Smoking on the flight-deck

[fmc_apprentice]

I have recently begun my career as an airline pilot with the big Irish mob and in most respects love my job-- lots of flying, great aircraft and destinations but one thing spoils it for me! About 20% of the Captains smoke on the flight deck -- continuously! And if that isn't bad enough some of them smoke cigars and also invite the cabin crew up to join them for a fag in flight! A few of them ask me if I mind but on the one occasion that I objected it ruined the working day as the guy then gave me a hard time from then on! Rather naively I had assumed that all smoking stopped on aircraft many years ago so this down-side to my new occupation was unexpected. The 737 flightdeck is a tiny office and I go home feeling as if I have chain-smoked a whole packet myself! ( I have never voluntarily smoked a single cigarette in my life!) Is this common with most UK airlines or is Ryanair unusual in this regard.
They put out a Memo to pilots some years ago but no-one seems to take any notice. Talking to some of my other FO friends I am told that they suffer the same problem but our positions as FO's in this rapidly expanding operation are too exposed for us to do anything. Any suggestions???

[Flyin'Dutch']

ISTR that your employer has a duty of care to provide you with a smoke free environment.

May be time to mention this to Human Resources and let them tackle it.

FD

[ausdoc]

Sounds to me like the company is opening themselves up for litigation in the event that a non-smoking employee develops a smoking-related illness.

[Kaptin M]

Is it legal to smoke in an aircraft there f_a? It is ILlegal to smoke ANYWHERE onboard an aircraft in many countries now.

Aside from the health reasons mentioned previously (along with the liability of the company, the responsibility of which is entrusted to the Captain of each flight, and who therefore may possibly be held PERSONALLY responsible at some future date for allowing this to happen), there is the STINK.

Smokers STINK...their breath, their clothes, their hair.

Perhaps a letter to the Chief Pilot stating that you`ve noticed some of the company`s aircraft flight decks have a strong stink of tobacco and need deodorising, might do the trick!

Inconsiderate @ssholes!

[Colonel Blink]

Totally agree - how will they handle the claims for compensation from those who get lung cancer as passive recipients of the filth despatched from those that should know better.

Perhaps their medicals will be due soon and they will be despatched out of the system.

[fmc_apprentice]

Unfortunately the ethos in this company is " stay invisible" if you want to go places. Virtually no FO would be be prepared to "raise his or her head above the parapet in case it gets shot off". Virtually every FO that I talk to hates this imposition but is too scared to risk his/her career by complaining or resisting the practise. Perhaps the discussion here will leak back to the management and bring about change! I can only live in hope as this is probably one of the worst features of the job!

[DSR10]

Use the Oxygen & stop picking on smokers...would you rather have a cool captain or twitching wreck?

[MaximumPete]

I know of two first officers who were given a hard time by the smokers. The company has a total ban on smoking on the aircraft.

The ban was not enforced.

The problem only resolved itself when the smokers retired.

MP;)

[fmc_apprentice]

I've talked to some of my contemporaries in other UK (CAA) airlines and it seems that Flight Deck smoking has pretty much died out. In the case of FR the growth rate and relative anarchy of the operation seems to preclude any effective control. Personally-- I don't care if people smoke as long as it doesn't affect others. What amazes me in this situation is that the smokers consider it their right to inflict this filthy and dangerous habit on others such as myself. On top of that the flight decks can become dirty smelly places for the next crew taking over-- remember these aircraft only get cleaned once in 24 hours and even then not very thoroughly.

[Airbus Girl]

There are a couple of options.

Firstly, if you check, you will find that it is illegal to smoke airside at many airports. This includes on the aircraft. You could perhaps arrange a "spot check" to happen. Or you could mention this, in writing, to the company and ask if you are allowed to smoke or not.

Second, if the Captain wants to smoke, tell him that that is fine, but you will leave the flight deck for the duration.

Third, take up a foul smelling habit yourself. One good plan is to get a really strong smelling deodorant or aftershave and spray it about liberally either during or after the smoking.

This is a health and safety issue. You should perhaps query it again with the company, in writing, and ask them where you stand.

The company I work for used to allow smoking on the flight deck. It was then banned. And everyone managed to get through even long haul sectors without a cigarette.

Now the company I work for has banned smoking airside too, after one crew had a "spot check" and received a warning as it was illegal.

Some people go off to find a smoking area during turnround, but most don't. Some have taken the opportunity to reduce the amount they smoke or try to give up altogether. Some use patches. But most just cope with it.

Perhaps if someone is so addicted to a drug that they cannot function without it, then they shouldn't be flying?

[moosp]

Airbus Girl and others,

I think you have missed the point that f-a is trying to make. He may well be surrounded by an illegal act, but to report it to the management will ensure his dismissal. The horns of the dilemma that every honest whistle blower finds himself upon.

If you wish to end this problem then the first thing to do is not to appear to be concerned about it. If you are seen to be annoyed by smoke and there is a witch hunt to find out who has either contacted Pprune or the CAA then you will be assumed to be one of the possible perpetrators. It is simpler to sack a dozen to be safe than the one guy who did it. So stay low.

Check your local regulations. Is the non-smoking rule a CAA rule or a company rule? If CAA you have a case. (I use the term CAA to refer to your local legislative authority. Your acronyms may vary...)

If it is a law, I suggest that you talk to the CAA. I know many here will blast me for that but if there is one thing that yanks their chain it is the blatant breaking of a rule, as this most probably is. FOI's are pilots first and government employees second. They are remarkably approachable to a phone call that relates to rule breaking.

One problem you may have, if you call the flight operations inspectors of certain country's aviation authorities is that some of them are in the pockets of the biggest local airline or the local/national government. This may or may not be a concern with the people you are dealing with. If you think that the authority that you talk to drinks in the same bar as your boss, try another tack.

Another tack is your local 101 of any of the NGO anti smoking lobbies. They are good on procedure, and probably have on their books several cases against local companies who have failed to follow the law. You will be greeted by rabid anti smokers who may be a bit extreme for you, but they have their place.

I shall now go outside for a gentle cigar. Hypocrisy allows all the vices...

[Notso Fantastic]

<Second, if the Captain wants to smoke, tell him that that is fine, but you will leave the flight deck for the duration.>
I think this is one of the best courses of action. Tell him that a smoky atmosphere gives you a headache and may induce a sinus attack and you cannot be present during smoking, or shortly afterwards. I sympathise- a very difficult position. I can remember in my early days on a 4 crew VC10- ex wartime Captain with his beloved pipe, old Copilot on a cigar, Flight Engineer chain smoking cigarettes, and me crying with stinging eyes and aching lungs! Bastards! Looking back, I should have stopped it stone dead there and then and let them do their worst! But you don't have to just sit there!

[kepor]

Certainly a difficult position.

I'm not entirely sure of regulations at the moment, but the Irish government is introducing a complete ban on smoking in the workplace from Jan 1st 04, hence smoking will even be banned in pubs etc. So from 1st Jan there should be no doubt.... Not that that makes it any easier to actually deal with.

[fmc_apprentice]

Well at least I have generated some discussion. Obviously not many of you are aware of the way the FR works though. Now perhaps I need to get the Irish Press to start reading Ppune! I think there is no doubt that the practise is illegal and as I said the company has officially banned it BUT in FR this makes very little difference! I have not found a single FO prepared to join me in making a stand over it even though most of them detest the practise. Although the airline has its main base in the UK its pilots come from virtually every part of the world and of course this includes a lot of former Eastern bloc countries where smoking is endemic and CRM virtually unheard of!

[buttline]

You could see if saying "I don't mind if you smoke as long as I can open the window" has any deterent effect. :}

[baldwim]

I am not a commercial pilot but am amazed that you can pass a class 1 medical with a drug addiction.

Is an addicted captain very safe if he has forgotton his pack of 20 and has to go a few hours without -'twitching' as someone said?

[Flyin'Dutch']

While the issue of smoking on the flightdeck (or any office for that matter) causes a big nuisance factor and potential health hazard which should be addressed by any Occupational Health and Management Team worth its salt, I would for the immediate future be more worried about your statement regarding the absence of CRM.

FD

[ratsarrse]

I can't get over the hypocrisy! No doubt the 'No smoking' signs remain illuminated throughout all Ryanair flights, but that doesn't apply to the cockpit! Next time I'm stuck in the back surrounded by the great unwashed and gasping for a fag, it'll be even worse knowing that the crew may well be happily smoking up front. Either smoking is deemed a risk to the safety of the aircraft and is banned entirely whilst on the plane, or it isn't and you should be allowed to smoke anywhere or in designated smoking areas while in the cruise.

amazed that you can pass a class 1 medical with a drug addiction.

Well, if pilots were recruited exclusively from the ranks of people that didn't smoke, or drink alcohol, tea, coffee, or coke then we'd probably not have very many of 'em!

[Onan the Clumsy]

I've been looking for an NTSB report but I couldn't find it.


Two guys come in to land (in a 172 I think) and the pilot puts it down heavily. They hear a glugging sound from the back, only to notice...this gas can they were carrying :confused: has fallen over :ooh:

Well it's obviously not such a good idea to have gasoline sloshing around your aircraft, so the passenger reaches back to stand it upright again :)

Trouble is, he has a cigar in his hand :uhoh:

Whoosh! :mad:

They had to jam the brakes on and make a run for it :}

The aircraft was a write off though :ugh: :ouch:

[mrbungle]

There is new legislation coming into Ireland early next year, the dates have not yet been fully confirmed but Jan 1 is the kick-start date.

The laws are anti-smoking laws and have been much in discussion lately over here. The anti-smoking laws are more than likely being expanded into the workplace, which should bail the FR FO's !!

Unfortunately though, enforcement of this law will be the stumbling block.


BTW:
(I can't see how FR would have a clear out of a few FO's as mentioned previously, just cos someone has a grievance with a smoking captain, there are ways of confidential reporting )

[Northern Chique]

mmmm thinks back over all those "a couple-a-smokes wont kill me folks"

one by one I watched em die... and they never went fast. The lucky ones have emphasema or had a stroke... if you call it lucky.

The modern cigarette is a stick full of chemicals, a far cry from the tobacco of old. Given the increasing number of areas were being closed to smokers, even my paramedic friends are giving up... not for their health, but for the lack of places to smoke.

The bigger worry I see is alcohol. That stuff in abnormal quantities is a death trap, and again, hard to give up once addicted and the results of a drinking binge and driving home are often fatal. There are many social indescretions also arising from overconsumption. but I digress....

