yepp,
 

you can increase the pax number every year and in the same time lower the av. fares by 15%, but how long? Until you carry 200 million pax/year completely for free :-)
Total revenue per pax is declining since 2 years: last year by 11%, in 2009 by 6%. That's the only thing counts: revenue/pax.
I know they have terrific success in the past, but in the future they need some fine tuning.

I know everyone on here would love to see Ryanair go bust or whatever else,

... said ballybelly : how stupid !
I, with many others I am sure, hope that Ryanair will go on offering us cheap flights, and for a long time. To ROM, NYO, BGY, MAD, DUB, and return for less than 30 euros, I like it.
Back to the pre-deregulation and pre-LCC days, with tickets costing a small fortune ? No, thank you !
Anyway, Ryanair is far from going bust, thanks heaven.

"They have to allow the likes of WHSmith to charge the punters £££s for the basics once trapped airside to make back the money they lose on Ryanair ops."
Skipness I have to agree with you here. However when I fly from Prestwick I tend to spend more time and money landside mainly because I can buy a decent cup of coffee and something to eat on board at Peckham's deli. Obviously I have to go to WH Smith in the departure lounge to buy something to drink onboard. I have flown back from Charleroi twice in the past year and the catering at the new terminal leaves a lot to be desired and it is very expensive. Even if I'm hungry I don't buy anything. I tend to go through security quite late and have something to eat and drink before. If airports like Prestwick and Charleroi improved their catering and shops and also lowered their prices to a more realistic level then I would spend a lot more.
Some people will criticise me for saying this but I actually prefer using Prestwick mainly because it is smaller and therefore there is a lot less walking than at Glasgow. Yes I know there are several improvements that could be made at Prestwick. I would love to see Ryanair increase their destinations from there and also another airline with a base at Prestwick. Maybe that's just wishful thinking!

Have you not been following FR for the last 10 years?

Their stated aim has been to reduce air fares !!!!!!!!!!!!!
A statement of intent time and again carried out.

At the same time they have cut out millions of pounds of cost by focusing on charging for bags and going to online checkin removing a need for checkin desks.

As for the fine tuning well lets see they have increased passenger numbers and total revenues year by year and pretty much gained the competitive advantage in low cost yet somehow they NEED fine tuning.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

The idiot idea that well you can't rely on past performance is funny as lets face it looking around European aviation industry there is pretty few who you can bet the house on that they will provide growth in the future with ample cash to do so.

It seems that quite a few are sucking on bitter lemons because their desire for FR's demise is not happening anytimesoon.

racedo

I concur with your excellent post.

MM

I've been following the recent topic of this forum for a while and am provoked into replying because it is obvious the participants are divided into the pro and anti - not surprisingly, but some of the antis are using the ryr thing to hark back to an era which is long gone, and, imo, no loss. When flying first started there were seats arranged like railway carriages and curtains in the windows and obsequious service, like the Titanic. Safety had a role on eliminating the seating layout, economics has had a role in eliminating everything else and bringing flying to what it is, a transport service. Ryr provide that, a transport service, you have a choice....

Airports are, in many cases, for reasons that are not clear to me, state run. That means that economics has no place in their thinking. MO'L rants at the DAA, which has been a political football ever since it was created, and the subject of a number of enquiries for suspected fraud and a retirement home for failed pols. I suspect other airports and their authorities are similar, so are state airlines.

A common phrase today, vis a vis the financial mess, is 'we are where we are' personally I like where we are in the air transport business. I wouldn't like to consider MO'L as someone whom I would call a friend, he is far too pushy for my liking, but he runs a tight ship and provides what I want, an efficient and good value transport service.

