Dinard closed for Ryanair?

[CSX001]

Working Brest Control on Saturday morning, we heard the Ryanair flight approaching its destination, Dinard at around 10:30Z to be told:

"Sir, the Tower at Dinard is closed today, you can descend at pilots' discretion but the airspace is not controlled. I know of some other VFR traffic landing at Dinard ahead of you. What are your flight conditions?"

"We're VMC on top - is the airport actually open and expecting us?"

" I think so sir, but the tower is closed, so you make your own information and landing sir"


LONG PAUSE

"If you like sir, they can open the Tower for you at 11:00Z, what would you like to do?"

"Understand that the tower will open at "11:00Z? OK then, we'll hold overhead until then"




What is going on at Dinard?

Charlie

[BEagle]

Lunch?

Seems a very odd thing to happen at an aerodrome with an international carrier operating a routine scheduled flight to its normal destination within published operating hours...

[CSX001]

Ryanair were not the only ones caught by surprise. Whilst we were on frequency with Brest, a November registered GA type was told that he could only descend below FL60 (still above cloud), at his own discretion because Dinard Tower was closed. Needless to say, he became VFR after a rather contorted discussion with Brest, whose command of English was being very badly stretched by the Dinard problem.

[jerseymilkman]

Sadly, this has been going on for ages. It is not the fdault of the staff, but the lack of them that is causing problems.

[Charlie Fox]

The closure of the Tower/CTR was Notamed on the 21st Aug. See the following:

RAC : FROM 03/08/21 12:18 TO 03/08/31 23:59 B4649/03
E)CTR HOURS OF OPS:
MON-FRI : 0615-0845, 1015-1745
SAT : 0615-0845, 1015-1945
SUN : 0745-0945, 1115-1800
EXCEPT:
SAT 23/08: 0615-0730, 1100-1200, 1415-1945
SUN 24/08: 0830-0930, 1500-1730
OUTSIDE THESE HOURS: A/A 121,100MHZ:
IN FRENCH ONLY TILL 2100
NO TRAINING FLIGHTS EXCEPT FOR BASED ACFT

Don't Ryanair look at NOTAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any truth in the rumour that Ryanair are moving down the road to Rennes & giving up the Dinard route????

[Single Flasher]

I know ryanair have been looking at Rennes for quite a while.

This doesn't necessarily mean Dinard will close. For example after taking on Clermont Ferrand from Buzz, they continue to fly into St Etienne near by.

As always the only man really in the know is MOL!

[CSX001]

Don't Ryanair look at NOTAMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Apparently not! This crew, whilst they responded perfectly, were definitely caught on the hop.

[Mach Buffet]

How the Fiick do you expect us to read the notams?
We have only 30 minutes pre-flight time from check -in to push back all courtesy of the EX- PRESIDENT OF IFALPA who now works for the IAA!!!

In that 30 minutes we even have to drive ourselves out to the aircraft - if you can find a minibus.

I'd love to see how Tweedle Dumb would get on with planning a six sector day in 30 minutes.

[Idunno]

So you're saying Ryanair is unsafe then?

Are you a Ryanair pilot?
If so, what are you and your colleagues doing about it?

p.s. Cheap shot at IALPA/IFALPA considering you lot won't even join a union.

[Whooaahh]

Surely this is the responsability of someone in RyanAir's Operations/Dispatch departments. In a former life as a Dispatcher it was my job to read the NOTAMS and brief the crew on anything relevant to the sector they were about to operate. An airfield/tower closure would have delayed the flight immediately the NOTAM was received.

In this case, Ops/Dispatch should have advised Scheduling so they could reschedule the flight to comply with the Dinard tower opening times thereby still maintaining their on-time performance statisics.

In an extreme case I turned up in SVO at 08:45 for my 10:45 flight back to GVA to notice it was not showing on the airport screens. On enquiry I was advised that the flight had been "rescheduled" for 20:45 that evening!! GGGrrrrr!! Eventually managed to get a reroute via ZRH and arrived home 5 hours late. SU still recorded the Geneva flight as operating on-time and this was actually caused by a tech aircraft reducing their capacity. I was consulting for them at the time so real details were relatively easy to come by.

I sympathise with Mach Buffet...30 minute reporting times are madness, as are IMHO 30 minute turn arounds. It is simply impossible for the crew to complete a full briefing and everything else that is required within that time restriction.

Bring FAA style licenced Flight Dispatchers to Europe is what I say!

Whooaahh!!!

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

Didn't this happen before some months back with a Ryanair flight inbound to Charleroi, when the airfield was notam'd as closed due to a local holiday of some sort.....? Diverted somewhere (Ostend, Brussels....?)

[johnpilot]

GCC, Brussels South Charleroi never closes for Ryanair, and it will even extend its hours of operation incase of a Ryanair delay, as long as it is an 800 operating and not a 200. There never was a diversion to Brussels or to Oostend because of Charleroi being closed.
Mach Buffet, last time I checked, we all sign on the bottom of the flight plan that we have read all pertinent notams and all FCIs. I do not know were you operate, but in Stansted you do not drive yourself out to the airplane, you just have to walk to it from the crew room, if you work for Buzz stansted I do not know your procedures, but sign in across the bases are 45 minutes and not thirty. Since we are all profesionals, and since our chief pilot is willing to listen to any good sugestions, why don't you tell him of this problem. If it is only you who has this problem maybe then you should come in earlier and take your time, maybe you can even read the notams via the internet on the pilot brief web set in the comfort of your own home, or maybe you can delegate other tasks during briefing to be done by the other guy. I am sure though that being a professional pilot, and having gone over the duties and responsibilities of your licence, you know that you have to abide by the FOM and the signature you sign on the flight plan.:O
JP

[birdstrike]

johnpilot

Whilst what you say is correct, the tone of your last two sentences make me very glad that I don't have to fly with you.

