this generates a problem as there is allways someone who is willing to step in and take your job.

All for now

JJ

[BAKELA]

Kunjani African Prooners, and other Prooners lurking around here.

Reading this thread and the one about the rudeness on 126.9, this thread should have been called "Salaries and aviation" and not "Friends, salaries and aviation".

Just my little piddle.:}

Shala Gashle.

[Flutterbug]

Hey Jaco

It would be nice to arrange a nice Toy Toy and halt all ZS flights for a month or so in West or East Africa, and see how quick the operators respond to this new trick!!

We all work, through our respective aviation companies, for multi Billion Dollar institutions, governments, etc. Do they really know that we get paid such measly Salaries, you yourself should know that the main complaints from any pilot on contract is firstly salaries and secondly, living conditions, which can range from a ships container in the desert (I've heard) To Lush luxury houses with all the trinkets not even our homes in Sa posess, however the salaries, the bucks that we take home to our wifes and children or our extended families is what makes the difference. Our children grow up without us just so we can feed them and put clothes on them!!

If we could reach the big boys that pay for all of this and negotiate with them to bring our aviation companies up to par with the "global" salary scale then we might get one step up instead of two steps back. I also want to buy myself a new beemer.

If we could convince these "Big Boys", that in the end it is not our Aviation companies that do the work, it is us, the Pilots that do the work, remember they are not making money out of us, they are using us to give them a service, and if our morale is low, then our service tends to take a downward plunge, and in some cases we could be so depressed about the money issue that it actually becomes dangerous for us to fly these aircraft, thus endangering the "big boys" and the people we are flying around for them. I'm sure that a good investigation from them will prove that we are grossly underpaid.

I believe that a good salary in Africa should be $5000 to $6000 flying anything up to 5700kg. Dammit we are Professionals and got to where we are through great pain and it's time we get rewarded for all our suffering.

But Face it it is still the greatest job on this here planet

"When you are in your office, the worst possible thing that can happen is you can drop your pencil, way up there a whole lot worse things can happen, however the rewards are much greater."

-Richard Bach-

Lets get together and do something as people who love what we are doing, without being screwed for it!!

-Aginnintonnixadaykeepsadoctaaway

[V1 Rotate]

Well said Flutterbug!

I believe that the air transport resession has bottomed out. An awful lot of carriers are starting to hire now.
Take Qatar, they have just purchased 32 new Airbuses they are one of the increasing number of employers recruiting right now.
US flights are getting fuller by the day!

What we must all do is stick to our guns and demand good salaries and conditions. Real dollars and no containers!
And keep everything crossed that we don't get another terror attack.

JJ Regarding the validations:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FORSRG1118.pdf

This is the most acurate and up to date info that I can find in the CAA web page regarding validations of foreign licenses.

Anyone who can actually get through this to the point where they will actually be able to fly "G-REG" for hire with a validated SA license today is a better man than me!

Carefuly read the guidance page at the bottom! I quote:

" A certificate of validation will not be issued where a person holding an ICAO contracting state licence is seeking regular employment as flight crew of UK registered aircraft"

V1

[Sir Cumference]

Aviation is the strangest industry! It is so small, mention a name of an individual in a regional context, and often in a global context as well, and you are likely to either know the person or something about him/her. Friends? Not necessarily as is discussed earlier in this thread. The back stabbing that goes on is quite horrendous. Also, I am sure that each and every one of us has attended a post accident discussion where the victim is slated for numerous valid and mostly unfounded 'crimes' that could have only resulted in the accident itself. "Got what he/she deserved!" "Saw it coming!" etc. With friends like these... ?

On the issue of salaries, the industry (Especially contracting) has become so cutthroat that there is very little room for increases as far as salaries are concerned. In order to be competitive, bids are cut, aircraft still have to be paid for, banks do not take late payments kindly, so as bids are cut, the only areas of savings are in salaries or maintenance. Both with a direct negative effect on safety.

I know of companies who have been approached by new pilots who have offered to work for nothing. Also, young guys whose fathers have offered to pay the salary of their offspring in order to give him a start. It is correct to turn these offers away as they damage the whole structure for the rest of us. I remember at a stage when a whole lot of ex-Zimbabweans came down South and flooded the industry, to the detriment of us all. In particular the helicopter salaries were hardest hit and the damage took years to repair. They were desperate times for those guys.

