This is the key issue , is the grounding a snap decision as the management claim or has it been planned. Unwind this question with some hard evidence that it was planned and that key stakeholders and shareholders weren't informed and the current management team will lose all credibility and possibly open to some criminal charges.

Or even worse key stakeholders and shareholders did know and used that information to their benefit.

I bet the corporate office is busy covering it's tracks over the weekend if something isn't within the law.

posting from very far away.

Remeber some other strikes in other places, e.g. BA, the govt stepped in and ordered the employees back to work per decree, citing the wider economical and national interest.

My question now: Why hasn't the Aussie govt done the same? Wouldn't they have ordered back unions, in case national interest was at stake? Too cosy with the board and the little man?

I guess there is more meddeling around, at least it stinks right over the oceans.

Despite all the quarrel, the financial market seems to be fundamentally pleased with the current situation. Stock price is going down for more than a year now, but QAN did not have have single vote for "Underperform" or "Sell" within the last three month.

Wondering why? Analysts might suspect a takeover...

Class Y , this is what I suspect also , a lot of speculators, investors and current shareholders who are 'in the know' , this is all about short term monetary gain and this years bonus cheque. They needed to pay the assassin before he pulled the trigger.

Tomorrow is going to be interesting

I have know idea what is going to happen. But something has to be done long term for Qantas. In my whole life the only time I have ever flown Qantas is when its been paid for by the boss. Any other times its been with anybody but.

You know you have to weigh up the emotional feeling as an aussie for Qantas to the practicalities of the hip pocket. Every time I have had to fly and its had to come out of my pocket I have looked at the website and went nope, not even close. You are prepared to take a bit of a hit, but not a lot. I don't know, maybe I just couldn't find the right prices:(.

union demands and FWA
 

Does anyone know the specifics of the union demands? I'd love to hear more info. Think this would make a fascinating movie if all the backroom conversations could be made light. Anyone interested in co-writing:)

The AU government has intervened asking Fair Work Australia (FWA) to halt the strikes & lockout on the grounds of the threat to the Australian economy.

FWA is Australia's workplace relations tribunal. They met late last night and the hearing with QF and the unions continued this afternoon.
For twitter users @leigh_howard is giving excellent real time updates.

Looks like either a suspension of strikes/lockout or all action ceasing permanently with FWA arbitrates and makes the final decision.
Unions wanting 3-4month suspension of industrial action, QF wanting all action terminated including lockout with FWA to arbitrate.

They've just adjourned to reconvene at 2045 AEDT / 1145zulu

Quantas were a highly profitable company but they are now beginning to suffer from increased competition. Companies exist to make profit and they do so in a dynamic environment hence they need to adapt and respond to changes if they are to survive. For example IBM has been reborn brom the brink several times. You probably know it for pc's and laptops but it has exited that market and is now a major business advisory/ consultancy business and produces high end hardware.

The management are right to look for strategies that secure Quantas' future. Employees should be involved constructively but at the end of the day the decision lies with the management that the owners of the company (shareholders) have appointed to act on their behalf.

I understand that employee have to ask for pay rises and better conditions as they won't get them unless they ask for them. However, they need to understand the context of where Quantas is at the moment in terms of profits and future prospects and also in terms of what realistically they can get package wise at other airlines. I get the feeling that on this point the unions have failed to comprehend what management are saying (or that management have not expressed it clearly or strongly enough) hence the lockout is a move to send the message loud and clear.

Unions need to understand that Quantas need to come out of these with a agreement that enables a winning strategy to be implemented otherwise they will succeed in getting jam today only to find themselves feasting on dingo droppings tomorrow.

The anticipated 1000 job losses from the creation of a new airline based in asia seem to represent 3% of the workforce which I am sure can be absorbed by natural turnover and retirements.

Gretchenfrage
 

:confused: When was that?

Further strikes or a company wide strike is not on the agenda and not even a remote possibility. Neither is nationalising Qantas.

FWA is the umpire and their decision should be known later tonight or in the morning.

The only question that appears to remain and will be decided by FWA is whether PIA (protected industrial action) will be suspended (for 90 or 120 days) or terminated. Qantas are seeking PIA is terminated and claim they won't lift the grounding unless PIA is terminated.

Because joyce got his 2.5 million $ payrise approved before he grounded the airline.
Unlike QF employees, I guess his contract has a clause stating, if QF closes, or goes bankrupt, he gets paid miilions regardless.

I suppose some silly airline will employ him when he doesnt have a job.

Maybe to destroy QF was in his mandate.
Corporate greed anyone?

