friends, salaries and aviation
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friends, salaries and aviation
After reading what was said at Rude operations on 126.9, it made me start to think about how two pilots can be friends in aviation (especially in South Africa). You see, there are so many pilots looking for work that it seems "pilots" will do anything to get a job now a day. They will undercut their fellow "friends" just to get that job. Recently I was offered a job in Algeria to fly a King Air 200. The contractor wanted to offer me $2000.00 to fly there, living in a compound and getting an armed escort to the airport. The $2000.00 included SNT plus the cost of my ticket to get there every time. Needles to say, that left me with about $900.00 to put in my pocket. I was shocked to find out later that another pilot took the same job for $1000.00. His reason, he needed the job.
As long as there are "friends out there like that, who needs enemies. Now I see the latest trend is to bad mouth fellow pilots. The more dirt you can disclose to other people about fellow aviators, the better your chances are of getting ahead. Or so it seems.
We, as pilots, need one another and we need to stand together. By doing that we will get the salaries and the respect we deserve. Without it, charter companies will continue to take advantage of the pilots because they know; there will always be someone who is willing to take the job for cheaper.
Guys, we are professionals and we should treat each other that way. There was an old saying that "what happens on contract, stays on contract". Respect each other and things will go a lot better.
Having said that, my first recommendation is that this forum be used to decide what a fair salary is for going on contract. It will help to make things better for us, THE PILOTS. Once a salary gets decided on, it should be stuck to, and if guys undercut, they should be dealt with. It sounds harsh, but you will be surprised what happens when people stand together.
So my suggestion is, give a place and an average salary you think is fair for flying in that area.
My first one is. Malabo Captain $4500 - $5000.00 per month.
This area of West Africa is becoming a very popular place for oil companies. It also gives rise to civil unrest as have been shown in Sao Tome recently. Lets not beat around the bush. Flying in Africa is not safe.
Well guys, use it or don't
I wish you all the best without all the backstabbing
As long as there are "friends out there like that, who needs enemies. Now I see the latest trend is to bad mouth fellow pilots. The more dirt you can disclose to other people about fellow aviators, the better your chances are of getting ahead. Or so it seems.
We, as pilots, need one another and we need to stand together. By doing that we will get the salaries and the respect we deserve. Without it, charter companies will continue to take advantage of the pilots because they know; there will always be someone who is willing to take the job for cheaper.
Guys, we are professionals and we should treat each other that way. There was an old saying that "what happens on contract, stays on contract". Respect each other and things will go a lot better.
Having said that, my first recommendation is that this forum be used to decide what a fair salary is for going on contract. It will help to make things better for us, THE PILOTS. Once a salary gets decided on, it should be stuck to, and if guys undercut, they should be dealt with. It sounds harsh, but you will be surprised what happens when people stand together.
So my suggestion is, give a place and an average salary you think is fair for flying in that area.
My first one is. Malabo Captain $4500 - $5000.00 per month.
This area of West Africa is becoming a very popular place for oil companies. It also gives rise to civil unrest as have been shown in Sao Tome recently. Lets not beat around the bush. Flying in Africa is not safe.
Well guys, use it or don't
I wish you all the best without all the backstabbing
ZbV
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Agreed salaries
Jacobest.
If all of us pilots would agree on what salaries needed to be paid by geographical location, equipment flown and previous experience that would be just great.
There would probably be a possibility to set some guidelines, but how to make sure that people go by these guidelines. International independent piltos association of some kind? Would probably work.
There will allways be pilots that come from third world countries and areas where say 2000 USD a month is equivalent to 6 months salary home or even more.
I had a particular experience with this some years back where pilots from a embargoed Middle Eastern country took over all positions.
Needless to say that all of us high pay guys eventually left as company used tactic that made it clear that we where not wanted anymore. The backstabbing you mentioned was beyond any I have ever seen before. One of the "New" and "Affordable" pilots was in the office all the time telling stories to management as to how bad we where... Looked like they had office shifts
There are various reasons why people choose to fly airplanes. Me for one like flying, money is secondary. But then one has to make a living and pay for the bread on the table. I can understand why a 200 hour pilot would accept a position flying for 1000 a month or even less. Afterall hours are needed to proceed to the next level.
