BAA Board; Isn't it about time at least one of them resigned?
 

BAA: The Board

Isn't it about time one of the above should fall on his sword and resign?

They could then get someone in from Zürich, Geneva or Munich to run the airport.

Maybe they could get out to LHR and bring a few shovels with them? Latest reports have 27L being shut until Wednesday at the earliest. It's now nearly two days since the last snow but as I write I can see the first few flakes of the next lot...

Might as well give up now. :mad:

Oh I'm sure that they'll want to refund landing and parking charges to all the airlines. (And maybe give their security staff a humanity and common sense shot too). It really is a freekin' disgrace).

Regards
Dude :O

Wonder why there was a differential effect with T5 being closed earlier and for longer. Could it be that the specification of service level agreed between BAA and BA was inadequate? Why did BA cancel many of their flights on Thursday when there was no weather reason to do so, apart from at Aberdeen? One gets the impression that BA can't be bothered when things get too difficult, and the management have lost control to the extent that the inconvenience of the staff is a higher priority than that of the passengers. There were hardly any BA staff to be seen anywhere on when the chaos started on Thursday, and the low level customer service people who were around were not empowered to do anything. "Landing" or getting people out of the terminal is a shambolic event, which seems more akin to the "kettling" techniques for controlling riots.
They don't need to go to the Geneva etc to find out how to keep an airfield open, Newcastle will do, where several of the BA longhaul fleet are presently residing.

Snow removal UK style.
 

What you can't expect from these people are morals. Anyone who authorises or permits no water to be available airside except if you buy it, no waiting or dropoffs except if you pay for it, security plastic bags for £1 each etc. etc. sits alongside the dog**** I scrape off my shoe on a bad day. I wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Why should a foreign owned company invest millions in snow clearing equipment for a "once in twenty years" event?
This is what happens when a country sells off its strategic assets to private companies that have profit as their number one objective.
Our ATC system is next to be flogged off to the highest bidder!:ugh:

DB6, you're kinda beating round the bush a bit there.. ! :p

What's really yanking 3 meters of barbed wire through my starfish right now is who is going to be picking up the bill on the scheduled flight delays etc. ?

yep you've guessed it.

and the airlines pay how much for landing and handling at LHR ? On top of the pax are paying exactly how much in taxation on their flight tickets ????

what did BAA turn profit wise last year.. 1 billion UK ?

when this industry is on its knees, broken and bloody, we have had several instances this year of major interruptions to operations leaving the carriers to foot the bill for delays the inability to operate their schedules, meanwhile the passengers are punitively taxed for the privilege, airlines are taxed punitively for the privilege and the airlines have no option to take it in the a$$, which then translates down to loss of margins, which translates to lower T&C's to stay profitable.

Caught an interview on radio this AM with a 'spokesperson' for BAA heathrow who cited an 'unprecidented' level of snow.

"unprecedented" :mad: :mad: :mad: that word gets thrown about way too much as an excuse for failure.

though i'm sure "lessons will be learned'!

yep, it's just a shame that the '1 in twenty year event' has happened, what, 6 times in the past 14 months !!

just as well we have the "Met Office weather and climate change forecasts for the UK and worldwide."

Hmm hows that (factored) 0.2 deg rise in temp working for ya ! :yuk:

oh sorry, that's climate, this is weather.. :E

Sorry, i find this picture graphically incorrect:

With two 'snow removal exectives' at work, there should be at least 4 health and safety inspectors to make sure that any broom is the used to correct way round to prevent injury to bystanders and the general public.

Even though they are in hi-vis, there are no hard hats, the area they are working in is not fenced off, no crash barriers erected and no signage to indicate the risk of slipping, and signage to indicate the risk of tripping on the 'risk of slipping' signage. etc etc etc. :E

Plenty of comparisons with Helsinki going around.

One that needs more emphasis is that Helsinki Vantaa is seen as a key strategic part of the national infrastructure, treated by the government and its operator in these terms. In comparison Heathrow was allowed by the Department for Transport to be flogged off to Spanish investors without any consideration for how their extreme economies and squeezes on cost would affect the UK's transport, or the overall economy.

