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Alitalia
Had a look through the threads without finding anything.
What is happening now with regard to the airlines finances as it seems to have gone off the radar ? |
Quiet, isn't it.
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Excerpt from the earlier thread:
Originally Posted by eu01
(Post 5582290)
Just before the miraculous birth of the "new" Alitalia (at the end of 2008):
Alitalia has debts amounting to 2.3 billion euros. The new, smaller Alitalia is still losing almost €1 million a day (net loss of 326 million € as announced in the 2009 12 month result), the break-even target being postponed again. Not my business, perhaps. I just wonder where from all this money required to keep AZ afloat keeps pouring in? Alitalia is once more on the verge of bankruptcy as it loses 630,000 euros ($832,000) a day in addition to the 730 million euro deficit accumulated over four years under private ownership, the Repubblica daily said Friday. |
Is AZ going down the SR and (former) SN route (i.e. re-emerging in a different format after bankruptcy), or down the MA route (dies with no resurrection)?
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Well, it's already taken the first option once ....
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Alitalia Flies on Fumes Into Familiar Financial Turbulence - Businessweek
Italy races to save Alitalia as creditors circle | Reuters Alitalia Capital Needs Explode as Specter of Collapse Looms (1) - Businessweek Anything new this time around ? Money likely to be (once again) found from somewhere and Alitalia carries of flying ? |
Let's live the nationalism! If you did associate this issue with Berlusconi alone, you were wrong. Berlusconi has privatized Alitalia and nationalized its debts (look at the source of money for so called "Bad Company"). Now Berlusconi happens to be stripped of power, but the opera buffa's continuation is still defined as a top priority. The "new" Alitalia had to be different and it's a private enterprise now, but it doesn't matter, the carrier will most probably be injected public money again. New bank loans will be guaranteed, while the Italian government, itself cash-strapped, will do everything to persuade some Italian companies to provide even more funding. Even Ferrovie dello Stato, the state railways, will give Alitalia money to obfuscate any direct help. Most probably the Italian post will be obliged to do the same. Just to save the airline and to keep it Italian. The farce is set to continue.
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I had a very attentive and pleasant Alitalia crew on a flight from Brindisi to Rome a couple of weeks ago. Nicely turned out A320 with leather seats in economy class. Very pleasant experience all round.
Just saying. :) |
Phew - what a relief
450m euros of cash has been found to bail out privately owned Alitalia, including 100m euros from the state owned Italian post office after the head of the post office was invited to meet the prime minister earlier today. But don't worry - the post office is deemed a commercial company and it's not EU state aid at all - no need for Easyjet or Ryanair to query this through the courts. |
The competitor's CEO O'Leary just came to my mind... Right now he might prefer not to comment on these Alitalia issues due to his own PR problems, but I think I know his opinion. This time I would possibly agree.
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If Brussels is all powerful (which if you believe the UK press they most certainly are) you have to ask why they haven't stamped hard on the Italian government's never ending efforts to circumvent the state aid regulations where Alitalia are concerned.
It makes a total mockery of a free and fair market and competition. Alitalia has been a basket case since I was in short trousers, and should have been liquidated decades ago. |
Last time around the Italian Government forced a shot-gun marriage between Alitalia and AirOne which, at that time, was profitable. Hasn't taken long for the old Alitalia contagion to infect the whole orgainism.
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I used to fly a lot on Alitalia, about 30 years ago, between Africa and Europe, within Europe, and to and from South America, because I was friendly with someone in their office and I got free tickets whenever and wherever and as often as I wanted. Admittedly most of the flights were less than half full, but that's hardly an argument to justify giving free tickets.