I think "fine", if a person wants to smoke, as long as they show consideration for those around them. boozing and killing someone is unforgivable.

I have the feeling that given enough pressure, the cockpit inhabitants of the aforementioned airline will suffer lungfuls of smoke unless they recruit outside help. One person used to send a chest xray to his company after he had a chat to his doctor. Each xray would come up relatively clean. There came a time when a massive chest infection left his lungs filled with matter which showed up during the xray. The company was pertinant enough to get the hint and banned smoking, as the doctors report stated - male nonsmoker with bronchial lesions possibly precancerous query due to secondary smoking in workplace environment. Very brave of both of them.

[boeingbus2002]

Why not play them at their own game. While they are smoking open up a box of the smelliest Egg and Fish sarnies (or whatever concuction) you can.

Or while you alone..sneak a smoke alarm on!

(Very childish I know and not very constructive but I hope you get it resolved soon!)

[vertical speed]

Going by the amount of ash I see overflowing from the officially unused ashtray on the left side of the 738 cockpits for that certain Irish airline, there is either a small number of chain smokers amongst the Captains or a few VERY heavy smokers!! In this day and age I find it unbelievable that a Captain could be so selfish ( and addicted) that he or she would inflict this habit on an unwilling copilot. For those of you not familiar with Mr Boeing's best selling aircraft-- the cockpit is the size of a small broom cupboard! Since seeing this thread I have asked quite a few of the copilots and it seems that we have quite a number of extremely selfish Captains-- even including some training Captains who should know better!

[vertical speed]

Great news-- FR management must read this! A new notice has just come out making all Ryanair aircraft rigidly NO-SMOKING areas. This will of course also mean no more "quick fags" on the turnrounds for cabin crew either. Perhaps time to buy those patches?

[fireflybob]

Apart from the obvious health risks/issues what about the FIRE risk caused by smoking on the flight deck, not to mention the distraction if a cigarette gets dropped on the floor etc?

I find it most disappointing that this should be raised as an issue after all the CRM training that is now prominent.

Captains who insist on smoking on the flight deck should NOT be Captains!!

The issue of FOs being afraid to make an issue of this matter through fear of reprisals etc is far more serious that the issue of smoking on the flight deck and speaks volumes about the manner in which operations are conducted, in my opinion.

In short, a serious flight safety issue which needs dealing with at the highest level.

[GJB]

This is quite a difficult situation.

I'm actually quite shocked at the ignorance and arrogance of those involved.

If you protest in flight and feel you are treated differently as a result, you could make a submission to CHIRP. Hopefully the offenders would read the article and realise how much of a **** they had been.

[silverknapper]

Where are the FR aircraft registered? Forgetting all the anti smoking health and safety stuff for a moment is it not just downright illegal?

[DSR10]

Has prune been targeted by the anti smoking lobby. What a load of crap has been posted.
Fire risk zilch.
Passive smoking zilch according to latest research.
No smoking means lower cleaning bill and a/c filter changes.
Easy enough to schedule two smokers on the flight deck

[vertical speed]

Latest statistics also show that lung cancer is the most common type of cancer among European men. That ridiculous "survey" that purported to state that passive smoking was not detrimental to non-smokers was sponsored by the cigarette industry! I think it will not be long until addiction to tobacco will prevent one from holding a Class 1 medical! Ireland is about to ban all smoking in public places and it now seems that Ryanair has decided to extend this to their aircraft-- Great news!

[Tash Noon]

For me It still comes back to the lack of CRM... cockpit gradient etc. FOs should have the balls to stand up to these captains and Captains should be nothing other than plain bloody CIVIL! Chatting to smoker friends, even they say smoke in confined areas is hard to swallow:sad: Eyes affected, Sinus problems etc. All this from people who are used to the Drug... I can only sympathise with these FOs. But in all honesty... Brutally honest here... Stand up to them, winging on this page is not where your fight should start. If you're not head strong enough to simply ask someone to refrain from smoking, which is polite and sensible, Then go fly single pilot ops...
Power went to my head then...:E
Maybe just a chat on the ground would suffice?
Good Luck with it all...
Ps I am on your side honest!!

[pilotpilot]

fmc_apprentice, I SO understand and empathize with you. I myself have just started my career as FO and some of the captains smoke too! :( :( Usually, when they ask me if I mind (obviously expecting a "no"-answer), I reply, "One, here and there won't bother me", kind of implying that I DO mind the smoking but at the same time I am tolerant of one or too. When I get home my hair and clothes are stinking of smoke and after a long flight I usually get a headache. Leaving the flight deck is a very good idea, and one which I haven't tried yet, however, what to do with a chain smoker? Stay in the loo all the flight?

Another consideration which hasn't been given...I believe some companies allow female first officers to fly till they are a few months pregnant. Will any consideration be given by these captains, in these cases? Or do they end up "twitching wrecks"?

DSR10, I think you do not know how invasive cigarette smoke is to a non-smoking person. Us non-smokers are not "picking" on smokers but just asking for a compromise.

[Onan the Clumsy]

pilotpilot, good answer.

[MerchantVenturer]

Forgive the intrusion from a passenger but is not the air on the flight deck circulated and re-circulated around the aircraft?

If so would I be breathing in contaminated air in the event of a member of the flight crew smoking, or is the air filtered in some way to remove the filth?

[vertical speed]

MV-- yes you are partly right-- the degree of recirculation depands apon the model of 737. Passengers do notice the smell of cigarette smoke sometimes leaving the cabin cew with some difficult lies to tell!

My elation at the recent move by FR management over the smoking issue was short lived! My FOs tell me the bulk of smoking Captains have completely ignored the recent instruction (FCI). Maybe the next move will have to be sponsored addiction therapy by the company! Only yesterday I flew a 737 with an overflowing ashtray on the left side!

[DSR10]

As a sixty a day addict I used to light up and chain smoke as soon as I hit the cruise, the a/c was also equiped with an ashtray and lighter, aircon was by sliding back the canopy.
However I gave up two years ago and am very tolerent of smokers and how difficult it is, I still crave and if I was told my life was terminal I would be back on the B&H straight away.

[QNH 1013]

"the bulk of smoking captains have completely ignored the recent instruction".

This is frightening. What other rules do these captains think don't apply to them?

It doesn't say much for their command skills either if they are prepared to compromise the authority of their cabin staff who have to try and prevent the pax smoking.

The addiction does seem to affect the integrity of some smokers.

[TRF4EVR]

Alternately, perhaps it shows precisely the sort of "command authority" neccesary to fly a highly complex piece of equipment. To wit, the ability to sort out the important things from the niggling demands of a nattering nanny state mentality. :D

(*puff* *puff*)

[vertical speed]

TRF4EVR-- that is about the worst answer I've seen yet-- so you are suggesting that to be a good Captain one needs to be a totally selfish egocentric? Safety has improved in recent years - partly due to reduced cross-cockpit gradient-- where does your model Captain fit ?? Face it-- Smoking is Drug addiction and people need treatment-- forcing the side products of that addiction on another person does nothing to improve aircraft safety! In most countries smoking on aircraft at ANY time is illegal, so anyone continuing to smoke is breaking the law, quite apart from any related health issues!

[Flat-Spot]

Smoking on the flight deck, great idea if all the crew members smoke, then by all means smoke away. (In some companies, smoking in the cockpit is almost like being back behind the bike sheds at school all over again. And equally as risky!)
However, I have only one thing to state to all you smokers, ENSURE YOU CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELVES (ie empty the F*****G ashtrays), because cleaning up someone elses mess after a flight is revolting enough, let alone having to clean up your cigarette ends from the ashtrays. By the way, if you are flying with a non smoker, and you ask, "Do you mind if I smoke?" This is like asking your flight deck companion, "Do you mind if I take a S**T in my flight bag?" (and leave it there for the rest of the flight!) Yep, the smell of S**t is pretty much the same/as bad as the smell of burnt tobacco is to some people.
To conclude, CRM isn't just checklist and call outs!
Enjoy.

[TRF4EVR]

Well said flat-spot. I don't smoke around people (or at least professional acquaintances) that don't themselves light up, and so obviously I wouldn't "inflict" my "addiction" upon an FO (if I had one).

Having said that, I don't curb myself due to some dubious "health" issues that have yet to be proven by even the loosest definition of the word, and I take a rather dim view of the crusading ninnies of the world who take it upon themselves not only to classify any behavior that they don't themselves engage in as "dangerous" or "defective" in one way or another, but to see to it that these behaviors are eliminated post-haste "for the good of all".

How bout *you* face it vertical speed. An inquisitorial attitude backed up with suspect "facts" toward people that don't live their lives in lock-step with your personal preferences is a Serious Disease, and one that Requires Treatment.

[Jambo Buana]

To FMC apprentice and VS: I cannot believe that you don't have the balls to put your ideas to management. What are they going to do, fire you?

I hope that when and if you end up in the left seat that you learn to act responsibly and effectively when trying to deal with a problem instead of gossopping around like old ladies sowing seeds that serve to undermine what the rest of us are trying to achieve in Ryanair. Grow up and approach your manager! They do listen and they do read pprune!

[White Knight]

You MUST pass this info on guys - it's not acceptable to have to suffer someones elses cancer gas on the flightdeck:mad: :mad:
DSR 10 - I've never said this one to anyone on prune (although I've had my disagreements) but you are a Fu*kwit of the highest order. Other peoples smoke is VILE....

TRFwhatever - dubious health issues, you are a bit dim aren't you:confused: :confused: Your lungs are designed for AIR, not 40 different types of cancer inducing sh1te.

Smoking on the flightdeck is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Wake up to the 21st century.

[lost soul]

Jambo Buana! Your attitude is typical about what I hear from my friends in FR! It seems not to be an airline where people can safely raise issues of concern-- all the FO's I know there tell me that the best way to survive is to be invisible and I am sure that also goes for most Captains! One has only to look here on Pprune-- which major airline is not represented in the company forums? As far as I am aware there is no system in your airline to allow for anonymous discussion like that which occurs here?
In my company Flight Deck smoking died out years ago and I was surprised to read here that this is not the case at FR.
Assuming that you are management-- your tone suggests that- then now is the time to do something about it.

[nurjio]

Mark my words. It's only a matter of time....

[JW411]

I don't think I have heard so many holy rollers banging of on one thread since I discovered pprune. What a good and righteous bunch we have in aviation nowadays.

When I started my career in aviation everybody but everybody smoked on the flightdeck.