The reality of the situation is that you are not going to stop it, not the offers to work for nothing nor the raping of the individuals who place their skills and butts on the line to earn the best salary they can by unscrupulous operators who will use any excuse in the book. Times are hard and it is during this kind of situation that the worst comes out of an individual!

[ultralite]

Guess enough has been said about this issue. All that I can add is that I believe aviation services have become grossly undervalued in the African relief market. It has been openly admitted (by an aid agency officer) that fairly little consideration is given to the service rendered and aircraft provided by aviation companies. THEY TAKE THE LOWEST BID. End of story.

Now, the real problems start with certain international aviation companies receiving government grants on the basis of acquiring contracts. They manage to quote ridiculous rates and no other straight-quoting companies can compete. So I feel for the operators involved in this game as well.

I have had to take a salary knock on more than one occasion. Boss called and said they need to get in with a lower price to keep the contract. What could I say? I knew he was being genuine and not just trying to break a greater margin for himself. Is it better to have work, earning less, or say no to the job on principle and the company not get the contract?

:hmm:

[JJflyer]

Sir Cumference

There are friends and "Friends". Those friends that I have made in this industry are few and spread all over the world. However these guys I can trust to help me when in need and vice versa. A good friend is one that you might not see for several years and when you do meet, it's like it was a few hours since you last met.

On the other hand these so called "Friends" are the type of person who will sit with you, talk, drink, laugh and then turn around and screw you.
There are guys like that all over the world. Small flight departments seem to suffer from this disease more than big ones. Or perhaps in bigger companies one is reduced to a number and enjoy relative anonymity.

A company I was flying for had a DO that was especially ruthless. He would try his best to catch you with anything he could. He had snitches within the pilots and would know in a matter of hours what was said and by who as well as when and where did it happen and who where present. Didn't take us long to learn to keep our mouths shut around certain pilots.

All for now

JJ

[Skaz]

JJflyer boy oh boy are you ever right. I cannot agree with you more. I have a few friends that I made at airschool and we will most probably stay friends or a very long time.....cause we are not working for the same company, or even in the same country for that matter.

I have learnt a number of very hard and sobering lessons in the past few years. One of which was this week only.....a 'friend' that I would have trusted with my life, gave me the hardest, coldest lesson in betrayel that I have ever had. And in this industry, in a fairly 'small' company, I have had 'friends' turn out to be major 'maatjie- naaiers' before.

Getting ahead and looking out for 'number 1', is a survival technique, but unfortunately some people loose all integrity and apparently any compunction and self-respect in the process.

To my friends, I shall be a friend for life. After years apart, its like you said, we act like we last saw each other 30 min ago.

But, burn me once, and youll never get the chance again.:suspect:

[Tango24]

Pay PEANUTS......and you'll get monkeys!

After the amount of money spent on getting into this career, some having funds available others working their way through from one hour to the next......I think it's disgraceful what some peolpe are willing do/take, to get the job.

But we've all been there at some point. DESPERATE! Not that that condones the behaviour of some of the fellow PROFESSIONAL pilots.

What a great thread, it will give us all some sort of perspective on the industry at present.

Salaries in Bots range from R6,500 to R 12,000. At the "little" charter companies.
Chief Pilots will usually be higher.



:ok:

[Jacobest]

If there is one thing that I am glad about, by starting this thread, it has become apparent, that a lot of us feel the same way about the way we are being treated. We all have lived in that Container for peanuts, we all have been stabbed in the back by “friends” and we all have seen the “juniors” taking on jobs for the sake of building hours.
I just hope that all those “juniors” will realise that someday they will also be “seniors” and that they will realise by selling themselves short, they hurt themselves in the long run. YES, we all need to start somewhere to build hours and we are desperate, so we will try anything to get hours.

So this is for all those guys starting out. When I started out I used to do a lot of skydiving flying to build hours. It worked for me, so why not for you. By doing that I build my hours without stepping on “seniors” toes. There is also Crop Spraying, Safety pilot, Tug pilot and certain companies that specialise in hiring young guys with low hours. The problem is finding out about these companies. To give you an example, I was flying skydivers in Cape Town looking for more permanent work, thinking that if I do not have at least a thousand hours, I would not get anywhere. Then when I moved to Jo-Burg I was very pissed off when I put my CV in with a company called Streamline, only to be told that I was over qualified. It turns out that they only wanted low time pilots to fly for them. So yes, as hard as it sounds, there is always a gap for the low time “junior”.
Just the other day I heard about a pilot that got a job on a Metroliner recently with only 200 hours and a com. I know, it sounds like a dream, but it does happen. The question is, how do these guys does it?
Here is a tip, sell yourself to the aviation community. If they don’t know about you, how can they hire you?
And when you really feel like you have done enough, do that extra bit more. But remember, never, NEVER EVER sell yourself too cheap. When you start out and you think that it will help you to undercut your fellow pilot, remember this, three years down the line when you are a “senior” and you don’t understand why you cant get the salary you deserve, think about how all the “juniors” are undercutting you out of your job.
Another tip to all those new pilots walking around. The going rate in Lanseria for Piston and turbo prop pilots are R1.30/km and R130.00 SNT a day. And that means R130.00 Day, R130.00 Night and R130.00 day.
Use these guidelines for all our benefits. To all the old pilots at Lanseria, Help the young guys; tell them the rate of the day. By doing this, you will be helping yourself.