Kids home, no job. A dilemma. Someone offers a position flying for 1000 a month. What to do?
Only advice I can give is not to sell yourself too cheap.
Cheers
JJ
If all of us pilots would agree on what salaries needed to be paid by geographical location, equipment flown and previous experience that would be just great.
There would probably be a possibility to set some guidelines, but how to make sure that people go by these guidelines. International independent piltos association of some kind? Would probably work.
There will allways be pilots that come from third world countries and areas where say 2000 USD a month is equivalent to 6 months salary home or even more.
I had a particular experience with this some years back where pilots from a embargoed Middle Eastern country took over all positions.
Needless to say that all of us high pay guys eventually left as company used tactic that made it clear that we where not wanted anymore. The backstabbing you mentioned was beyond any I have ever seen before. One of the "New" and "Affordable" pilots was in the office all the time telling stories to management as to how bad we where... Looked like they had office shifts
There are various reasons why people choose to fly airplanes. Me for one like flying, money is secondary. But then one has to make a living and pay for the bread on the table. I can understand why a 200 hour pilot would accept a position flying for 1000 a month or even less. Afterall hours are needed to proceed to the next level.
Kids home, no job. A dilemma. Someone offers a position flying for 1000 a month. What to do?
Only advice I can give is not to sell yourself too cheap.
Cheers
JJ
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Hello JJ
Thanks for the suggestions and, yes, it is like you say in your opening “If all of us pilots would agree”.
It seems to be that that is where the problem lies. I feel a guideline is necessary because when I started working contracts, I did not know what the average salary should be, so whatever the contractor threw at me, I accepted to be the norm and took it, Because like we all know, contractors are not there to Scr*w us over.
Their first and only obligation is to the pilots. RIGHT?
If I can get enough general guidelines as to what to charge, when to charge it, I will gladly take all that info and at my own expense, compile a PILOTS SALARY GUIDELINE booklet and distribute it at all the major pilot shops in South Africa.
But to do that I need info from the PILOTS, you guys. And this includes Contacts and Charters at home (S.A.) If guys are to scared to do it here they can e-mail me on [email protected]
As to enforcing these guidelines, NOT AT ALL. That is what they will be. I know that I said pilots should be dealt with if they don’t stick to the guidelines, but that is wrong. However, the aviation community is small in South Africa, so if a guy wants give himself a bad name, go ahead, somewhere it will catch up to him.
As you also said, I also like flying. Otherwise I would not be doing it. But sitting in a CB at night struggling to get to your destination and risking your life while someone else benefits hugely from your hard work and then only pays you a quarter of what you are supposed to get, is very unfair. Why is it that when things go “BAD” pilots salaries are the first to be cut. If Pick n’ Pay has a special on produce, does that mean their staff gets less money?
So why do we have to stand for that. It gets me when I fly for $4000.00 a month without any benefits whatsoever, only to find out later that my contractor is getting $10 000.00 a month for my services he is selling out to companies. So he now gets to take $6000.00 of my earnings and put it in his pocket?
Maybe I’m venting a bit, but it is time that these “little things” get out there so that people can see what is really happening.
At his stage I can only repeat what you said: “NEVER SELL YOURSELF TOO CHEAP”
Cheers and watch out for all those stab wounds in the back.
Thanks for the suggestions and, yes, it is like you say in your opening “If all of us pilots would agree”.
It seems to be that that is where the problem lies. I feel a guideline is necessary because when I started working contracts, I did not know what the average salary should be, so whatever the contractor threw at me, I accepted to be the norm and took it, Because like we all know, contractors are not there to Scr*w us over.
Their first and only obligation is to the pilots. RIGHT?
If I can get enough general guidelines as to what to charge, when to charge it, I will gladly take all that info and at my own expense, compile a PILOTS SALARY GUIDELINE booklet and distribute it at all the major pilot shops in South Africa.
But to do that I need info from the PILOTS, you guys. And this includes Contacts and Charters at home (S.A.) If guys are to scared to do it here they can e-mail me on [email protected]
As to enforcing these guidelines, NOT AT ALL. That is what they will be. I know that I said pilots should be dealt with if they don’t stick to the guidelines, but that is wrong. However, the aviation community is small in South Africa, so if a guy wants give himself a bad name, go ahead, somewhere it will catch up to him.
