Air Ngukurr chief pilot in court

[MIss Behaviour]

Northern Territory News Wed 27 Aug 2003

No power in plane
Court told electrics faulty

By Bob Watt
Court Reporter

The chief pilot of an NT airline told an inexperienced pilot to fly an aircraft that had no electrical power, a court heard yesterday.

Hone Pihama Edwards, 41, also allegedly told the pilot not to report the problem.

Pilot Benn Vandenberg, 24, told Darwin Magistrates Court he landed the Cessna at Katherine and again at an airfield near Noonamah without power to operate the aircraft’s wing flaps, radio and navigation equipment.

But Edwards would say the electrics were working and deny that he told the pilot not the record the problem, defence lawyer John Langmead said. Edwards, 41, of Cullen Bay, Darwin, pleaded not guilty to charges that he aided pilot Mr Vandenberg to commit an offence by:

Being aware of a defect on an aircraft and not entering it on the maintenance release sheet.

Allowing a pilot to begin a commercial flight without ensuring the aircraft was safe to fly.

Federal prosecutor Jack Lewis said the incident happened on May 2 last year.

Licensed aircraft maintenance engineer Michael Amiett said he operated the flaps at Noonamah and found the electrics to be normal. Another pilot later flew the Ngukurr Air aircraft to Darwin.

The hearing, before Magistrate John Lowndes, continues today.

[Fox3snapshot]

I am sure the Tillair boys of days gone by could relate to some very similar stories.

Cash box, tool box, see you in 6 months....Numbalwar here I come!

:p

[Mr. Hat]

Here we go...

Do you remember the last post on air ngukkur.. went on for ages.:hmm:

[bush mechanics]

Soo who hasnt flown with a flat battery or radio failure?Thats why we all have mbl phones!!!

[Yakka]

sh*t......... here we go

[VH-ABC]

Could this thread not be better placed on the General Aviation side of D & G?

[Sheep Guts]

ABC,
The same said company is operating an RPT service to the TIWI Islands with a EMB110 Bandit. So it may still be pertanent in this Forum.

Regards
Sheep

[Prop's ????]

gottom 2 dollar,

It’s people like you we don’t need in GA. Are you stating that you have flown knowingly with a flat battery?


Sheep Guts,

What RPT?

The company hasn’t got any RPT approvals; they call it RPC (Regular Public Charter) it’s a poor mans RPT licence.

[Sheep Guts]

Well ok RPC fair enough but the paying pax dont know that they are travelling with RPT wannabees.

[Northern Chique]

Benn doesnt know me from a bar of the proverbial soap but I have this to say to him....

Congratulations to Benn for sticking up for himself and standing in one of the most intimidating positions known to pilots (the witness stand) and not backing down under considerable fire.

Pilots like him have to well supported to improve the conditions and safety mentality within the industry...

[bitter balance]

Did Benn stand up at the time?

[Santaclaus]

Apparently the Pilot had a handheld radio, and flew the aircraft from Tindal to MKT. for maintenance, what is all the fuss about ???:{

[helldog]

Trust me I know. I was working for the dude at the time and also 'stood up' We all took some coaxing but Benn did stand up at the time.

He did have a handheld true. But it was a UHF handheld, Honks also had a UHF handheld ,and he was making radio calls on behalf of Benn from another aircraft he was in on the ground.

I dont see how he can deny that when they have the tapes from Tindal MBZ of the whole thing. Unless they are not admisable or something like that.

I cant wait for the findings/verdict. It will have ramifications for GA, for the better or worse. If he slips through well that kind of thing will become all the more common.

[bush mechanics]

PROPS!!
mate Ididnt depart with a flat battery,I developed a flat battery mid flight,So I turned every thing off and only turned the radio on to make all station broadcasts when changeing FIS boundarys.
What are you going too do land in the middle of no where?And if you had a hand held radio whats the fuss to get a a/c back to base for repairs.You conserve your battery,Even if this means pumping your gear down (C210)Gear ops draws lots of current from your batery.None of these actions are puting anyone at risk.Reminds of a instructor at parafield who had a alternator prob.I asked him if he reset the alternator in flight?His words ,No way !I didnt whant the engine to stop!!!Well I couldnt believe my ears.A quick demo and his fears were put to rest.
PS I like it here in GA!!

I do remember being asked by the then C/P about why the gear in his chieftan wouldnt retract fully.I told him to check the gear resevoir,He said that he checked it and it was full.I checked the resevoir from inside the nose locker(the only way on chietans)And it was below the sight glass.He had in fact checked the brake resevoir on top of the nose!!!Didnt know his A/C to well

[Sheep Guts]

Funny how operators. Especially in the bush cut at everything, to save money. Thats all it is, to save a buck. It doesnt stop gentlemen with GA, trying to save a buck, will touch your career all the way to the top. The bean counters in the Airlines determine your Future nothing else.