So I plead with all the pilots again, give me the info on salaries that you think is fair so that we can put together a Guideline for the “junior” pilots so that they will know what to charge for being a professional, respected pilot. So, once again, my e-mail address is [email protected] Send me YOUR guidelines so that we can help those who come after us.

Good luck to all and watch those stab wounds
:ok:

[Chenzo]

Hey Guys

Great topic, and I'm sure alot of us have pondered this idea at least once in thier journey through this volitile industry.

Before I start, feel free to correct me on some of my idea's or add where you see fit! (I'm still relatively new to this industry, but have lived vicariously through some high time friends who have been dragged around like a dirty mop to get jobs that barely pay enough to support a small kitten)

I think there are alot of variables that go into this "Salary Guildline" and I'm not too sure that it would be all that attainable.

My first concern is quite obvious to me, and perhaps I've missed something in this thread (I'm a skim reader). Different parts of the world have very different economies, and life stlyes. I don't think it's correct to compare a wage of a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in Johannesburg ,South Africa, to a 2nd year 1900 Capt living in New York (I'm using 2 extremes to prove my point).

Lets say that both the S.A. and U.S. Capt makes 3000US$. Anyone who has lived in either of these cities, or knows anything about them will know that an S.A. operator will have a hard time paying a pilot $3000US, and if he/she could, the pilot would live like a king(maids, nice car, the whole 9 yards). The pilot living in New York, will live in a studio, drive a 1986 Tercel, and eat mcdonalds everyday. I understand too, that the guy in New York will have the amenities that Johannesburg doesn't but I think I've made my point.

One more little angle:

Who knows how much the company makes, and what their budgets are for pilots. What if they are flying cargo and making tonnes of cash, and the other company is flying pax... The cargo company "should" make alot more money (should the pilot get compensated?). Should the struggling company pay a 1900 Capt 3000US$ to conform to this guidline with the knowledge that he'll lose his business because he can't afford to pay the pilot this wage? Then when he drops the wage to $2000US, and a pilot takes it, will the pilot be black listed?

I don't know if making an "INTERNATIONAL salary guildline" would be advisable looking at it from this angle. Perhaps we, as pilots might want to start small, and simple if there is such a thing?

I'll leave my other points for another time, as I've already written a short novel on this one topic.

(sorry for for making this complicated, but the issue truely is, and if any of you can simplify this, I'll recommend the next Nobel Prize be in your name!)


As frusterated as you guys are :ugh:

Chenzo

[JJflyer]

Chenzo.

I agree with you 100%. A pilot making 3000 a month in Johannesburg lives very well indeed and a pilot in New York or any big city in US of A with 3000 a month, well he just lives.

Where I slightly disagree with you si your comparison about Johannesburg to New York. Johannesburg and Pretoria have al the amenities of a large US city and all of those of large European cities. Once could say that you have best of both continents.

Selling one cheap is counterproductive in the long run. But people do it. Been there done that as well.
My first "airline' job in US flying a city to small tourist town shuttle. This was done as non-sched ops, but still left about the same time. This way they could legally fly us 1400 hours a year under pt135. We had weeks and weeks without a single day off...
Job paid about 700$ a month. How could I live with that? I could more when you flew a lot, early average came to that! being treated like crap by the company provided for a real mess.
As a result people would just leave without any notice. One morning they where just not in town anymore.

Some companies insist on paying it's people late. Even if the company has no financial problems. Having experienced this firsthand I have started to think that it is some kind of a control issue. If one is owed 2 months salary or more a pilot is more reluctant to walk away from the money and stick around.
Then come the lies... Yes everything will be paid on Friday, conveniently so that no questions will be asked before Monday. There allways seemed to be an explanation why money was not transferred on time.