As you also said, I also like flying. Otherwise I would not be doing it. But sitting in a CB at night struggling to get to your destination and risking your life while someone else benefits hugely from your hard work and then only pays you a quarter of what you are supposed to get, is very unfair. Why is it that when things go “BAD” pilots salaries are the first to be cut. If Pick n’ Pay has a special on produce, does that mean their staff gets less money?
So why do we have to stand for that. It gets me when I fly for $4000.00 a month without any benefits whatsoever, only to find out later that my contractor is getting $10 000.00 a month for my services he is selling out to companies. So he now gets to take $6000.00 of my earnings and put it in his pocket?
Maybe I’m venting a bit, but it is time that these “little things” get out there so that people can see what is really happening.
At his stage I can only repeat what you said: “NEVER SELL YOURSELF TOO CHEAP”
Cheers and watch out for all those stab wounds in the back.
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Good Idea...
Jaco
Good idea for the guide lines. This topic has been on everybodys tongues for quite awhile now. I dont know if things like two crew has had an effect on the situation or what, but I remember being paid 5K + to fly single crew contract. Now you're lucky if you get 3500 for a 2 crew ops as a Captain??!
The operators also have been using the fluctuating exchange rates to cut the salaries, yet when the Rond strengthend, did the salaries go up? No way!
I flew the 200 contract in Algeria and was paid 4 straight. My co pilot got command( even though not meeting the requirements) at a much lower $ rate and does longer tours therefore once again screwing the system(we were only allowed to be there for 5 weeks at a time and now they are doing 3 month rotations??) Dont think its the same crowd but....
Ill back you on this issue all the way.
4g
Good idea for the guide lines. This topic has been on everybodys tongues for quite awhile now. I dont know if things like two crew has had an effect on the situation or what, but I remember being paid 5K + to fly single crew contract. Now you're lucky if you get 3500 for a 2 crew ops as a Captain??!
The operators also have been using the fluctuating exchange rates to cut the salaries, yet when the Rond strengthend, did the salaries go up? No way!
I flew the 200 contract in Algeria and was paid 4 straight. My co pilot got command( even though not meeting the requirements) at a much lower $ rate and does longer tours therefore once again screwing the system(we were only allowed to be there for 5 weeks at a time and now they are doing 3 month rotations??) Dont think its the same crowd but....
Ill back you on this issue all the way.
4g
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While I agree that, in an ideal world, it would help if pilots didn't undercut each other, these matters are all relative.
A salary for a Malabo captain of $4,500 - $5,000 might seem fair for a South African contract pilot, but is gross undercutting for a European pilot.
It is no coincidence that very little contract flying is done by European companies, and the United Nations predominantly use those from South Africa and Eastern Europe. Pitifully low salaries, when compared to those paid elsewhere in the world, are a major factor in arriving at the competitive tenders that these geographical areas manage.
A salary for a Malabo captain of $4,500 - $5,000 might seem fair for a South African contract pilot, but is gross undercutting for a European pilot.
It is no coincidence that very little contract flying is done by European companies, and the United Nations predominantly use those from South Africa and Eastern Europe. Pitifully low salaries, when compared to those paid elsewhere in the world, are a major factor in arriving at the competitive tenders that these geographical areas manage.
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Gerund
Thank you for that comment, cause that is exactly what I am trying to establish. Call it a worldwide salary scale if you will. The idea is to bring everybody on par.
Flying is, after all, a global game.
So why dont you let me know what you think a fair salary is for Malabo.
Thanks
Thank you for that comment, cause that is exactly what I am trying to establish. Call it a worldwide salary scale if you will. The idea is to bring everybody on par.
Flying is, after all, a global game.
So why dont you let me know what you think a fair salary is for Malabo.
Thanks
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Your thread caught my attention, I have no input over salaries but as a pilot who has been struggling with this industry for 15 odd years, I hate to say that is it not only the operaters who ruin it but people who do things like in the thread in the Middle East forum "Qatar Airways as a F/O" now that erks me.