Maybe Joyce can run a power utility next and turn all the power off to a major Australian capital city ...

Hey, what's your beef? I love that ginga!

If FWA rule that AJ had acted in bad faith; then his position would be untenable paving the way for Julia to recommentd to the QF board to dump that little napoleon.

QF
 

I think it is time the Aus airline unions stepped into the real world again.
I was based in Sydney by my UK airline during the last big stike in the 80's. Positioned Syd -Perth on a Dan Air 727 that was operating instead of the striking crews.
We operated Syd- Adl -Perth with same flight crew, something the Aus airline crews would not do, too long a duty they said and insisted on a layover in ADL !!
We all know how that strike ended.

Quote of BBC news: Australian PM can "decree" that QF restarts its operation and staff to go to mediation.

Cessnapete..

What a load of b/s.

Frequently operated Syd-Adl-Per in a 727. Once even operated a DC9 Per-Adl-Mel-Lst-Hba-Lst-Mel !

Hmm, I have been reading the 2010 Qantas Annual Report. Some interesting figures...Qantas + Qantas link Fleet = 191 Aircraft, Jetstar Fleet = 59 Aircraft. Profits Before Tax (PBT) by group in $Million for 2010

Qantas ---------------------------------->67
Jetstar --------------------------------->131
Qantas Frequent Flyer ------------------>328
Qantas Freight -------------------------->42
Jetset Travelworld ----------------------->14
Corporate/Eliminations ------------------->(114)
Underlying EBIT ------------------------->468
Net fi nance costs ---------------------->(91)
Underlying PBT -------------------------->377

So, 191 Qantas aircraft make $67 Million profit, 59 Jetstar aircraft make $131M. Im not taking sides, but if I was a shareholder, its a pretty easy to agree to the argument that the CEO would make for a strike..even if it did interupt my sat arvo footie!

If I was only interested on the return on my investment, for sure I would paint a big orange star on the 191 Qantas fleet and make the $2.2million per aircraft per year than Jetstar makes (an extra $357 million profit anyone?)

Also, how does Qantas Frequent Flyer make $328 M profit?!

Also part 2, net cash on hand was c. $3.7 Billion - or 185 weeks of strike at $20 million a week. Put that way, plenty of cash to keep grounded for a few weeks (ignoring loss of goodwil etc...)

Oh yeah, I agree with a previous poster, I fly them all the time for business, but never when I am flying for leisure and paying myself - my last return SYD-PER on qnatas was over $1000 for economy....! Nice new A330 though...

20/21st century SuperClass
 

Skwak7700 wrote on page 2:
"Best of luck my friends. I salute you for standing up to greed, which knows no political or geographical boundaries.

These short term managers are more than happy charging first world prices but not so hot on paying first world employees. An epidemic which will soon see them hanging upside down in the town squares all around the world.
I wish you the best of luck and stand strong and united against these http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...s/censored.gif."

I would like to mention in passing that I have thought along these lines for quite a few years now. Further, it is refreshing for me to note over the last few years now, particularly post 'Lehman Brothers" collapse, that quite a few people on various platforms around the world feel similarly.
I have said before, during the 18th century in France, it was practically impossible for the greater majority of the French people to "negotiate" an improvement in life/plight with the ruling royalty. The ONLY way to improve their conditions was to literally chop-off their heads! Problem solved thereafter. Period.
The "great" bankers and ludicrously paid "executives" of today will in the exact same way, not negotiate or relinquish economic power, ever! Why should they?
3, 4, 500 years ago and back, we (civilization) used slaves. A person was 'allowed' to remain alive by the 'owner' and fed enough to 'function'. However, the slave was not permitted/allowed to think or function in any way whatsoever other than what the 'owner' dictated. (sound familiar?:E)
The frog in cold water being slowly heated does not generally hop out of the pot immediately.
I can very well see the "Captains of industry" being brought to task eventually over their utterly insatiable and voracious pure greed. Greed? What is greed? A synonym for "Loser"? I can just imagine these slave owners thinking.....
How will they be brought to answer? Well, one will eventually have to go hunting them down on their Bizjets/islands/condos/fortifications-in-the-cities/etc.
Will they be able to be targeted? Difficult to say. They own the defence and security and police forces which they fully utilise to protect themselves and their families and friends. But, the forces they use are comprised of "slaves".........
Certainly, like in all history from ancient times forward, the biggest adversary to contend with in attacking these oligoths will be the "traitor". Always present, on both sides luckily......