Alll for now

JJ

[AfricanSkies]

Bois!

Its market forces at wek! Supply and demand. More supply than demand at the present time.

The low time guys, sure they will take work for nothing, because they feel they HAVE TO, otherwise they don't get a start. Sh1t situation, but its the one they find themselves in.

The rest of us, well, there's always someone else willing and able and available who wants your job.

We live in tough times in the aviation sector.

If you REALLLY want to stick together, one way to ensure better pay in the years ahead would be for all of us to agree to stop instructing. Then demand would outstrip supply, and the salaries would go up accordingly.

There's been a jump in the number of schools around the country, and as per the last edition of Airnews, there's been a jump in the number of student pilots too - so, guess what? Worse times ahead, bois.

The good news is that the Rand is weakening again and I expect to see R8 to the $ back soon in a Rennies near you. This will mean more profit for the operator and being the good-hearted samaritans that they are, they'll surely pass this windfall onto you, the poor struggling pirate, i mean pilot.

Its no use bleating about salaries unless you can do something about it, and as long as there's someone willing to work for less than you, you're on thin ice. And there'll always be someone willing to work for less than you as long as there are more jobs than pilots.

Pilotsalary = sqrt // salaryreqd / (Pilotsavail - 1)


:(

One thing which would change things is if our CAA and the JAA people were to do some rubbing the old palms with silver and come to an agreement - that'll reduce the pilot population of Southern Africa somewhat...

[I. M. Esperto]

I came across an interesting note on Zimbawe. The largest note printed is $500, and it won't buy a beer.

A roll of toilet paper with 72 sections cost $1,000. If you use $10 notes to wiper yer awrse, you save $280.

[JJflyer]

Employer offers a salary of 5000$... First question should be "Zim Dollars or US Dollars?"
I actually had one comedian try to offer me Zim Dollars... What a funny man.:mad:

JurassicJetFlyer

[Skaz]

Jacobest Avcrew.com has a Salary Survey of the pilots in USA . If you participated you got a copy for free, if not you have to pay.
Makes for interesting reading though.

[Cardinal Puff]

R1.30/km is OK for turbine and light piston twins but a DC3 at 200km/hr stuck in the snot with no autopilot and trying to keep those old donkeys happy is no picnic.

Compare that to the BE200 driver at FL250 and 450km/hr, pressurised and autopilot engaged with nothing to do but eat lunch and talk kak. The bucks you make for working yourself to a standstill are a joke.

At least we can feel superior to the rest of you okes, though........

[maxrated]

Great thread !

Getting back to Jacobest's initial idea of somehow regulating contract pilots salaries , I feel that this is impossible to do on a broader scale as the contract aviation job market falls within the global freemarket economic system. Any attempt to regulate this is communist/socialist in its intent, and we all know how well those systems work or dont work.
From a financial point of view, it does not make economic sense for any operator to pay a pilot more than what the market requires. This is the most basic and natural of economic principles, the law of supply and demand.
Over supply of pilots + low supply of jobs = price of pilots comes down.

No sane bussiness man would pay any employee $3000 a month when someone equally qualified will happily do the same job for $2000 as this would erode any bussiness's competeive edge.

Look at what happend to the Swiss company in Algeria, the crews were the some of the highest paid in the aviation contract market in Africa and, captains were on $5000 + per month , on and off contract, then the South African contract company's came onto the scene and climbed into the market because the SA pilots will fly the same aircraft for $3000 per month which made their companies more competitive and they won the tenders as a result. I wonder how long it will take before some other companies, Russian or Chinese or something , pull into the scene and start undercutting the SA guys and flying for $1500 per month.

Something that I think should concern the contract pilots alot more is the the amount of operators in Africa who actually screw their pilots over and dont pay them at all or dont come up with the promised money when it comes to pay their pilots.
A certain aircraft owner (of ZS LTE a beech 200) actually managed to get a few of his pilots to operate his plane for quite a few months in Algeria without actually paying them their salaries, I beleive this aircraft was recently "crewless" in Bamako, and the owner was looking for pilots to work for him.

Would the moderators allow a "Dodgey Operator Blacklist" to be published on the prune giving details of these ethically challenged individuals or company's to forewarn other pilots ?

[JJflyer]

A DOB would be just great...

Next we need to figure out what would put a company on that list.

- Salary late consistently or short
- Disrespecting terms of contract

These are easy to prove too.

JJ

[Vortex Thing]

Simple you could use the FTC of Africa matching scale.

