Swiss pilots given inaccurate maps?

[Pax Vobiscum]

Spotted in today's Times: News Quiz (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-1442-792393,00.html). The answer to Q3 "Which airline admitted that its pilots were given inaccurate maps?" is "Swiss".

Although the questions are usually based on articles from the previous day's edition, online searches of Times Online and Google have failed to find anything. Anyone know more? Surely The Thunderer can't have got it wrong!

[finalschecks]

hahaha

TRUE !


Swiss are a bunch of amateurs and even the times got it right this time !!!!

[Airbubba]

From the (BHR) Gulf Daily News:


Vol XXVI NO. 158 Monday 25 August 2003


Swiss airline defends faulty maps for pilots


A Swiss airline admitted yesterday that inaccurate navigation maps were being supplied to its pilots, but insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. "Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can call air traffic control," said Dominik Werner, spokesman for airline Swiss.

He was reacting to reports on the faulty maps in the Swiss Sunday newspapers Le Matin Dimanche and SonntagsBlick. The two papers pointed out printing errors for radio frequencies and guidance signals, approach angles and landing altitudes.

Peter Nussbaumer, a federal air accident investigator, had concluded that navigation maps had a direct relation to aircraft safety.

The spokesman for Swiss said there was absolutely no danger to passengers as a result of discrepancies appearing on maps to some European destinations, adding that the airline had no plans to rectify the errors.


http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/arc_Articles.asp?Article=59965&Sn=WORL&IssueID=26158

[Robert Vesco]

Ah yes, the new charts. One more blessing of the wonderful self proclaimed Swissair safety culture. :rolleyes:

Strange, I haven´t seen any action from the Swiss Aviation Authorities (BAZL) yet... :{

They appear to be more concerned about other things (http://nzz.ch/2003/08/23/il/page-article91U9Q.html) now. :suspect:

[Belgique]

Robert Vesco
Can anyone offer a reasonable translation of that article (and tie it in with this one perhaps?

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/noise/lugano.html

[Robert Vesco]

Here (http://www.swissinfo.org/sen/Swissinfo.html?siteSect=113&sid=4156731) is a link in English.

In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach.

The national carrier, Swiss, recently decided to pull out of Lugano, but at least three other airlines have announced plans to launch flight operations from southern Switzerland. Coincidence? Even Swiss people are getting suspicious... :rolleyes:

[capt2ezy]

i know that 'Cargolux' are using these charts from 'Swiss' .
how do you guys find these charts to use?
how do they compare to airad or jepps.
also i was told that cargolux share charts between pilots and do not ave a set each to refer to.is this correct?how about in the sim?is it the same,one chart to share for 2 pilots?
sounds a bit difficult to operate to me.:confused:

[Dani]

The story is a bit different to what the papers say.
Lido (that's the name of the product) is the follower of old Swissair charts, which had a great reputation, used by SAS, KLM, Singapore and many other operators. Then Swissair went and Lido was created.
The maps are actually very very accurate and very colourful. Whether the later is an advantage or not has to be answered by everyone individually. The problem came when Swiss decided to give the charts not only to the ex-Swr pilots but also to the ex-Crx pilots, who used Jeppesen instead. Since Crossair used to fly to other destinations than Swissair, Cargolux and Singapore, they had to redraw a lot of charts (basically whole Europe). Swiss is flying into very complex airports like Lugano, London-City, Berne and others, so it was a tremendous work to do. Swiss is always quick in announcing news but has rather problems in finishing projects, they threw the charts into the cockpit in a great hurry - and that's the result.
The charts are full of typing errors, sometimes ILS freqs wrong and stuff like this. It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart. But it's really a nuissance.

[Few Cloudy]

Thanks Dani,

Seems to make more sense than some of the ballyhoo above.

By the way, years back the New Zealand Antarctic crash investigation did find that mistakes in the Nav Data Base - provided by Swissair in those days - could have been a contributing factor.

Publication/data base contracts are nice to get but are a heck of a responsibility. I have seen imperfect Jepps and Japanese charts too, for that matter.

[oligoe]

What I know is that they changed their Jeppesen maps not a long time ago for a strange kind a never seen....
One advantage is that I could buy a complet set of 5 books for europe, with the latest revision, for 30 suisse francs, wich makes about 12 pounds... they sold about 80 sets of them for that price.

[None of the above]

From The Times (Business Section) 25th August

Swiss admits to errors

Swiss International Air Lines confirmed reports that navigation
maps supplied to its pilots contained errors, but the carrier
insisted that passenger safety was not compromised. An
investigation by Swiss newspapers found errors in data
contained on the maps relating to radio frequencies, guidance
signals and approach angles. A spokesman for Swiss said:
"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." There are no plans to change the maps.