I know its a Long flight from Noonamah to NGU, even longer drive sometimes not even doable. My question is for a company that should be as economically stable as $$$$$$Air, they should HAVE Maintenance back up in place, They should have spares on site in NGU . Well atleast Battery Acid. Weather a new battery and or new alternator/ Generator was required, it should have been done before repositioning the Aircraft. If this case involves CASA, youll find that it will be the corrective action $$$$$$Air must take.

Now you cant tell me that they couldnt wait for an Engineer and parts to arrive from Darwin , maybe not flown by themselves , but by the RPT.

Its inexcusable really, but its taken for granted and its inbred in alot of operators minds "that its ok". Many operators who have worked in the same region have done the same over the years.
They will say its "normal practise". But when the Pilot has to make a landing somewhere for no reason, and the aircraft is destroyed, or the occupants perish. It wont be the Higher Staff pressure, or the Chief Pilot that gets the blame, it will be the "Pilot-CIn-Command"allways.

If you fly anything that is below par in maintennace. Or if your a Pilot who knowingly flys a substandard machine. You are asking for it. What if you had a inflight fire? What if the weather got bad quickly as it can in the Top End?

Ya see guys its mind set the Engineeers are used to it , the Operators are use to it, the Chief Pilots are used to it. TO ERASE THIS MIND SET WILL REQUIRE ALOT OF RE-EDUCATION. REMMEMBER THE AS PIC, THE BUCK LITREALLY STOPS WITH YOU AND YOUR DECISION TO FLY. IF IT DISPLEASES THE OTHER PARTIES , WELL LET IT THEN. BETTER TO WRITE A LETTER TO THE APPROPRIATE AUTHORITY AFTER DECLINING THE JOB, THAN BE A STATISTIC.
NAUGHTY NAUGHTY NAUGHTY TO ALL CONCERNED.........:mad: :\ :}



REGARDS
SHEEP

[Torres]

I'm fascinated with this comment:

"The company hasn’t got any RPT approvals; they call it RPC (Regular Public Charter) it’s a poor mans RPT licence."

Can someone enlighten me on this category of operation? :confused:

[MIss Behaviour]

Meanwhile back at the ranch.....


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Northern Territory News – Sat 30 August 2003

Ring of truth in pilot’s story

Prosecutor tells court

By Bob Watt
Court Reporter

A pilot’s story about being told to fly an aircraft that had lost electrical power, and his chief pilot saying to tell no-one about it, had a “ring of truth”, a federal prosecutor said yesterday.

The chief pilot’s counsel countered that the young, inexperienced pilot made up the story to cover himself after mismanaging a transient event in flight.

Federal prosecutor Jack Lewis and defence counsel John Langmead SC were making final submissions in a case brought against Ngukurr Air former chief pilot Hone Pihama Edwards.

Edwards, 41, has pleaded not guilty to aviation charges of not recording an aircraft defect and not ensuring an aircraft was safe to fly.

Last night Magistrate John Lowndes reserved his decision until Thursday.

Pilot Benn Vandenberg, 24, told Darwin Magistrates Court the Cessna 210 lost electrical power on a flight from Tindal Airport (Katherine) on May 2 last year and he turned back.

At Tindal, Edwards had started the aircraft with a power cart and told him to fly it to a maintenance company at an airstrip near Noonamah, south of Darwin.

Mr Lewis said Mr Vandenberg’s evidence that Edwards said to him, “Hey Benn, better keep this between ourselves”, and being given a hand-held radio to help him fly out of the controlled zone around Tindal “has a ring of truth”.

Mr Langmead said it was a “reasonable hypothesis” that Mr Vandenberg, having demonstrated his inexperience by failing to understand the aircraft’s electrical system, created the story to cover his shortcomings.

[Sheep Guts]

Anyone heard the latest from the court room? What was the outcome?

[Pharcarnell]

Acquitted. Lack of "credible" evidence.
Ie, nothing written down and signed by a JP.

[THE ANTICHRIST]

Seems to me someone was making up nasty little stories to cover up his ineptitude as a pilot.
Good to see the little prancer chased out of court with his tale between his legs,(and he thought CASA gave a rats about him).
I just cant stand these little tossy pilots who, if they cant get everything their own way, are willing to blame everyone else for their career misfortunes.
I hear there is another bunch of these guys waiting in the wings all wound up and ready to unleash their vengence on those people who obviously must be to blame for their worldly problems.
Why dont you all get a life and try and make something of yourselves.



