It's already happening.

The UGL union say they've been told that the layoff process is starting today.

CAI have suspended due diligence, but not withdrawn their offer.

more details here

ANSA.it - News in English - Alitalia talks hit impasse

Ivor

and a smaller hole in the pockets of the Italians...which are tired to waste money in a looser...the second time that the Unions reject a deal...(2 opportunities that the employees of other busted carrier did not have...)
I will not miss Alitalia at all!

Alitalia moved closer to bankruptcy when Roberto Colaninno's investor group abandoned negotiations after unions refused to accept its rescue plan. The investors walked out of talks with unions today over the airline's rescue plan.

"After seven days of meetings, there aren't conditions to continue negotiations,'' Colaninno's Compagnia Aerea Italiana said in an e-mailed statement. The unions "don't seem to realize what a dramatic situation Alitalia is in,'' CAI said, adding that it hasn't formally withdrawn its offer. CAI's plan proposed 3,250 job cuts and the sale of unprofitable assets including the airline's cargo and maintenance businesses. The government had given unions a deadline of yesterday to reach an agreement.

Labor Minister Maurizio Sacconi, who had led the round of talks with a Thursday deadline, told reporters that the investors had "pulled out of the negotiations" as there was no "shared view."
"The situation is worrisome," he said, although he expressed hope that it could still change.

"This has become the latest act in the Alitalia soap opera and one has to hope that it's just some arm wrestling between the two sides and that they will get back to negotiations,'' said Patrizio Pazzaglia, a money manager at Bank Insinger de Beaufort NV in Rome. "That would be the best scenario from a market perspective.''

"The situation is worrisome and getting worse,'' Labor Minister Maurizio Sacconi said in Rome today. "Alitalia won't be able to operate much longer if there aren't new developments.''

Alitalia has nine main unions that failed to forge a common position on the plan, prompting separate negotiations with the different labor groups. The sticking point is proposed salary reductions for the workers who would remain in the reorganized company rather than the number of jobs cuts, union officials said.

"We know that there will be job cuts and workers will be asked to do more, but we don't see any reason why we should accept a cut in salary as well.'' said Luigi Angeletti, national secretary of the UIL union.


Gathered from the latest newsfeeds.


Edit: Oops, two members from Finland are, as it seems, most interested in Alitalia? :rolleyes: Just a pure coincidence, I'm sure...

Let's not forget around 15% of AZ employees have a special interest in AZ going bust, mostly through massive compensations should this terrible event occur. Are those very interested people taking part in the discussions ?

Anyhow, both AF and LH have already alternative plans ready. These plans probably won't include the hiring of AZ employees, or so few...

I wouldn't be surprised all this will turn into a messy fight between opposing categories of staff at AZ very soon.

If the employees aren't willing to make concessions to keep their jobs, good riddence:E. Many other people out there who are willing to work.

I fear the impending demise of Alitalia is going to be a particularly ugly one.

There'll be no demise of Alitalia.

I predict another bail-out...

Quote
If the employees aren't willing to make concessions to keep their jobs, good riddence
Unquote


Most pax using Alitalia might not miss most of the employees deployed as CC or check-in staff, anyway.

DCS99 at this point another bailout by the state is unlikely, because "the regional party of the north", part of gov. coalition is opposing strongly to what is seen as a favor to "lazy romans", and then it would be too much against what the italian PM has promised at election time.
At this point anything can happen but whatever it will be, will favour the investement groups and the banks that have total support by said PM.
Again about him, still yesterday he was announcing to have "mantained the promise of saving alitalia", to which he will add that the grounding is wanted by unions and their communist supporters.

How will The Pope get home??

Hope The Vatican booked by credit card............

The Pope is smarter than you might have expected. To my knowledge, he travels to the destination usually with Alitalia, but returns aboard of the plane that belongs to the country he just visited (its national carrier of course). ;)

As a northern Euorpean I have no idea about the internal dynamics in Italy (can’t wrap my mind around the unions attitude), but the stakes being played for are extremely high. In previous posts I have made clear what my opinion is. Here is an interesting article on Airwise as it relates to the true costs and structure of the proposed deal.

September 12, 2008
Italy's rescue of Alitalia followed a familiar "Italian solution" script supported by governments in the country, where domestic investors step in to bail out a company considered strategic to thwart foreign control.

But critics and the opposition say the patriotic rescue called for by Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi ultimately will be financed by Italians, whose taxpayer funds were also used to lend EUR300 million euros to the cash-strapped airline in April.