[DouglasFlyer]

Swiss may do some strange things from time to time - but you can't them blame for everything!

From the homepage of LIDO (the company providing the maps):

Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services GmbH

Lido Lufthansa Aeronautical Services ist ein erfahrener Partner von internationalen Fluggesellschaften für alle Aspekte der operationellen Flugplanung: Ob Sie mit einem der modernsten Flight Planning Tools arbeiten möchten oder andere Möglichkeiten des Zugriffs auf die umfangreiche aeronautische Datenbank, wie z.B. ständig aktualisierte Routen- und Wetterdaten, benötigen, Lido ist der richtige Partner. Auch auf den Gebieten Aircraft Performance Services, Flight Management System und Kartographie ist Lido Ihr Ansprechpartner Nummer 1.

Daten

Lufthansa Systems Gruppe Beteiligung 100%

Geschäftsführung Frank Wagner
Rupert Lange-Brandenburg

Gründung 01. Januar 1998


Which means:

The map providing company LIDO is 100% owned by the Lufthansa Group!

oops!

[ettore]

So what? The fact is that the Swiss pilots were given innacurate maps on the continental network. Up to that change, they were happy with Jeppesen.
Lido belonging to LH Systems does not change anything to the hazard the Swiss pilots are now exposed to.
One of them summerized the controversy : «As long as the wheather is good, no problem. As soon as it will get cloudy and foogy, I'll ask for a sick leave».

[DouglasFlyer]

ettore - you're right!

When you fly back to Zurich forgetting the NOTAM-entry
"IAC 4.1 ILS14 / ILS Navaid Box from 108.30 IKL changed to D108.30 IKL" while lining up for the ILS 14 and suddenly the ILS DME pops up on your PFD despite of the missing D in the navaid box your exposed to extreme hazard and stay better home feeling sick!

Hey - take it easy! This was a Blick-story!

[ettore]

Long before it became a "Blick Story" it was and it remains a concern to many Swiss pilots. To play it down or to dismiss it as a yellow paper story does not help to assess the risks and responses to another Swiss Int'l Airline management failure.
Do the LX crashes in Nassenwill (FMS, training, certification) and Bassedorf (training, procedures, altitude) already belong to the past or are you "out of memory" ?

[124.8]

Why change a good system which is used by many companies, called Jeppessen, for a more expensive, inaccurate and unsafe one called Lido?? I suppose the latter was sold to promote some one's pocket....!!! How can the company make a statement to say safety was not compromised? BULLS**T!!! Management will once again blame the pilots in case of an accident/incident. Has this been reported to the BAZL/FOCA??? Why don't they ground Swiss operations till these mistakes have been rectified?? So, they must be held equally responcible for an incident!!!:hmm: :hmm:

"Pilots have computers on board for navigation and they can
call air traffic control." Not all Swiss aircraft are equipted with these systems.
" It's not a big safetyproblem since we know the Jeppesens by heart." =fantastic memory!! Especially when revision are sent out....:E :E
"The national carrier, Swiss, recently decided to pull out of Lugano, but at least three other airlines have announced plans to launch flight operations from southern Switzerland." In a nutshell: starting September 1st, the Saab 2000 is restricted from flying into Lugano because of the steep approach. " There was nothing wrong in flying a SAAB into Lugano previously, but now that there will be oppostion....!!!!:} :}

[Dani]

Is there someone from LH around who can confirm that you fly with the same LIDO charts or not? I see a lot of Lufthansa's on continental Europe and they must have used charts before...

[126,7]

Maybe they have also commited all the freqs, en-route and app charts to memory:}

[autoflight]

Anybody who thinks that in-flight documentation does not need to be accurate and current does not deserve to be part of the management of any airline. Airline pilots who accept poor documentation are a danger to the industry and do not deserve their pilot licence.

[Kaptin M]

This story has is more than a little reminiscent of Air New Zealand's Mount Erebus accident years ago, when a DC10 had a CFIT in the Antarctic, killing all on board, as a direct result of ANZ's staff in the Flight Planning section providing incorrect navigation information for input into the aircraft's nav system.

And amazingly, in SPITE of being aware of the incorrect/inaccurate information being deliberately supplied, Swiss are refusing to correct it!

[DouglasFlyer]

ettore

according my knowledge the crossair pilots at Nassenwil (Saab 340) and at Bassersdorf (ARJ100) produced their CFITs with Jeppessen's maps...

[ettore]

Douglas, you're fully correct. It only stresses how important the bloody file is. If what you read on the display or hear from ATC does not match with what stands on the map, then you might get Nassenwil.
If you base your descent relying on a map where no hights is given for the hills surrounding the airport, you get overconfident and you might be "landing" at night on the trees in Bassedorf, short before the runway. An so on. Good luck.