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Stick to your guns and do not sell yourself too cheap. I have been around a lot of deadbeat and low pay operations and they always get what they deserve in the end. Operators beware: Hire the person who will do it the cheapest and you may end up paying more for damaged aircraft or worse.
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Preach on Brother Jaco. You and I had this discussion many a night over those cheap bottles of Brandy... 
And, you're still absolutely correct... Set the pay and keep it up... But, good luck not getting undercut. There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job...
Okay, fireproof suit on. Flame away all.....
BadAndy
(PS, got your email, but having trouble responding, your ISP is rejecting mail from the desert... Email me your number, hopefully I'll be down there in a month or so...)
And, you're still absolutely correct... Set the pay and keep it up... But, good luck not getting undercut. There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job...Okay, fireproof suit on. Flame away all.....
BadAndy
(PS, got your email, but having trouble responding, your ISP is rejecting mail from the desert... Email me your number, hopefully I'll be down there in a month or so...)
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Short Note (Eastern Block)
Great idea Jaco,
Here is Sierra Leone it is such a joke.
"Eastern Block" Captains flies for $1 500.00 .. stay between locals and get muthers every night.
Lost three on Fri when they they drunkenly "attacked" a Army Bedford in their mini bus.
Co jocks - $1k.
Sorry must buzz off.
Nice thread and great if people can work together !
Cheers,
Gunzzz
Here is Sierra Leone it is such a joke.
"Eastern Block" Captains flies for $1 500.00 .. stay between locals and get muthers every night.
Lost three on Fri when they they drunkenly "attacked" a Army Bedford in their mini bus.
Co jocks - $1k.
Sorry must buzz off.
Nice thread and great if people can work together !
Cheers,
Gunzzz
ZbV
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More on the same
Yip Gunns, you hit the spot on Easter European pilots salaries. For them these salaries are actually very good as they get it paid (Mostly) in hard currency. As for me. I could not work with that ad pay my monthly expenses in Europe.
I still think that there should be some work all pilots flying independently on contracts around the world could do together. Just a salary guide will not do it alone, but would help. As Bad Andy said
"There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job..."
I have to admit that when I looked for my first job, I had no info on what these positions should pay.
Personally I am not a union man as present unions do no good for me. Many would probably be willing to take my money , but should there be e problem of any kind, I am sure that I would get no help.
So far a contract pilot has been alone and at the mercy of their employers. Is it time to start to do something about it, or are pilots to spread out and from too different backrounds, both financial and ethnic, to agree on something globally?
JJ
I still think that there should be some work all pilots flying independently on contracts around the world could do together. Just a salary guide will not do it alone, but would help. As Bad Andy said
"There will always be the 500 hour guy that will whore him (or her) self out for that first job..."
I have to admit that when I looked for my first job, I had no info on what these positions should pay.
Personally I am not a union man as present unions do no good for me. Many would probably be willing to take my money , but should there be e problem of any kind, I am sure that I would get no help.
So far a contract pilot has been alone and at the mercy of their employers. Is it time to start to do something about it, or are pilots to spread out and from too different backrounds, both financial and ethnic, to agree on something globally?
JJ
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I was undercut by guys who were prepared to work for less than half what I had been getting on contract for nearly 3 years.
It is a pity that the SACAA seem to validate just about any type of license to go on contract in ZS airplanes.
We should realy set some kind of international standard for pilot rates and licensing and stick to them.
I for one had to come to the US ( and do a full US ATP ) to get what I wanted. I feel for the guys who cannot come overseas. There is absolutely no comparison with overseas salaries but the job is just the same, if anything it is much easier in Europe and the US.
I wonder what percentage of SA jobs are being done by foreign validations??
V1
Whilst on the subjct of salaries:
I can contribute that currently, in the USA, a Citation Captain can expect + - $500 per day + expenses; Citation F/O $250 - $400 per day + expenses.
Hawker Captain $800- $1000 per day; F/O $300 - $600 per day + expenses. Of course this is all subject to experience but these numbers are good ball park. In the right position you can expect to fly about 18 days per month.
When one is off there is so much to do here!!
V1
It is a pity that the SACAA seem to validate just about any type of license to go on contract in ZS airplanes.
