PPRuNe Forums - Air France issues MOU for A220, dumps A380 in 2022

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- - Air France issues MOU for A220, dumps A380 in 2022 (https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/624167-air-france-issues-mou-a220-dumps-a380-2022-a.html)

"I think even Emirates were going lukewarm on the A380. That alone should tell you something."

Do you have confirmation of this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orvilles dad (Post 10535965)

"I think even Emirates were going lukewarm on the A380. That alone should tell you something."

Do you have confirmation of this?

How about they have reduced their orders?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy_S (Post 10535916)

I said upsizing rather than upgauging. But yes, that's exactly what I meant.

No, you're not guilty :O

Quote:

Originally Posted by glob99 (Post 10535321)

... but maybe upgauging to A321, and other stretched narrow bodies

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10534266)

Gosh, they kept that quiet ...

hahahahaha

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldLurker (Post 10535804)

There are. But the opponents of the A380 always seem to overlook the existence of slot-constrained airports. Heathrow has already been mentioned: yes, it's just one airport but, despite Brexit, it's still a very important one. If you're a long-haul operator into such an airport, it's surely attractive to bring in 500 pax with one slot rather than 200 or so. And which aircraft would a long-haul pax prefer to be in for six or eight hours: A380 or A321? I know which I'd prefer, given that choice. Given a wider choice for long-haul I like both B777 and B747 (at least in business class) but the sheer carrying capacity of the A380 has to be attractive, and it seems to work for Emirates.

Conceptually, the aircraft seemed to fit the problem identified: slot constrained airports.

The problem that remains for the A380 is the Fuel included CASK.
The seat cost swings widely with changes in fuel price, such that the stage length the aircraft was designed for becomes uneconomic very quickly.
Whether the use of different materials, an as yet created composite, or engine enhancement fixes the cost dis-economy, the accountants will win and the smaller aircraft will become less comfortable. Flown longer distances with more seats.

It is quite likely that those owned A380s are only 35~40% depreciated, possibly less. Given that no other airlines will be lining up to purchase them, there is likely to be quite a hit from their subsequent write-off to AF/KLM financial results.

One wonders where such well-maintained but low-hour beasts may end up. :confused: Reconfigured as freighters, anyone? Or sold on the sly to NATO and mothballed in anticipation of another troop-lift to 'liberate' the next Middle Eastern nation in need of a Coalition of the Willing? :E Answers on a post-card pls...

Ben Smith on the Air France A380 retirement:
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea....a380-problems/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Taco (Post 10538525)

Ben Smith on the Air France A380 retirement:
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea....a380-problems/

If that is remotely accurate, it's pretty damning - especially these two items:

Quote:

2. A380 is Operationally Unreliable

Smith called the A380 “the poorest performer from an operational perspective” blaming many delays and cancellations on the A380 itself.

3. Unplanned Heavy Maintenance Checks

Smith cited “unplanned” heavy maintenance checks on these aircrafts, noting that upcoming engine overhauls will cost €55 million per aircraft.

I've not heard that the A380 itself was operationally troublesome, but if it is that's big - unless you have a spare A380 sitting around a cancellation means you need to come up with two replacement aircraft.
And €55 million to overhaul the engines? €11 million per engine(!) - which isn't much less than the cost of a new engine. Big engine overhauls typically cost a couple million/engine (obviously depending on the scope) - when it approaches the cost of a new engine, they'll usually scrap the engine...

Quote:

Originally Posted by futurama (Post 10535382)

Except oil is cheaper now vs. when the A380 entered service in 2007.

In 2007, Brent crude averaged $72/barrel ($89/barrel inflation adjusted). These days Brent sells for around $66/barrel, and likely trending even lower since futures contracts for next year deliveries are below $60/barrel.

$58 and on the drop today!

Quote:

Unfortunately, the engine manufacturer(s) disagrees.

There you go, fixed that for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tdracer (Post 10538538)

If that is remotely accurate, it's pretty damning - especially these two items:[h4]

I've not heard that the A380 itself was operationally troublesome, but if it is that's big - unless you have a spare A380 sitting around a cancellation means you need to come up with two replacement aircraft.
And €55 million to overhaul the engines? €11 million per engine(!) - which isn't much less than the cost of a new engine. Big engine overhauls typically cost a couple million/engine (obviously depending on the scope) - when it approaches the cost of a new engine, they'll usually scrap the engine...

At JFK we have 5 flights a night to Paris - 4 to CDG and one to ORY. The two daily A380's do have have more mechanical delays that the 772/773/789's that fly the other three routes. Not terribly worse in dispatch, but it's always flight 6/7 and 10/11 that go mechanical/suffer delays at least once a week. I don't track numbers but it's obvious that Ben Smith has someone who does. And with 500+ passengers on the A380 you notice the disruptions to schedule quite a bit more. The A380 is a great plane to fly and it will be sad to see it go - but AF really needs more standardized premium cabins to the US, Mideast, Asia and some African routes. I think the writing has been on the wall for a while. But what will replace them will be interesting to see - probably A350-10.

Massive A220 Order

This "news" is so old it should be in History & Nostalgia.