I have moved on from that and do not any longer allow smoking up front but I am just dreading the day when all these young clean holy rollers start trying to ban farting in the cockpit.

That will truly be the end.

[autoflight]

The company thinks it liability will be reduced by renewing the no smoking instruction. Perhaps they think the liability can be passed on to non complying captains. Should those concerned be more carefully considering their position? They could be invalidating relevant insurance by not informing insurance company of this situation. Even this PPRuNe post could be part of the evidence that they should have reasonably known their instruction is ignored. Its a bit unlikely that offending captains have valid insurance if a F/O takes civil action. Could they be in a position where savings, house, car and retirement funds are at risk?

[Jambo Buana]

Lost Soul; I am not a manager, but I do believe that the Flight Crew Instruction raised by CP on the subject is evidence that they do listen. It is another matter if one, or some of our colleagues decides to ignore an instruction from the CP. I guess their remedial therapy will be starting shortly at the job centre.
As for my attitude, it is a can do positive attitude of someone who loves flying, gets on with his job and doesn't think twice to tell management that they can do something better. I have been here for more than 6 years and things only get better. We are no longer just a bunch of paddy's taxiing too fast and flying on the barbers pole. I just wish that some of our guy's had the balls to put their point across directly to a manager rather than whimper on here. That's all.

[Rananim]

fmc apprentice,
Some sad answers to your original enquiry,esp from Airbus girl.Etiquete is that the smoker should ask if its okay before lighting up.You are then quite at liberty to say "Rather you didnt."That should be the end of it.
When I started flying many moons ago,I can assure you that neither the Captain or FE asked my permission to smoke.I didnt feel the need to whinge but everyone's different I guess.Times have changed and in todays politically-correct flt deck,you sound like you will fit in very nicely.If you ever decide to leave that lovely sceptred isle and seek a career as an expat pilot,I would watch the remarks about those nasty "foreigners" though.

[MidnightSpecial]

This reminds me of the Steve Martin comedy line when someone asks ,"Mind if I smoke?"

He replies, "Mind if I fart?"

Smokers don't get this joke.

MS

[Red 69]

As for DSR10 being a f*** wit I couldn't agree more. " Use the oxygen..." Cancer would be the least of his immediate worries!!:mad:

[Wedge]

Rananim, when you started flying medicine had not even begun to appreciate the dangers of passive smoking. What you view as 'PC whinging' I, and most others here, view as the basic right of employees to work in a safe and smoke-free environment. How many junior F/Os do you think would have the balls to say 'Rather you didn't' to a senior Captain? It should be the end of it as you say, but is it in practice?

The claim that 'we all did it in the good old days, therefore it must be OK' is complete nonsense. You might as well say it is OK to fly an aircraft blind drunk. Some of the older generation think it's OK to drive home slaughtered on booze because it was previously tolerated. Doesn't mean it was safe.

I find it ludicrous that Ryanair allow this kind of behaviour, and I hope this thread will mean management their get off their backsides and impose and enforce a blanket ban, for all the reasons given earlier - to summarise:

- Health risks to non-smoking flight deck crew
- The unpleasant smell and smoke in the tiny cockpit environment
- The absence of basic CRM in airline Captains who should know better
- The serious fire risks, in a place where fires are at best very dangerous and at worst lethal for hundreds
- The utter hypocrisy of banning all pax from smoking while allowing crew to smoke
- Any pilot who cannot safely perform his duties without nicotine in his veins should not hold a Class 1 (or should I say any pilot who can't fly without taking drugs, since that is what we are talking about)
- Ryanair's risk of being dragged into a multi-million pound litigation over a passive smoking related disease, in which the evidence would have to show only that the illness was on the balance of probabilities caused by long term exposure to passive smoking at work.


Good luck fmc-apprentice, hope you find that this thread filters back to your bosses. It will, they all read this site. Your unwillingness to speak up in the company context is quite understandable as a junior F/O, so it is fortunate that you have been able to draw attention to this problem anonymously here. Before the internet, I guess these grievances were just not voiced.

Edit - just read the rest of the thread, looks like management have already acted ;)

[Kaptin M]

Assuming that not only Ryanair management read these pages, but also other Ryanair employees, such as Captains and LAME's, how about giving some assistance to these guys.

Next time you find evidence of a smoker(s) having "done it" in the cockpit of an aircraft that you take over, why not make an entry in the Tech Log, eg, "Cockpit smells of cigarette smoke - please clean", or, "Ashtrays, side console, and floor covered in cigarette ash - request cleaning".

It worked here, for me :D

[John Barnes]

One of the easiest solutions is to finish your trip with the smoker and on return to home, or better even on your layover, report sick. Make it very clear to the medical authorties that your sickness is related to smoke exposure. Also let the company now why you reported sick. You be surprised how quick your problems are solved.

[Plastic Bug]

Bite Me.

Your anti smoking tirades are bizarre.

If two people in an enclosed enviroment can't get along and work out who smokes and who doesn't, that's too bad.

We do not need a law to mandate behaviour.

When you restrict one persons freedom, you restrict ALL persons freedom.

That is finite.

Today, smoking is bad. Where do you draw the line?

PB

[Fubaar]

I’ve carried the following in my wallet on a business card sized piece of cardboard. It’s damn near got me into a few fights in bars in the past, although I find that if it’s done with humour – making sure everyone in the circle gets to see it by passing it to someone other than the offender first – it normally draws a few laughs while getting the message across.

Cigarette smoke is the residue of your pleasure. It permeates the air and putrefies my hair and clothes, not to mention my lungs. This takes place without my consent. I have a pleasure also; I like a beer now and again. The residue from my pleasure is urine. With the greatest respect, wouldn’t you be just a little annoyed if I stood on a chair and pissed all over your clothes?

I suffered captains who smoked, usually getting out of my seat and staying the forward galley whenever they lit up. However, I didn’t have the cojones of one colleague who unstrapped and stepped from his seat at 15,000’ on descent into Heathrow when his heavily addicted captain lit up. When the startled captain asked what he was doing, he told him he had the choice –do without the ciggie or continuing the approach and landing on his own.

In the days when smoking was still allowed, absolutely no smoking on MY flight deck was one of the sweeter points of being a captain. Many of my FOs went down the back to indulge their habit, stinking of smoke when they returned.

[lost soul]

JB and Kaptin M-- you obviously have not had contact with pilots working for FR as I have. Anyone writing in the tech log for any reason other than a genuine engineering defect would be summoned to appear before the base captain and severely disciplined! As for taking sick leave when not actually at death's door? The same applies! From what I am told the reason nothing happens about the smoking problem is that it is seen as "whingeing" and the person complaining would just be told to shut up or get out! This is not your chummy old-fashioned airline of yore!

[wonderbusdriver]

What I used to do, when the guy lit up, especially without seriously asking:

Stay relaxed.
Do everything according to the book.
Look out to your right window.
Open up the air outlet near your right knee (the 732, 733 etc. had one there) all the way.
Without even looking at him, point the airstream right in his face, so that he gets the ashes all over him or even blow the cig out of his face.
Act like you didn´t even notice he was smoking, should he start complaining...

or:

Go and take a pee every time he starts to smoke....

[Airbus Girl]

Also, a word of warning. If the Company do get told that a Captain has been smoking and an investigation is carried out, beware - I was in this situation (Captain reported by junior Cabin Crew member (and later sacked)) - and I got summoned to HQ. They then tried to implicate me, asking me why I hadn't reported him smoking!!!! So be ready....

[moist]

These days it's so much easyer to alienate a smoker than it used to be in the past.
My advice is this - If you don't want to get your name involved, then just write to management anonymously, explaning the problem and that you obviously want to protect your identity.
Alternatively, canvass some other FO's and go to management with a number of you signing a letter.
This must be stopped!

[ADFS]

I am currently a smoker. Years ago i received an envelope full of ashes and butts from my chief pilot. Back then, i was told to CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF...and i learned the lesson.
Since then if my co-pilot is a non-smoker, I simply don´t smoke.
The scare fotos are out of place. We smoker/flyers are well aware of what damage we do by inhaling, and well aware of how irritating it surely is to you non-smokers.
But how about a look at the manufacturers;the governments that count on the taxes,the smoke/alcohol culture so cleverly let-off the hook...
I as a smoker, choose to smoke.
I as a smoker choose to give the non-smoker preference.
Very simple, but you radicals shouldn´t have it all your way either!

[AlienC]

Heaven forbid there should be a "smoking related incident" while a "Law Suit Happy U.S. Passenger" be onboard. Nothing will save you if it's an attorney on holiday, as well. :} :uhoh:

<Long time lurker, first time poster.... Please be gentle with me....

[Dani]

I read this thread with a mixture of disgust and horror. I always thought of Ryanair of a very good and "modern" company. What I read now is absolutely not understandable. I will never fly with this company. Smoking commanders are the smallest issue here. I am surprised that there has never been an accident/incident yet. What worries me most is that even when management is implying rules they are neighter followed nor checked... :eek:

[capt.magoo]

you sad lot specially you fms,go and report the smoker and stop feeling sorry for yourself.

in my company f/o report captains for reading a newspaper on the f/d or even increasing his cruise speed.
cabin crew report capt's and f/o for being too laid back or even smoking 100 meters away from the a/craft.

unfortunately the job has lost its appeal because of people like you trying to be .................?

best of luck

(a non smoker myself ):* :* :*

[A and C]

Magoo are you unfortunate enough to work for easyjet ?.

[calypso]

Possible answers to 'Do you mind if I smoke'

It is not so much wether I mind but I beleive it is illegal. You are the captain though so do as you please.

I find the question a bit confusing in the light of the recent Flight crew notice.

I beleive in SOP's and in doing things by the book so I rather you didn't.


this mght not work with some people, but then you must know which fights to win and which is better to let go. I beleive that everybody knows the dinosaurs and they always get their tea and bisquits in the end. You cannot combat bad CRM with more bad CRM.

I am pleased to say that the issue would not arise in my airline, thank god.

[411A]

Some years ago while working for a south asian airline, reported at dispatch to find the co-pilot madly puffing away on no less than two, and announcing his intentions to one and all that the recent directive to flight crew to not smoke on the flight deck, period, was nonsense. Smoking was still allowed in the cabin.

The dispatcher called the DFO and said co-pilot announced his opinions directly, IE: ..."it is my right to smoke".

The co-pilot was no more...replaced for the flight and employment terminated, forthwith.

[Andu]

411A, I wish I’d kept score of the number of your tales related to your captive audience here on Pprune that ended in “…and the FO in question was terminated.”

