I thought that too about Flying Colours x

I think there’s been some confusion with the Flying Colours situation, which was I believe known as ‘AML’ that operated some longhaul leisure routes ex LGW with the B777 either late 90’s or early 00’s?

our BA flight to Montego Bay in 1999 was definately JMC crew x

The most people I ever flew was an AML config 772 from Gatwick - including crew and pax/ babies it totalled 412 :eek:

I can imagine! 3-4-3 in M and no W cabin if I remember correctly?

compton3bravo

Bit awkward, have you seen Gatwick recently?! That's exactly the market they should be chasing instead of the previous management's delusion they were 'competing' with Heathrow!

Charley B

To be clear, flight deck was mainline BA, cabin crew was JMC.

thanks,it was cabin crew we chatted to who said they were JMC..they were looking forward to a week in the sun😉

Only some of the cabin crew were Flying Colours and at least three of the flight deck team were also trained from Flying Colours.

The best move IAG could ever do, is buy Wizz, job done at Gatwick! Job though done on the BA staff - take it, or leave it!

If this goes ahead, presumably BA will go back to having two sets of cabin crew doing long haul and short haul flying at LGW, before they were brought together as a single fleet 15 odd years ago.

Could it instead be the case that LGW LH would be crewed by LHR, and LGW SH would be separate?

well there'll be 2 sets of crew but they won't both be called BA

For a Low Cost operation work it has to be a low wage, long hours operation and without any connection to the management & unions at BA

It wouldn't surprise me if it was HQ'd in Madrid or Dublin just for that reason

With Vueling doing the Spanish routes at the moment I wonder if those will come under that umbrella, best hurry up before Wizzair gets fully going

I believe some of you are overthinking this situation. It will be a BA subsidiary probably registered with a name like British Airways Gatwick. Passengers will probably notice very little difference. I can’t see Club going as that is one thing that differentiates it from others at Gatwick. I have been reading several other articles and the general opinion tends to be BA looking for a lower cost base rather than just lower fares.
As for long haul and short haul cabin crew I am not certain. it may well be that long haul cabin crew will be mainline and short haul contracted to the new subsidiary. Not really that difficult to manage. Both long haul and short haul parts at Gatwick can easily share check in area, lounges, maintenance etc… as before.
As said above this will be another company(albeit in name only) within the BA brand. It is this brand that will be recognisable to the 6 million plus passengers who pre-covid use BA at Gatwick.
Of course I could be radically wrong but am fairly confident it will be something similar to what I have said above.
When agreed it will interesting to see the proposed network. The email sent to staff spoke of a domestic and European network of some scale. I suspect aircraft will A319/A320 to allow flexibility for different routes. Maybe some A321s in the summer peak. Remember IAG has been moving towards a common aircraft specification to allow fleet flexibility within the group.
Overall I see this as a positive move. It keeps BA at Gatwick in both long haul and short haul and ensures that they don’t give the market totally to easyJet and others.

How about BA European Operations at Gatwick, that's a catchy title.

BEA & BOAC would be nice!

Unless BA “proper” is prepared to sell check in, ground services, maintenance etc to the new EOG at rates comparable to those offered by third party providers, it won’t work. There’s a lot more to “low cost” than just pilot and cabin crew Ts and Cs.

checkin and ground services are all with GGS now, wholly owned by BA but a handling agent with handling agent salaries and contracts, all done a year ago so that’s already been done. Anyone working above or below wing now is in new pay, contract and Ts and Cs and Last year saw all BA staff who worked on their ticket desk, arrivals baggage desk in the arrivals hall and flight control agents leave the business so huge savings have been made already on the ground.

bear in mind BA LGW short haul was profitable pre covid with the legacy costs of many still in the business at the time, all gone now, and with proposed changes to crew pay and working conditions, I see no reason why this won’t work, as long as they keep the BA branding.

From information I have read from elsewhere one of the changes being negotiated is contract seasonality.
BA short haul at Gatwick is incredibly busy in the Summer season plus Christmas and New Year, less so November and February. Winter Sun and Winter Ski have in the past been useful at filling some of the gaps but not enough. For example Summer 2019 up to 90 daily departures, Winter 2019 45 to to 50 including the long haul. Although there may be scope for more winter destinations if costs allow.
It is similar for EasyJet who have about 30 to 40 seasonal destinations at Gatwick. I think they use those months to do a lot of aircraft maintenance too.

that’s very true and accurate. As you rightly say, Summer peak BA LGW was at up to 90ish departures a day precovid, winter ranged from 35 to 45ish departures a day.

the five months of winter, November through to March. November was always very quiet as was early December. Mid to late December it picked up, BA LGW cleverly added NUE and CGN to target the Christmas markets, also RVN and KTT Lapland charters, it then dropped off again in January and built through February and March with increased ski destinations and March saw med destinations pick up.

canaries also were popular in winter due to their climate.