Heathrow has two runways, Helsinki has three, one of recent build. In a country of high environmental awareness there was no pandering to the Greens on building that. When it's snowing when I am there they always manage to keep two operational while ploughing the third, then they switch round.

This morning the current UK Transport Secretary Philip Hammond (MP for Weybridge, prime Hacan territory of course) gave his usual bumbling, um-ah-er, type of TV interview about the new railway from London to Birmingham, stating that there was a need to "anticipate increases in demand, the present railway will soon be full up, and provide for resilience of the future transport network for the sake of the UK economy". And so 120 miles of countryside will be dug up.

This is a curious contrast. Go by train today from Euston to Birmingham and you will see several First Class coaches with about half a dozen passengers in each one, not surprising when the fares for this are higher than BA charged me last time from London to New York (yes, really), meanwhile Heathrow is already beyond capacity on the runways, and has been for years, yet no third runway for them, and it is allowed to be sold to the chancers from Madrid. Why is resilience important at the DfT on one railway route in Britain, but not for the premier airport of the country ?

Separately, who was the BAA buffoon on BBC news this morning who said aircraft de-icer was ineffective below -10 ? Do they think aviation in Helsinki and much of Russia shuts down for three months in the winter ? How do they think the BA A320 which overnights in Helsinki each day ( -21 tonight) manages to get away on time right through the winter ?

Don't want to intrude but being an APP Radar controller thats worked in Canada and now in a warm part of Australia, I read a paper once that a warming pole will interrupt the cold deep water Atlantic conveyor from the arctic that feeds the surface warm Gulf stream that flows from the Caribbean to the West of Ireland.

The Gulf Stream keeps the British Isles at low moist temps.

Should the Gulfstream hiccup or stop, you are at similar latitudes to Canada's cities and Moscow etc. so that may be your weather patterns.

The similar Pacific stream keeps Vancouver mild whilst Edmonton freezes.

I'm undecided if its anthro or not but the climate appears to be changing.

.....and couldn't they find a 'spokesperson' rather better informed than the guy who appears on the news. Apart from the inevitable ''what if'' scenarios he spouts on every occasion he offers nothing of any value at all. As for an apology for their pathetic performance - don't hold your breath!!

Someone mentioned Aberdeen before... Here, we have had regular SNOCLO periods, however, we are usually closed for up to 90 mins. It takes approx 1 hour to clear & de-ice the runway and movements continue, albeit at a slightly slower pace. Our runway is half the length of Heathrow, so I don't understand why nearly 48 hours after their snowfall they only have 1 runway clear? Fair enough they have mile after mile of taxiway and stands, but c'mon??

You folks don't get it. This is just the Spanish taking another shot at the UK carriers because what their ATC does to you is clearly not enough. :{

Seriously though, there does need to be a bit more understanding when it comes to the reaction some people are taking. To set up the kind of winter ops infrastructure that you see in places like Helsinki would be very expensive for what has traditionally been infrequent use.

In Calgary it took about 20mins an hour with huge multion dollar beasts from a sci fi movie.

It now gets done in 10mins.
YouTube - Vammas PSB 5500


The older kit
YouTube - Vammas PSB 4500

Presumably they cant employ say a thousand out of work navies cos they don't have air-side passes, or does that go by the board when it suits them?

The government should have the power to fine the company say 50% of their profit and tell them if it happens again it'll be 100%

Information (or rather, the lack of)
 

I think what peeves most people is the fact that there is little, if any information given to people regarding delays etc. Weather conditions aside, the latest fiasco is just one of many where "authorities" either are incapable or simply will not provide any information to the poor traveller. Communication is a wonderful thing, and goes quite a long way to keeping the travellers onside and not simply feeling completely neglected - just how difficult is it to keep the public at large informed? Obviously, in the case of BAA and some airlines, extremely so! :mad:

Tried going on BA.com? don't bother, about as useful as trying to go the airport.

Extract from the BA home page:

"Please do not go to the airport unless you have a confirmed booking on a flight that is operating.