Such a 'holier-than-thou' attitude must make you a bundle of fun to fly with (or perhaps you are a wannabee manager, 'cos that's the sort of c**p they come out with!)

[johnpilot]

Birdstrike hello,
I am sorry if you did not like the tone of the ending, however I did not mean it to sound they way you understood it. I am not a management wanabee, far from it, as I enjoy my days off and I am not interested in getting "ahead". I love to fly and that is the end of my relationship with aviation. All I was trying to say was that we should not blame general accepted practices within the airline that no-one has complained about (as far as I am aware) about the errors we make during our daily operations. Having said that I have to be the first to admit that I do make errors, I try to limit them and not repeat them, but hey we are all human. To bad we do not have the opportunity to fly together as I am sure we would also have good fun as I do with any crew on a given day.
JP:D

[zed3]

Golf Charlie Charlie - I think it was Eindhoven where this happened earlier this year. Seemingly they didn't read the Notams then either.

[Lon More]

Indeed it was Eindhoven.
Also first day into Niederrhein one flight held overhead for +/- 20 minutes alledgedly because ATC was unavailable

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

OK, Eindhoven, that's it - sorry to the Charleroi folks. But, I recall it well as it was discussed fully here.

[JW411]

What has it got to do with the CAA? I had always understood that Ryanair is an Irish airline.

I'm sure that their FOD has an excellent lawyer but whether he has a good lawer is open to question.

[Arkroyal]

johnpilot saidmaybe then you should come in earlier and take your time, maybe you can even read the notams via the internet on the pilot brief web set in the comfort of your own home
Yeah, right.

You work for a low cost operator who cuts your free time and lifestyle to the divorce stage, and then you are expected to give them your free time as well!:yuk:

[LNAVengaged]

Hey Arkroyal ,

go get a job somewhere else then - youre wife might appreciate it , especially when youre overnighting down route for three nights a week . thats divorce .

[Steamhead]

Please note the time 1100 Z +2 = LUNCH TIME

[OpsMon]

:D I can see the headlines now "CLOSED AIRFIELD FORCES RYANAIR FLIGHTS TO DIVERT TO A REAL AIRPORT" and "Passengers amazed to discover that there ARE airports near the cities in Europe "

[RAT 5]

Just a few questions:

As I've heard, pilots sign in +45 mins (C/A's +60mins) Now that is what I call getting priorities correct?!?

They then have to be onboard +30 mins. If Ops don't do a pre-flt check of all NOTAMS, crappy Wx diversions etc. then no way can crews do it professionally and correctly in 15 mins. I suspect this +45mins is for FTL/duty time criterea.

Now, if the flight was delayed so the crew could do the pre-flight job competely, to what would the delay be credited? If the crews come in early what is the consequence on duty times?

I presume they are audited by their FOI, and I presume someone from the authority occasionally flies as an observer. This can not be an unknown fact; so who is turning a blind eye?

The cost of a diversion or lengthy holding due to lack of ATC, which could have been avoided by a delayed departure, can hardly be considered a cost saving, which was the objective of the exercise in the first place.

Having said that; there are many airlines who did not introduce CAT2/3 ops on a cost analysis basis. i.e. the cost of such ops was greater than the few diversions. No doubt something similar applies here, in that the number of ops staff and crew duty times has been costed versus the occasional inconvenience.

As management pilots are regular fliers they must be aware of the situation and condone it, or have no problem. Ask them how they do it and follow suit.

[Crewcut]

Quote: OK then, we'll hold overhead until then!

Did'n think Ryanair carried extra fuel to hold with;)

Crewcut

[Vapor]

Tankering round trip i guess!

[Say Mach Number]

What I am about to say does not excuse not reading the notams but as with everything there is the other side.

As for the 45 min report yes its tight but in reality because of the professionalism in Ryanair most Captains and FOs are nearly always there 1 hour before and more.

I myself ending up holding at one of our airports in Germany due ATC being closed early one morning. Yes I did read the notam but we pushed back early, several directs from ATC and stonking tailwind before we knew it we were arriving 10 mins before the airport opened even with slowing down. S**t happenens. Might this have happened in Dinard?

As for this low cost divorce material rubbish. I like being in my own bed every night and I enjoy even more my guaranteed 3 days off every week. Been in FR 5 years dont know of any divorces yet. Several divorced pre Ryanair.

Even better no night flights saw Air 2000 crew going through Enterprise House about 2330 one night to start work. NO THANKS.

Considering the amount of flying we do and the multi sector days that go by without incident or problem then perhaps the critics of the Dinard crew will give us credit where due. Somehow I doubt it though.

[Frosch]

Haste makes waste. Short turnarounds, many sectors?

[eng123]

Mach,
What a well written response to all the Ryan basher's.Reckon they must all be jealous of us!

[Instrument Ranting]

What is the situation leaglly for a commercial flight in this situation?

If the ground and passenger handling facilities are expecting them, can they land without air traffic?

Or does no ATC mean no fire cover?

[Aviation Trainer too]

Agree with Mach fully!

The best prove is in the pudding: all the complainers have never worked and or never will work for RYR..

The ones who do are happy, well paid, flying a lot and know what the schedule is and sleep at home thank you very much!