BTW, I never eat in airports......:O

People are crap with money
 

The Ryanair business model means :

My Cost : I now have to pay to check in luggage when I go on holiday
Family Cost : My family now has to pay to drop me off at the airport as the airport allows Ryanair to fly for free.
Supplier Cost : I now have to pay over the odds silly money in WHSmith as the airport is forced to charge over the odds rent as Ryanair fly for virtually free.
Meal Cost : Extortionate money for food on board.
Human Frailty Cost : Baggage is 1kg overweight, gigantic fine if my
boarding card doesn't scan at security ££ to print out a sheet of A4
Infrastructure Cost : Stansted's Sat 3 would never be built now, the future is queuing in a tin shed.

None of which affects me as I fly alone and with a single rucksack, however that's not most people. I ask again, where the market has seen this in action for a long time, ie in the UK, Ryanair are in retreat. Good riddance to them as well! I agree they've done amazing things to bring down the cost of flying, however they just don't know where to draw the line. Publically challenging a wheelchair service cost is a clue.

There will never be another airport terminal if this model is allowed to grow as the revenue won't be going to the operator. Ryanair forced out all competition at Shannon and now look what happened when the market proved unsustainable. Traffic collapsed and there was no Plan B as no other airline would risk SNN with an FR base. Same with PIK I think.

barrymah

An excellent post - may I say.

Skipness

Just dont fly with them - okay!

MM

Mickeyman I do choose to fly with them and may I remind you that that decision is mine not yours. I am pointing out politely and without too much emotion some serious issues that this business model is having on the industry and our travel patterns. It's not all a sunny upside.

Screaming loudly that the declining market in the UK and Ireland ( the mature markets I am talking about ) is everyone elses fault is interesting to me as it's not very likely.

If they maintain STN-PIK I will fly with them a few times each year, if not then it might be a while before I'm back on board. My concern is the wider impact and the race to the bottom that Ryanair have maintained.

Can you perhaps address some of my questions on why Ryanair is retreating from markets once the free introductory deals expire? Are they perhaps unsustainable without indirect taxpayer subsidy?

"without too much emotion"
Capital letters and exclamation marks would suggest otherwise...;)

EMA
 

EMA has lost BGY and MJV for the winter, to be honest im alittle shocked that these two are being cut out for the winter. Where will them second home owners go now MJV has been dropped for the winter. Also I think milan is better to visit in the winter, the last few times ive flown BGY its been rammed always 180+. Shame both of these routes had high loads, and not always cheap either.

Fr-

The wisest comment I have yet seen on this forum is that it is composed of pro's and anti's and therein is the problem there is no middle ground.

Those who are anti cannot accept anything positive about FR and those who are pro will not accept anything negative. If you post anything that can be construed as even handed you are attacked by both sides.

Therefore there will never be any reasoned debate on this forum.

RYR - Murcia
 

Dublin & London Stansted will operate flight to Murcia all year round and all other flights to the UK are being dropped for the winter.

Skipness

'the race to the bottom that Ryanair have maintained'

What on earth are you on about??

'Ryanair is retreating from markets once the free introductory deals expire'

Seems like common sense to me.

You are too concerned and listening for every mutterance from
MOL - for some reason?? You seem unable to grasp the business
model - you dont have to agree with it but to keep moaning the way
you do is daft.Seems you have the 'British desease' in a big way.

MM

I turn on and notice "Ryanair" and look to see any news regarding aircraft, routes, bases, etc but most of this thread is a boring waste of time from those who are against Ryanair and those who defend the airline. Now lets see what news about Flybe ......................

Mickeyman I have asked a few questions of which you have answered none. I have explained I am happy to fly Ryanair so I am not an anti. I have also explained that I am verry unhappy at the wider impact that the Ryanair business model is having in that airports are introducing a raft of ancillary charges as their business model is forced to adapt to Ryanair's on a "FIFO" basis.

I am quite capable of understanding the business model thank you very much. The main focus of my argument was attempting to engage in a look forward to see what happens when the rest of the Ryanair model reaches "maturity" in the same way that the UK has.

Forgive me if that all went over your head.

The "race to the bottom" is a commonly used industry term explaining the continiuing deterioration in Terms and Conditions of those involved, from Flight Deck, Cabin Crew to the bloodbath that is ground handling in the UK.

I was attempting to quantify that in embracing the Ryanair model so wholeheartedly, as ever we have failed to recognise the price that goes with it. Cheap Fares but outrageous "optional" charges as I wrote above. Hence at the end of the day, I find it cheaper, as I'm London based, to fly BA. This is in itself interesting. Sadly outside of the M25, the rest of the UK does not have that option. I was only aiming to give some food for thought, racedo and mickeyman's religious fervour is increasingly amusing to watch.

Can we not get back to talking about "Airlines, airports & routes" rather than this thread going back to the pros, cons and life story of the Ryanair business model? I always regret posting anything on here as the utter tosh that follows means I end up unsubscribing to the thread again. Now staff T's and C's and the infamous "race to the bottom" have been mentioned on here - there is lots of that discussion on the Terms and Endearment thread.
I'm interested in what Ryanair are doing as regards new routes, bases or changes within existing ones and will be happy to comment from the inside on anything I know. Perhaps we could get back to that? Any more info on Bournemouth? I have some friends in BRS who have been moved to other bases for the winter due to it being "overstaffed for the winter" - I know nothing more than that at present. Again, facts would be really useful as opposed to "This is unsustainable so I think the base will close in a year when they stop getting free charges" etc

Charging for dropping people off at an airport regardless of how long you take is a personal gripe of mine. I'm not sure you can correlate charges like these exclusively to Ryanair's presence at airports though. For example, I don't believe they're in existence at a majority of Ryanair's bases. Actually it seems to be largely a UK phenomenon at the moment. Birmingham would be a good example of a UK airport where the majority of current traffic is non-loco, non-Ryanair (probably not how Ryanair planned for it to be right now!) but still they have introduced a drop off fee.

Your argument of the Ryanair model reaching maturity (rather than the overall market itself) in certain markets would stand up if there was still growth in the overall market but a decline in Ryanair's market share. I'm not sure that this is the case in Ireland or the UK so I'm not seeing the evidence to validate the argument. Please don't confuse this as me suggesting the Ryanair model is infallible.

I don't find BA working out cheaper in some instances either interesting or surprising, nor should anyone else as far as I'm concerned. Ryanair's headline 'cheap' fares are only for passengers who are prepared to fly within Ryanair's terms and conditions (go to the hassle of getting a prepaid Mastercard, taking only hand luggage, etc.). However, if everyone did this, the company would quickly have to change its current business model or face going under quite quickly. Human nature and behaviour is the reason they don't. As long as certain people insist on paying through the nose for excess luggage, getting their boarding cards reprinted, not checking competitors' prices, etc. then there'll be headline cheap fares available to others. A form of cross subsidisation I guess you could say!

Drop Off Charges Etc.
 

The only comment I wish to make about drop off charges from an ex-Pat enjoying living outside of the UK is three words - RIP OFF BRITAIN!
Also regarding Border Controls - the Shengen Agreement is named after a place in Luxembourg where the agreement was signed - but not by the UK. In theory you can drive from the North Cape of Sweden right down to the border of Spain and Gibraltar without ever having to show your passport. No wonder the people living and working on the Continent of Europe get fed up when they come up to the UK Border - we are all supposed to have free movement. Before the Daily Mail and Telegraph brigade start going on about Johnny Foreigner the problem about immigration should have been tackled years ago but it wasn´t and the UK is now paying the price for letting in too many from outside Europe and the Commonwealth.

Charges for drop off / pick up at airports are not wholly due to the LCC phenomenon. Airports (in the UK at least) are being "encouraged" to reduce their environmantal impact, both landside and airside. As a result, they are trying to encourage the use of public transport to and from the airport, rather than large numbers of individual car trips. This applies for both passengers and staff.

I was involved in the work on ground access at East Midlands 3-4 yars ago. Charging for cars has increased, partly due to taxi drivers using the short stay car park for meal breaks, but also due to the reasons stated above. If you look at the increase in public transport provision, both in terms of locations served and the operational times of the services, to the airport over the past 5 years, you can see the quid pro quo. And speaking to former colleagues, use of these services is increasing dramatically.

If you really object to the charge at Birmingham, drop your friends at the railway station and they can get the "Skytrain" free link to the airport - similarly pick up from there coming back.

MD

Skipness

60+ million passengers - Europe-wide

Why do English people not understand
they are a small % of Ryanairs business?
I would expect more complaints from
mainland Europe than I read - if they were
as bad as some people say.
Time will tell with their business model but
its not my remit to worry about that now -
nor yours.There is always a certain amount
of tittle-tattle within a company about how
the grass is greener etc.
You decide who you fly with.

MM

Is Ryanair returning to Manchester and basing aircraft there

I've been following this thread for ages, and I have to say, Mickyman and ASFKAP, just get a room and get it out of your system. You'll feel better after....probably!

I'm sure the rest of us have noticed MM is a big Ryanair supporter, and voices his support accordingly. ASFKAP doesn't like Ryanair, and like a broken record keeps informing us of this point too.

Each to their own I suppose, but any chance of some NEWS regarding Ryanair rather than just debating their merits? We all know what kind of operator they are, and anyone, including myself, who flies with them are well aware of what they're letting themselves in for.

P.s. A final thought for ASFKAP. Lay off the smilies/emoticons will you? They're unnecessary! Cheers.

In the UK every airline has been in retreat but as pretty much history tells us that the Airline industry is cyclical. The difference in FR's case is that it has growth opportunities elsewhere to avail of in the downturn.

The last 2 yrs have seen the private sector get it in incomes and jobs, the next 2 its the public sector but in circa 2 years things will change thats not counting the growth from London 2012.

The days of airports being a shopping centre with a runway attached are hopefully gone because the majority of passengers have always wanted to get from A to B quickly and not spent hours sitting in a shopping centre while the airport thinks up other ways to screw money out of them. The retail specialists have earned millions from BAA in funneling people directly into shops, reducing available seating and effectively making it impossible for a person to get through security and direct to a gate without have to go past shop after shop.

I notice you seem to feel that only since the advent of Ryanair have passengers been hard done by, funny that as I can never remember cheap drop off parking at UK's main airports nor can i remember getting value for money food either but I think everybody remembers the extortionate fares with the Saturday night stay requirement a must.

The idea that the industry is a mature one is a bit of a fallacy as kids who have grown up with cheap fares may end up not having that for a few years as family incomes drop, inevitable though given the spending splurge on credit for last 15 years. Ultimately they are the next generation of passengers who not surprisingly will grab the opportunity when old enough to take advantage of visiting wherever they wish. Recessions don't last for ever despite the actions of Governments.

FR's business model relies on being able to move its assets around to get the best return. I can think of few businesses (aside from Cruise industry) that have the opportunity to move capital assets around countries to seek the best return with little or no financial penalty. Labour has always been flexible but rarely Capital assets.

What is funny though is that IF anybody wishes to track back 18 months then the very same people hoping for Ryanairs demise were claiming that adding 40 new 738's to their fleet was impossible and the sky would fall in. They added that plus a few more since and guess what the sky is still there.

I look around at the other airlines serving UK and see their position and lets see
LH - struggling to injest over paid for acquisitions like BMI etc
BA / Iberia - Pension fund with wings with inherent major structural problems that will not go away easily, BA side struggling for funds for new planes
Easyjet - a court fight between founder and company that will go on and on, a new boss who ran a paper, funny why experienced airline people stayed away from the job, risk of implosion and name change is 20/80 but as witnessed on here there are staffing issues
US airlines - Chapter 11 revolving doors
Aer Lingus - new strategy every 6-9 months while blowing hundreds of millions of euros on sacking staff, pointless expansion and covering losses
Flybe - decent niche operator but will get gobbled up eventually which if done by Legacy will not work
AF/KLM - protected domestically in France but that won't last for ever and KLM weak because its a small part of the unit and French don't do partnerships very well
FR - retirement of MO'L prob biggest risk but then again someone following same mantle but with investment in customer service weaknesses and then where does that leave the detractors............making up more reasons to hate them I guess.

racedo - you are considerably more pro-Ryanair than me and more often than not I disagree with your opinion. Your posts do however, like Skipness, tend to have a reasonably well-argued point.

Could others perhaps try to argue their opinion in a way similiar to Skipness and racedo ? Someone like anna_list doesn't post very often here, but what anna_list writes is usually well thought out, has a good signal-to-noise ratio and makes for interesting reading.

I wouldn't think so as MAG own Bournemouth Airport and with Rynair's future there up in the air I'm sure MAG are not happy with Ryanair.

Manchester would be better off without Ryanair. Also if they were to return what routes could they operate without having an impact on there Liverpool Base. They could operate routes to Hoilday spots such as Malaga, Faro, Ibiza, Palma etc.

Prague
 

Ryanair have reversed there decision to pull flights from Prague on October 30. On there booking system it shows Stockholm Skavsta is operating but not not bookable yet.

Jamie2k9 MAG also own East Midlands which has a considerable Ryanair presence.

I do not understand why when talking about Ryanair and MAG people seem to forget this fact.

Here we go again. Why can't FR spell out what their fares actually mean? As usual they are misleading.

Ryanair guilty of misleading ads - Home News, UK - The Independent

Out of interest, other airlines behaving in exactly the same manner, and sometimes worse include JET2, Easyjet, Flybe etc etc etc

It is normal behaviour, also normal for other companies not related to aviation,

PPRuNe....some interesting stuff, but mostly a place for people to moan about stuff, cheaper than a therapist I suppose.

Bournemouth Base
 

Looks like a decision will be made by Ryanair.

Decision expected today over Ryanair's winter Bournemouth schedule (From Bournemouth Echo)

Routes on Ryanair booking system from Bournemouth which showed to be operating after October 30 but not bookable have now being taken off and all flights will end on 30 October.

"Can we not get back to talking about "Airlines, airports & routes" rather than this thread going back to the pros, cons and life story of the Ryanair business model? I always regret posting anything on here as the utter tosh that follows means I end up unsubscribing to the thread again."

Well, there is a choice, but in case you persist can I raise the issue I mentioned in my previous post, namely, the number of airports which are state owned (and monopolies)?? Can anyone explain why this is? Even the BAA which is, technically, private, has been required to divest for being monopolistic.

Mo'L, yes him again, tried to establish a new terminal at Dublin on land owned by a pal, but was shot down, can't remember what the technicality was.

Any news ragarding a possible Copenhagen base from November? It has been quit for a while, but it might be before the storm?

Personally I still think it's possible, but on the other hand not very likely to happen...

Any idea on what new routes will be announced from DUB this winter??

Jamie,

Given that its been announced they are cutting back capacity at Dublin for winter it is not likely that new routes will feature

UK, Ireland & now Germany
 

As Germany plan to interduce a Travel Tax Ryanair has threatened to withdraw planes from Frankfurt Hahn, Weeze and Bremen as well as reconsider plans to fly to other German locations.

German Air Tax Deters Budget Airline Ryanair

Sir Stelios wins apology from O’Leary
 

Sir Stelios wins apology from O’Leary

FT.com / Companies / Airlines - Sir Stelios wins apology from O?Leary


Would love to watch him say sorry, shame he wouldnt mean it :E

Fr-

Coming soon

Edinburgh - Fuerteventura

The following routes are shown but not bookable

Edinburgh - Grenoble
Edinburgh - Wroclaw

They have been there for a while and may be an error.

Ex

Edinburgh - Grenoble
Edinburgh - Wroclaw

Are not in the booking system now.

Edinburgh - Fuerteventura is bookable now and operating twice weekly