Due to high call volumes and website visits you may experience delays contacting us or changing your booking."

In fact the website seems to have crashed presumably due to inability to clear precipitation on the inbound broadband.

How are things being handled in other European Airports can anyone say.

Germany for example, has had some pretty significant dumps in recent days, are they displaying the same level of chaos as LGW and LHR.

How or other affected areas coping ?

Interesting to compare the Canadian machine with UK equipment. First thing I noticed was the speed at which it was being driven.

UK equipment of similar size and design comes from Overaasen or Scherling but I've never seen them operating at such speeds. 30 to 40 mph is about as fast as they're driven and watching them on TV at LGW a bit back, slower still.

Could this be one reason for problems getting runways cleared?

As for blowers, ever stood next to a Sickard? Words like skin, rice pudding and pull come to mind!

Sir George Cayley

Stick one of the YYC ones on a C-17 perhaps?

Snow Snow Snow Ho Ho Ho
 

Neither the Major UK airlines or Heathrow or Gatwick will spend the money on the necessary snow and ice removal equipment. Accountants rule.

On the operational side the UK airports waste what few resources they have.

Only the full length and width of runways and the centre line of taxiways need to be cleared.

Aircraft can takeoff and land on icy runways with up to 15mm of slush or 100mm depth of dry snow on them ... A black tarmac is not required.

There are no depth limits for taxiways and aprons.

Yet we see the BAA talk on and on about taxiways and aprons ???

Get the guys some decent boots and put some sand down!!

I have just seen the boss of the BAA on the TV ..I do not see much change , he left me very unimpressed. He seemed to have no operational knowledge. He offered no solutions just telling passengers not to come to the airport.

The fiasco will continue.

In Toronto at the moment and thinking back to a departure from YYZ – Toronto, Pearson Int – about this time last year. We were last of a 23 aircraft, early morning “pod”, driving through the six lane de/anti-icing facility followed by a couple of quick(ish) left turns onto 33R for a takeoff in driving snow. All 23 done and safely airborne in 44 minutes. Impressive performance – you’ve got to hand it to the Cannucks!:D

<<How are things being handled in other European Airports can anyone say.>>

Can tell you Zaventem (BRU) airport according to news sources is about to "close for departures" because they've just about ran out of de-icing fluid. Slightly embarrassing to say the least.

They won't get any in till wednesday morning :suspect:

Done a lot of that have you WhoopWhoopWhoops?

And you have tried taxying on them?

YS

I wonder if the directors will achieve their targets and get a big bonus at the end of the year?

Interesting observation Highcirrus, most of us in Canada love to knock Toronto airport, they are by no means the best run airport in Canada when it comes to snow removal, however watching the total screw up in the UK I can see your point. At our main base of operation its common for the airport manager to be seen out driving a plow when things require extra hands on deck, just cant see this hapening at Heathrow somehow! We live on a farm in Ontario pretty much in one of the snow belts, my wife pointed out that our farm tractor/blower combination is better than most of the equipment we have seen on the tube atempting to keep things going in London. If you are flying back to the UK soon you should stock up on snow shovels, could no doubt sell at a large mark up in the UK!

The Internet is an amazing thing:

Frankfurt Airport | Homepage

"Flight delays and cancellations might occur at Frankfurt Airport due to wintry weather and reduced visibility.

Passengers are kindly requested to contact their airline and to check traffic reports, e.g. on the radio or on teletext."

Plenty of 'cancelled' on the arrivals / departures and not all to the UK.

UK really need to think about what they want from their airports.

At the moment they are operated largely by a foreign company whose interests are in retail and screwing every last penny from the passenger, as in recently introduced drop off and pick up charges.

Government intervention is needed, get rid off the retail and use the space freed up to provide adequate de icing and queue free security.

BAA need a punishment tax imposed for their pathetic performance, which can be spent remodelling airports as places to travel from instead of being shopping malls.

Maybe its already too late, hub travellers will simply avoid Britain.

And why should they?