308 very good post
For those who do not understand why Jetstar is making more money than Qantas and those who are thinking that the management is doing well to screw the workers GO BACK to read post #98

Bruce,

i can make accounts sing any tune i want them to. it's unbelievably easy.

only take the consolidated accounts and group profit without copious amounts of salt. the individual results mmmmmmmmmm

and how much did QF domestic make? not listed.

there you go.


what the QF board has done is trash the brand. brands are built on trust. abandoning clients with no warning (often O/S and into bad situations (Bangkok) ) does more damage than the unions could ever hope to do.

I run my own business. you do not cut off you nose to spite your face, no matter what the circumstance, esp in a service based industry such as this.
the guy from Rio on the board may have been able to do this in mining, but this is a much different industry, with much more damage done to the brand.

ozzybruce:

Suggest you read post # 98 of this thread. It may help to explain some of those "numbers".

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4...ml#post6778379

Unions.There is no better friend than a fair and just one and no worse enemy than a greedy and dishonorable one.

love him or loath him, he's played a blinder, just over 24h and it's effectively over...

What the fallout of all this will be is yet to be clear, but the unions have shot themselves in the foot without doubt.

Try not to make the same mistake the "dispute pilots" made!

The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.

No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.

Now in 21 days things may be different, time will tell.

Some of you anti unionists need to wake up. Instead of thinking in the singular, i.e. only Qantas, you may do well to start thinking gobally.

Do you really support the global commercial drive to the lowest common denominator or are you a bunch of big mouths because the dumbing down hasn't hit you yet?

Qantas and BA same mentality.......who would have thought the pommes and the roos would agree on anything......my opinion.....and only an opinion.....which I believe we all have a right to, is times are tough, and us...(as pilots) not exempt. I think its about time the last of the dinasours in the left seat realize that its not the honeypot career it used to be and knucked down and did some work........

Back in the air
 

At two o'clock this morning, after a decision by Fair Work Australia, all employees are to go back to work, lockout is over.

Qantas Grounding | Flights to Resume | Fair Work Australia

Bizjet Inmate
 

If your name is an indication maybe you have little experience of airline flying, unions, and union/management relationships. In the recent BA dispute a small group of employees went on strike, and if the postings on pprune are to be believed were prepared to bankrupt the airline, The majority of BA employees disagreed and did the jobs of the strikers. Same mentality?? I think not.

Senior Captains in the left hand seat not doing any work?? Most of these guys graduated through short haul multi sector days. Crew complements in large commercial airlines have been reduced over many years in line with automation etc.

As you say nobody is exempt and in my experience pilots have made a huge contribution to airline efficiency over the years. Whether management has been as efficient is another argument.

Because we use a seniority system most airline pilots are very keen to work for a profitable, sucessfull and well run airline and are willing to contribute to its sucess. In fact, in my experience, they achieve the max hours allowed in a year.

The situation is very simple. Currently no winners. Some here seem to forget that the unions did not ground the fleet, Joyce did. He has been told by the government to shut up and get them back in the air again.

No decisions on any industrial claim by the unions. Therefore that can only be a massive defeat for Joyce.

massively disagree.

way I see it, he either put up with months of random strike action causing massive un-certainty, and thus death by slow torture, or force the issue, which he has, now they HVAE to go back to work, no more strikes, job done.

21 days to sort out a settlement, or have one imposed, no way is this anything but total defeat for the unions position.

Yes, not ideal from Qantas's POV, but given the choice, the better option, and it worked in 24h, job done.

(I should say at this point I am no fan of Joyce)

forcing the issue isn't a victory because we don't know the outcome yet. Some of the wording of the fair work report is clearly not supportive of Joyce's behaviour.

We will need to wait 21 days or possibly 42 to determine the eventual winner.

I'm confused (no surprise).

So they go back to work, still grumbling and the Guv claims leadership and vistory for the travelling public and tourism.

But how will we know that it is over and done with:confused:

How will vistory be measured?

If AJ gets sacked and the unons don't get their demands met will that be victory for both sides and the Tsunani warning will be relaxed?

I need to understand the rules of the game

ROI...
 

The underlying complaint is that the ROI is poor. Quite.

QFA has about 19.9B in non current assets, and against that, the 500m is somewhat poor as a ROI. however, there is only 5.981B in equity.