Sweet dreams children

[High Altitude]

Very interesting comments ANTI.

I will be very very very careful what I say here as I do not want to point the finger.

Just because the legal system says that things didn't happen doesn't mean they didn't happen. The past is the past and I believe a certain person has learnt his lesson and raised the bar to a very good level.

Look at all the old posts - ANTI wake up I agree that there is nothing worse than Bullsh*t being spread but when the MAJORITY is talking about the same rumors then? Havachat to Sheepie... Oh and BTW I probably know alot more than most of you think.

Problem with the legal system is that he who has the most money wins.

I say a big pat on the back for people having the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Hey why not its happened to me.

[THE ANTICHRIST]

What H.A

is CASA out of money?

[ITCZ]

Not exactly, pharcanell. The NT news court reporter passed on that Ben was a less credible witness than Hone, in the eyes of the magistrate, due to his performance in the witness box.

I think everyone involved learned a lesson on this one.

If only Ben, immediately after having the problem, and foreseeing that someday, something might be made out of it, sat down and wrote out the details while it was fresh in his memory. Like that night. Photocopy them, put the notes in an envelope, keep one copy for yourself, and send the other copy by post to your dad or uncle or someone, with instructions NOT TO OPEN.

You can then refer to your 'contemporaneous notes' in a courtroom setting. Referring to your contemporaneous note whilst in the witness box, beats your word against his word.

[RobertyRoberts]

ITCZ, good advice. Also, if you get anywhere near anything that might one day get into court, take notes about it in an exercise book. The reason for being a bit over diligent about maintaining records is that at the time you just won't be able to tell at what point you walked into the circus tent.
The test of how thoroughly you do this is that you finish each year with a book containing quite a few full pages.

Another tip - if you are going to court as a witness don't go without legal advice on what to expect and what to say. This advice should include a practice run on what to expect / how to behave when someone's barrister cross examines you.

Sweet dreams Honi :) !

Incidently ITCZ, do you know where I can get a copy of nowie "How to be an Arnhemland Pailote....."

[Hiball]

Well having lsiened and watched over the last few days I am amazed at how the truth can be distorted by the rambling of the uninformed.

Even the court reporter can't remember what was said. The Chief Pilot was not on trial. HE was. Miss Behaviour can't get his facts right.

Props talks about RPC and we all know that is a crock! Does not exist. Air Ngukurr has an AOC and operates within that AOC. I have never had a problem with that. The new CP seems to know whats happening. Now there is a base at Darwin, less problems. Maybe the pilots are closer to the stars now?

Miss B if all you can do is repeat what some nong has written then whats the point.

The Magistrate said that Ben V "embellished" his story. Being too polite to say he was lying! Magistrate said Hone was a credible and reliable witness. Threw the charges out. Just goes to show that if you try and concoct a story just to get even with the Boss you won't succeed. CASA also has a whole lot of egg on it;s face. Not the guys from Darwin though. They don't seem to have the same desire to nail HE as does Haslam and his thugs in the investigation dept. Thats what you get when ex coppers get on the job. Statements that don't hold up - waste of time and money and those that support Vandenberg must be wondering how they will fare now.

Heard a deep voice muttering " now for an action against the liars to recover some cost" Should be interesting to see the outcome of that.

Anyway the case is over. HE has be found innocent of the charges and will no doubt be very happy with that after putting up with the bull**** that has been about over the last few months. I look forward to hearing him on 126.8 again soon.

Safe and happy flying Hone. :ok:

To the others who have prattled their lies - look out.:cool:

[ITCZ]

Dear readers...

Never make the mistake of thinking that a win in court (or an acquittal) has anything to do with anything except legal process.

It has nothing to do with who is virtuous, who is a liar, who did the right thing, who did the wrong thing.

In short, don't fool yourself that a legal victory = a moral victory.

-------------------

However, I commend Hiball on his getting in here and putting us all right on what a bunch of wallies we all are. "We" being the many different pilots of all types from all over the country who have dealt with H.E over the years that have all come to the same conclusion.

I am sure H.E. will thank you for your support.

You are a good mate.

A shortsighted, undiscriminating, and equally simpleminded mate perhaps, but what the hell, a good mate.

Onya.

[Menen]

Reading these posts and having knowledge of some of the characters involved including the legal types, it seems to reinforce what many of us have known for years through bitter experience.

That is firstly you will only come to grief if you involve CASA with any chief pilot problem. CASA leaks like a sieve. Secondly the lawyers for the other side will tear you to pieces in court regardless of your integrity. Unless you have a better lawyer of course - but that costs plenty.