The winter period in general, and especially the the main lean periods of November and early December and January would need, from BAs point of view, some ability to maybe have periods of unpaid leave, part time working etc to aid cost saving and aid flexibility.

im thinking aloud but possibly some staff being full time for summer and reduced hours over winter or with periods of enforced unpaid leave would all help BA.

Or alternatively annualised hours - some our LA workers are paid the same every month, regardless of how many hours they work. Obviously if they exceed the annual figure, overtime kicks in.

When did above the BA above wing handling go to GGS? I guess it was when they moved back to the North Terminal? When you say the BA staff "left the business", I am hoping you meant TUPED across to GGS?

I wonder if BA Engineering would have to bid to cover maintenance for their own fleet once more?

As for the new name for the LGW based short haul leisure operation, I am surprised that no one has suggested "British Airtours"..... LOL it's not really brand aligned for 2021 alas.

August 2020 above wing went to GGS. No, I meant left the business all together, approx 15% of above wing staff TUPED across.

I'm very surprised the unions are tolerating this to be honest. They've been very protective in the past of a fear Cityflyer pilots may be used on 'mainline' operations to undercut mainline T&Cs.

If this happens and is successful it's only a matter of time, IMO, before they look to do similar at Heathrow short haul before moving onto the long haul stuff.

Standard divide and conquer from IAG.

https://www.headforpoints.com/2021/0...twick-carrier/

interesting read. I agree with you regards it being the thin end of the wedge but at a time like this and with the prospect of increased work and jobs with LGW SH returning, not really something BALPA can be seen to be being against or blocking

Very interesting read, thank you for the link. That article seems quite bewildered as to what the gain is in doing it!?

If the article is correct this isn't really a Low Cost operation - it's just a slightly cheaper version of BA.

They won't be able to compete IMHO

This doesn't make any sense, BA tried to lower the cost base before by franchising the branded product with GB Airways, BMed, Maersk and BRAL, then tried a Low Cost operation with GoFly, and before that, EOG (Dan Air) crews were on different Ts and Cs, which proved difficult to integrate with mainline. BA should stick to what they are good at (while they still remember how to do it) and not try to enter the LCC world where they have absolutely no chance at all of bringing down the unit cost to RYR and WIZZ level.

They put mainline pilots into BRAL on the 146 and denied BRAL crews promotion and the Union stuffed its own members by allowing it, the same will happen again.

As daft ideas go, this is up there with Utopia/World Image.

As for the new name for the LGW based short haul leisure operation, I am surprised that no one has suggested "British Airtours"..... LOL it's not really brand aligned for 2021 alas.

Surely Go is the best name or perhaps in view of the new BA CEO's nationality, Go On

Asturias56

Doesn't it need to be a British company and if so would HQ in Dublin or Madrid be a problem?

I still can't see it's worth the hassle of setting up a separate AOC and all the associated complexity compared to the savings that will be made.

BA CityFlyer is at least a distinct operation from mainline and has a degree of relative autonomy, which this new AOC won't have.

I've said it numerous times, from a business point-of-view, BA long haul needs to be a full-service airline competing globally. Short-haul is just another LoCo. The only thing stopping this is the legacy and unions, but if it doesn't it will die and the Union members will end up in a LoCo anyway, if at all.
Premium short-haul flying will go to the many private charter executive jets, which, with a bit of intelligent systems and marketing, could ensure flights were paid for each way with few dead-legs. The rest of the short-haul flyers will put up with an hour and a half in a narrow seat for £30 each way.

Asturias. I think they will be competitive. Gatwick SH was profitable before Covid. The use of more seasonal contracts will ensure it will remain competitive in the quieter winter months. All ground staff are now part of GCS. (Another wholly owned subsidiary) pilots and cabin will also be on amended contracts. The engineering base will continue as a stand alone unit that will have to continue to compete for work both inside and outside the IAG group. At the moment the unit is kept busy with some line maintenance, looking after parked aircraft and a Vueling maintenance contract.
The situation may not be ideal but in the current climate probably better than no jobs at all. We shall have to see.

vectisman

True of many operations. Financial centres like Frankfurt or Zurich fall right away in August and over Christmas/New Year, but can sell the whole aircraft as Club for a German trade fair in February, which is why having the flexibility to do both gives a significant advantage. Must say that BA Cityflyer at LCY seem to be more past masters at managing this than most others.

If BA short haul is only a loco why in the name of God would anyone flying in Business Class connect over London on BA? No point flying in a long haul flat bed only to be stuck in a middle bolt upright Pinnacle when you're at your most tired. It's not that simple for a network carrier.

But surely that argues for different short haul products at LGW and LHR. Despite BA’s best efforts (remember the “hub without the hubub”?) LGW has never been a hub in the way that LHR is/was.

BALPA members are being balloted on the proposals. Up to 17 short haul aircraft at Gatwick in summer 2022:

https://www.theguardian.com/business...ary-at-gatwick

presumption being with some minor concessional negotiations they’ll accept given the circumstances
How long this venture would last in that format is anyones guess

BA at Gatwick
 

How does 17 short haul aircraft compare to the size of the fleet pre Covid?