Scotland and BA
 

Further to my earlier post about the current shambles that is T5, increasing numbers of Scots going internationally are choosing to fly via Europe, the Middle East or the US rather than use T5, and more specifically, BA. Questions have even been asked in the Scottish Parliament as to why when BA has a problem the first flights to be cancelled always appear to be Glasgow or Edinburgh? In the past business leaders have demanded explanantion from Oor Wullie, but things are even worse now. And like everyone else, we Scots like our luggage to be waiting for us at our destination... together BA and BAA are a lethal combination of badly-managed incompetence.

Is there something preventing some of the flights to go back operating from their previous terminal until the T5 chaos is sorted out?

i believe the space given up by BA has been committed contractually to other airlines

However, T5 doesn't really give the best impression of the UK (nb: England is PART OF the UK) and might just affect people's perceptions of the place - especially as the T5 nonsense is plastered across most of the World's media.

Actually I've just had a perfectly reasonable experience out of and into the country through terminal 3---even if due to jet lag I thought I had landed in Bombay by mistake.
Since I fly as a holiday maker I have to use whatever airport I'm told to. But I am damn sure all "professional" travellers can and will do everything they can to use Madrid, Paris, Hamburg, whatever rather than Heathrow. And I'm damn sure they will be delighted to see them.

Hence my comment about Ferrovial assisting Barajas. It was a crack with my tongue firmly in my cheeks or whatever the saying is. :D

This is also likely to cause a significant problem if BA decide to "review" the move of the rest of their LHR operation (predominantly longhaul) at the end of the month. IMHO, they can "review" it as much as they like but it's unlikely that they'll be able to postpone it.

> "in a £4bn terminal, only five or so gates have a bimoetrics system".

I was amazed when they switched from fingerprints to iris recognition with just days to go before opening T5. I'd assumed that when the data protection people got upset they would just throw up some extra barriers to keep averyone apart while it was sorted out. I guess they must have anticipated it to some extent. Anyone know why iris recognition is OK but fingerprints aren't? Seems to make little sense.

I am wondering about what knock on effects the disruptions are having on crews.

Is this disaster badly effecting crews due to delays and frustration?

An angry crew cant be very good for safety!

Can any crew comment?

The problems have been ongoing for a while now and I wonder if the BA crews are being affected.

Re Scotland and BA
 

BA have (and have never had) any interest in serving intercontinental destinations from Scotland-or for that any other regional point in the United Kingdom.

Obviously this is not commercially viable and Emirates,Etihad,Qatar Airways are being forced to serve regional airports in the United Kingdom at a loss to themselves,not.

BA would sooner you booked a domestic sector with them to increase their profits and subject you to the horrible Heathrow disaster,as opposed to transitting somewhere like Doha or Dubai.

The perceived BA alternative to flying to LHR to connect with a long-haul flight is to drive on the awful UK road system to LHR at great cost and in so doing boost the tax revenue to the government in fuel taxes(and soon road tolls as well),and VAT for parking your car in a (probably overpriced and BAA run)car park.

Bit of thread creep but Dairyground's post 1100 was surprising only in one respect - the fact that BA robbed a serviceable aircraft for parts for one that wasnt. Last March I was at LHR on a 744 to Cape Town when the exact same thing happened (cracked bolt in the nose landing gear). We had to wait for another 744 to come in that was due for heavy maint, BA eng swapped over the bolt, filled in the forms and off we went into the night. All cheerfully announced by the flight deck, as if it was no big deal.

I assumed it was highly unusual but having read Dairygrounds post I now wonder? If this is SOP then I am appalled. I mean, how African.

Pinkman

Pinkman:

We call that process "Christmas treeing" where I come from. Provided the "parts" (usually sub assemblies such as actuators, black boxes etc.) are within their legal limits it's no big deal. Everybody does it at one time or another, and airlines have tracking systems to keep track of exactly what is fitted where to who...

Cwatters - I suspect the difference between fingerprints and iris recognition is that it's much easier to accidentally leave a fingerprint where it will embarrass or incriminate you - less easy to mislay the biometrics of your iris!

ryanair, rather than ba
 

ive never had lost luggage or late flights with ryanair, whose record is much better than ba, last time i flew easyjet i had a ba cabin crew member sitting beside me, knowing he was crew the staff were very good to him bringing him food and drink, after they had served him he made sneering remarks to me about their uniforms. i dont think ba has hte right to look down on budget airlines, at they least they get you there on time, with your bags and are polite, last time i flew ba the purser was stretched out over three passenger seats asleep

Clearly you have NO commercial awareness whatsoever. Dubai have their hub in Dubai, BA in London, both are served from Scotland. It's a classic hub and spoke operation, you can choose the BA hub, or the Emirates, or for that matter KLM hub. It is against BA's own business plan to serve a variety of long haul UK routes from outside London as they dilute the feed to London Heathrow, which is built to feed the long haul services. Think about Continental serving Bristol and Belfast, feeding their hub at Newark. Don't like Heathrow? Fly another hub, but get real about why BA don't fly long haul from say Glasgow to the US and Canada. It didn't make money and it's not the 1980s !!!