If you get $5 return for an investment of $200, it is sad, however if the $5 return comes from $60 of yours, and your talking the banks to loan you $140, and you are servicing the loans, and still making $5, then that is a fair return. Particularly when the rest of the world is in exceptional circumstances and generally making losses doing the same old thing. Is it sustainable, depends if the banks still want to fund leasing of operating leases.

then of course, if in your accounting you have also taken a book charge for 1.2B for depreciation (longhaul.... remember everything else os leased), which means that the actual return is somewhat better... ie for the example, you are getting $17 back for $60 of equity.

even better, charge the costs of the competing sibling companies to the parent, and then bitch about the egregious situation, citing the relative "performance" of the family members. Even better, neglect to mention that your grand design has been trialled, and part of the management went to jail as a consequence, and the project made a massive lost against equity introduced, and the controlling interest has been passed on by your "partner" to your competition.

QF, with enemies in the management, you are in need of spring cleaning or a career change.

Rollingthunder:

Guess you've never heard of Carl Icahn.

Joyce has performed BRILLIANTLY in this move. At first it seemed like a huge, high stakes gamble but he has come out of it utterly gutting the Unions of any power. An absolute win for Joyce and a complete loss for the Unions. A strike is your only real power and recourse as a union and now that right has been taken away by the FAIR labor board. It remains to be seen the unions reactions but clearly they have been the big losers here. This will go down in the history books as a Home Run for Joyce.

I don't think that is correct.

The Qantas matter will play out in the coming months but it is highly unlikely there will be any winners, not the Qantas Board, not the shareholders, not Qantas apssengers and certainly not Qantas staff. The only winner at this stage appears to be Virgin.

I seriously doubt Joyce and the Qantas Board has any friends on either side of Parliament after the stunt they pulled at 5.00 pm on Saturday. Joyce highlighted a fatal weakness in the Government's cherished industrial relations legislation.

The game is only at half time, at best........

Might be useful for some like wyoming to actually read the decision before spouting uneducated nonsense.

A few quotes:

Not quite the Joyce home run. I suspect there will be change at the top shortly after this is finally sorted.

Smells like a prepackaged deal to me. Joyce got his termination decision instantly and the binding arbitration has probably been decided already too. Check-mate! Another sad day for the folks in the trenches. I certainly wish you all the best.

I think QANTAS should take the chance to look long and hard at why people are voting with their feet and they are not getting the customers that perhaps are theirs.

In 50 years of travel I have noted the scene change greatly, some of it driven by penny pinching and some of it coming from the bean counters and perhaps some of the staff taking advantage of the change in things.

The bean counters are running this airline and like it or not, they are not the be all of marketing, an certainly understand little about using aircraft in an proper manner. 20 years ago a new aircraft brought into the fleet was sold long before it came into the market, so high was the standard of our aircraft. As such the airline had a good idea what each aircraft was going to bring upon disposal.

I have observed a lowering in cabin staff standards, not all staff I hasten to add, but there is now a a rude element and the cabin service I think should be looked at. Qantas used to be famous for its meals and soon I can Mcdonald type meals being served.

All the 100 and 1 cost saving factors impact on the pride that people used to observe by Qantas staff. I suspect that we are seeing a lowering of staff feelings under the new style management.

If I was in charge I would start and implement a review of all factors that impact on the business, sometimes a change may not be a good thing.

AJ and some of those who went before him lack the people skills to deal with
all people and that includes staff and public.

There is a chance for Qantas to wipe their slate clean, get rid of all the fancy accounting moves which fail to show the real picture and focus upon running a proper business.

What was that rolling noise, just Sir Hudson rolling over in disgust.

My 2 cents...Alan Joyce has succeeded in undermining the Qantas brand, a deliberate move so that JetStar can now emerge singularly to challenge VA. Qantas will eventually fade away and the unions can cry for all they want.

It's not Alan Joyce's battle to lose; its's the QF board's war to win. Alan had secured a handsome pay rise and should he come off badly in this battle, he will go away with a wonderful severance package based on the new pay. He can go away with all the curses and brickbats; but he has won the war for the QF board.

Alan Joyce will be nicely rewarded elsewhere; he has gathered ordnance for Tony Abbot to bomb away at Julia Gillard's government. Soon we will have many hug a ginga days!

This is not "airline management", there is no love for the industry here by Quantass. It is cold modern corperate culture. Shut down your legacy airline with well trained well paid professionals ASAP, upper MGT gets paid well, the banks get paid, the workforce gets what remains (killing many pensions/other bennies)

They sell all assets and start up paying slave labour wages with a clean slate.

The workforce folding to this lunacy would only delay what MGT wants.

bakutteh, what an astute observation! You must be consulting the mumbo jumbo mediums in your backyard to come up with this drivel.:rolleyes: