Fifth freedom in only one direction? how does that work, Skipness?

Shed, is this the same person who slagged us off on another forum by any chance?

Hi FDF,

It certainly is! He has been busy on here again as well. He poses a sarcastic question and includes a stipulation telling me what length my response is allowed to be. No thanks.

On the PIA question, ticket availability is indeed one way. The US requires a stop between Pakistan and the USA westbound to satisfy security requirements. However, eastbound the aircraft is permitted to fly USA-Pakistan non-stop, which I presume it does. Therefore, whilst fifth freedom does apply to the MAN-JFK route, PIA only has seats to sell in one direction.

FDF,

The MAN stopover on the PIA JFK stops is one way only, and I believe this is due to the a/c and it's pax getting security screened in the UK before heading to the US. The return JFK-Pakistan operates nonstop on the 772LR.

The CAA stats for Sep-Dec.2014 and provisional figures for Jan'15 show the following for scheduled flights between ABZ and MAN with percentage change from the same month in the previous year:

Sep. 20,355 / +13%

Oct. 22,171 / +20%

Nov. 19,095 / +11%

Dec. 15,888 / +4%

Jan. 14,596 / -2%

They don't of course show the split between flybe and bmir.

I don't know what seasonal trends you would normally expect nor what cancellations there were this winter or last winter. However, the numbers for a non-London domestic route are quite significant.

Aberdeen
 

................................................Load Factor ....Rotations
Sep. 20,355 / +13%......ave 47 pax....66%....... 140 BMIR-290 BE

Oct. 22,171 / +20%......ave 49 pax....68%........ 144 BMIR-306 BE

Nov. 19,095 / +11%......ave 47 pax....63%........ 129 BMIR-289 BE

Dec. 15,888 / +4%........ave 45 pax....62%........ 102 BMIR-248 BE

CAA Punctuality stats for the rotations and I have just split the difference between the Dash and 175 for flybe seats.

102 movements per month is nothing to be sniffed at let alone 144.

Pete

Hello Shed,

Thought that might be the case. Looks like you've done a good job of flushing them out.

Thanks for the info, Shed and GrahamK, that explains it, wasn't aware of the nonstop return sector. Suppose the 5th freedom is "historical" in the sense that North America-Subcontinent used to be one-stop minimum.

AI also used to do similar, BOM-LHR-JFK, also with 5th freedom rights, but now do JFK nonstop (both directions).

Can't see many one way MAN-JFK tickets being sold, particularly on PK. No disrespect to PK, but there better carriers on that route, and PK is dry.

Oh no the cool kids are ganging up on me.

The reason I have such disdain for the usual suspects ( other than getting this thread locked for being off topic and full of drivel and essays) is the lack of knowledge spouted with such self importance. PK's flights thru MAN are nothing like AI's thru LHR. They have rights (for up to 5 weekly if I remember correctly?) to the US which they've used sparingly to various US cities in the past. Maybe, if the once mooted LAX flights ever materialise they may get used again.

TC,

You are correct in that they have rights for up to 5 x weekly flights. IIRC, they have previously operated ORD via MAN, and I think, although not USA, they may have also operated YYZ via MAN at one point as well?

Re PK, Didn't they fly IAH via MAN for a short period or was it planned and never started?

In those days, I believe their TATL flights stopped at MAN both westbound and eastbound, so with their terminating flights were there not over 50 PK movements a week at MAN at one stage?

PK flew to IAH, ORD, YYZ and JFK one time or another from MAN.

Just as an FYI point, Vueings BCN-MAN and Iberia Express' MAD-MAN flights can now be booked on the BA website (which brings the routes up as the first option), Vueling can be booked on Iberia website.


Should help visibility of the flights and help boost bookings.

Kind of like having a BA LGW route reinstated ! MAN-MAD-LGW all booked under BA codes ;)


cs

The US doesn't trust Pakistan to security clear a jet before allowing it into it's airspace, for some reason the UK does. Hence they troop everyone off at MAN to rescreen to DfT standards which so meet the US minimum and fly on.....

This is of course, inconsistent to say the least. Like "Iraq Airways", who have to stop en route to the UK and be re-screened lest something unfortunate happen on the inbound flight.

Btw if AI do still have fifth freedom route licences on LHR-US, they have not been used in years, the only one who is still doing this is Kuwait Airways.

Only in the sense that AI has abandoned LHR-JFK (for now).

So not that different from AI’s transatlantic before the nonstops started.

Is this an example that the UK should follow?

It makes sense, but too often, there does seem to an aversion to "targeting" as far as safety and security is concerned.

Yes, AFAIK, AI does still has fifth freedom rights between the UK and the USA, but currently unused, and KU is still on the route, 3 days/week.

ANZ do LHR-LAX and vice versa. Only other 5th freedom flights I can think of off the top of my head are SIA FRA-JFK and vice versa with A388, JAI BRU-EWR/JFK/YYZ with A333, ETH DUB-LAX and vice versa with B788, and UAE Milan-JFK with B77W

I'm pretty certain that AI also flew BHX-YYZ daily, but switched to LHR to protect slots.

Sorry guys, I'm lost here...Is this the Manchester thread?
Can we stay on topic i.e. Manchester. Thanks

Yes, let's get back to talking about trains, as usual!

Your wish is my command :E

The new TPE and Northern franchise specifications are now just out in the Invitations to Tender. Those interested can see what this could mean for the Airport by ploughing through them.

And some Liverpool - Manchester Airport trains will be 4 coach electric stock from tomorrow instead of 2 coach diesels, so increasing capacity and quality.

Anyway, further developments at Airport City on the logistic side

Go-ahead given for Airport City warehouse project - Manchester Evening News

PIA
 

One thing I have to admit by PIA is that they prioritise Manchester than anywhere else in Europe as they have a strong link with Manchester which I have read previously from pakistani news articles. :D:D:D

Another thing is that they must have good loads Cargo/passenger pax... As they are still with us and even though they stopped the 747-300 they still kept us prioritised with 777-200/777-300 not like other UK spots where at times they used to put the A310 on service.

Also does anybody know the feed of cargo into the UK with pia? Is it London Heathrow or Birmingham or us? As they do tend to keep specific cargo on certain flights even if the destinations london they will wack it onto a Manchester flight