The fat lady has sung: American Airlines buys Airbus and Boeing
 

AMR Corporation Announces Largest Aircraft Order in History With Boeing and Airbus - Jul 20, 2011

Lots of Airbus to be expected at American Airlines in the coming years ...

SASKATOON9999:
10 years ago AAL was operating some ABs:

DCA02MA001

Further, there are many other U.S. carriers that have operated Airbus birds for quite a long time, none of which were subject to " lots of feet stamping, yelling and calls for government intervention and a judicial review to overturn the decision in favour of Boeing."

We yanks have private enterpise and we have government. Our airlines are private enterprise, at least when it comes to equipment purchases.

Tankers, OTOH, are owned and operated by the government.

Can anyone explain the commercial logic of ordering BOTH the A320neo and 737NG??? The two appear so close that they overlap.

Is it:

To ascertain which performs best, then standardsise on that machine, re-selling the other orders off the production line?

A way of demanding the best unit prices from the competing manufacturers, despite the additional cost of operating two very similar types?

Some form of new financial wizardry that looks very clever today on paper but which result in yet another Ch 11 filing 5 years down the road?

Possibly to speed up the retirement of an ageing fleet of MD-80's?

Also, AA have used Airbus products previously.

Final decision depends on which one fails first;

the Dollar or the Euro.

Oh you cynic TWR ;) But you could be right!

I imagine that neither Boeing nor Airbus could deliver as rapidly as AAL need those new aircraft on the line so I'm thinking along the same line as Mercenary Pilot.

Thats a lot of aeroplanes!
It will be interesting to see how people who screwed Boeing and Airbus when times were tough (ie Ryanair's CEO) will manage to negotiate their 'customary discounts', or be forced to go elsewhere in future - either way it will pose them a headache.

Good news for Boeing,Airbus and AA though....as long as industry growth holds up... :ok:

United, Boeing's first born, has all 320s. Why wouldn't AA order some? It is a superb a/c, ask Sullenberger.

Capitalism=Hedge.

What about "do not put all of your eggs in one basket"? ;)

... I think it was covered with...

An order that big cannot be fulfilled by just one customer. Last time AAL made an order that big, it was mostly Boeing and back in the 90s - they are still receiving planes from that order.

I think this will speed things up for them, which they need if they want to remain relevant among the giants that Delta and United have become since acquiring Northwest and Continental.

The bigger question will be what are the regional airlines in the US gonna do when AAL steals all their pilots? What is gonna happen to American Eagle with such a large order for quasi-regional jets from "Big Brother"?

Other regional airlines have ordered big Embraers and CRJs, but the Neo is nudging right up against RJ territory with operating costs. Boeing's 737 successor is surely to be a new model so as to one-up Airbus' re-engined A320. This will lower the Boeing product's operating costs more - making it even more like a big RJ.

Very interesting news.

I think Sully could have landed a B757 or any other airplane in the Hudson as well as he did the Airbus. Technology and automation had nothing to do with his sucessful ditching, piloting skills did.

I read his book and he never mentioned any advantage he had because of the type of aircraft he was flying. Ditching without stalling is pretty elementary and we all know not do do that.

Sqwk7700

AAL is shopping American Eagle.

bubbers44

Sully would be my choice to land just about anything in the drink. I think he avoided judging the 320 to the public, and Skiles was more important to him than the a/c's marque, imo.

Sources have said today:
Had Airbus been able to deliver the A32X soon enough, the whole order could well have ended up at Airbus. The very important news about the launch of the 737RE (re-engined 737 with CFM Leap-X) almost drowned in hype around the Airbus order, and ended up as only a single paragraph in Boeing press release about the AA order today.
I guess John Leahy have had a good laugh today after his prediction failed. It didn't last "about one year, maybe two", but only five months "until Boeing will simply offer new engines on its 737".
(the two quotes above are taken from Airbus exec.: Boeing will re-engine 737 (Bloomberg) | Boeing and Aerospace News - seattlepi.com

It may also do with dominating deliveries as AA looks FWD while the other two larger airlines are waiting to see what the best option is. AA will save money in the long run by covering the spread and replacing old diesel burners giving them a profit edge for expansion over the next decade.
A sure bet is the price of fuel will only increase.

