TURIN

Your source is misinformed. As someone directly involved in the process, I can attest to that.

I hope it works out for them but I reckon booking are very low so far. MCO might be doing better because of more last minute bookings which are undercutting VS who would have solid loads already.

US sales needed so hopefully they are cleared soon.

I would imagine that most of Virgins solid loads are deferred flights from last year and that money has already been spent.
i wish them both well as people certainly deserve a holiday.

5strypes

My source is Aer Lingus. 😁

So first you claim you have a 'sinking feeling' about it, then that you can't reveal your sources to actually claiming your source is Aer Lingus?

With the current lack of clarity surrounding travel in the near future it's obviously far easier to cast doubt on this venture and a push back wouldn't be a massive surprise but I'm not sure you're the one with the inside track you claim.

Advertised ground ops manger and duty airport manager this morning.

Shamrock350

Woah there, easy tiger.
If this venture fails it directly affects my future employment. I don't want it to fail any more than you do. I'm merely sceptical after being let down by so many 'new routes/airlines at MAN' over the years.
I don't want to get into a :mad: contest over who's got the juice, I'm really not interested.

​​​​​

While genuinely wishing the best to those who’ll be employed, how would this be regarded if the boot was on the other foot? Would any foreign airline be welcome to set up a subsidiary in Dublin without employing local pilots and managed and controlled from abroad?

What, like Hibernian, Norwegian or SAS Ireland, you mean?

SAS Ireland aircraft all operate from London Heathrow so, no, I don’t mean like that (yes I appreciate their admin office is in DUB)

ShotOne

allowed yes, welcome that depends on individual views.

You could view it another way. If MAN works out and they commit to long term operation positions for local pilots will come up. If they had to employ pilots from day one MAN wouldn’t happen.

ShotOne

I don't get your point. Is it not the same as what presently occurs in Dublin where Lufthansa, KLM and BA (albeit IAG) nightstop and grab Irish originating pax then fly them to a hub and onwards? None of the aforementioned airlines have bases setup in Ireland nor employ local crews. The most they would have is perhaps a country/regional manager and use third party service providers for ground services. This is all enshrined in the various "freedoms" of aviation.

EI are employing local ground and CCMs in MAN and there is provision that if the base is under subscribed for flight deck then EI UK can go into the market and hire directly.

If you want to get a flight deck position in Aer Lingus UK then I am afraid there is no way to skip the queue as there is a seniority list.

ShotOne

As mentioned prior, this is common place. TUI, a UK airline, operate ex DUB to both Canaries and Carribbean, with no Irish crew or setup. Virgin, operate to the US via Dublin, albeit for cargo. BA Cityflyer operate from Dublin to sun routes in Spain. Norwegian is perhaps the perfect example, an airline setup to avoid labour laws operating throughout Europe. The world is a global place now, and it's a cautious line between protecting jobs and xenophobia. Aer Lingus are unionised, with strong working conditions and a seniority list, the nationality of its workers is entirely besides the point. They will be paying tax in the UK, many will relocate to the UK and not that it's worth anything, but many pilots and crew within EI are in fact British.

I suppose the difference is that Aer Lingus UK is a new subsidiary opened and based in a different country flying non Irish aircraft on a new AOC but still wholly crewed by Aer Lingus. But we live in strange times.

5strypes

The key difference is that the examples quoted were when we were in the EU and part of the Open Skies agreement.

We aren't now but Aer Lingus UK have satisfied the criteria to obtain a UK AOC and approval from the Americans.

While this is true don't TUI just outsource to Canada for DUB/BFS and a few other airports with Canadian flight deck/aircraft. Identical set up local cabin crew only for EI UK but they happen to have pilots already based in UK.

Just a short term seasonal damp lease, not an airline operating under it's own AOC.

As I have said before, Aer Lingus UK is a UK airline operating on a UK AOC issued by the UK CAA. Staff will be employed in the UK and pay UK tax.

Sure, the pilots may transfer from Ireland but given the state of global aviation now, I find it hard to believe anyone is upset at an airline trying to save pilot jobs rather than add to the already heartbreaking list of out of work pilots.

And let's not get too bogged down by the ownership of this UK company, after all the flag carrier is ultimately owned by the same people as Aer Lingus UK, and Ryanair, lets face it, are not a UK company but probably employing the most pilots in the UK (or at least in the top 2-3 airlines employing pilots in the UK) and a lot them are not on the UK AOC ...

I find the negativity and need to diminish things on pprune these days particularly sad, at a time when we should all be coming together to support the resurrection of aviation after what has been a real :mad: year ...

I agree the main issue isn’t ownership but please excuse what you term “negativity”. Not a single U.K. pilot job is being “saved”: these jobs are simply being exported. I acknowledge some Brits are presently employed by AL just as there are many Irish pilots flying for U.K. airlines. But even in the event of future recruitment there’s no guarantee British pilots would be eligible.

EI-EIDW

I don't believe so, their 787s are definitely UK pilots, though you may be correct on the 737 stuff.

Regarding 'outsourcing' jobs, these jobs would not have existed if EI didn't bring them. If you believe otherwise, you're naïve. I have not complained at the 'outsourcing' of jobs from Dublin to UK pilots.

As said before, there is a negativity and willingness to bash, when we should be grateful there's even a glimmer of a restart in our industry.

ShotOne

When there is future recruitment directly into Aer Lingus UK then absolutely British pilots would be ellgible. Of course they will not recruit new pilots in order to make existing ones redundant - in what world would that make sense or even be moral? It is a requirement that any pilot working in the UK is eligible to work in the UK as that is where they will be based. There will not be dublin pilots popping over to manchester for a couple of days to cover, these are jobs based solely in the UK. Again, I really don't get why this can be seen as anything other than good news?