The Economist magazine estimated that at the end of the rescue, about EUR5 billion of public money will have been pumped into saving Alitalia over the years, or about EUR125 by each Italian taxpayer.
Here's how the Italian solution could end up costing the state and taxpayers:

HIGHER AIRFARES
Consumer groups and competitors complain that the government's suspension of antitrust laws to permit Alitalia to merge with domestic rival Air One will give it monopoly control over the lucrative Milan-Rome route and increase fares.

Noting that Alitalia and Air One together control 67 percent of traffic at Milan's Linate Airport and 58 percent at Rome's Fiumicino Airport, low-cost rival carrier easyJet was one of several critics to warn that this could restrict choice and lead to "extremely high" fares.

GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR BAGGAGE HANDLERS?
Alitalia's employees have long enjoyed generous benefits and pay and fended off successive restructuring efforts thanks to the political muscle of their unions, who felled a sale of the airline to Air France-KLM this year.

Eager to avoid a fresh union backlash, the government has promised welfare benefits for seven years and the option of jobs at other public or private firms for the more than 3,000 employees who will be
laid off.

One newspaper estimated the welfare benefits alone for fired employees will cost the state EUR1 billion.

BAILING OUT SMALL INVESTORS
The government also plans to refund small savers who had invested in Alitalia by turning to dormant public funds available to it, a move expected to cost EUR200 million - EUR300 million according to La Repubblica newspaper.

A group representing investors had threatened lawsuits if they were not compensated.

ALITALIA'S "BAD COMPANY"
Under the "Phoenix" plan, Alitalia's profitable parts will be sold off to Italian investors while its troubled parts and debt of more than EUR1 billion will likely be liquidated, with the state likely to absorb the losses.
End.

Ps. Wow 5 billion euros! Must make one proud to be Italian.:yuk::}:ooh:
As a frame of reference. Current Market Capitalization of British Airways is 3.8 billion euros, at current exchange rates. You could buy all outstanding shares in the worlds largest carrier (by turnover) Air France/KLM for that amount of money and still have 7 million euros left over.

When the negotiations fell, what you can do? You can pray, of course, or... you can start printing posters. These are just published by Piero Marrazzo, the President of Lazio Region.

Alitalia
 

Just seen on BBC news 24. Alitalia have announced they cannot confirm any flights after tomorrow due to shortage of fuel.

The end is nigh!

Not really a shortage of fuel, rather a lack of ability to pay for it!

From the BBC;


Alitalia 'running out of fuel'
Breaking News

Italy's troubled national airline, Alitalia, cannot guarantee flights beyond Sunday because of a lack of funds to buy fuel, a top official says.

"Until the end of tomorrow, flights are guaranteed. From Monday, they are not," Augusto Fantozzi, Alitalia's bankruptcy administrator, told unions.

Mr Fantozzi was speaking a day after talks on a rescue plan for the ailing airline broke down.

Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi blamed "political" motives for the failure.




PP

According to the BBC Alitalia can no longer guarantee flights from Monday due to a lack of funds to pay for fuel!

A matter of time probably.
But for how many decades did they already survive what should have been the final reality check.
A cat ( supposedly ) has nine lives, think Alitalia must be on about number 12.
This will not be pretty to watch, I just hope the poor folk at the coal face being used as pawns between the Govt ,the Unions, and God knows who else. . . can salvage as many jobs as possible for themselves.
The company is full of dead wood and sons and cousins of same, but many of the normal folk employed there did not enjoy the "dolce vita", as I found out one day discussing our respective monthly planning with an AZ MD80 crew.
Hope it works out OK for you guys, try and lose some/all of the freeloaders in the transition to Ally-Light.

AZ
 

Beat me to it but here is the link for what it is worth.

BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Alitalia 'running out of fuel'

Pete

Sad day for the 'Spaghetti Express', agree my dealings with them were 'Manager this, Manager that, Manager when, Manager what the ****' It took 5 days (and 5 very nice lunches I may add) to get one lack lustre decision, and they were paying me!

Good luck to all the good Flt Crew and Flt Ops staff I knew.

Alitalia 'can guarantee no flights after Sunday'
 

Alitalia cannot guarantee any flights after Sunday because of lack of fuel, Alitalia special administrator Augusto Fantozzi said Saturday.
No-one will supply kerosene to Alitalia after sunday....

actually heard the same but operations are ending at midnight tonight?

G-STAW

anyone got a match?
 

Goodness do they still refer to go juice as Kerosene? (thought that was a nasty Greek wine!)

An old mate of mine did a B767 delivery flight for Alitalia many many years ago and he came back from Italy with stories of their flight deck appearing on the ramp, to greet the new 'flagship' as it was then, en masse wearing their armani uniforms, cashmere overcoats (draped over shoulders) and their rayban sunglasses perched atop caps. Pity someone didn't see the writing on the wall way back then!