If they have any of the business acumen, ablilites, administration, lack of professionalism or sheer risk to life and limb of FTC then they should definately be on the blacklist.

If they are better than FTC then they could be elevated to scum and if they actually pay thier staff and don't put them in sitautions where they are likely to die then they could be called kinda okay companies :)

If they are like SAA, Quantas, BA then they go top of the list.

Who wants to start off by placing Rossair ?

[George Tower]

Hi guys

Very interesting reading this thread. I came across this site which deals largely with the UK, EU and US operators - www.ppjn.com

Perhaps the concept could be extended to African operators.

Cheers

GT

[Skaz]

great idea, but dont think youll be able to do it on this forum,

might have to start your own site and have pilots rate listed companies

award points for stuff like late payment, training - does co pay or do you, do you pay for ratings, do you pay for flighttests, forced to fly when you dont wanna, flight & duty transgressions etc etc

the more points - the lower on the scale - like golf:}

[4granted]

Just saw this add for MD 83 pilots and this is what they are offering:


$=USD per MONTH

$6000 Base
$1500 Overtime Guarantee/Month

$0750 Per Diem
$0500 Living Allowance (YYZ or YUL)
$0100 Insurance
$0350 Base Transportation Allowance
$0200 Duty Expense Buffer

$9400 TOTAL

I sh1t U not. Go check it ut for your self

@

http://www.flitejobs.com/users/jobs_info.php?jid=1699&p=0&j_c=&j_r=&j_t=&sid=&language=1&return=&sid=8045104b8e526956999258e4adb36c3f&language=1&return=

if that link works..
Well good luck anyway
4G:hmm:

[GTJDS]

Fly for the love of it not for money much less stressful.
I do and the money comes on its own.:ok:

[maxrated]

One should find a job that you love and that at least pays what your employer promised, specifically in the African contract pilot enviroment.

I cant think of anyone that I know who would volenteer to live in Liberia/ The Congo/ The Sudan/ The Sahara etc, simply for the love of flying. There must be some sort of financial reward for putting up with living in those type of enviroments for any extended period of time.

Someone told me that the similarities between an African prostitute and an African contract pilot is that both do it for the money, they seem to enjoy their work and every client tries to screw them at the first opportunity.

The only difference between them is that the prostitute doesn't keep a logbook.

As a contact pilot , I'm ok with that concept. :=

[contraxdog]

Here goes my couple a cents worth.
When I started flying contracts 9 years ago, a Captain on a B200 got $8000/month. A F/O got $4000/Month. The Dollar was going for between R3.89 and R4.20

Six years ago a Captain earned R 5500/month on a B200. A F/O earned R3800/month. And the Dollar bought you R 4.68.

Two years ago for $4500/month doing the same work and a F/O got $2000 and the Dollar bought R13.60 (Lucky us!)

Captains earn $4000 an rated F/O's can expect $2200-$2500/month now the Dollar doesnt manage to buy R7.00!
I have never bought an airline ticket to go and work, or come home.(That is a trick Stickerlink learned from TossAir.)

The problem is as follows:
1.Most Contracts go out on tender. That means the Operator that can give the cheapest service stands the best chance to get the contract.
2.The client thinks if he gets the same service for less money.
That will mean the best service will be free one.
(The UN goes according to this principle!)
3. All the operators Quote on the same Contracts on the same Aircraft owned by the same Owners.( The Aircraft cost the same)
4. That means that the only way they can get in cheaper than someone else is by schkimping on the maintainance and the crew.
5.Most of the important maintainance is mandatory.( If the snag-list gets long they make money!)
6. That leaves the crew to be screwed. Me and you! If they dont, a contract will cost them money.

Think your company isnt making money off your back, think again. Ex.The UN pays your company $225/day for every crewmember on station! That is $6700/month?!
That gives them +/-$20500/month(Capt, F/O, Eng/Manager) per crew.
You know what they pay you, work out what they make off you, and not off the contract!
Incidently the pilots that still think they are here to do comunity service while their boss gets rich WAKE UP HE IS SCREWING YOU!!!
The culprit is not the pilot that will work for food its the operator that makes his buck of his back!

[Jacobest]

I was just browsing the internet and was looking at www.flitejobs.com To my disgust I saw two "job" postings there posted today on 08/10/03. Both from a company called South Sky and both nothing more than pure exploitation of low time pilots. I urge you to go and read it (if you are not a member, register for free) I would also urge you to sak the webmaster to have those "jobs" removed like I have.