We should realy set some kind of international standard for pilot rates and licensing and stick to them.
I for one had to come to the US ( and do a full US ATP ) to get what I wanted. I feel for the guys who cannot come overseas. There is absolutely no comparison with overseas salaries but the job is just the same, if anything it is much easier in Europe and the US.
I wonder what percentage of SA jobs are being done by foreign validations??
V1
Whilst on the subjct of salaries:
I can contribute that currently, in the USA, a Citation Captain can expect + - $500 per day + expenses; Citation F/O $250 - $400 per day + expenses.
Hawker Captain $800- $1000 per day; F/O $300 - $600 per day + expenses. Of course this is all subject to experience but these numbers are good ball park. In the right position you can expect to fly about 18 days per month.
When one is off there is so much to do here!!
V1
ZbV
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Salaries
Some salary Info
A contract F/O in Europe on B737, MD80 or A320 through a contract agency 5000 USD a month add per diems and expenses. Average 7000 USD a month.
Contract F/O salaries vary from 3500 to 8000 USD a month depending on how much flying and travelling is involved as well as who is the customer airline or agency.
First Officers generally should make about 75% of a Captains salary.
As an independent F/O 4 years ago on a private B737 I was paid 550 USD a day + all expenses like food, rental car, laundry etc paid by the company. Business class travel between base and home. Captain making 950 USD a day with same conditions.
A private B727 Captain based in Europe 8000 USD a month with 110 USD per diem when on the road. F/O and F/E 6300 USD a month with same per diem. (If you actually get paid)
Some operators seem to think it is OK not to pay their employees or their bills. This is another issue that would be good to tackle together rather than alone.
JJ
A contract F/O in Europe on B737, MD80 or A320 through a contract agency 5000 USD a month add per diems and expenses. Average 7000 USD a month.
Contract F/O salaries vary from 3500 to 8000 USD a month depending on how much flying and travelling is involved as well as who is the customer airline or agency.
First Officers generally should make about 75% of a Captains salary.
As an independent F/O 4 years ago on a private B737 I was paid 550 USD a day + all expenses like food, rental car, laundry etc paid by the company. Business class travel between base and home. Captain making 950 USD a day with same conditions.
A private B727 Captain based in Europe 8000 USD a month with 110 USD per diem when on the road. F/O and F/E 6300 USD a month with same per diem. (If you actually get paid)
Some operators seem to think it is OK not to pay their employees or their bills. This is another issue that would be good to tackle together rather than alone.
JJ
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Thanks for all the guys who have sent through some info already.
I was always under the impression that I was the only person who had this problem and, I thought it only happened in South Africa. So far two things have come from this. This problem seems to be a worldwide phenomenon. So maybe I should change it to a "Worldwide Pilot Salary Guideline".
Secondly, from what I see, not all operators are plying this "lets pay the minimum wage" game. So to the operators who do pay fair salaries, THANK YOU. Maybe some operators would like to comment on this thread about what they think. V1 Rotate did bring up a very valid point about the CAA. Validating foreign licenses left right and centre while there are guys at home struggling to find work. I think though that it is just not the CAA that does that, but a lot of other foreign Civil Aviation Authorities.
So the problem now is, how to protect the jobs in your own country. Because now, not only do you have to compete with your own peers, but also, you have to compete with foreigners.
But maybe that is a whole new thread. Thanks to the guys who have sent me e-mails as well, I respect the fact that you don’t want your name and details to appear here. Let me just say one thing, if you guys saw the e-mails I got, you will be shocked at the stories that have come through and the Company names. So-called reputable companies who are raping the industry. At least now I know where I will not be offering my services.
Keep on sending those salary advices and once again, watch out for those stab wounds. They do hurt.
Cheers
I was always under the impression that I was the only person who had this problem and, I thought it only happened in South Africa. So far two things have come from this. This problem seems to be a worldwide phenomenon. So maybe I should change it to a "Worldwide Pilot Salary Guideline".
Secondly, from what I see, not all operators are plying this "lets pay the minimum wage" game. So to the operators who do pay fair salaries, THANK YOU. Maybe some operators would like to comment on this thread about what they think. V1 Rotate did bring up a very valid point about the CAA. Validating foreign licenses left right and centre while there are guys at home struggling to find work. I think though that it is just not the CAA that does that, but a lot of other foreign Civil Aviation Authorities.