[kym]

so much for the swiss cheese theory ehhhh???

[411A]

All the 'Swiss' funding was poured down the Sabena rathole...no more cash for accurate maps.

[Flybob]

411a. Strongly suggest you keep your shallow posts to youself. Every where you venture on pprune you leave trail of verbal excrement.
Pretty much in line with your fantasy airline (BS). I would have to guess that after Air Atlanta fired you and no airline has been willing to put up with your attitude for more than a couple of months since then, that is why you are now having to invent your own. In your head that is! Just like your contracting agency!
You were a lousy pilot and a bull sh***er back then and you are proving that time has not changed a thing.
Lay off the mescal you wasted nutter, and get a life!:yuk:

[411A]

So Flybob, you know all about us then, do you.

Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering. And no intention of Swiss/Sabena-like mistakes.
You just have sour grapes because you were not selected for senior check and training a few short years ago, and no wonder, no prior tracable training experience. ...so back in your box.

In the case of Swiss, clearly there are problems, and suspect that infighting between the two former pilot groups, together with rather poor management up to this point, may well spell the end.
If so, there is lots of spare capacity available in Europe to fill the void...somehow this is always lost on those within the company.
Especially flight crew.

[124.8]

The thread is about the maps on board Swiss aircraft, that are inaccurate.....not some personality problem or CFIT's...
:yuk: :yuk:
If everyone has Jeppessen, everyone would be in the same position wrt accuracy/ inaccuracy. But I can asure you, if there is a problem with Jepp's, they will be corrected quickly. Will Swiss correct their mistake quickly...???? Hmmm, how quickly?? Let the FOCA ground the company, then see how soon something will be done about the situation. If you want to talk about accidents, how long after some incidents with respect to the crew member, did Bassersdorf happen?? Nothing wrong if maps, whether self made, are ACCURATE!!!
If you or your family would fly as passenger on an airline and you find out about such, would you be happy to be passenger on that same airline again??? The bush telegraph will run faster through international circles than bushmen can deliver a kill....

[411A]

The 'problem' with maps (or accuracy thereof) is but a small tip of the iceberg with regard to airlines in general these days.
And flight crew, to their own detriment, generally exascerbate the problem, to a large degree.
All too often individual flight crew (or their designated represenatives) bit@h and moan about petty things, while at the same time ignoring the big picture...or safety (maps for instance).

Bottom line, if they cry 'wolf' too many times, is it any wonder that airline managements turn a deaf ear...they are so busy running around putting out fires that threaten to consume the very company that everyone derives their livelyhood from...and in todays very competitive world, it ain't gonna change anytime soon.

Oh, and I can hear the refrain now...:{ they owe me a job because of my loyality ...and, the pay i'm receiving is not what i'm worth....or, not enough time off for the family....or, too long for upgrade. The list is endless.

Another bottom line...companies owe you absolutely nothing except the salary you earn from daily/weekly/monthly work.
And in agreement with the contract you signed...and in many cases it is not worth the paper it is printed on, anyway.

You have to make you own fortune, anyway you can.
Simple as that.

[Robert Vesco]

I think 411A is mixing up two threads here. :8

[Kaptin M]

Pardon me if you couldn't draw something of a parallel between the Air New Zealand Mount Erebus CFIT, and the current fiasco in Swiss.
In both cases, incorrect navigation data was/is being given to the pilots - data which proved FATAL in the Air New Zealand case, costing that company a great deal of publicity and an enormous conspiracy between company and New Zealand Civil Aviation Authority, as they attempted to blame the (deceased) flight crew for the crash of the DC10.

To draw a comparison for you, 124.8:-
Assume that a Swiss aircraft has an accident operating into one of the destination airports for which these incorrect charts have been issued (or perhaps into one where the inaccuracies are, as yet, undiscovered, and the crew unaware). Following the Mount Erebus scenario, Swiss would try to blame the crew whilst being KNOWINGLY aware that it was the company's information provided to the crew that caused the fatal errors!



(Sorry chaps...411A wrote, "Well lets see...in the last three months we have raised five million, and with meetings this week, fifteen more in the pot, aircraft selected for heavy maintenance, management folks at other airlines have given notice to join our small company, exactly 86 CV's on file from experienced folks looking for work (will need more)...not all that bad, considering." I recall reading similar garbage from you about 3 or 4 years ago, 411, including something like, "We already have our Chief Flight Engineer picked out....xx number of highly experienced pilot cv's on file...
Be careful the police aren't watching you, 411, they may have you up for public m@sturbation :ooh:

[411A]

It may seem so Robert V, but consider...

Swiss Air, an extreamly well run/respected company for many years, with top-notch pilots and operating procedures, is run down the drain by inept management in buying into the Sabena bottomless pit.