[Jacobest]

Hi Guys
Since no one ever bothered to try and stand together about salaries, I thought I would give you this little update.

When I was working last in Malabo (May 2003) I was getting $4750.00 for a 4week stint (if I remember right the rand was around the 10 to the dollar mark)

All of us working there then was going to go to the company and "demand better wages" since the company was being paid by the customer $10000.00 a month for pilot salaries.

But then of course I was the only unfortunate "idiot" that actually did it while the other pilot's all kept quiet.

WELL, now those same pilots are getting plus minus $2600.00 for a 6 week stint (with the rand being at about 6.3 to the dollar)
And I bet you the operator is now getting $11000.00 pm for the pilots from the customer.

Isn’t life sweet, here I am getting double what I used to get, upgraded myself from flying mediums to heavy's, and I never sold myself short. On top of it all, I have permanent employment.

Just thought I would leave this info with all those guys who said that if they don't fly for peanuts, someone else will.

Cheers :ok:

[126.9]

I'm not sure that I get exactly what your point is regarding the advertising of positions for crews and salaries etc, but I am the owner of that website and if you have a problem with any of the ad's placed there, you are more than welcome to contact me and make a complaint. Any skullduggery or nonsense ad's will be removed provided that is what they are. I can assure you however that, I personally check all ad's and also contact most of the advertisers to ensure that there is no wool being pulled over.

Complaints or other comments, can be forwarded to me HERE ([email protected]) or you can go directly through the CONTACT US (http://www.flitejobs.com/main/contact.php) page on the site. Being a pilot myself you can rest assured that I too hate bulls:mad:t job advertising!

[Jacobest]

126.9
Thanks for the response and give me this opportunity to respond on this open forum.

On closer inspection of the mentioned topic you refer to, you will notice that it was placed more than 6 months ago. Incidentally, that same day I posted that topic I DID e-mail you about it, yet I received no reply, until know.

When I joined flitejobs originally (of which I am no longer a member) it was free of charge. Now you CHARGE pilots to view jobs at your site: 1 month for US$12.95
3 months for US$31.95
6 months for US$54.95
12 months for US$79.95

That in itself is probably the biggest exploitation of pilots that you can get (Ag nee man sies, hoe slaap jy in die aande) in no other work market do employment agencies charge job seekers to look for work. It is the other way around. Any company who wishes to place a job on your site should be charged, NOT THE PILOTS!!!!!

If you also note on the topic, I mention the company and the date which the ad was placed, so why you are confused can only be an educated guess. I am sure that it is no longer there.

I am glad to see that you too hate b:mad: it jobs though and I would encourage you to make your site free for pilots again and to recoup your costs for running the site with the companies wanting to place job ads there. Years ago, I too started a site like yours trying to HELP pilots. I know therefore the cost and effort involved in running such a show. In fact, if you need help to run it, ask me, I will be more than willing to give some of my time free of charge to help you.
:confused:

[126.9]

First, I will answer your posting item for item, and then I will take up your challenge.

All posted jobs on my site expire after a period of time so as not to give a false impression of what work is available. That is more than other job sites do...

"Exploitation" as a word is only ever used by those not spending their own money to run such a site. If you have run such a site, you would know that I am STILL paying into this site.

My confusion comes from the fact that I have posted thousands of aviation jobs which expire (are deleted automatically by the site) once they are no longer valid.

I will now undertake to once again, make FliteJobs (http://www.flitejobs.com) a FREE to all users website! It was my intention in the first place. However, I will do it ONLY with your FREE involvement and input!

Presently, I am redesigning the entire website and I hope to have the new site online within 12 weeks. That new site will be FREE if you help me make it so!!!? In fact; why don't you start the "Countdown to FREEDOM" thread here on the Africa Forum, and I shall post on it weekly?

It is also possible that I did not answer your email. I reply to around 400 out of the 1800 emails I receive daily.

Regards

Him With The Missing Teeth

:}

[Jacobest]

So moet n bek sonder tande mos praat
I am always up for the challenge
e-mail me at [email protected] to tell me what you need or how I can help:ok:

126.9 is going free. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Peter Davidson]

Someone mentioned setting up an african version of ppjn.com

I know the guy that runs it and I'm sure he'd be very happy to add your African operators. There's already an African section, it's just empty at the moment! :D

If you go to the african turboprop or jet regional page and click on "submit new operator" on the right hand side you'll be taken to the submission form.

Cheers,


Peter