American Airlines and a split order
 

Lots of large (and not so large) airlines operate similar sized machines from different manufacturers -Air Berlin, SAS, THY, Lufthansa, BA (A320 family plus B737), US Air, Even beofre the amalgamation with NW Delta flew B737-200 and MD80's. Recently Southwest has hinted at a 2 model fleet. American flew A300's and similar sized Beoings for years.

For the size of AA, split fleets at different bases means not a lot of economy of scale is lost.

Awesome news for Airbus and AAL.

Boeing offered the 737RE (Re Engined) as a last resource to get some money from American. They knew from the beginning when the rumors came up a few weeks ago, they had to move fast...The cost for the NEO upgrades on the A32x family rounds $1.5 billion...on the 737NG it's going to be a lot more expensive, they have to raise the LG, redesign the wing box, strength the wing box and wings, new pylon. I guess that this would be the last stretch on the fuselage design that has more than 30 years on the market...Boeing should be launching the RE on 2017...pushing the NSA (New Single Aisle) at least 5-8 years.

Let's see how the stakes are on this...if Delta follows the same road as American...the plane market on the US is going to get very interesting. ....

Regards

I was kinda wondering about that with the 737, they really have stretched that design to the limit...and were resisting the redesign of the box, with all the the engineering going into the 87.

The success of the NEO drove them to do this, and the potential to lose a much larger portion of the AAL contract, short squeeze is a good term...

Airbus may have to open that facility in the US after all....

(Boeing knows how to build airplanes, they do not know how to make money building airplanes)

I haven't read other articles on that matter but I guess one of the drivers here Airbus simply cannot deliver that many A320s/320Neos in time. I'm even more surprised they were able to secure 130x pre-Neo 320s... If you are regular size operator and ask Toulouse "can I buy a few more?" you will be allocated a slot for mid/late 2015 delivery, almost the same time when 320neo production starts.

CargoOne...

Airbus, since the KC-45 program has been thinking about opening a manufacturing line in the US. I guess this purchase plus the options that are in the line...(645) may force Airbus to get this plant going to supply American Airlines+ Latin American customers with no hiccups.

The problem is not manufacturing ...Boeing and Airbus can go up to 60 planes a month...the problem is if the suppliers can keep up with the rhythm, that is the culprit for the upcoming programs...

I knew it was somebodys fault other than Boeing and Airbus.

They would happily take the money but they couldn't deliver the airplane because the elves in the North pole and the Black forest couldn't produce it, That's the way of today's global economy some days nobody is going to buy your paper airplane.

FlightOBN

Indeed! The plane has been stretched to maximum with the 737NG...with a few tweaks here and there...the 737RE is like getting the design into Extra Time...but the investment is massive. The answer is so rushed that the Board of directors has not approved the 737RE...they were lucky enough that American Airlines committed to the program to get it going...let's see if they think this sale is enough to approve it...

Seems that Boeing did not put enough attention to CFM with the Leap X and PW GTF to move on...Airbus always suspected that Boeing was not going to do another airplane until the 2020-2022 timeframe... the NEO is the result of that...and caught Boeing pants down....

How is the 786 coming along?

Lomapaseo,

Unfortunately that is the problem for both manufacturers...the challenge now is for the next Single Aisle Airplane...if they want a profitable program, they need at least 60 planes a month 80 to 90 would be excellent. If you read the news...Boeing and Airbus are studying to get the production lines to 40-45 planes a month for next year...NEO is pushing that to 50-55 in the 2015 time frame....this would give the suppliers enough time to adjust their production lines...and cope with the demand...

Given the significant amount of re-engineering on the 737, for a relatively short lifespan, I would suspect the 737RE to be a loss for Boeing.

They had resisted this to-date for a reason....

just as the tanker deal was a last ditch effort to win at all costs, losing already a $billion on the first 4 aircraft...
this RE appears much the same deal.

786??

Boeing 737 Re-engining
 

I don't think your observation regarding the re-engining of the Boeing 737 with the CFM56 LEAP engine is correct.

I know for fact the LEAP engine will be lighter than the CFM56-7 models used on the latest 737's with the composite fan and fan casing. All the changes you noted will not be required except for perhaps the pylon. I will bet the LEAP engine fan diameter will be the same as the current CFM56 engine come 2016.

Bearfoil,

The 787-6...never heard of that?! The 787-3 has been shelved for a few years until Boeing gets all the gremlins eliminated with the 787-8.. then the 787-9 will come up for certification..