No guesses required as to who you’d be voting for on Oct 7th if you lived a tad west of where you say you live.

I’m of the rabidly anti-smoking persuasion, to the point where I avoid eating with cabin crew on overnights because I can’t handle the number who insist on lighting up, some even during the meal. As for appropriate replies to the dreaded question: “Do you mind if I smoke?”, my usual answer was “My dear, you can burst into flame as far as I’m concerned – but not here.”

Back in the days when smoking was still allowed on the flight deck in my current company, I had an almost surreal in cruise conversation with the airline’s CRM co-ordinator, who asked me, whilst puffing on a coffin nail, what I thought of the CRM programme. I said that I thought one of biggest failures in CRM I’d ever seen was the way smokers lit up in the cockpit when they knew their FOs found it distasteful.

His reply was classic “But I always make a point of keeping the cigarette as far away from the FO as possible.” And he actually did – ciggie in left hand, held almost up against the side window whenever it wasn’t in his mouth – and he actually believed this was saving me from breathing in his smoke.

Having a non smoking section in an aircraft cabin or restaurant is like having a non pissing end in a bathtub.

Edited for font size - and Staffer, I was expecting a reply along the lines of yours (below), but call me totally unsocial, but I find it difficult to enjoy my food while the young woman (the offender is almost always a female) is puffing away on a *** cigarette while i'm eating.

[Snowballs]

A filthy dirty habit that infringes on the rights of others that has no place in a modern workplace environment. If you had seen the outflow valves that were removed from DC-9 type aircraft when smoking was common place you would be shocked. Companies should enforce no smoking in airplanes rigidly or face litigation down the track as the community becomes more litigious.
I have worked for companies where crew were given the option, respect the non smoking rule or resign. All except the odd despot stopped smoking in aircraft.
:}

[strafer]

Andu,
I’m of the rabidly anti-smoking persuasion
I avoid eating with cabin crew on overnights
my usual answer was “My dear,...
I think I'd rather share the flight deck with a smoker...

[FlyboyBen]

Speaking as a non pilot but with awareness of Human Resource affairs, if a first officer or anyone else reports a Captain for smoking on the flight deck is consequently sacked then there is a strong case for unfair dismissal.

In any case, if the issue is reported to HR then they have to right to remain anonymous, therefore 'management' won't be able to dismiss them

[M.Mouse]

......is consequently sacked then there is a strong case for unfair dismissal.

Such touching naïvete.

[GlueBall]

What planet are you guys from? At my outfit smoking in the cockpit was totally outlawed. ...About TEN (10) years ago.

[411A]

'Gotta remember GlueBall...
Most of these guys are from Europe (and the UK, where they have just recently discovered Hoovers) and the anti-smoking brigade that had caught on so successfully on the western side of the great devide, is only just (more or less) established in the old country.

[flyer75]

ill never regret having a smoke at 28000ft in my metro with a night sunset ...nobody to bother just DHL boxes...
VIVA AMERICA
Flyer75

[strafer]

411A
Most of these guys are from Europe (and the UK, where they have just recently discovered Hoovers)
Would have been a good line if we hadn't actually invented vacuum cleaners.

Unless you meant the all-American J.Edgar?

[411A]

Yes I know strafer, a fine old English company.

Pity a few hotels that have 'em don't use 'em to vacuum up the ashes.
In no-smoking rooms yet....:oh:

[Tim_Q]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
......is consequently sacked then there is a strong case for unfair dismissal.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Such touching naïvete.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

:eek:

Are you people seriously saying that you risk loosing your job for complaining that a colleague is breaching regulations?

I find this very worrying. Like sombody has already pointed out, the flightdeck smoking (and seemingly powerless FOs) seems like a symptom of a more serious problem.
Also, I'm not particularly anti-smoking but why can't some smokers see how anti-social this is in such a confined environment? :confused:

[FlyboyBen]

"ill never regret having a smoke at 28000ft in my metro with a night sunset ...nobody to bother just DHL boxes..."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

You will regret it if some of the hot ash you guys carelessly flick away ends up behind you. Boxes are a lot more flammible than people!!!

[PA-28-180]

MidnightSpecial-good one, but it was George Carlin, not Steve Martin. :O

[flyer75]

Dear Flyboyben,

I appreciate your point of view but just as an info, we actually do no sit on the freight,its further back,far enough for no ash to fly there still red hot ,get under the net,find a highly flammable piece of mail...AND the all our metros were fitted with ashtrays...nice little silver ones below the pilots side windscreen...very convenient for long lonely night flights...


Tailwinds,

Flyer75

Oups I forgot to mention...when taking off at 6 in the morning, nothing better than your fav cd tune in one hear to enjoy with scenary of empty and clear skies while commuters get slowly but surely stuck into the first traffic jam of the day....
When safely in cruise add the second one and work disappears into a feeling of pure happiness...until the descent towards a crowded earth...

Flyer75

[FlyboyBen]

Dear Flyer75,

Arrogant cowboys, no-one needs them. How do you expect to hear things like TCAS when you are listening to your 'fav cd'???

[squire]

Interesting post but so long as your Government sells the farkin' things, and may I point out make a pretty penny, fark-off an talk to your MP.
Don't blame the poor sucker whose being raped by the corporates,government and supporting your health service with a drug thats sanctioned and distuributed for the last century. That said nicotine patches are available.

[flyer75]

F***in hey man...

Flyboyben....cowboy...me?..pretty close..used to fly from wyoming to jfk quite often...but left the buckle when i came back to europe..and the snowboards gloves as the thrust levers used to get my fingers stick to them because of the cold in winter dakotas...

Anyways..whats that bull about being arrogant...I had great fun flying that way...no A/P to have to discoonect,TCAS which was linked to the VSI(only one metro had it)was 80% broke anyways...

If you fly pal look out the WINDOW,its much more fun and you may enjoy your flying..

I used my cd as the AM frequencies gave me mostly country music and some Elvis...which is nice and calming when coming back on sat morning but before an ils to the deck..that is 100ft RAD ALT for us,at 200ft we look ,at 150 we start adding power and 100ft if nothing around were out of there...works pretty well...used friends to come with me to look out the window,much easier than looking up and down all the time...thats what friends or gfriends are for...

Anywas ,i presume you are english....go somewhere do some single pilot freight or bush flying youll fart better...

Flyer75

[skinteastwood]

Just highlights some people's naivity; I had no idea that smoking still continued on the flight deck. As a passenger I just assumed that the entire plane would be non-smoking. In fact, the flight deck ESPECIALLY so.

Anyway, to add my thoughts, I am a smoker but would hate to work in such confined quarters with somebody chuffing away. Wouldn't light up myself or expect anyone else to. I might sound hypocritical but there is a time and a place.

Having said that, I'm flying Ryanair in a few months time, do you think the captain would mind if I nip up to the cockpit to have a smoke with my Stella?

[flyer75]

Dear Passenger,

You are now boarding "FreightDogAnonymous". Thank you for joining us today..the weather in Fargo will be somewhat chilly with gusts to 40 kts and temps of -40C.

As I operate alone, any PAX is welcome to coma and visit for a fag.
Please let me remind you to keep your seatbelt fastened for unexpected turbulence along the way and C172 f*** around the terminal area...
If you have a Stella you can always drink but i will to decline any offers as im short legged and so seated less than 8 inches from the "throttle"

If you have any questions about your Ryan Air flight/pilots, you may enter their website but may have to pay their fee of 30 GB even if you are rated on the ship.

Hope you enjoy your flight with captain "RED EYE" today...

By the way he needs some coffee,1 milk,2 sugars...

Tailwinds,

Flyer75

[flyer75]

Marlboro lights to be exact....

While i have not a doubt in my mind that cigarettes are a BAD BAD thing....I do go to the gym,which I know wont cure a potential cancer....(smoking 10 a day since 4 years,i believei still ahve time to quit).
You boys will understand that freight flying includes being woken up at 3 in the morning to drive through a blizzard,load the freight ,fuel the plane and hope the airport manager doesnt close the snowy runway just before you t/o...he closed as I rotated actually ..funny huhh...anyways point is having a cig right after waking up put my mind into gear and somehow woke me up...i like a casual smoke and enjoyed doing it in the ship...the owner was the first to do it and the mechs were just bothered if we forgot to empty the ashtrays...

Capito?

[strafer]

Waits for the droves of agitated smokers to start defending their habits by calling names and refuting REAL research!
Dr Phil - would that be research by real doctors or ones who simply put a Dr in front of their name?
BTW, you wouldn't be an ex-heavyweight boxer writing this in a room with rubber walls would you? You need to calm down mate - have a fag.

[Propflop]

Sorry to hear the problem still goes on. I had the same problem on the Herc Fleet some years ago. My solution was to go off the flight deck until they stopped smoking, until two older guys(bullies) lit up King Teds.I stayed off the flight deck for 45 minutes, made them work for a living balancing the fuel etc, though i did have my headset on down the back. Only to be reported to my boss when we arrived back at base! Got a right roasting over it. RHIP. Though I,d like to meet them in a pub now! the contents of my pint may not stay in the glass too long.
I hope you remember this Bill and Al, you made my life a misery.

[Memetic]

Perhaps you could make your point by a request to have the smoke in cockpit check list modified to include, "request fight deck crew to extinguish smoking materials then recheck for smoke"

Had you not indicated you wanted to keep your job i'd have just suggestted initiating the existing check list everytime somone lights up. Afterall, can you be sure the only source of smoke is the cigarette? :}

Good luck getting this resolved.

[Mowgli]

What a lovely post! Sure to attract well meaning replies about the risks of smoking, litigation, foul smelling flight decks, drug addicted pilots - fantastic!

I've never flown with anyone with the balls to light up in the flight deck,. In fact, I think I only know of 2 Capts who smoke.

I used to smoke, but for sensible reasons I gave it up - not an easy thing to do but it's going well so far - 6 months.

When I used to smoke in the car I was always worried about it smelling afterwards so I used to crack the window open - maybe the you should ask the capt to do that.

But seriously, it isn't going to be long before the smoking pilots will all have gone, or failed their medicals, so it might help your promotion prospects if they smoke. Go and buy them a packet of woodbines! You are experiencing a piece of history - a smelly one, and bad for you I admit - but it's something to tell your grandchildren about. You're probably damaging yourself worrying about it. Chill out.