It is the airlines, predominantly BA,who have taken the very astute decision to keep as many of their aircraft in the one place where they can re commence flying from the most profitable perspective.
i.e. if they keep the short haul aircraft at any of the London airports they'll be in the perfect position to recommence services from the home base as soon as conditions permit.
Aircraft stuck in Dublin, Madrid or Paris, for example, require extra crews to ferry them out of there and possibly extra crews to get them back to normal.

It's very unfortunate for the passengers, and well done to Ryanair for taking the plunge and risking everything by putting every resource into putting on extra flights into Stansted to ensure the backlog is catered for.
But anyone in any other industry would have taken the same punt - lose a wee bit of profit by not operating but make sure all your resources are in one place to ensure that when the weather is better, you are ready to give everyone the best service possible.

The problem is you can't clear a stand of snow and ice when there are aircraft on them. It is apparent when flying to European airports that the moment an aircraft moves off stand when it is snowing the snowploughs come on to clean it. Have an airport that works to maximum capacity with aircraft on every stand and the whole airport comes to a grinding halt when it starts snowing.

I wonder if half the problem is that so many managers who experienced snow and ice in the 80's have retired and left young inexperienced people in their place. We've had too many mild winters in the recent past.

Remember that BAA is the company that lost a billion pound contract at Gatwick because they couldn't hire a few extra security guards.

They're a retail company, not an aviation company. They make money whether or not people are actually flying anywhere.

clunckdriver

No, back on a ULH flight to Asia tomorrow, where they don’t need to know one end of a snow shovel from the other!

It’ll be interesting to compare and contrast YYZ’s performance with that of LHR, given the following TAF:

Seem to remember a very similar few days in LSGG a few years back - turned up for a morning shift just as they closed for snow clearing, only to clear the runway / taxiways and forget about the apron - result - closed for ~48hrs (memory permitting).

Certain scientific circles have been stating for quite some time that this is indeed the case (in particular, with relation to the gulf of mexico oilspill / "cleanup") with north atlantic water temps measured at 10 degrees lower than normal (try googling "Dr. Gianluigi Zangari").

And yet it was all "unforeseeable"! :ugh:

Yep cats_five, the internet IS an amazing thing. Hence the reason why I am using it.

I was looking for a more in-depth, first hand kind thing rather that a corporate spout !

I can see for myself the utter chaos from LHR and LGW on the television and get a much clearer impression of exactly what is going on.

I cannot do the same for other European locations.

I am simply trying to understand if the UK reporting is another bash-britain thing, or if other countries are experiencing the same failures.

Buy some shares in Ferrovial and then go along to the next AGM and make your point felt!

How are other European airports coping?
 

I was watching a fair bit of ARD (German TV) at the weekend, and it's clear that Frankfurt had problems - on Saturday they lost about 30% of their operation, and even today a significant proportion of services were to be cancelled. BUT, and it's a bit BUT, the airport has not been effectively closed for days on end the airport has continued to function to at least some extent. Lufthansa didn't take a BA type decision to cancel all services from FRA either.

When journalists are comparing how the UK (LHR principally) compares with other airports they always go striaght for Canadian and Scandinavian airports, where they always have "real winter". The comparisons need to be made with AMS, CDG and FRA and against them we simply don't measure up.

In my opinion the blame lies at the door of the idiots that privatised BAA, and permitted airport operators, looking for profit, to pair back too far their snow clearing capacity - and heypresto we wind up in the almighty mess which, whatever the politicians and spin doctors from BAA say, is an embarassment for the UK.

BAA has prevented Sky TV at least from reporting inside LHR and LGW today if reports are to be believed !!!

Regarding the atrocious and deteriorating conditions nationwide, at what time do the "government" turn to the military for help ?

Interesting that Hammond acknowledged in the Commoms today that LHR is operating at 98% capacity most of the time, any hicough caused aircraft delays airside and pax queing out the doors landside.

AMS, FRA & CDG all have the luxury of a number of runways - allowing csnow clearing to be done continually without fully closing the whole airport.

If the Govt's Scientific Review suggests that increased frequency of snow is to be expected from now on, then it is very hypocritical of the Govt to also block an new runways in the South East.