So the problem now is, how to protect the jobs in your own country. Because now, not only do you have to compete with your own peers, but also, you have to compete with foreigners.
But maybe that is a whole new thread. Thanks to the guys who have sent me e-mails as well, I respect the fact that you don’t want your name and details to appear here. Let me just say one thing, if you guys saw the e-mails I got, you will be shocked at the stories that have come through and the Company names. So-called reputable companies who are raping the industry. At least now I know where I will not be offering my services.
Keep on sending those salary advices and once again, watch out for those stab wounds. They do hurt.
Cheers
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Devil's Advocate here we go
Tell you what then. I'll promise not to use my South African Licence if you promise not to let anymore of your countrymen come over to UK and take jobs from us Brits.
Is this Xenophobia I see or just frustration. The facts are that there are unemployed pilots up the ying yang in the states, in OZ and all over Europe.
I thought SA was lovely but I really do not want to have to get a job 8000 miles from my friends and family. Unfortunately when all the doors are closed here and you been unemployed for a few months then of course if someone offered you a job for nothing except bread and water in Africa you'd take it, as would any African who could get a better job here.
You can't have a worldwide pay scale that would be like saying that the 16 year old from Soweto who works in McDonalds should get the same in Jo'burg as they would in London. Maybe in an ideal world they would but the facts are that petrol cost almost 5 times the price here and I pay $1800 USD a month for my mortagage alone that would probably buy a mansion in South Africa. Trust me I don't live in a mansion here.
So b4 bleating on at the wages being so poor check to see what the lower cost arilines and charters pay in UK.
Centerline Charter in Bristol are currently paying £10GBP per day to new charter pilots because they know that there are people who will work for that. It kinda makes $100USD attractive much less $1000USD.
At Easyjet on the other hand £2000pcm means that you take home about £14000pcm for a nontype rated new F/O.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should get that little but if you are getting $1000USD a month as a charter pilot and you don't like it do something else, there are plenty of people willing to step into your lucky ass shoes because at least you don't have to go to the unemployment office to get your money.
The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.
Is this Xenophobia I see or just frustration. The facts are that there are unemployed pilots up the ying yang in the states, in OZ and all over Europe.
I thought SA was lovely but I really do not want to have to get a job 8000 miles from my friends and family. Unfortunately when all the doors are closed here and you been unemployed for a few months then of course if someone offered you a job for nothing except bread and water in Africa you'd take it, as would any African who could get a better job here.
You can't have a worldwide pay scale that would be like saying that the 16 year old from Soweto who works in McDonalds should get the same in Jo'burg as they would in London. Maybe in an ideal world they would but the facts are that petrol cost almost 5 times the price here and I pay $1800 USD a month for my mortagage alone that would probably buy a mansion in South Africa. Trust me I don't live in a mansion here.
So b4 bleating on at the wages being so poor check to see what the lower cost arilines and charters pay in UK.
Centerline Charter in Bristol are currently paying £10GBP per day to new charter pilots because they know that there are people who will work for that. It kinda makes $100USD attractive much less $1000USD.
At Easyjet on the other hand £2000pcm means that you take home about £14000pcm for a nontype rated new F/O.
Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that we should get that little but if you are getting $1000USD a month as a charter pilot and you don't like it do something else, there are plenty of people willing to step into your lucky ass shoes because at least you don't have to go to the unemployment office to get your money.
The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.
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Vortex Thing
Not a problem, then just stop sending okes over here who come and do their licenses in South Africa because its cheaper. Maybe then you wont have as many SA licenses coming back to England for validations.
I agree with you that this is a problem and that is why I said, the problem maybe lies with the civil aviation authorities. Maybe they should have a look at what happens in their own countries before they start to issue all these validations. Lets face it, a lot of American and European pilots are pissed off at South Africans because they are taking all the jobs away by flying for less. Or maybe it’s the operators undercutting each other to get the jobs. How do they do it? By paying the pilots less. So if there was a guideline and if the pilots maybe knew what salaries should be, then maybe contractors would not be able to undercut each other any more, but then again, pilots like yourself might not see it this way.