[lost soul]

Mowgli-- you have obviously forgotten what it is like to sit in the tiny 737 flight-deck with THREE others puffing away!! The FO's who began this thread tell me that this still happens! The argument put out by those who tolerate it is that these captains have been smoking for years and could not operate otherwise! From the amount of ash I still see around the nose-steering wheel it hasn't abated yet! I'm told that one particular gent doesn't even go through the pretence of asking first! I spent many years as an FO with a well known UK airline where most of the Captains smoked all the time and not just cigarettes but cigars and pipes! I hated it and suffered more coughs and colds than I ever do now-- but that was over 15 years ago! Times have changed or haven't they?

[Lawyerboy]

So, this is the way it works, is it?

Captains can do whatever they like, first officers cower in the right hand seat putting up with all sorts of nonsense for the first part of their career until they get promoted to the exhalted position of captain at which point they can do whatever they like and their own first officers have to cower in the right hand seat putting up with all sorts of nonsense until they get promoted....and so on and on.

I cannot believe - perhaps simply don't wish to believe - that airlines foster a culture of laissez faire and cover your arse. Are you all seriously trying to tell me that the industry is in such a state that a first officer (someone who, I'd quite like to think, is well educated, professional and with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together) would be too intimidated to report serious breaches of SOPs and of the law? Do they really run the risk of dismissal for dealing - professionaly - with someone who endangers the aircraft?

You're all having a laugh. Must be.

[teedub]

just leave the cockpit when old smokey lites up!!..probably most airlines have a post 911 requirement to replace a crewmember with a flight attendant when one leaves....you don't get smelly, he gets to smoke, and a step or two closer to the flight ops office if the f/a cops him in...which is all self imposed!!......unless of course the f/a likes a puff up stairs, but you're not in the cockpit so who cares.....

[Flying Lawyer]

Lawyerboy
"..... serious breaches of SOPs and of the law" ? "..... someone who endangers the aircraft" ?
:confused:

"Do they really run the risk of dismissal .... etc?"

No. They run the risk of getting on the wrong side of someone whose support/favourable comments they may need in due course. Or of being regarded as someone who reports colleagues for relatively minor breaches of SOPs - depending upon your point of view.

"the industry in such a state"?
Is it so very different from the position of young lawyers (also "well educated, professional and with more than a couple of brain cells to rub together") starting out on their careers?

[POMpous]

Flying Lawyer

It is my honour to point out that yr a pratt of the highest order.

smoking on the flight deck a "minor point"?

Plus, why all the debate about should or shouldn't people smoke on the flight deck? SOP's will state that smoking is not allowed so.........(and here's the tricky bit) SMOKING IS NOT ALLOWED!

Am just waiting for this subject to appear in the national press. Yet another kick for aviation. Well done ryanair

[Lawyerboy]

FL - as it happens, yes I do think it is different.

If I make a mistake, someone will lose money. I may lose my job over it, if it is serious enough.

If a commercial pilot makes a mistake there is a risk that someone will lose their life.

The fact that there appears - to an outside at least - to be a culture of 'no no, better not say anything for fear of hurting my career prospects' in the airline industry is a cause for concern. Let us, for the sake of argument, suppose that smoking on the flight deck is a relatively minor infraction (and for the record I do not think it is); if the public at large become aware that certain flight crew can breach such minor regulations and break the law whenever they, in their infinite wisdom, think it appropriate to do so what confidence can the public have that flight crew won't go around breaching more important regulations? Sticking rigidly to SIDs, for example, or not drinking within the 8 hour 'bottle to throttle' window.

The fact is that those who light up in the cockpit aren't Dan Dare types who with a wink and a slap of the thigh can say 'to hell with the book, I'm going to do it my way!' and run off to defend God and the American Way coming back to a hero's welcome. They are professional pilots who are breaking the law and endangering their aircraft and the lives of those in it and under it. But the fact that there are those of you out there with commercial licences who say either 'leave well alone, or who knows what might happen to your career prospects,' or even worse 'leave well alone, you miserable tree huggers,' frankly astonishes me.

[strafer]

It's a relief to me that I won't have to pay for that MCC course after all. I just have to be weak enough to meekly accept an overbearing, rule breaking captain until it's my turn to be one myself.


Edited for extra sarcasm

[watergate]

Just a thought - but the clever guy who starts "Smokers Airline" must be able to make a fortune. ;)

[flyer75]

Shall we call that airline.."fagair" or "cigair"?

[behind_the_second_midland]

Andu

I thought everone like you had retired?

[Flying Bean]

Very Interesting Thread!!
As an occassional SLF and pilot I thought I would do a very strange thing. I will actually ask Ryanair, as a concerned SLF, wether smoking is permitted on the flight deck!!!
So - into the web site to find a way of contacting Ryanair to ask this very reasonable question.
Well 2 hours later and 3 international calls from South Africa, I learn that it is VERY DIFFICULT to complain or even ask Ryanair a question. The web site will tell you just about everything up to frying eggs on the wing, but to make a complaint???
Anyway it appears the only way to ask the question is by writting by post to HQ in Dublin. No email. No fax. No phone call.
Write and pop it in the ole post box.
So that is what I shall do. Look for my reply on Pprune in about 2 months if at all!!:* :(

[Tower]

Flying bean I think you need to get out more!!

[michael744]

Amazing series of replies on these 8 pages. I find it hard to understand why anyone would put up with smoking in the cockpit if there is a policy forbidding it. If you are a f/o or s/o use your CRM to explain the situation(stop or I am leaving at the next opportunity) to them and if they do begin to smoke then suffer through that flight and when the next landing takes place get off and call flt ops/crew schedules and asked to be replaced as smoke in the cockpit brings about allergies that may impact the safety of the flight. If it the f/o or s/o that smokes regardless inform him he will be removed from the flight at the next opportunity. In my 36 years career it has been my experience that those who flaunt one rule usually disregard others as well. Some of the SOPA for example, that can result in a lessening of flight safety. People who smoke in the cockpit against the policy are saying a lot about themselves, their character and how they deal with life in general....dishonestly. Get them out of the cockpit if they insist on smoking. I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.

[BEagle]

Not often that I find myself agreeing 100% with a post from your side of the pond, michael744, but you're absolutely correct on this.:ok:

Ever thought of standing for President? Your country would greatly benefit from leadership with such positive messages!;)

[justanotherflyer]

In my 36 years career it has been my experience that those who flaunt one rule usually disregard others as well.

Exactly, michael744.

Surely this is the central issue in this whole discussion.

[trium16]

I know nothing about Ryanair but I cannot imagine they would fire someone for removing themselves from flight duty because their abilities are compromised by a smoker in the cockpit.

People have been fired by MOL for less!

Corrected for spelling error!

[Mindthegap]

trium16

Who is MOR???

[Memetic]

He would be CEO of Ryanair.

MOL (http://www.google.com/custom?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&cof=&q=%22Michael+O%27Leary%22+ryanair)

But I don't know who MOR is...

[MTOW]

I'm assuming that "behind_the_second_midland" and the other poster who criticized 'Andu' for his remarks are both smokers who find it unreasonable when people object to sharing their filthy habit in the close confines of a cockpit or in a restaurant.

After suffering all too many (like 'Andu', usually young female) FAs who insist on smoking while I'm trying to eat, I'm with you 100%, 'Andu'. I've asked a couple if they'd think it strange if someone wrapped a belt around their arm and produced a needle and started hitting up at the dinner table.

[strafer]

MTOW,

while I agree that 'suffering' the company of young, female FAs whilst eating at a restaurant must be a form of living hell :rolleyes: I don't think this thread is primarily about smokers. There are many habits which others find annoying (intolerant whingeing for example). As far as I'm concerned the CRM issues are more important -the Captain who seems to think that SOPs are for other people and the FO who's too weak to question him.

Strafer (ex-smoker).

[MTOW]

I'd have to agree with you, 'strafer', that my post wasn't addressing the main point of the thread. But I was answering the posts of the two people who took exception to 'Andu's' comment.

As for 'suffering' the company of young females at dinner on overnights, I think too many people writing in on these serious issues write from the life they'd like to think they enjoy as (virtual?) airline pilots rather from any experience they actually 'enjoy' in the real world. Someone smoking while you try to eat a meal is pain in the proverbial, no matter how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be.

Back to the point of the thread, I agree that the most junior FO should be able to complain. However, I remember all too clearly from my time as an FO that too many companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint, particularly over a matter as emotive as smoking. Anyone who doesn't believe that should only take a lok at how many posts this thread has generated.

[strafer]

I think you've hit the nail on the head MTOW, the point about companies have an unofficial corporate culture that inhibits a junior crewmember from making a valid complaint is, I think, the main point of concern. This is something which has contributed to crashes in the past and unless addressed, will do so in the future.

Ps the level of 'how eye-pleasing the package that someone may (or may not) come in might be' does make a difference to me. But then I'm easily led.

[Douglas Bader]

I think he'll say something like "Open the window if you don't like it"
I do see your point, must be like sitting in a cupboard with a load of smokers

[RatherBeFlying]

Smoking ban good for the heart: study
Last Updated Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:56:15
Copyright CBC

CHICAGO - Heart attacks in a Montana city were cut in half after an indoor smoking ban came into effect.


Dr. Richard Sargent and Dr. Robert Shepard presented their study in Chicago at a meeting of the American College of Cardiology.

The doctors say their study was the first to investigate what happens to public health when people stop smoking in public places.

"I'm glad someone finally noticed it," said Shepard. "This has probably been going on in every other community with a smoking ban."

The city of Helena, pop. 26,000, adopted a smoking ban last June and was in effect until December, when a legal challenge forced town council to drop the ban.

In that period, hospital admissions for heart attacks dropped from seven every month to three.

Both doctors are strong advocates of smoking bans. They say the Helena experience offers a clear indication that the change reduces the risk of heart attacks for smokers and non-smokers.

The American Heart Association says 35,000 non-smokers die each year from the effects of second-hand smoke. Smoke can trigger heart attacks because it raises blood pressure, increasing the risk of blood clots.

The study found:
heart attacks dropped 75 per cent for smokers
67 per cent for former smokers
50 per cent for smokers

The doctors tracked heart attacks over the past four years in the area and compared it to the smoking ban period.

Shepard says the study needs to be replicated in a larger city like New York. The state of New York just imposed a ban on indoor smoking.

[strafer]

I'm an ex-smoker so have no agenda to push, but the above report is not medically sound.