You say “Absolutely British pilots would be eligible...” I’d certainly hope so but they’re not currently: Aer Lingus website specifies right to work in EU. In what world does it make sense or is moral for IAG to make hundreds of U.K. pilots redundant only to bring in others from overseas? Even if you disagree, surely you can appreciate the flip side here?

I think we should. Any multinational business that is prepared to invest in MAN at the moment given the year that our travel and aviation industries have been through should be welcomed in my opinion. If they want to employ pilots that they can employ interchangeably elsewhere in the EU that doesn't seem unreasonable to me. It's a business decision for them but if they are pulling passengers through the airport thus creating UK jobs for in cabin crew, catering, security, baggage handling that's fine by me.

Well said cumbrianboy. It's great news and we should be celebrating that a major airline is investing in the UK given the year that the travel and aviation have had. I'm looking forward flying with them.

ShotOne

They have not advertised for any pilots for Aer Lingus UK so I am baffled as to what you are referring to ...

Remember ... what is on the website is for recruitment into Aer Lingus Ireland ... which is a different AOC ...as I have said before

I was responding to your assurance that in the event of recruitment, U.K. pilots would “absolutely” be eligible. That’s clearly open to question.

You really are hung up on this fact. If you want to work in the UK you legally have to have the right to live and work here. Go and have a look at the recent cabin crew adverts that went out - again if you look at the Aer Lingus Ireland website you will see to work as cabin crew in dublin you have to have the right to work in the EU - but if you look at the adverts for Aer Lingus UK Cabin Crew it clearly states you must have the right to live and work in the EU and there is NO requirement for EU rights - only UK rights.

You don't need me to tell you this is the ONLY way it can be otherwise they legally will not get anyone ...

I don't know how else I can tell you this, your point is misguided and not open to interpretation - in fact I believe some of the existing Aer Lingus crew were not eligible to move over due to the EU/UK restrictions ... what else can I say?

The only fact I’m hung up on is that the tantalising notion of this being a future opportunity for U.K. pilots is total fantasy. AL require EU nationality which would exclude most British pilots from applying. There’s no separate ALUK pilot recruitment process now and possibly never will be.

AL require the right to work in the EU if you want to go to Ireland, you are 100% correct. AL will not require this for working in the UK as that will not work for the UK operation. This is already the case for pilots relocating to the UK and has also been shown quite clearly in the adverts of last month for the UK based cabin crew as seen here:

https://www.aviationjobs.me/jobs/fli...aer-lingus-uk/

If this operation is a success then they will expand, and if they expand at some point they will recruit pilots. Is it going to solve the job prospects of unemployed pilots in the short term? of course not. Is it a long term opportunity? absolutely.

What it does do in the short term however is stop even more pilots being made redundant, thereby reducing competition for jobs when they do come back later this tear or next (not withstanding the demagogue tendencies of Matt Hancock)

I don't think I can add anything else to this discussion now as I have been as clear as I can be ...

If it works out as you say, please count me as No1 fan. The reason for my strong scepticism is why would AL hire pilotsjust for U.K.operation. Would be overjoyed to be proved wrong.

Why wouldn't they, lets say 2-3 years pass and EI say yes this is working and they also need pilots back in Ireland. They would hire UK pilots because some pilots for this operation might not want to fly the services but given the sector issues have decided to do it.

If there is 2 aircraft year round at MAN they would have no issues hiring locally and then prehaps have Irish pilots crew for seasonal based units.

I think if MAN works out but became a highly seasonal operation like Shannon then questions about hiring UK pilots verses more Irish might tip the balance towards crewing by Irish based and maximize flexibility.

Just so that we are perfectly clear IF the base cannot be filled by bids from flight deck off the existing global seniority list then EI can crew it by sourcing externally. This has been made clear many times in webinars and is also contained in the new base agreement.

Do Aer Lingus already employ many UK pilots who commute?

I would suspect quite a few, they certainly were recruiting after Monarch folded, and would be an obvious resource for a Uk base.

Irish Citizens are an unusual case in terms of right to live and work in the UK - it is unrestricted and independent of EU freedom of movement. UK citizens also have the right to work, travel and live in RoI, again independent of EU treaties. So EI-UK, or any other employer, is perfectly entitled to recruit Irish citizens to work in the UK.
At the moment EI seems to be redeploying pilots based in DUB/ORK/SNN to work for EI-UK at MAN. It works both ways, I don't think there were any compulsory crew redundancies when the LGW base closed.

ShotOne

Can I ask if you would be content if EI only took the British nationals working for them to crew the MAN base? I don't see the issue, bar pure xenophobia, if an Irish pilot moves to the UK and pays tax in the UK and rents/buys a house in the UK? This isn't a tax dodge or cheap labour gig, this is purely an airline fighting to survive and its many crew from all over the world, looking to continue work.

EI is a unionised airline just the same as BA. Therefore it has a host of long fought agreements. One key agreement covers seniority. It matters not a jot if a pilot on the seniority is British, Irish or any other nationality when filling up the MAN base. There is a bid form and seniority. The most senior person will get the gig. The only caveat is the right to work in the UK that I understand will have precluded some following Brexit.

People that struggle with the concept of seniority should stay away from legacy airlines.

Is the UK cert taking longer than expected?

They have asked the US to allow the BA codeshare and said this about the UK ACO.

https://www.regulations.gov/document...2020-0250-0007

https://www.limerickleader.ie/news/h...port-base.html

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/202...r-lingus-cork/

Looks like the Shannon A321 NEOs won't be going back anytime soon.

Actually thats not confirmed. Rumoured to be crewed by DUB crew and EI CEO said theres no intent to remove these flights. Flights are still on sale from SNN with 2 NEO from September!!