I left my company because of exactly this reason. We were getting more and more contracts by undercutting European and American companies. I have been unemployed now for 4 months, struggling my arse off and yet, I am not willing to sell myself short by running for jobs that pay nothing.
What do you think would happen if Centerline Charter in Bristol could no longer find pilots who would be willing to fly for £10GBP per day? Maybe, just maybe, they would have to increase the salary offered. It is a chicken or egg scenario. Pilots just grab what they can because they know that if “I don’t take it, someone else will”
But if everybody started saying, “No thanks, not for me, maybe give me a little more” then companies might not take advantage of us Pilots any more.
“The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.” Great quote, but aviation also does not have the right to treat us like whores competing against each other for some scraps that fall off the table.
If you don’t like the idea of a worldwide salary guideline, how about a salary guideline in your area. Why is it that Airlines can get it right to pay there pilots according to a worldwide scale and not contract and charter pilots. Are we that stupid to accept whatever gets thrown at us?
Not a problem, then just stop sending okes over here who come and do their licenses in South Africa because its cheaper. Maybe then you wont have as many SA licenses coming back to England for validations.
I agree with you that this is a problem and that is why I said, the problem maybe lies with the civil aviation authorities. Maybe they should have a look at what happens in their own countries before they start to issue all these validations. Lets face it, a lot of American and European pilots are pissed off at South Africans because they are taking all the jobs away by flying for less. Or maybe it’s the operators undercutting each other to get the jobs. How do they do it? By paying the pilots less. So if there was a guideline and if the pilots maybe knew what salaries should be, then maybe contractors would not be able to undercut each other any more, but then again, pilots like yourself might not see it this way.
I left my company because of exactly this reason. We were getting more and more contracts by undercutting European and American companies. I have been unemployed now for 4 months, struggling my arse off and yet, I am not willing to sell myself short by running for jobs that pay nothing.
What do you think would happen if Centerline Charter in Bristol could no longer find pilots who would be willing to fly for £10GBP per day? Maybe, just maybe, they would have to increase the salary offered. It is a chicken or egg scenario. Pilots just grab what they can because they know that if “I don’t take it, someone else will”
But if everybody started saying, “No thanks, not for me, maybe give me a little more” then companies might not take advantage of us Pilots any more.
“The world does not owe us a living and nor does aviation.” Great quote, but aviation also does not have the right to treat us like whores competing against each other for some scraps that fall off the table.
If you don’t like the idea of a worldwide salary guideline, how about a salary guideline in your area. Why is it that Airlines can get it right to pay there pilots according to a worldwide scale and not contract and charter pilots. Are we that stupid to accept whatever gets thrown at us?
Last edited by 4HolerPoler; 3rd Sep 2003 at 00:46.
ZbV
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Validations
One could argue the point of RSA CAA validating licenses left ad right. It is not an easy procedure for those involved.
I am all for free movement of labour. If there's a need of pilots with certain qualifications in one geographical area and over supply in another it should be possible to move about without too much hassle.
As a remined to those objecting non South Africans flying ZS registered aircraft on validations, I have to remind you that there are tens of South Africans flying in Europe, Australia and the US of A on both validations as well as permanent licenses. I have nothing against this.
JJ
I am all for free movement of labour. If there's a need of pilots with certain qualifications in one geographical area and over supply in another it should be possible to move about without too much hassle.
As a remined to those objecting non South Africans flying ZS registered aircraft on validations, I have to remind you that there are tens of South Africans flying in Europe, Australia and the US of A on both validations as well as permanent licenses. I have nothing against this.
JJ
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JJ,
The point I am making here is that one CANNOT fly for hire or reward on a validation either in the US or Europe. Whereas certain South African companies tell prospective contract foreign pilots it is a half day in-house affair at Lanseria with 1 circuit.
In the US I had to go through stringent security checks, medical, writen exams, sim course, initial flight test, part 135 flight test etc etc. And obtain a full stand-alone US ATP with a new rating for each type before I could even think of earning 1 cent. Not to mention Immigration!!
In the UK the process is much harder and takes a lot longer.