1) Smoking might do a whole lot of nasty things to your body, but one thing it doesn't do is affect blood pressure.
2) A survey based on a drop from 7 to 3, is no kind of survey at all, especially when the biggest cause of heart attacks in the US (and UK) is diet (or lack thereof).
3) Smoking can contribute to heart disease over time, but accidently sniffing someone's second-hand Marlboro will not give you a heart attack. A six month public space ban would make no difference to anyone (medically, that is).

Beware of the banners. They're not doing it to help your health, they're doing it beacuse they don't like you enjoying it. And what you like, may well be next.

[fmc_apprentice]

Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing! The main culprits have totally ignored the restated ban and so far FR have done nothing to enforce it! I think it will need smoke alarms on the flight-deck connected to the FDR for any real change. Oh well, better buy my own oxygen bottle and mask! Thanks to all my supporters!

[RatherBeFlying]

Strafer,

Agreed that a drop from 7 to 3 from one month to the next would have limited statistical significance, but when a monthly rate falls like that over a six month period the statistical significance is major.

[GrantT]

"Well all this has been very interesting but my hopes of being able to work in a smoke-free flight-deck have come to nothing!"

Have you actually tried to do something about this fmc_apprentice other than moan on an anonymous forum? :rolleyes:

[fernytickles]

Gripping reading!

Flying bean - Good on you! I guess there's no answer so far?

FMC - how about writing a CHIRP? I've no idea how effective they are, but in the long, cold winters here, they make for almost as good reading as pprune!

I sympathise - its a horrible situation to be in, but the smoking pilots are breaking the rules just as much as the drinking, or late arriving, or non-SOP ones. Tough decision, but if you are going to make a stand sooner is better than later. Are there any other senior captains whose advice you can seek?

[Fubaar]

fmc_app, you say you'll have to get your own oxy bottle. Why? Use the aircraft (crew) bottle and mask every time the idiot(s) light up and then explain if asked why they the crew oxy has to be replenished as often as it does. I can guarantee the accountants will buy into that argument very quickly when an aircraft is delayed on turnaround for oxy replenishment.

This of course conveniently avoids the rather important safety issue of someone smoking within two feet of an oxy mask in use. (I used to fly with a fellow who had once removed his oxy mask to take a quick drag on a coffin nail. He had a very spectacular burn scar covering half his face and very nearly lost an eye in the explosion that proved oxygen and naked flames don't go well together.)

You seem to feel strongly on this matter. If that's the case, the fact is, it isn't going to go away until you make a very public stand WITHIN your airline on the issue. If you're not willing to make such a stand, stop complaining and suffer on in silence.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

All those people criticizing fmc_apprentice are just not getting it. The reason he has to speak here anonymously is that he fears Ryanair would sack him if he made a big deal. Whether they would or not is open to debate, but as others have remarked earlier, in order to advance up the airline system you need the right mates at the right time. If he is seen as a 'splitter' then nothing needs to be said - he will just fail an LPC or a Line Check one day. He would therefore by definition be 'incompetent' as a pilot and he is finished - it is that easy.

I have to say I am simply astonished at this thread - I simply did not know there were any credible airlines in the world who would tolerate this situation. I am even more astonished to find out that Ryanair, having been embarrassed by this thread into re-iterating the no smoking ban, are tolerating the flagrant abuse of it in the last few days. The issue is not health or smoking per se, however important that may be. It is that a company rule, despite being re-issued is being overtly disregarded with impunity. This is simply unacceptable in any airline and is a clear indicator that company rules at Ryanair are open to 'interpretation' and if necessary disobedience if the expedient of the situation demands. Is there no manager at Ryanair who has the courage to deal with this? This is not the problem of a few highly strung F/Os - this is a major management issue.

All you managers at Ryanair - are you going to enforce your own rules or not? This whole situation is reminiscent of those yobs who get nicked for throwing bricks over bridges and killing swans - there is no one more surprised than them that the swans were hit as they were sure they would get out of the way. No doubt you will be utterly surprised when some far more disastrous incident occurs to a Ryanair aircract. After all, how could it have happened - there were clear rules that if followed would have prevented it.

[johnpilot]

FMC apprentice, as you know safety reports are confidential and do not require you to reveal your identity. I agree with you that flying with someone that smokes does not make a pleasant day, and although he/she may ask you if you mind, they realy do not mean it, with the exeption of one gentleman.
My suggestion to you is put in the reports and do it frequently. You will be surprised as to who reads these.
If in a months time they have not taken action, I would be surprised..., but you can always come back here and tell us that it did not work.
On the other hand if you do not have the guts to put in an anonymous report I have no sympathy for your predicament.
JP:D

[virgin]

I don't smoke and think it's not on tp smoke in the cockpit for several reasons. It's against the rules, smokers are now a minority, and many nonsmokers have strong objections to smoke around them. (I don't think it's a flight safety issue but that's not the debate here so I won't go into that.)

The sympathy I'd have had for fmc_apprentice disappeared because of his atitude. He all but identifed his company in his first post and if that wasn't bad enough he then went all the way. All this on a public forum.
There are lots of ways he could have sorted this out without revealing his own ID and without damaging his company. He hides behind the anonymity we all have on Prune but he has no quarms about naming his company.
He's got no loyalty and if he gets weeded out for any reason they'll be better off with one less whinger who's prepared to damage the company image for his own ends.
He's the pain in the butt type who'll always find something to whinge about. If it wasn't this it would be something else.
I wouldn't want to work with him.

NSF
Just because people don't agree with your point of view doesn't mean they're not "getting it".

[Brickie]

F...A my sympathy. Difficult situation as new F/Os. You guys really have Eastern Bloc pilots based in UK, and working for an Irish (EU) company?

[Stockpicker]

Virgin, I think you're being unduly harsh. The identity of the airline was relevant information if fmc was to find out how prevalent the problem was in the industry. I'm only SLF, but have experience of HR issues and while it's important for junior staff to have confidential reporting lines for whistle-blowing, the fact is few really exist. There are also sadly few managers in ANY industry who can hand-on-heart say that they are not subsequently prejudiced against a junior who criticises them openly. Maybe, on occasion, the junior has tact and diplomacy beyond what would be expected at his stage in his career, and maybe, on occasion, the manager is able to take a criticism as a professional not a personal issue, and maybe, on occasion, the two have a sufficiently strong rapport for the issue to be cleared up between the two of them. For the rest of the time, it's up to the company to provide the means for the complaint to be made.

[Flying Bean]

A Response from Ryanair!!!

First an apology to Ryanair. I faxed them my ‘complaint’ on the 4th October. They actually responded on the 8th October. Unfortunately they answered by post so I only received their reply here in Darkest Africa on the 29th Oct. But full marks for a quick response. I apologise for thinking they did’nt care!!

The relevant part of my letter to Ryanair was as follows:-

“is smoking allowed on the flight deck of the Ryanair aircraft by the crew or anyone else for that matter?
There is a debate on the internet at the moment on this subject and we are under the impression that smoking was prohibited throughout the aircraft, not just the cabin”

I reproduce the exact text of their reply:-

QUOTE

Without Prejudice

Dear Sir,
Thank you for your fax dated 4th October 2003

I have noted your comments and would like to advise that you may not smoke in any part of the aircraft operated by Ryanair. Failure to adhere to this regulation may result in severe criminal penalties being brought against you as well as a disruption fee of 1000 Euros (or equivalent) being charged against you by Ryanair.

Should you require any further information please do not hesitate to contact me at the above address.

Yours sincerely

Maureen Noonan
Customer Standard Executive”

UNQUOTE

Quite an emphatic reply. Little bit disingenuous in that it tells me that “you” may not do, as opposed to the crew, but clear enough.

So FMC Apprentice I suggest you do a few dozen copies of this letter and leave them ‘lying around’ in the various flight decks you occupy or even drop a line to Maureen. After all she is an executive of the airline!! ( I will drop you a Private Message)

By the way. I copied my original letter to SAA here in South Africa asking them to also confirm that there was No Smoking on their flight decks. No reply so far despite 3 follow up faxes.:ok:

[foundation digger]

The problem this individual is having sums up the Industry.

Even the most reasonable of compaints or constructive comments may result in the end of career.

The amazing response to this good post proves the point.

If the pax cant smoke the crew cant.

Captains who dont understand this problem should not be captains.

But all this is the tip of the iceberg, there is so much more that goes on in this industry which the approval process fails to regulate.

[hostie]

F/a
I do feel sorry for you,
but more importantly I do worry about the CRM implications

Tenerife - (and we all know that it is still the highest number of fatalities in an aircraft accident )
happened because the FO felt he could not speak out and tell the Captain that he was wrong.

Please tell me we're not reverting back to those days!

This could be the start of something that could become much more serious.

It's just like being back at school the bullies that break the rules still shouldn't be allowed to get away with it. Go tell the teacher!

And let's face it, this is your health they're affecting, if they were flying in an unsafe manner, I'm sure everyone would be quick to report them then.

:(

[G-Foxtrot Oscar 69]

pHow about asking the smoking Left Hander to what age they hopes to gain a Class 1 Med? I guess they will end up teaching the IR in the FNPT2. They look about 70 then you find out they are 45.

I guess you could also ask them to cast theor mind back to their Sim instructor? that should do the trick;)

Seriously though if there are several of you you could get together and send the same unsigned letter to HR at the same time.

I used to work in a smoking office just outside London. I have an extremly bad reaction to smoke as it makes me feel cr:mad:p for about 3 days so objected. I found out several others felt the same. We wrote a letter and printed off several; copies then sent them via the same local post office to HR. Worked a treat.

Pi:mad: sed off the smokers mind:D

[desafinado]

This has turned into a big anti-smoker-campaign. Too strong a deodorant, chewing gum etc. might be next (at least on pprune…)? As annoying and unpleasant as one or the other thing might be for us, maybe we can try to be a bit more tolerant? And if the situation does become unbearable –as in this case it clearly does- and you are in the right, you have to do something about it and stand up for yourself. If you don’t, and all you can manage is moan, maybe even your right hand seat is too big for you?

Happy flying, might see you all in the pub (smoke free, of course!).

[Captain Phaedrus]

...and no-one has yet mentioned other flight decks, in which you will still find smoking pilots...

CLUE 1: Could it be a LoCo thing?

That aside, this whole debate indicates the petty depths to which pilots have sunk. This, of course, is a consequence of the manner in which they are 'managed', and is indicated by the number of 'career FOs in companies without seniority lists.

CLUE 2 The 'other' LoCo airline has no seniority list, and plenty of 'career' FOs who have done nothing more than stand by what they thought was right at one time or another (Most of them potentially very competent commanders, held back by appallingly twisted management).