Airlines can't possibly keep all parts in stock at a time. Sometimes the nearest part could be in the USA, or on another plane, so the part is robbed from one going later to give more chance to repair it. As it has happened lots at an airline I used to work for I guess it is common practice across all airlines.
I don't see anything wrong with it, it is a servicable part so what is the problem?

Back to the thread hopefully T5 improves this week, still waiting to hear how they will work switch 2.

OK folks, the snow has gone, the belts are working fine, the bag mountain has gone. Lets take bets on how many flights are cx on tuesday.

Very common practice across the airline industry. Nothing to be appalled about really.

Well I lived the adventure, it makes for a pretty fine shopping mall I must say! Plenty of staff at Dixons, PC world, World DutyFree, had a great burger at Giraffe, oh and there’s aeroplanes with blue bellys and shooshie tails (my daughters saying) parked outside too.

HA! I had the dubious pleasure of being in transit through T5 this afternoon in uniform coming from the continent in transit to a UK domestic destination.

Getting off the plane was hassle free even getting to the immigration cue was straightforward, but definitely not enough signage.

Immigration cue….. well it was like arriving at Sydney at 6am with 4 other widebodys….. no where near enough immigration staff to deal with the numbers. Next was to be fingerprinted…. Errrr no the machine was buggered so I got my photo taken instead, which is ok however once the chap told this old fart to remove my glasses then I don’t know whether I was looking at the camera or the short skirt belonging to the blond in front of me!

Then it was up the escalator to go through security again, well if you thought the days of “flight connections” shambles at T1 was history….. its not. Cues just the same no where near enough security staff manning the new wiz bang x-ray machines for the crowds, it took close to 30 mins which is really not acceptable, given that this place was meant to be better!

The culprit was two things, staff undergoing training and the new wizbang xray machine that returns the grey buckets itself….. great idea.. less people required. However the was an lass in front of us with a Cello…. If its not in the buck it wont fit, also there was a super size me pram for twins…. Nope did no go through either…. No bucket, no fit,
Also the amount of people that set the walk through metal detector off also meant that there was no one to collect their bucket…. So there was a bucket back up to the point where no more was being screened.

In summary there would be more capacity however it is foiled but the one thing that can never be accurately gauged. The human element.

If, and this is a big If, the operators at the terminal saw what the retail “customer service” business have in relation to staff then their may actually be customer service for the airline transport medium, which I thought was one of the reasons we flew full service airlines.

Operationally I just watched a 747 sit ½ in the bay because it appeared the guidance system did not work until you guessed it the magic wands came out and they moved onto blocks. Another 5 min delay here and its subsequent flow on effects.

The finish to the building, well its not finished! Once you get away from a retail area then there is things missing… like lifts, doors, the roof, ok maybe some of it is meant to be exposed but there are some bits that are not. On the far northern end (A1/2) with some BA office/ lounge things, one of them does not even have the glass door installed yet so there is an ill fitting wooden door in frame that has gaps above and below but the keypad lock is still there.

The floors are dirty, you would not think the place has been open only a couple weeks, the loose chairs are scattered around like kids toys, there is rubbish, (food wrappers, newspaper and the like) that have not been picked up on chairs and the floors….. and come to think of it I have yet to see a cleaner doing the rounds like you used to in the other terminals.

So in summary its been rushed and that is visible, BA/BAA wanted something world class, well they got it, a World Class F***UP! Thinking of big buildings at airports HKG puts the place to shame.

Thankfully I did not have any checked bags, I would not like to have had to write that story.

Finally there is this billboard at gate A2……. Says it all really

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...5/DSC00360.jpg

Profit hunting?
 

I think the hunt will be a long an difficult journey.....oh mods at PPRUNE why did you move this thread? Have BA been onto you again?

"Hotels" provided by BA for delayed passengers?
 

http://tinyurl.com/4fxq6d

Can this get any worse? Probably!

No, BA haven't been onto us, again or ever! Are you really so dim as to believe that they are going to waste their time with what a group of "wannabe aviation experts" are discussing on here? Or, are you so full of pomposity to assume that your musings are of such importance that they should be exposed on the prime forum for all and sundry to read and absorb? :rolleyes:

This thread has been moved here because it is like a Hamsters Wheel. The content goes around and around with the opinions of self aggrandising "experts" who in reality, have only experienced "aviation" either as a passenger or with some lowly role within the business.

The few decent posts about their experiences from the front end, ie. pilots (for whom this website is primarily intended), are immediately bounced upon by more pompous "experts" whose only real reason for showing up on here is their insatiable desire to "hang on" to the coattails of those who are fortunate enough to work at the front end of the business in some perverted excuse for their own failed ambitions. As pilots, we are not primarily concerned with how airports are run. We are not "airport experts" even though we do use a bit more of them than most people.

Rumours & News section is not intended for every spotter, private pilot or aviation enthusiast to post about the latest Cessna 150 having a misfiring engine or about some newspaper report about some bimbo throwing a fit and getting chucked off a flight. R & N is not for the enthusiasts who "think" they are pseudo experts on the running of airports just because they read Flight or Aircraft Spotters Monthly magazine. It is for issues that affect OUR lives and jobs as professional pilots.

So, Willie Wash (aka BAEngineering and various others), if you're not happy that this thread has finally made it to the forum where you can debate how YOU would run things if you were ever allowed to get to the position where your decisions were likely to have an influence, then feel free to find a website where your happiness is of concern to anyone other than yourself. :ugh:

Danny...

and the tumble weed rolls on and on........

MM.

Mmm.. Danny is right but the state of the operating airfield's terminal and its effects on traffic, company operations, passenger satisfaction are important to flight crew, both at the front and the rear as well. But some of the "deeper name calling" and stuff certainly needed to be weeded out. Pity the moderators.

Has there been any reported cases of crew being out of duty hours due to these problems of getting equipment to/from the aircraft? I dare say it has not been sweetness and light for cabin crew with (justifiably) annoyed pax grumbling at cc (understandable but not justified, particularly when it is accompanied by four letter words and worse).

I dare say AtC and ground control have not been sitting with their feet up either.

Certainly over here in the land (sometimes) snow the trials and tribulations of LHR have caused some concern. Seems a sparrow needs to pass wind and LHR closes nowdays (i.e. not just T5), creating problems with AY's flights to HEL and the connection traffic into OneWorld. So far AY hasn't tried to push its "asia gateway" as hard as it could though.

I guess BA's performance also has a bottom line impact on all operating crew (not just that if htere's no BA there's no job) as pension funds and the like have investments in BA.

Well, that's certainly put us common mortals in our place.
Do forgive us, Mr "Moderator" for daring to intrude upon the crewroom.

It is, of course, the Professional Pilots' Network. I am delighted that you have been able to enjoy your flying career, earning a substantial salary whilst flying aircraft paid for by the proletariat that inconvenience your lives so much.

The MASSIVE arrogance of that submission says so much for the airline industry today ... "Sod the Proles, I'm an airline Captain".
I spent 30 years working with your arrogant self-opinionated community: it's interesting to see that nothing has changed since I retired.

Good God, man ... you are part of aviation and airports, whether you like it or not.

And we Proles pay your salary, you rude arrogant :mad:

[edited to add ... should subscription to this site be restricted to those who hold a PPL/CPL? Mine's dated 1964, BTW]

Paying Passengers ... Latest Experiences?
 

Hello, the Lower Orders of Society.

Has anyone been through T5 in the last few days?
Would you care to share your experience with us?

TWOTBAGS gave us one Paying Prole's view. :cool:
Anyone else?

TTB
 

But only if you are an ATPL and not if you are a common passenger or c150 weekend pilot!

Ah, you spotted my omission ... no, I was never ATPL.

Civil pilot, military pilot, other things .... no, let's not go into details.
I am not a Jumbo-driving God-figure.

These days I'm just a guy who pays a lot of money to keep the Gods flying. :yuk:

Dear Danny
 

Although I understand your frustration, the T5 thread brought together pilots of BA, engineers, baggage handlers and pax alike. The thread is in my view the pinacle of what a forum should be.

I am a private MEP, i run an "airline" (Seneca, private), used to be a BA gold card holder and now i dont even have a BA card anymore.

1. Yes you are right about this principally being a forum for professional pilots, but there are many threads and forums where the pilots have the upper hand within PPRuNe.
2. Yes you are right about the single sided multiple posting by individuals (or groups such as BAEngineering?) which were annoying, but still i think the thread conveyed the extreme nature of the T5 debacle.

This conveyance through this forum may well help the cause of the BA pilots who are asking in vain till now for their company to finding a new way which will secure their future in some way. Not least because during this debacle again the press has found this forum and will no doubt have been surprised by the extreme disappointment at the opening of this building and the pit it opened.

We all loose our cool from time to time. I hope you regain yours, because you run a great ship!