Compair the hassle and the cost for an SACAA validation !
V1 Rotate
The point I am making here is that one CANNOT fly for hire or reward on a validation either in the US or Europe. Whereas certain South African companies tell prospective contract foreign pilots it is a half day in-house affair at Lanseria with 1 circuit.
In the US I had to go through stringent security checks, medical, writen exams, sim course, initial flight test, part 135 flight test etc etc. And obtain a full stand-alone US ATP with a new rating for each type before I could even think of earning 1 cent. Not to mention Immigration!!
In the UK the process is much harder and takes a lot longer.
Compair the hassle and the cost for an SACAA validation !
V1 Rotate
Last edited by V1 Rotate; 2nd Sep 2003 at 22:47.
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It's a difficult issue
As an aspiring airline pilot I have read this thread with interest. There are so many issue it raises and to be honest I can't see that anything changing as only highly organised action on the part of unions could affect some sort of change which lets face it will never happen.
I think part of the problem is that we all (in the words of an airline pilot friend of mine) prostitute ourselves to aviation. Well certainly the vast majority of us that don't have sponored training or a military background. I don't hear of lawyers or doctors spending over hundreds of thousands of Rand on their basic professional training. In the UK there is even a course costing upwards of £60,000 and that doesn't include living expenses. At the end of this you have 250 hours and fresh CPL/IR. You might be qualified to fly the big jets but with thousands of people in front of you who is realistically going to employ you to sit in the right hand seat of a shiny new 737.
It seems that most airlines want 1000 - 1500 hours before they will look at you. Many want turbine time. And so it is that many of us will find ourselevs heavily in debt thinking of how we can get up to a thousand hours so that we may be taken seriously when it comes to applying for the jobs we want. So given that it is my ambition to fly airliners what am I to say if the opportunity comes up to fly a kingair for a year for peanuts? I'd be thinking to myself that at the end of it I'd have some decent professional experience and then would be taken seriously in the job market. So it goes then that employers must be loving it. Perhaps we will even be daft enough to pay for our own type-rating?
Having given it some thought I don't think there is any easy answer. A world-wide body publishing some sort of guidelines may just scratch the surface. The only real way would be exterminate half the worlds pilots thereby reversing the supply/demand equation which at the moment ensures that most of us other than those at the very top get shafted. Things have swung so far in favour of the employers now that Ryanair even charge you for the privaledge of applying for a job with them. I actually find that quite nausiating.
The bottom line though is that we all have a choice. Lets just hope that no matter how hard competition for jobs gets that none of us start sh1tting on our fellow pilots.
I think part of the problem is that we all (in the words of an airline pilot friend of mine) prostitute ourselves to aviation. Well certainly the vast majority of us that don't have sponored training or a military background. I don't hear of lawyers or doctors spending over hundreds of thousands of Rand on their basic professional training. In the UK there is even a course costing upwards of £60,000 and that doesn't include living expenses. At the end of this you have 250 hours and fresh CPL/IR. You might be qualified to fly the big jets but with thousands of people in front of you who is realistically going to employ you to sit in the right hand seat of a shiny new 737.
It seems that most airlines want 1000 - 1500 hours before they will look at you. Many want turbine time. And so it is that many of us will find ourselevs heavily in debt thinking of how we can get up to a thousand hours so that we may be taken seriously when it comes to applying for the jobs we want. So given that it is my ambition to fly airliners what am I to say if the opportunity comes up to fly a kingair for a year for peanuts? I'd be thinking to myself that at the end of it I'd have some decent professional experience and then would be taken seriously in the job market. So it goes then that employers must be loving it. Perhaps we will even be daft enough to pay for our own type-rating?
Having given it some thought I don't think there is any easy answer. A world-wide body publishing some sort of guidelines may just scratch the surface. The only real way would be exterminate half the worlds pilots thereby reversing the supply/demand equation which at the moment ensures that most of us other than those at the very top get shafted. Things have swung so far in favour of the employers now that Ryanair even charge you for the privaledge of applying for a job with them. I actually find that quite nausiating.
The bottom line though is that we all have a choice. Lets just hope that no matter how hard competition for jobs gets that none of us start sh1tting on our fellow pilots.