Absolutely disgraceful.

[Flying Bean]

Further Letter from Ryanair!!!

On requesting clarification Ryanair replied as follows:-

QUOTE

30th Oct 2004

Thank you for your letter dated 4th October.
I can advise that Ryanair do operate non-smoking flights only, which includes the flight deck.
Trusting I have answered your query
Yours sincerly

Andrew Leonard
Customer Standards Supervisor

UNQUOTE

I have replied, thanking them for their clarification, but referring to Pprune and the potential CRM problem that 'appears' to be arising within their organisation. We await their response with interest.

FMC_apprentice. A while since we heard from you?? Any ripples in your world.

[fernytickles]

Flying Bean

It sounds like your pro-active reaction to FMC-apprentice's email should have some effect, assuming the Chief Pilot chooses to look at pprune!
Its a very sad state of affairs when anyone, be it captain, FO, C/A, engineer or ground staff feel they cannot make an honest and justifiable complaint without jeopardising their career.
CRM is great, and most effective on those who least need it - the more thick skinned ones will always be thick skinned whatever you do - hopefully CRM will have at least some effect on them.....:hmm:

[Flying Lawyer]

I was quite impressed when Ryanair took the trouble to respond to Flying Bean's first letter. Now they've responded yet again. Either they're a good-natured bunch with infinite patience, or they're playing safe in case it's some tabloid journo trying to create a story.
Now they've given an answer, and clarified it on request, they'd be unwise to respond again.

If they take up FB's invitation to look at Pprune, I wonder what they'll make of one of their pilots naming them and washing their (alleged) dirty linen in public. Like some others, I don't understand why FMC couldn't have asked Pruners' advice on how to deal with what he considers to be a problem without naming his company on the most widely read forum of a public web site.

[Alty Meter]

135 posts. :rolleyes:
Some little whinger who's not big enough or hasn't got the wit to sort out problems for himself comes running to Prune and the thread's running like a soap opera. What a load of old women it's attracted. Now we've got Bouncing Bean writing to the company. 'So I said' and 'They said' so 'I said'. Can't wait for the next episode. This has to be one of the most stupid threads on what's usually a fantastic web site.
Rumours & News?? :*
FCA-whinger's lucky the Mods didn't move it to Jetblast or the Agony Aunt forum ages ago.

Non-smoker, BTW.

[Wizofoz]

Non-smoker, BTW.

With an attitude like yours, I only hope you are a non-PIC as well!

[SimplyFO]

In my opinion this is not about smoking . This is about mutual love between people of two nationalities . Another chance to say b..t about ' Irish mob' .

I am at same position as FMC apprentice .
The problem does exist but not to such extent . 20% smoking captains - this is just 10 times more that I have seen in 3 years .:ok:

If it worries you so much FMC Apprentice do have guts to say something . Why are you crying here ? I know people who have never tolerated smoking in RYR . They are still alive . They have successfull career if career is so important for you .

What you have said about Eastern bloc pilots ( I do not really know what you mean by that ) is just so familiar example of racism .

If you have passed you HP exam with 100% mark and attended all your CRM courses - this is still not enough to understand what it is all about .

[Flying Bean]

Yes. I do have confirmation that my letters, but also more importantly, the PPrune discussion, has penetrated through to the Ryanair Management. It will be interesting to see if we hear of any postive reaction!!
Power to PPrune!!!

[wellthis]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I offer this to the discussion: Smoking onboard is unsafe, that's why it was abandoned. Furthermore, it is against most federal laws to smoke onboard, hence the briefing upon boarding and all the verbal and visual cues on the plane.
What kind of example would the crew set if they smoked themselves, especialy the commender of the ship! Do as I say and not as I do?

It is also unhealthy as both first and second hand smoking are known cause of cancer. If one wants to smoke his life away that's one's choice, but one should not force others to smoke with him in a little cell called the flight deck!

Just a friendly note for those that still think they are above the law: YOU'RE NOT, STOP SMOKING ONBOARD!!

[Alty Meter]

So Ryanair management is reading this. That's what fmc_apprentice wanted and with a bit of help from his meddling friend with too much time on his hands, that's what he's got. Success. Maybe, as long as they don’t work out who he is. He was worried they wouldn't like him complaining about smoking captains, they're not going to be too pleased about him slagging off the company in public AND threatening to go to the newspapers.
I'm sorry, there's something very fishy about all this. Perhaps there's a smoking problem but I think fmc's got another agenda. Yeah, I know, I'm going barmy in my old age.
Everyone takes his 'F/O starting out' story as true, but perhaps it's not. Mystery man 'fmc' started this topic. Why mystery man? He ain't posted before, and only once on one other thread since, about the agency he's "been told" is best for Captains wanting to get into Ryannair. Funny that.
Is there another username who says he supports him AND knows a lot of detail about Ryannair AND keeps pretending it's friends telling him things. You can say friends told you but you can't afford to slip up and say something you've seen yourself if you've made out it's another company's cockpit. And if this other person is also slagging off the company could he and fmc be the same person. Mad theory?
What if in one year this second guy who says he doesn't work for Ryanair has gone from asking questions about jobs with the company to telling people how to play interviews and then saying he's been "told" what experienced F/O's get a month.
It couldn't be they're the same person. Course not. It couldn't possibly be a captain or experienced F/O who left somewhere like let's say Channel Express who's found out the grass ain't always greener and has got a grudge against his company or someone there. Course not, as I said I'm just going barmy in my old age.

[Taking Over, Nigel]

Alty Meter, do you also believe that JFK was murdered by the CIA and a conspiracy covered it all up?
To those (few) giving fmc apprentice a hard time, I say go jump.
I had to put up with chain-smokers on 747 classics in our company many years ago. It turned a pleasant trip into total misery! Thankfully smoking was totally banned on our flightdecks about ten years ago.
If you are one of the many smokers who smoke in public places (bars, restaurants etc. ) then I say " Rot in hell!"
You smokers are (often) arrogant, rude, inconsiderate and a whole lot more. Just by smoking in public places you are proving this!! (I am NOT directing this at smokers who only smoke away from others!)
A huge majority of people feel as I do but unlike you most are
too polite to say something which may offend. I have had two restaurant meals ruined in the last two weeks by smokers!

If this is true about Ryanair (and I suspect it is!) then I am apalled that any (western) airline has such disgusting work practices.
I hereby award Ryanair the "Dirty Ashtray Award". I hope the lawyers hound them on this issue- I normally can't tolerate the mentality of "sue, sue , sue" but here it is justified,
TOTALLY justified.
Good luck fmc apprentice- I can really empathasize with you.

[flapless]

My god Nigel calm down, there are much worse things in life to get upset about.
If you keep this up, it ill be your heart failing rather than your lungs from second hand smoke.

[skinteastwood]

"arrogant, rude, inconsiderate and a whole lot more"

Hmmmmm. Sounds familiar.

[Dotmi]

Maybe you should start smoking...

[Taking Over, Nigel]

Yeh, calm down???
The point is that, ( ignoring health effects ) for most non smokers, being forced to breath someone else's smoke is about as pleasant as being forced to breath someone else's really foul farts continuously.
If I sat next to you in a confined space constantly passing the most foul and smelly farts imaginable- don't you think you might get a little upset.... just a little.
Yet smokers don't seem to realze just how objectionable their smoke is...
They also don't seem (or don't want) to realize that stubbing their butts out on the sidewalk is littering.
I think I have every right to get upset about it all.

The other night I was in a pleasant little bar with about a dozen people. (mostly pilots and spouses) We were having an enjoyable and quiet drink/discussion, when in came three smokers who all lit up... one a cigar. Every single one of our group hated the smoke.... and so ten minutes later we moved on. Nothing was said to the smokers as it's "their right to smoke"! Maybe I should be allowed to take a cannister of rotten egg gas into a bar or restaurant and let it off!- my "right!"
I think I'd be abused and chucked out- what's the difference?
:(

[yachtpilot]

Hopefully in the not too distant future smoking will be on a par with homosexual practises...
Allowed only between consenting adults and behind locked doors...

[411A]

Hey there, Taking Over Nigel,

Let me know which bar that was, will bring along a nice Cuban cigar...just for you.

A bar ain't the flight deck.
Suspect you don't know the difference...:p

[Groundloop]

Smokers are drug addicts, plain and simple!!! The sooner they realise it the better for them as they may seek treatment.

Before anyone starts shooting me down look at some comparisons.

Heroin is addictive and it can kill you.
Smoking is addictive and it can kill you.

ie what's the difference.

Anyone who still thinks smokers don't have problems just look at the poor sods huddled outside office buildings in the pouring rain (or blizzard), freezing cold and puffing away on their little white sticks. If that doesn't tell them they have an addiction and a problem, nothing will.

Off course, anyone who is a smoker and reads this will deny all of it. (Another classic drug addict sympton).

PS In case you hadn't noticed, people who smoke in confined public spaces really p*ss me off.

PPS Why are the only free seats on a rush hour train in the smoking comparment?

[Tralfamadore]

"Heroin is addictive and it can kill you.
Smoking is addictive and it can kill you.

ie what's the difference."


That's a bit twee - Heroin is a class A drug that people kill to deal in and purchase, there ends the difference. Alcohol has more in common with Heroin - and a few unsocial side effects too.

[yachtpilot]

The differnce is...from my point of view and I think a good many others....
Someone can sit at a table behind me in a restaurant and mainline heroin and I I won't know... and I won't care.. it's their choice and their problem... nothing to do with me .. unless of course the **** sticks his needle into MY arm.

If on the other hand some dirty smelling arsehole 8 tables away lights up ... within 20 seconds I'm having to breath in the evil smelling sh*t....and THAT is why I get angry.

[Tralfamadore]

yachtpilot - I know where you are coming from :D

I just think the arguments get devaued by inappropriate analogies.

[Taking Over, Nigel]

411A

You just proved my point.
Thank you!- no a thousand thank-you's. :ok:

You are rude and arrogant, and a whole lot more.
I won't say what I'm thinking because it would be totally wasted on the likes of you.
Plus it may offend others, couldn't give a rat's **** about offending you. :8

[Heliport]

And your posts demonstrated that rudeness, arrogance and an inability to argue a point without being offensive isn't confined to people who smoke. :rolleyes:

[yachtpilot]

TRALF...
I don't consider the analogy inappropriate...I'm merely stating that I have no wish to dictate to others what they should or should not indulge in for pleasure...
I don't disguise my antipathy to smoking behind false concerns for their health.... what they do to themselves is their business ... what they do to my health and comfort is mine...