Lastly, when inevitably your name gets around that you are the bunny that tries to right aviation wrongs, you may as well take up taxi driving because sure as hell you won't get any more job interviews in GA. Airlines maybe - but not in GA. Life was not meant to be easy for honest airmen - only the shonks.

[Raingauge]

Anti Christ,
good to see your living up to your name, as the real anti-christ will speak his mind, just as you do, and make absolutly no sence, just like you.:confused:

[Rorksmate]

So, R. v Honkie is over but there still remains the May 8th CASA decision to get rid of Honk’s ATPL and CPL. On 26th June the AAT stayed this CASA decision until after the criminal case was over, and until a date before 30th November.
This means that Honk’s next visit to the Beak will be at the end of the current stay period, when he tries to persuade the AAT to overturn the CASA decision. This is, I believe, called “judicial review of administrative action”.

At the stay hearing in June, Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe made, among others, the following findings of “fact”:

Quote-
(e) Air Ngukurr provides passenger and cargo flights to and from Ngukurr where, for approximately six months of the year, the roads surrounding Ngukurr are flooded and the area is virtually isolated because of flood water leaving air transport as the only viable transport facility. It employs thirty people and provides an essential service to the local community.
(f) Air Ngukurr is associated with the Yugul Mangi Community Government Council and an Assistant Councillor of that Council and Director of Air Ngujurr has sworn that, although the applicant is of Maori heritage, he has a close relationship with the local people; works well with the people and the Directors of Air Ngukurr; is important to both the company and the community; and speaks, interacts easily with the Aboriginal clans; and would be difficult to replace.
(q) The company currently employs the applicant on non-pilot duties but says it will not be able to afford this beyond the end of July 2003 and will need to dismiss the applicant from employment if he is still unable to do commercial pilot flying.
(s) The applicant asserts that his family will suffer financial hardship if the company terminates his employment and he loses $60,000 salary with no prospects of alternative employment

Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe went on to describe some legal precedents for inclusion of issues into his decision making process. Two of these issues are; air safety, and the applicant’s (Honk’s) prospect of success in the eventual review hearing at the end of any stay period. Beddoe dealt extensively with these two in his determination, and these two plus the fact that Honk’s criminal trial was then pending, were the main reasons for a stay being granted.

The third issue is the imposition of any hardship to the applicant, Air Ngukurr, and the Ngukurr community, caused by CASA’s cancellation of Honk’s licenses. The hardship-related facts that he goes on to describe as relevant, but not crucial, to his decision to allow the applicant to retain his ATPL / CPL until the eventual review, are:

Quote-
(b) the applicant is the controlling mind of the company in air operations - the respondent asserts he is the defacto Chief Pilot - with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
(c) the applicant and his family are likely to suffer short-term financial hardship if he is dismissed by the company at the end of July;
(i) in particular, I have taken into account the interest of the parties, the company and the Yugal Community. The community has a particular interest in the company continuing to provide air-services to the community.

Viewers may now reach for their tissues.

Note that these issues were considered in June only in relation to a decision to defer CASA’s cancellation of the licenses, and not to review the cancellation itself, which is next. What interests me is……will the AAT also consider the same facts and give the same weight to hardship, in the forthcoming review hearing as it did in the June stay hearing ?
Creampuff ! You’re a legal type - what does Natural Law and AAT procedure say about this ?

Because…….while the above factual findings and weighting may have seemed reasonable to Tribunal Senior Member KL Beddoe in Brisbane, most of us with red Ngukurr dust on our boots know otherwise. These “facts” would have first appeared at the AAT in the affidavits of Andrew Robertson, Lyn Mott, and other luminaries.

To quote again;

Quote-
Air Ngukurr…… provides an essential service to the local community;
(Honi).. would be difficult to replace ;
… with likely detrimental consequences for the company if it is forced to dismiss him as an employee;
I could go on but just read the paragraphs again…some of these “facts” would verge on perjury in a court. The true fact is that the entire gang could be deported to their country of origin, with the money they have made from Ngukurr, and no one would be disadvantaged for more than half a day !
Except of course for a collection of Ngukurr clan leaders, some of whom are prone to providing affidavits to AAT hearings, and whom would need at least a couple of days to sort out favourable financial arrangements with any new arrivals who replaced the Kiwi Clan…

So, Creamy; other issues will be considered in the review hearing later this year, but considering hardship alone, if it is an issue, will the AAT be able to cross examine witnesses who present the same dubious “facts”, and examine any supporting documents ?
Whether CASA can find any witnesses/evidence of it’s own to rebut any claims of terrible hardship for both Honi and Ngukurr is another question.

The regular Honi-antics would actually be not too out of place in Kingsford-Smith’s era, however passengers are not paying for the Southern Cross and CASA thinks that era is in the past and that what is regularly happening has no place in the NT of the twenty first century (there actually is such a thing).

[Hiball]

Nearly dozed off reading the Rorksmate saga. All very well but the fact of the matter is (unless I am mistaken) you weren't at the hearing. Langmead would have had another field day as the "facts and cricumstances" we all know come from the whingers. CASA even was referered to in the resaons as relying on rumour and innuendo.

For goodness sakes is that how we want the regulator to act? How would you feel Rorky if all of sudden sonme storie appeared about those few incidents that occured involving you but you thought no one knew. Then the man from CASA knocks on yours and everyone elses door and says " I am from CASA I'm here to help you". Bet you wouldn't be so cocky then!! And it would be you that was under the microscope and getting a show cause. Not so good then I bet.

Let the matter be determined on the facts and the law. That's fine but cut the bull****. None of the facts the CASA came up with have ended in a successful prosecution. That has to say something. I woul dbe happy to go back with the Honk. At least you know where you are. Jeez I hope he blows the twerps out of the water and sues their butts off for cauing such grief.

You are dead right Menen, the bunnys won't get a job in GA again, certainly not if I have a say, and I do!! Beware.

cheers. :cool: :}

[THE ANTICHRIST]

It cracks me up how grumpy these little children get when some people actually have the audacity to not to believe in there little fairytales anymore!

tsk , tsk , tsk



Cant wait to hear some more lies kids

Go on, give us another one.

[High Altitude]

I geuss what I was trying to say in my earlier post was that in this case I believe the leopard has changed his spots.

The point here is that we all know what really went on in the past - oh yes there are alot of true stories on prune the problem is you CAN'T prove it. The court decision shows that.

As an operator it is both comforting and frustrating to see that not really alot happens.

Lets just hope that Ngu continues to move forward yes the new CP does seem good.

Mind you I am still wondering about other matters...

[Raingauge]

Hey Anti,
There is a difference in telling lies, and not having the evidence to get something through court. Or do you think that criminals never walk free and that there there are not inocent people found gulty? If this topic is so close to you that it takes away the ability for you to write something constructive then I sugest you let it glide. Little kiddies hey....you out-of-touch, has-been, pathetic didn't make it to where you wanted to go old fart.

(just taking a punt :p )

[Lake Evil]

Heh Raingauge,

Are you with MAF? Been in Darwin for a couple of years heh.. then you know there is nothing wrong with worshipping satan.

[Raingauge]

not with (or ever been with) MAF, haven't been to Darwin for a while....but thanks for the quick phsyc analysis!

[kimwest]

Maybe CASA should publish their real motto "We're not happy until you're not happy!"

And no, Ngu do NOT operate the E110, is operated by a NSW based operator.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

so what happened between BV and the company for him to conduct virtual aviation suicide, twelve months after the fact ??.

[Skidmark]

Does anyone know whether the Court transcripts are available for this most recent case???

Could be the leveller.

[Rorksmate]

Hiball, some Ngukurr dust on your boots too I think.
There are two separate events - Honk’s criminal trial where the standard of evidence was not sufficient to convict, and the earlier disapproval of Honk as Air Ngukurr chief pilot where the grounds CASA used included rumours from Pprune !
The standard of evidence in a criminal trial is much higher than in a civil case, so was any "rumour" used by the prosecution in the criminal trial ? Or, was there only witness's statements and cross examinations ?
The criminal trial transcript would be useful - it would probably show that the innuendo etc only appeared there courtesy of the defence’s effort to show an historical example of CASA’s vile nature, rather than as a part of CASA’s evidence for the prosecution.
Hiball, if you were in court, is that correct ?

At first glance, CASA’s statement, that Pprune posts were part of their basis of disapproving Honi as chief pilot, does raise a few eyebrows. However, CASA also quoted a lot more material there besides Pprune, and the quotation of Pprune rumours does not negate the stronger material on which CASA’s position relied.
Their subtle message in mentioning Pprune may well have been that, yeah, we’re (them) listening so if Pprune types have something send it to CASA.
Note this had nothing to do with the criminal trial, only the chief pilot disapproval, which seems not to have been contested.

What remains next is the CASA v. Honk battle over his right to continue to hold a CPL and an ATPL. The standard of evidence required in this AAT hearing will be less than that required in a criminal trial. The acquittal in August has no bearing on the forthcoming result, and we might hear a bit more innuendo and rumour, as some call it.
The issues would seem to be Honk-hardship (and a bit of Lyn Mott-hardship too ), versus public safety.