I will pick up on vanHorck's comments to say simply that PPRuNe in the round [and that includes the paying punters, spotters, controllers, military unwashed and many others] provides great potential for "instant information" and "informed debate".

The presence of those who are not "professionally" close to the topic in discussion may be as frustrating to you as it is to those who are trying to glean information. Especially when they wander off into the long grass ...

But please don't ever throw a wendy like that at the rest of the public. You may be The God of PPRuNe, but that was one bad-taste post. As my wife commented, after reading your post, "I hope he isn't flying us to IAD".

Moving on, I hope ... :cool:

http://demorgen.be/dm/nl/996/Economi...Heathrow.dhtml

Belgian newspaper reports 138 flights cancelled by BA yesterday and 42 today

Does anyone want to convey recent T5 experience?

I think they need to check their numbers in Belgium. I could only find 2 cancellations today on BAA and BA websites.

Went through last Friday. All ok until we got to security, the north side lanes were chokker so was directed to the south but just the same here, it took 40 mins to clear as they were only operating two scanners plus one more for club and first. There were another four scanners lying idle. (pity they dont copy Tesco and keep opening lanes until either the crowds diminish or they are all open.) Once I got through I had no time to admire the shops etc as the flight had just been called so galloped back to the north side of the terminal to be bussed out to the flight. Everything seemed to be ok, we boarded on time but the baggage trolly made frequent encoures as they must have found more luggage.
Finally ready to go approx 15 mins late only to find the ramp crew had gone AWOL, we were treated to views of the dispatcher wandering around the outside of the aircraft, radio in hand, gesticulating wildly with his hands, I can do a bit of lip reading and Im sure some of the words were French:oh:

The ramp crew were finally rounded up and we departed one hour late.

I think I will go back to using LGW until its all sorted

Danny, if this Terminal 5 is the futurre, and I think it is, I wouldn't worry about a massive stampede of us lesser mortals wanting to join up. I can take a yoghurt into my office without being touched up by a "security" person.......the golden age of aviation is long gone.

And both cancellations (to EWR and IAD) were from T4. Typical delays from T5 semed to be around ten to fifteen minutes, but some flights appear to have left up to five minutes early!

Perhaps Willie has found some of those 5000 thoroughly trained staff who were mentioned by the Directors in the 2007 Annual Report. (See page 9 at http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...d_Accounts.pdf).

One thing I keep reading (to my amazement) is comments about "being bussed" to the aircraft. Is it so (remember I am a long way from T5) that this "p.i.t.a" practice is happening as there are no airbridges or not enough airbridges for gates (i.e. remote stand) at T5 or a shortage.

Nothing can pi// a passenger off more than finally rushing to the gate to wait for a bus where everyone is cramped on board whilst there is a tour of the airfield.

Or have I misunderstood something?

Just for the benefit of any two toned proles out there, the point of my missive was that there are proles who have the audacity to have a go at me and my mods for moving a thread to what is considered a more appropriate forum. This thread was allowed to stay on the R & N forum for a long time as the tipic DID affect our lives and jobs as airline pilots. However, as is usually the case, it doesn't take long for the so called "experts" to take over the thread with their interminable arguments about how they would have run things and trying to get opposing points of view reversed.

However, if you missed that point then I suppose it is down to my lack of proper education and subsequent inability to express myself properly. If, however, you thought I was calling you a "prole" then I suppose that is your problem and may be down to personal insecurities.

Now that this thread has beeen moved to the AIRLINES, AIRPORTS & Routes forum, the "proles" and all the other people who have an opinion or experience they want to relate about T5, they can do so without clogging up OUR forums elsewhere. Gosh! Even I can come down from my lofty perch and have go on here too. :ouch:

I am due to position back into LHR later this week and I have decided to make my own travel arrangements and claim back expenses rather than have to put up with T5. Train or driving back from oop north, is bound to be quicker, less frustrating (yes, even the M6) and more straightforward with the guarantee that my bags arrive with and at the same time as me! :bored:

Danny, your points are well taken [and were actually understood from the outset].


Interesting to see you're avoiding T5 ... :hmm:

T5 running very well over the last two days
 

Looking at the take off times compared to schedule it looks like there has been a near 80% departure within 20 minutes reflected in the arrival times on page 445 on ceefax. Believe there are still problems with baggage but BAA and IBM are sorting them out. BA has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware or software that runs the baggage system.

Have just had my first T5 experience flying to ABZ. Have to say that I am very impressed with the new place. Had no wait to check my case in, no delay and very efficient through security. Lots of room in the departures area and great views! Once any remaining glitches are sorted I really think it will make travelling through Heathrow a much more pleasant experience. :ok: (and didn't see 1 cancelled flight on the boards!!!)