[brownstar]

DSR10

you are completely wrong in your claims. Smoking in any form on an aircraft is a hazzard. I hope that you are not serious about your claims and are just out to wind people up , if this is the case then you have achieved your goal.
For those that think passive smoking is not dangerous - remember Roy Castle. For those of you who don't know him he was a famous Television personality whom, despite having never smoked in his life, developed lung cancer as a result of playing as a musician in 'smokey' night clubs. He went on to develop lung cancer from which he died.

sorry it would appear that DSR10's post was removed ,which was just as wel as he was a bit of a *?@)er.

[Farty Flaps]

I cant help wondering if this thread would still be running if it wasnt ryanair.

Shades of resentment again. Just get used to it. The irish are colonising the south of england, and this time they are not here to build the motorways and townhalls. cheers europe.

Who knows we may get the formation of the sra (not the sudanese one) stansted republican army, a bunch of dissaffected southerners trying to liberate essex from the economic domination of the irish invader.

dont ya luv it

more power to ryr. ciggies an all.

:} :} :}

before anyone in the right seat has a pop as they usually do on this forum
i'm a captain that doesnt smoke , i have right wing views and therefore must have no command/people skills.
some of todays f/os remind me of aid workers. full of principle and revulsion for the western policy, until the un offers them a job. get a life boys and deal with it.

[Wing Commander Fowler]

before anyone in the right seat has a pop as they usually do on this forum ........ Farty THAT'S why you have no command/people skills!! Hehe.....



i'm a captain that doesnt smoke , i have right wing views

You're obviously sitting on the F/O's lap then...... most captains look out over the left wing......

Hehe.... gimme a break!

[johnpilot]

Since FMC apprentice has gone quite, I would like to inform him, that not long ago (a month or so) three Captains were let go beacuse they were smoking. All three times they were reported through the anonymous safety report system, and guess what, they were not from the middle east, or from the eastern countries. They were Western Europeans, and the company took the hard stance and they are not with us any longer. Smoking on board is not a common practice, and I would say that it is less than 10 guys out of 800 pilots who smoke. Even these guys are not smoking anymore as they are proffesionals and they obey the FCIs.
JP:O
FMC apprentice I think now that we have informed pprune about Ryanair's Stance on this matter, and since you can confirm it internaly, next time you have an issue you will consider going the proper way and using the correct chanels. This of course requires that you are a man with, honour, character and dignity.

[Wizofoz]

johnpilot,

The treatment of F/O Duggan, when SHE used the "Right Channels", of course being a shining example of how FR treats it's crews?

[Rananim]

We've got some real ninnies in this profession you know.Didnt used to be like that and its a damn shame.Seems like the whole world is being taken over by these obsessive control-freaks who get upset by a puff of smoke.All people have all kinds of annoying traits and foibles.I hate sitting next to some left-wing bleeding heart who goes on about how wrong the war against Saddam or the Taliban is.The drivel they mouth off is more polluting than a few puffs of smoke,I can tell you.Or some politically-correct guy who's been flying all of 1 year who thinks CRM means we're all equal and that its just as much his aircraft as it is mine.


Now,I'll agree that smoking in a confined space like a flight-deck is probably not on.Its been banned stateside for some time.But being a pedantic miserable excuse for a human being who object to people smoking in a bar is DEFINITELY NOT ON.

[johnpilot]

WizofOZ,
F/O Duggan, certainly had more than just the correct channels to use as an option as she is the ex-chief pilot's daughter. She however chose not to use either the proper channels or direct channels, but instead made a mess of the whole thing. She was not correct in the way she dealt with the issue. I am not questioning her reasoning, nor her decision to stand up. If she felt harassed, then great she should have gone the right way about it, and in her case especialy she would have had more options available. The fact that she is no longer with us, is because of the way she went about it and the fact that she left the company no options. It is an unfortunate matter, and I am not about to spill out all the details on pprune as this thread is about smoking on flight deck and the company's stance on smoking and not anything else.
JP:O

[PAXboy]

Firstly - I am pax and a non-smoker.

I have ignored this thread, as I presumed that it was about the problem of someone having an occasional smoke on the flight deck. Today, a friend who is giving up smoking after 30 years needed some help on the phone, due to the severe difficulties of giving up this drug. I noticed the thread was now very long and decided to read it. The lot.

To say that I was astounded that FR pilots were smoking on the flight deck is an understatement. I was astounded and considered it another reason not to travel with FR.

Plastic BugIf two people in an enclosed enviroment can't get along and work out who smokes and who doesn't, that's too bad. We do not need a law to mandate behaviour. Yes we do. If given free rein, humans do not always do the decent thing and cigarettes contain many drugs and the medics admit that they do not know all the affects that they have on the brain and body.

rananimWe've got some real ninnies in this profession you know. Didnt used to be like that and its a damn shame. As some will have heard me comment before - it's the same in any profession/business these days. I have been in telecommunications for 25 years and cannot believe some of the silly little boys that we have running around with the word 'manager' on their chest. But that is the way of the world ... paying less money and watching the monkeys.

I am delighted to hear that FR are responding and their replies to FB were encouraging. The further news that pilots breaking the regulations about smoking have been dismissed, is the first postive thing I have heard about FR all year. Welcome news and congratulations to the company

[feet dry]

I say this from the point of view of a smoker, but one who chooses to smoke away from others because I know how unpleasant it can be.

I cannot believe the level of vitriol and plain rudeness from some of the contributors to this thread. It is always the way.....people make comments anonymously that they would not consider making when face to face; which generally means the debate descends into a thoroughly unpleasant spectacle fuelled by the anonymity allowed via the internet.

Now that I have said that I will make my point regarding this thread....

FMC_Apprentice may have been right to elicit the views of his/her professional peers via this website because, as Danny's welcome intro states, professional pilots (or indeed any professionals whose job entails a great deal of travel) do not have the outlet that a typical office bound worker may have i.e. discussion with colleagues sat at the next desk. I do not believe, however, that he/she had the right to bring to the discussion the name of his/her company. This action inevitably leads to a poor impression of the company and, by association, his/her colleagues. (I do not work for the company in question incidentally).

In another scenario, similar evidence of lack of judgment could actually be more damaging for an individual's career than any perceived threat by directly confronting the individuals concerned or by whistle blowing through the appropriate channels. If a individual feels they are unable to address their legitimate health concerns directly then perhaps they should reconsider their chosen career path; similarly if the same individual is also unable to use an established anonymous reporting scheme, then again they should perhaps reconsider their options.

Now to the specific subject of smoking which seems to have caused the most ire.....

As I said at the beginning, I smoke though I chose to smoke away from others if they find it unpleasant. If I ask someone if they mind if I smoke and they say "Yes" then I do not; if they say "No" then I do, simple as that. If someone does not have the gumption to answer a straightforward question truthfully then I will not concern myself to check back regularly every few minutes to ensure their continued abeyance.

Smoking in public places is an entirely different matter....did you notice the word PUBLIC. To the best of my knowledge I still possess some free will in the determination of my particular path through life. Therefore I chose to smoke, which is my right. If you are in a public place (bar, restaurant etc) which allows smoking, you cannot in all sincerity expect all around to accommodate your view on this subject and demand a totally smoke free environment. It is your right to either stay put/move away/leave the establishment entirely; nobody is forcing you to eat in a particular restaurant or drink in a certain bar.

Smoking (as yet) is not against the law and therefore the analogy with the Class A drug is pretty specious; the societal problems which are caused by such substances do in no way shape or form compare to the legal use of tobacco products in this country.

[Wizofoz]

Feet Dry,

Do you ask "Mind if I smoke" of people who are your direct subordinates, who rely on you to set the tone and enjoyment level of their working day, for whom you direct what their tasks will be (enjoyable or otherwise), and whom you potentialy have the power to advance or retard proffestionaly?

If so do you not agree it is grossly unfair to put a subordinate in this position, particularly when you are asking him if he will aquiese to you breaking a regulation? This is the position an FO is put if a captain asks such a question. After all, "Mind if I smoke?" is clearly a statement that "I want to smoke, are you going to object?". A lousy position to put a subordinate in.

Even asking is tantamount to harrassement.

As for your statements regarding public places, does your view extend to other anti-social activities? Swearing, talking loudly, having a strong body odour... My right as an individual to do as I please and if you don't like it, push off?

[feet dry]

OK, to clarify some points....

If I ask an individual if they mind if I smoke, then that is exactly what that is...a question seeking either a positive or a negative response. I cannot evidently say the same for others who smoke. Now, I fully take your point that there are some who, for whatever reason, do not act responsibly in dealings with colleagues. To me this is a failure of company procedure in that the individual was allowed to ever occupy a position in which they find themselves able to treat subordinates in such ways. If a company has a standing order prohibiting a practice such as smoking, then that SO should be enforced.

I happen to pride myself in my ability to gauge a particular situation, and to deport myself accordingly. Therefore I would not put any subordinate (or other) in the position of feeling they should be complicit in any contravention of any regulation as you seem to imply. "Mind if I smoke?" is not a statement as far as I am concerned, it is a question; if you mind then say so.

Regarding other "anti-social" activities, according to Cancer Research UK the current level of those who smoke in the UK is one out of four people - 15million people who are all, therefore, anti-social. Swearing in public is already covered by various instruments (not least of which as a public order offence). Talking too loudly, well I might find it offensive but the person might be deaf; who am I to judge. Body-odour offensive? In the case of poor personal hygiene the person should be told; if it is due to a medical condition, I am certain any sufferer enjoys and relishes the prospect of causing offence every time they step out of the house. You may think I am being flippant, but I reiterate my previous point which was - smoking is not (yet) illegal in the good old United Kingdom. I am fully aware of my rights as a subject of this country, I also happen to be aware of my responsibilities to others around me; which is why if I ask someone if they mind if I smoke (which is my choice) they can either say yes or no (which is their choice).

[swish266]

If you are a true professional, you MUST be able to refrain from smoking onboard. As professionals we must put up with much worse restrictions than not smoking!
I smoke cigars since 7 years, before I used to do a pack and some a day. I stopped smoking on the deck since more than 5 years. I do on the average 10+ hours sectors. I don't even let my wife smoke, when she's along.
My first reason is it is not fair to other smokers on board. Forget rules and regulations. We, on the LHS, are not God to have the privilege of bending rules and embarrassing pax and colleagues.
I pity the guys that do it!