The Dreamliner program in fact is the basis for the next single aisle airplane..it would be all composite...passenger/cargo load similar to the 757 and fuselage factor would be pretty similar.. The A321 NEO can do it for a bit less in cargo and passenger..transcon and TATL. The studies right now are checking if it's viable to do a Single Aisle with a 4-3 seating arrangement...meaning a fuselage a few inches wide. or 3-3 arrangement with a fuselage a bit longer..the economics would be superior due to new engine programs from RR, the GTF would be like in revision 2-3 and the CFM well, let's see how they can cope with the core temperature first...I guess that they will use a huge amount of ceramics inside the Leap-X to accomplish what they have promised in the new engine..

Regards

Turbine D,

No, I'm not... if you check the specs of the Leap X and the CFM 56-7..the bypass ratio on the Leap X is going to be higher that the old engine..meaning a higher fan diameter...+ new engine casing and nacelle

If Boeing installs the Leap X as it is right now...it would hit the nacelle on the ground...Airbus on the other hand...the nacelle/engine casing for the Leap X would give a few inches of ground clearance..

FlightOBN,

Indeed, you are right! Airbus made the NEO as a gap closer and the cycle starts again..Boeing is going to do another airplane, then they will improve it while Airbus comes with something new...so on so on

A bunch of Boeing customers are putting pressure to get a new Airplane...Boeing cannot take the risk right now with 2 programs and several delays....and bleeding cash on others...(tanker)

These singles are relying far too much on engine specs...damn near getting into the fighter jet realm ratios.

The wingspan needs to be wider.

mingocr83,

The LEAP engine is a completely new engine starting with the core. If the core is smaller, including intake area and the fan is the same diameter as the present CFM56-7, the by-pass ratio becomes larger, right? Trust me, it will not be dragging on the ground...

TD,

I agree with you...but Boeing has said that if they want the Leap X they may need to raise the landing gear and use a new pylon also change the wingbox and wing...as FlightOBN stated the wing has to be larger...

Believe or not..the Leap engine is going to be a bit heavier than the old CFM...

TD,

Check it out

Final 737 re-engine configuration down to four possible fan sizes

30 years for the fuselage design ? More like 60. Boeing's 737 fuselage is that of the entire 707/727/737/757 range, first launched in the mid-1950s when Pan Am persuaded them to widen the proposed 707 fuselage to allow 6-across seating, and first delivered in 1958.

I wonder if any of the original tooling is still in use.

SouthWest should not screw up the model and stick with B737's unless going SouthWest International - that would be interesting.

So, according to the article in Flight Boeing will achieve the nacelle clearance for the new engines by merely 'jacking up the nosewheel'



Why not just put a little wheel under the tail ....

The fat lady is very loud
 

Looking at the details is interesting...
-Firm order for 130 A320s + 130 A320NEOs.
-Not-quite-firm-yet order for 97 737NGs (100 = 3 previous options already exercised + 97 announced for this order).
-Promise to be the first to look at 100 737NG New Evolution (that's what the press releases call it) whenever there's something to look at.
-100 options for Boeing.
-365 options for Airbus.

That is one loud fat lady.

CargoOne - you are surprised AA could order so many current A320s. Maybe they include ones scheduled originally for the recently cancelled Dubai Capital order?

Meering

I'm not that much into this business so I'm not following it closely, what I said is just what I've been told in TLS a couple of month ago. 320 backlog is aprox 4 years now if you want it straight from manufacturer. Surely some leasing companies are holding slots for speculative deals but then again most of them having no problems to place aircraft with airlines.

If Boeing needed to raise the landing gear height with the NE will they still be able to use a common type rating?

I don't think it will happen, the fuselage is too old and the gains of a new build will allow a leap frog over the neo, in the short term I doubt that Boeing will be too worried such is the world wide demand for narrow body aircraft out to 2020.

The Seattle Times (if you want to believe them) has a good read with background information about how the deal came along:

Business & Technology | Boeing scrambles to avoid losing American Airlines deal to Airbus | Seattle Times Newspaper

Apart from the business side, I wonder how AA will manage their new fleet structure, both with respect to routes and crews. Quite an amount of training, simulator rides and type ratings necessary to make it all work, not to speak about maintenance, spares and cabin crews.