And yes, I’ve had CASA drop by to help. “Come right in, mate; tea, coffee, or kava ?”

[sweethart]

rorksmate .... are you CASA ? seeing that you only signed in to pprune for the sake of bagging honks ... that sounds like a typical CASA thing to do .... especially when they are on the back foot.

[slice]

sweethart .... are you honke ? seeing that you only signed in to pprune for the sake of bagging CASA ... that sounds like a typical honke thing to do .... especially when he is on the back foot.



:E :E :E :E :E - gotta lurrrve the pprune!

[ITCZ]

Poor, poor HE. All these people picking on him!

Maybe the silence has been broken coz those of us who have been around Darwin for more than 6 months are ASTOUNDED at the outrage and bleating of the 'HE supporters.'

A haze of unreality surrounds this reaction. Not unlike reading about a burglar being upset at copping a beating from the person living in the house he broke into!

Someone asked for more stories. OK, try these..

A long time ago at an aerodrome far far away...

"All stations Nooker, Chieftain ABC taxiing for Brute Island, runway 11 copied NMQ"
"ABC, gidday, NMQ crosswind runway 11"
"Ah, mate, can I taxi out?"
"If you're quick"
"OK, thanks"
A minute or three later
"NMQ final"
no response
"Mate, NMQ final, you planning to roll or what?"
"Just finished my mag check, won't be a sec"
[#$%##$%! What!!]
"NMQ going around!"
a moment later...
"You should have extended downwind, mate"
"You shouldn't have entered the runway if you weren't ready to go, MATE!"
"Good bushpilots don't do their runups over a loose surface."

Outstanding! What airmanship! I really learned a lesson that day!

Or can our man remember that other splendid example of pilotage....how not to do an instrument approach...
"Didya see me?"
"Didya see me that time?
"Hey boys, how much fuel do I have left?"

And did I mention the mornings entertainment you gave the Kendell boys when they visited to conduct interviews late 2000?

Or playing to the greed of those Ngukurr council members that owed Gulf Air up to $2000 each by getting Mario, the most inoffensive man you could ever meet, kicked out of the community for being a disruptive influence!

Or seeing all those sunburned and freckled anglo-celtic pilot faces collecting CDEP as wages?

If it wasn't real life, it would make a great movie!

=======================================

Hiball asks: For goodness sakes is that how we want the regulator to act?

If i am not up to the job, i might not like it, but i would EXPECT the regulator to take my licence away. End of Story.

The rules are there to protect the poor uninformed sods who pay for airplanes to take them somewhere.

Right from the beginnings of commercial aviation in the 1920's men like Hudson Fysh and Norman Brearley understood implicitly that for aviation to be accepted as an industry, it must be as safe as it can possibly be. From them and from some talented original aviation administrators, there evolved an exceptionally safe and disciplined australian aviation system that used to show the world how it should and could be done.

People like HE are not part of that tradition. They are NOT good pilots. They may have some basic technical skill, but they show NO respect for the system they work in, are ignorant of many aspects of airmanship and the regulations, and are motivated by self interest and move through the day with a bullishness that gives scant regard to their responsibilities to their pax and their community. When under pressure, they don't stand by principles -- they cheat, lie, pressure others, scam and dodge to get through the day. NOT good pilots. Hardly even qualifies as 'persons of good character."

So how should the regulator act? Keep the good guys on their toes. Protect the fare paying public. Knock the shonks, the also-rans and the incompetent on the head, quickly.

If that is an unsurmountable obstacle for you, maybe you shouldn't be in this industry.

[Troopy]

Well Said ITCZ.
I cant understand why people would support such a person, either they dont really know him or it is him.
The things we had to put up with, he took full advantage of us. But thats ok because the x ngukurr pilots are better guys from.


Here is a question for everyone.

As pilots in the industry, who do we really trust?

[MIss Behaviour]

That reminds me of another incident or two. We’ll call the company Crazy Clown Airlines.

The parallels are absolutely amazing as their CP also hails from the shaky isles. The mongrel mobster is that good that HE doesn’t need to do any verbal pre-flight checks, just in his head.

The co-pilot asked for the checklist but he replied “done em” or so he thought until the turbine a/c had commenced its takeoff roll & the co-pilot noticed the torque gauges on zero. Oops somebody left the inverters off DOH!

Another time on finals to DN the PIC said to Capt Krusty “quarter flap thanks” to which Krusty replied “you’re not ready yet”.

Funny, I always thought that the term pilot in command meant just that! :8 :8

[slice]

You have got me wondering which outfit that might have been - Shakyland CP with Turboprops ?? hmmm - the Krusty doesn't refer particularly to the CP does it ??:E

[helldog]

Once....at an aerodrome far far away. You know the big military one, with lots of fast jets.

The weather was bad...oooooh. Fog. Thick and scary...well for this new pilot getting a checkride. ' Yeeh I'll show you how to get in. Just fly a 10nm gps arc with a Garmin100, line up on the VOR and go down through the fog' Now it got dark. And ol' man honks got scared. 'Yeeh, nah I'm going around' And the new pilot was even more scared "Ah chief pilot sir your still on decsent at full power now' 'Yeeh I see the runway, you take over' Then a voice on the radio warned 'your gears not down' ' yeeh, nah lucky we thought of that.

Oh there are so many more to tell. Stay tuned for the next bedtime story. "Ol' man Ziggy the car mecanic tinkers with planes as well"

[sweethart]

helldog ..... enjoy Africa as you wont work in Oz again ....

[Kaptin M]

Sounds as though helldog hit a soft spot there sweethart :mad:

So YOU are the one who processes pilot applications for ALL Oz jobs! You must be one powerful dude.

Funny, but I've never heard of you! :p

Betcha sweetie is losing sleep, wondering who's going to "spill their guts" next. :{

[Rorksmate]

Sweetheart; no such luck, I'm not CASA and I'm not here to help you. Why use the same nickname as a dead croc, and where do You intend to work next ? Africa ?

ITCZ; the quote:"air of unreality" extends as well to how long this saga has been dragging on, consuming all of the time, tears, effort and money that it has.
To quote you again:"Knock the shonks, the also-rans and the incompetent on the head, quickly."

The problem underlying both of your quotes is the lack of regulation of who can get into the industry in the first place; the current answer - anyone ! There may be some implications in this for the "Darwin/NT" thread elsewhere. For example, the simple but very true conversation that you mentioned on that thread.

Somewhere, sometime, Honk featured in such a conversation.
While you acknowledge the relevance of such a conversation to any pilot's consequent first job, consider too the limitations of conversations like these in being unable to sort out that percentage of people who will a year later become the shonks, Honks, and also-rans that we all have to pay for.

[Hiball]

You are dead right ITCZ. When someones down they all pick on him. Good Aussie way in the NT. Just look at the crap that has been posted. Hard to understand except when you dig deeper and find that the whining African pilots did not get what they wanted.

Pretty lucky you are Helldog. What about the arvo when you thought it was only one little drink and no one would know? You lucky the word didn't get out then or you would be the one in the gun! But then you would have copped it sweet? Hell yea!

You seem to know just how to fly an approach in fog. Must have had plenty of practice! The Feds have just about shot their bolt now. Can't find anyone to sign up. They all know they will be in the gun. I am sure they would be happy to talk to you. CVome on home and see what fun it would be. Just remember to bring you wallet!!

You are right Rorksmate- standard of proof is lower in the AAT but then so is the oportunity to attack the witness and the statements will be handy if someone wants to recover some losses. Lies and cheating never won the battle and certainly not the war. Thats what it will be.

Could even see CASA having to pay some money here if the briefs by Langmead are anything to go by! He and that Wollerman turkey have put a bit of a cat amongst the pigeons methinks.

Don't know why we can't all just get on about the busness of flying like we all love and forget the crap. Go Ngukurr you are doing a great job.



:cool: :ok:

[helldog]

Hello sweet-e,

All this crap about not working in Oz again. What bull, I will work there again if and when I choose. For now I am fine here in Africa, yes I do enjoy it. That crap about if you talk to CASA you will never work again is so old. It only works on green pilots that are sent out to risk their lives for shonks like honks. Once you are established in the industry you know it is a pile of garbage.

Hiball, your such a honky. Mate say all you want. I will not even answer any allegations from a honky puppet like you. As this is a place where I encorage open speech...give it your best and let me have it.

I would love to meet the wombats that are sticking up for honks here. No violence or anything...I have no anger to those that are ignorant. Just so I can laugh at you.

Night all I am off to watch the sunset over Lake Vic with a cold Tusker.

[THE ANTICHRIST]

Helldog



I will work back in oz "if and when I choose" ............thats funny!

Which bar?








"How much for the little girl"?

[slice]

Some time ago there was a thread about reference checking with regards to QF but I guess the technique could apply to any organization. A poster stated that if someone got a bad serve from a past employer, the prospective employer would then ask the referee to put their concerns in writing. If the referee then backed out you could be fairly certain that the referee was not being particularly objective.