Then, we have CrossAir, clearly another rather well run company, combined with the what remain(s) of Swiss Air, to form a company without proper direction...or, as it turns out, management.

Two pilot groups, each experienced in their own day-to-day operations, thrown together helter-skelter...and the CrossAir guys wanting big aeroplane upgrades (even tho most wouldn't know what to do with a heavy jet if it bit 'em)...and the ex-Swiss Air guys, tromping all over the CrossAir guys, trying to steal their jobs.

Is it any wonder accurate maps get lost in the shuffle?

A public relations nightmare for all concerned, that's for sure.:(

Edit for additional comment,

The good Kaptin M should know all about 'public activities' as it was there for all to see...in OZ, 14 years ago.:E

[694c]

No Kaptin, there is no parallel between the Erebus crash and the current debate about inaccurate Swiss charts. Any professoinal pilot knows that amendments, revisions and Notams are an almost daily chore. He therefore applies airmanship to update and cross-check his navigation using every available means. The flight plan track provided to the Air New Zealand Antarctic flight might have been offset to that which the crew expected, but the fact remains that they did not check it and that Captain Collins descended below minimum safe altitude without having positively ascertained his position.

[autoflight]

I honestly cannot fully blame airlines for out-of-date publications. Captains are finally responsible and, in my experience, almost all will be found wanting.

Every time you fly, check your updates. For example, Jepps are amended weekly. If you accept Jepps with amendent 2 weeks old, your own standard is on the skids. If your company will not co-operate, buy your own publications, change company or get out of the business!

If you are so full of **** to think it doesn't matter, watch this space.

[Vizcaya]

Maybe you should ´read this space´ before you start saying the obvious that pilots have to fly with current charts.

This thread is not about about out-of-date publications! We were (in August actually, gooooooood morning!) talking about "inaccurate" charts, i.e. charts that were not correct from the date they were published and inserted into an updated route manual!

Sleep tight! :zzz:

[autoflight]

The accuracy and full currency of publications is obvious to Vizcaya, me and and small proportion of other pilots.

[sky330]

IMHO, this thread is going the wrong way. The problem is not wether Swiss Pilot was given inacurrate charts or not.

It is that the management seemingly refuses to correct the situation!

If you think Jeppesen chart are never missing something or never had been misprinted, get real, it has happen in the past and it WILL happen in the future. No system is perfect. But the notam is issued as soon as the problem is noticed by anyone.

What is creating concern to me is someone that knows of a safety problem and refuses to correct it.

But I am not an insider, so I may be missing something here.

[what_goes_up]

Don't see the point guys.
Yes there are misprinted maps. But there are NOTAMs to cover that. And BTW this is not mainly a Swiss problem. We carry LIDO charts. LIDO is a Lufthansa daughter. But as far as I can remember there were some misprints on Jepps as well.

[411A]

Not only that, but Jeppesen has a major problem with supplied databases to many GPS units.
Constant errors...followed by urgent NOTAMS on their website indicating thus, or notes with the databases themselves when received each 28 days...does not inspire confidence in their operation.

Think Jeppesen needs to get their collective act together.

[N380UA]

Here some infos as to the Jeppesen charts and their accuracy.
I’m not pointing out fingers at anybondy and missprints will occure
But results like that must be prevented.

The families of eight people who died with U.S. Commerce
Secretary Ron Brown in the crash of an Air Force transport
in Croatia are suing Jeppesen Sanderson for $170 million,
claiming it published an inaccurate chart that caused the
crash.
According to the suit, Jeppesen's chart changed the approach
procedures set by the Republic of Croatia for Cilipi
Airport. More specifically, the lawsuit claims the Jeppesen
chart contained a minimum descent altitude that was too low
and a nondirectional beacon approach procedure that couldn't
be conducted safely because of nearby mountains.
The suit also claims the chart didn't inform pilots that
only aircraft with two radios could safely execute the
approach, it didn't list the beacon radio stations to be
used for the approach and it failed to warn pilots of
dangers of the approach procedures.

Jeppesen denies the allegations.

[411A]

Given that the aircraft involved was operated by the USAF, I wonder if the crew could actually read the chart in the first place, even if it was correct.
Reports at the time suggested that the subject aircraft was well off course, and far too low for the sector involved.
And further, if the stations were not listed on the chart in the first place, wonder just why the approach was started, considering the difficulties involved in navigating successfully.
More than likely, hotshots at the pointy end not quite knowing what they were doing.

[HotDog]

411A, you are a bit of an enigma. No sooner you do a 180 and castigate managment, you do a double flip and vilify aircrew.:rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Just to nudge a few memories regarding Cilipi.

Approach required two NDB's to be tuned - the USAF aircraft only had one receiver.

Rob