The standard of service on board varied from abysmal to mediocre, although the food was usually very good. Considering how many beautiful stylish women there are in Italy, it always amazed me how many old dogs they used to find as cabin crew. The planes were often tatty and dirty, and they used the horrible DC10s and DC8-63s (I think) on some routes and a very mixed fleet on short haul. They lost or damaged my luggage more times than I care to remember, and whenever I mentioned that I knew 'so and so' my claim was processed generously and without any discussion. I remember one particularly atrocious and heavy landing at Nairobi where we bounced about 8 times, the overhead bins flew open, people were screaming, and I'm certainly no aviation engineer but I would have thought that some fairly through checks for damage would have been done. We were airborne again within 45 minutes so ......... however that's only speculation on my part but I was not very reassured over their safety. Then there's their main hub airport, Fiumicino .......... what a badly designed dysfunctional badly run dump, in those days even CDG was better, in fact I think Sheremetyevo was better too. If ever an airline deserved to be allowed to fail, it's that one, seems nothing has changed. It was jobs for the boys, old school tie network. |
My team - Joaquín Almunia - European Commission
I sent them an email today to the EU Commission asking why press reports indicated the money from the Italian post office (100% owned by the Italian state) to be used to buy new shares in Alitalia would in principle be approved. To give Brussels credit, I got an answer back within 2 hours, saying that the Italian Govt had not yet notified the EU Commission of the proposed transaction, so for the time being the Commission has to just wait to be told the formal details. The email reply also indicated that once notified, the Commission will then take a look at it. Just for good measure, I also filed a formal complaint to the EU Commission regarding EU state aid and have a record of receipt from the Commission - makes it that little bit harder for Brussels to ignore as they now have to give me a formal response. If you have an opinion as to whether or not this is state aid, I would encourage others to communicate this to Brussels as well - if you have some basic knowledge of air transport economics, the process is fairly simple. It is certainly possible that some deal will be done between politicians at a high level to whitewash the whole thing, but the various people in Brussels did at least respond promptly to my enquiry. |
davidjohnson6
To give Brussels credit, I got an answer back within 2 hours, saying that the Italian Govt had not yet notified the EU Commission of the proposed transaction, so for the time being the Commission has to just wait to be told the formal details. The email reply also indicated that once notified, the Commission will then take a look at it. Just for good measure, I also filed a formal complaint to the EU Commission regarding EU state aid and have a record of receipt from the Commission - makes it that little bit harder for Brussels to ignore as they now have to give me a formal response. If you have an opinion as to whether or not this is state aid, I would encourage others to communicate this to Brussels as well - if you have some basic knowledge of air transport economics, the process is fairly simple. It is certainly possible that some deal will be done between politicians at a high level to whitewash the whole thing, but the various people in Brussels did at least respond promptly to my enquiry. |
Only a matter of time before Italian state runs out of number of companies that it can use to pump money in...........
Given 24 million pax numbers in 2012 that is €20 per passenger this time. Doubt it will be long before they back again. |
David
I admire your conviction but I don't think the EU will do anything, it's happened before... BBC NEWS | Business | EU to probe Alitalia 'state aid' Alitalia must be the worse run business in the world. I mean business in the loosest of terms. |
Originally Posted by eu01
(Post 7591841)
(last year)
So, let's count: some 2,300,000,000 euros forgiven by Berlusconi + 730,000,000 deficit accumulated over recent years adds up to over 3 billions EUR. The debt keeps growing. "Alitalia (Cai) has costed [the taxpayers] already 4 billions in four years. Every day the company burns 1.6 million of euros“ Well then. Now when all that money is gone, how to continue without formally breaking any of the EU competition / state aid rules? An Italian recipe is foolproof and simple: 1. The state airline is on verge of bankruptcy? Pay its debts, privatize. (four years gone, money disappeared) 2. The private "national" airline is on verge of bankruptcy again? Tell some state enterprises to buy it back from its private owners (re-nationalize), guarantee bank loans, burn more money (a few years gone) 3. Still near bankruptcy? Da capo al fine: pay debts, privatize once more. |
Paid to fly with Alitalia once .................cost £500 in total for 2 of us.
They messed up and overbooked return so we got bumped so got €600 in vouchers, business class return to LHR with another airline, use that up for return flights to Rome and then another flight within Europe that they messed up and ended up spending night in hotel at their expense in Milan because connection missed. Reckon they lost £1500 on the booking at least. |
Twiddler - I am sure the Italian Govt will get the money to Alitalia and it will survive another year. The point about making a formal complaint is that the EU Commission has to give me a formal response. It's all about making it that little bit more difficult for this form of corruption to take place and making Govt officials squirm a bit more when justifying it.
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If Brussels is all powerful (which if you believe the UK press they most certainly are) you have to ask why they haven't stamped hard on the Italian government's never ending efforts to circumvent the state aid regulations where Alitalia are concerned. It makes a total mockery of a free and fair market and competition. Think this comment is wrong? then look at the disaster that is the single currency! |
I am sure the Italian Govt will get the money to Alitalia and it will survive another year. As the whole EU and everything connected with it is a farcical web of fraud and deceit, what difference will this make. On perhaps a more serious note ........ supposing every Ppruner who is concerned about this perpetuation of fraud were to do what David Johnson has done and write to the EU, it might be a lot of emails and they might take some notice. |
A bit like selling Royal Mail to pay for the idiotic immigration policy of the previous Government.
The sooner HMS UK sails out of the EU, the better! Leave supporting Europe to our German friends, maybe Lufthansa can buy Alitalia....hahahaha |
How to ruin an airline, Italian style - The Commentator
Full article worth reading, a couple of extracts here : Alitalia has had a fairly inglorious history. Originally it was a Rome airline. Everyone who worked for Alitalia had to live in Rome. So the ground and air crews in Milan or Venice had to be flown up there and put up in hotels while they worked their shifts, then flown back. Never most people’s airline of choice, except for members of the governing class who travelled free, its name was said to be an acronym of Always Late In Takeoff, Always Late In Arrival, and indeed its punctuality record was and is appalling. Often – it seemed often – you would wait in your seat while nothing happened then a beautifully dressed Italian would stroll on board and the plane could leave. He hadn’t worked up a sweat: he knew they’d wait for him. |
The sooner HMS UK sails out of the EU, the better! Quite right Buster! Even better if the UK and the others sail out! Replace the EU structure and bureaucracy with a co-operation council for matters of mutual interest and a free trade zone. |
The sooner HMS UK sails out of the EU, the better! The infamous "island mentality" to the fore, never mind all their fellow countrymen that may have taken the education to learn a foreign language and be making the most of their privilege to live and work in more prosperous jobs and countries of the European Union than those "boring baskets" who decline to leave their island shores except for the occasional holiday and/or booze cruise! And, no, I don't live and work outside of UK in the EU, I did and I made a bucket load of money doing so sufficient enough to get away from the 20% VAT and the 75 y/o pension age of Blighty to develop my own business in the tropical paradise of a Pacific island. Good luck y'all sailing out of the EU :) |
Ah yes, The infamous "island mentality" to the fore, never mind all their fellow countrymen that may have taken the education to learn a foreign language and be making the most of their privilege to live and work in more prosperous jobs and countries of the European Union than those "boring baskets" who decline to leave their island shores except for the occasional holiday and/or booze cruise! If it's not insults, it's fear, such as: if we leave the EU there'll be a loss of 3,000,000 jobs, the country will become a backwater, we'll be like Norway and/or Switzerland (again not meant in a complementary way), we'll be punching below our weight, etc., etc., etc., (yawn). |
Could I gently nudge discussion away from the topic of EU membership in general and back towards Alitalia ?
Air France seems to be letting it be known that it would be happy for it's 25% equity stake in Alitalia to be diluted down to 11% as AF-KL is reluctant to inject more equity into Alitalia for the time being Air France considers Alitalia stake dilution - report | Reuters I received a letter from the EU commission about my complaint that the Italian Govt was providing state aid to Alitalia via the state-owned Italian post office, with the following wording: "... the Commission has decided to open an ex officio preliminary investigation on the matter, registered with number SA.37491" I'm sure that IAG making a fuss will have forced Brussels into doing something instead of probably ignoring me, but it is gratifying to note that the wheels of bureaucracy do grind into motion from time to time. |
DJ
You just a little devil aren't you :cool: |
Alitalia
Arrogantly Lax In Training, And Lackadaisical In Airmanship
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Arrogantly Lax In Training, And Lackadaisical In Airmanship
I would have thought that would apply to a greater degree to Air France. Always Late In Takeoff, And Later In Arriving, might be more appropriate. |
The financing secured now? Great! Next move: let's strike again! The first action, called by Uiltrasporti, Anpac, Avia, Anpav and UGL Transport, will start on October 29 at 10 am, just confirmed. This one will last only four hours, but all of the planned strikes will amount to 48 hours, according to the news.
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AF-KL have just written down the value of their Alitalia shareholding, making it rather less likely that they will put up any cash in the current round of fundraising. If AF-KL pull out, other current shareholders are likely to be rather more nervous. Either AF-KL is playing hardball with the other stakeholders at this stage or somebody will have to pull a rabbit out of a hat quickly. Squeaky bum time.
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Either AF-KL is playing hardball with the other stakeholders at this stage or somebody will have to pull a rabbit out of a hat quickly. Squeaky bum time. |
Needs to be magic rabbit with big wallet. |
"Frying pan" and "Fire" come to mind ...
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Fiercely trying to find one. Next week are supposed (rumoured) to meet with Aeroflot. AF/KLM are already feared as executioner ("carnifice", if properly translated). |
Alitalia is planning the first mass firing since its 2008 privatization to cut costs, but a source said it was unlikely to go far enough to persuade top shareholder Air France-KLM to rescue it in a cash call. |
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