I think a certain Operator in East Arnhem land has now become so infamous across the land, that putting them down for a Reference would not be such a great idea. :\

statue Honke?:E

[helldog]

As Kaptin M said. Looks like there are a few people out there that are in charge of all applications of ALL jobs in Oz.

I have to aggree that if I wanted a job in Darwin, yes I would find it hard....hmmmm, no I would say almost impossible to get one. But hey I dont want a job in Darwin. We all have to admit that the sittuation is bad in Australia fo pilot jobs. I was there a few weeks ago and was bombarded with questions from pilots that are out of luck there and want too come over here. Aviation is a worldwide game, do you honky puppets think that it worries me in the slightest that my job options are restricted in one small part of the world?

Trust me I have many job prospects in Oz. And chief pilots have asked me for the name of shonks so they can scrap HIS resume if he should apply with them yes I have told them the story. Trust me there ARE many professional operators in Oz, and I would not be at any dissadvantage if applying to them.

One small point on a comment from Hiball. You say that my actions were as a result of not getting what I wanted. Mate thats bull. So was it the same for other pilot s that gave statements? Even the ones that were at the time working for other operators? Lets say it was true, and trust me its not. The motivation does not alter thhe FACTS. So tell me hiball how do we know you are not bagging me because you were adversly affected by honks being exposed, whats your motivation?

Oh by the way, chill the beer and buy the party hats. I will have my day in court in Darwin. Not soon but soonish. All you honky puppets can just ask him the date. You can also tell him that I recieved his threat to me and some other pilots...five by five. Oh and hiball tell him I will say I forgot everything at the hearing...if I can have my old job back. On the 210 of course, but only if CDEP tops up my massive pay!

[Troopy]

Your an unbelievable helldog, you cant handle a 210. you dont know what your talkin aboot.;)

[THE ANTICHRIST]

Just curious, but which one of you squeeky clean, legal at all time pilots took a C 210 up into the flight levels for kicks to see how high you could get?

I guess someone held a gun to your head.

Now theres still talk about people coming back for court cases, H.E did this, H.E did that, but who was personally screwed over?

[ITCZ]

Rorksmate:
You are right, the 'standard conversation' that gets a newbie hired in the NT was put forward as an insight for the wannabees as to how things work up here. I certainly do not endorse it as a personnel selection procedure!

Hiball:
"When someones down they all pick on him"
You are fooling yourself, sweetie.
There are any number of examples to show that you are talking rubbish. Wheels ups at south goulbourn, fuel exhaustion and landing on highways, all sorts of major stuff ups by NT pilots that blotted otherwise clean report cards.
All of the pilots in these instances copped a few comments, but were not the subject of a discussion like this. The difference being that most of these guys owned up to their stuffups, copped the embarrassment and didn't try to bullsh!t their way out of the whole thing. They might have let it be known that there were contributing factors, but hey, they knew they did it. Hell, it was a ticket to an Ansett interview!

The reason that 'poor HE' is getting such a kicking, is not simply because he is down. In fact, it looks like he is legally almost out of danger.

HE is getting a kicking because there are a few people from the mid to late 90's around that won't let him 're-invent the past.' He and his mates are starting to believe their own bullsh!t.

If he had just sat down and kept his mouth shut, and told his mates to belt up, he would most probably have been left alone. But bleating and crying like a TV evangelist caught in a whorehouse has the long-term Darwinites shaking their heads and saying, predictably -- what a load of sh!t, coming from HE of all people.

[jon.pierre]

Since we're all posting scary stories, The Boat once recited me a great one... but I lose track of the who's who.

Helldog was it youself, or one of the other perfect children of the time, that would ... Story deleted as a needless publication of stupid(s') behaviour ... as it went past?

Not accusing... Just asking...

[helldog]

Jon,

That would be rather reckless. Not to mention dangerous. Just like climbing way up into the flight levels. However I have been accused of being both reckless and dangerous, still I dont condone that type of behaviour:p Just ask Boat to tell you the story again:ok:

[jon.pierre]

No matter just glad to see that sort attitude got shown the door, and the company has grown for the better... but then... they were only being dangerous if the Honks MADE them do it.

[maxgrad]

Can remember sitting in NGU pilots area whilst on a charter. The UHF radio ran hot, H.E's beer I expect was very cold, and all the charters about to depart were cancelled as the aircraft needed cleaning.
Yes aircraft should be cleaned but why Cx flights about to depart with pax already waiting?
This is just one of many interesing things I saw.
Unfortunately other things were somewhat unsafe.
Hope parties have learnt and fly lawfully now.