Give them the Kerosene a company that shows such ineptness is probably only worth setting a light to anyways! more scraps around for the survivors!

hi bladepilot, I understand your enviousness , but , although I am also an ''turboblade ''pilot, it is no the right time to commence the party for another announced bankruptcy in the airline industry.....wich one will come next? my or your company ?......black clouds for us guy.....

How come it's all the 767 operators going under?? Perhaps I should take it off my licence!

LJ

ps... this should really be moved and merged with the other Alitalia threads that say the same thing!

airman13,
Sorry remind me again how long Alitalia has been 'solvent' how many injections of Itialian Tax payers money have they recently had? I think you'll find they actually went 'dunlops up' a while back!:=

Next Airline To Go Bust? Betting
BBC NEWS | World | Europe | Alitalia 'running out of fuel'
Fuel supply problems could ground Alitalia flights | Business | guardian.co.uk

They will not be allowed to go under. Govt will bail them out again, always have always will. Off to book my ticket to Milan now.:)

From the BBC.

Alitalia
 

Now I know this is bad for some but Ryanair would love this one
and they are still in talks for some bigger A/C maybe some 777
coming on the market soon ?http://aolsearch.aol.co.uk/aol/redir...=Image Details

All I can say is good riddance, it is this kind of state funded 'white elephant' that mains that other airlines are put at a disadvantage. Alitalia and most of the US carriers have been running effectively bankrupt since the late 90's. In Alitalia's case the airline could be restructered if it weren't for the ludicrous claims from the unions. I heard that one of the sticking points with the pilot union is they refused to budge on their contractual limit of 65 flying hours per month. You will never make money with that sort of attitude. As always I don't like to see anyone lose their jobs and hopefully a restructuring plan can still be hashed out.

I agree with Artificial Horizon

This behaviour of Unions is not of this time and onl benefits short time the few at the expense of all others.

It is time the unions anywhere started thinking of the balanced long term health of the companies and within that the positions of their members rather than the narrow minded short term money draining on behalf of their members in a much more dynamic world than the fifties of the previous century...

no one can afford only looking at their own picture any more, not the managers, not the unions. Only cooperation and looking at the entire framework of the industry can safeguard jobs long term

The really sad thing is that when Alitalia does go the way of the Dodo, all these pilots/crew/others will have to go and get themselves another job and the lucky ones to actually get an airline job in this current climate will find themselves working a lot harder for a lot less then was being offered to them in order to save the airline!
There always has to be a bit of give and take between management and Unions and clearly the Italian unions have failed to read that chapter in the manual.

Dutch news states that there are emergency talks going on between Berlusconi and the Unions

tax collectors??? Now that's funny from the biggest tax dodger of them all!!
Let the waste of space that is Alitalia die and let something useful come out of the ashes.

what others european unions say about Alitalia.....
 

http://www.eurocockpit.be/media/Alit..._08_0911_F.pdf

Presseaussendung - ANPAC / Italienische Piloten

European Cockpit Association (ECA) Website - Italian Pilots Call for Recognition of their Unique Contribution to the Industry

Les pilotes d'Alitalia | Syndicat National des Pilotes de Ligne (SNPL)

Norsk Flygerforbund

PRESS RELAESE FROM APPLA (PORTUGUESE AIRLINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION) AND
SPAC (PORTUGUESE CIVIL PILOTS UNION)

After the declared bankruptcy of the italian airline Alitalia, and in
a quest to inflict in the employees the effects of several years of
poor management, the Pilots all across Europe are showing extreme
solidarity to their Italian fellow colleagues, in what is considered
to be an attempt against professional airline Pilots and their careers.

In fact, and according to the Press Release from ECA - European
Cockpit Association, which we attached, the demand and specifications
of the Pilots working practices are in stake not allowing for a single
contract.

APPLA and SPAC hereby show their total understanding and solidarity
with their Italian colleagues.

APPLA and SPAC
PORTUGAL



Enjoy your readings
Stef

I agree with previous posters on the fact that the union/government (same, same I guess??) has made it impossible to restructure Alitalia in the past and/or to save it now. However, to imply that one of the issues that made it impossible was the unions refusal to bulge on the 65 hr / month "rule" is BS. 65 hrs per month average flying means 780 hrs per year! If you can't make a major airline profitable because of this then you should close down the shop no matter what. I think their issues reaches far beyond the 65 hours per month....

od

What is the monthly max for other major European airlines? Are Alitalia's work rules that much different? It seems to be a popular theme for incompetent management to blame the line workers for everything.

Well in my airline and I believe throughout the EU, legislation is set at 900 hours PA so that averages at 75 hours a month. Now each year over the last 3 consecutive years I have spent almost 2 months sitting on my arse on standby (I use that term loosely as there is nothing they could give me) because I regularly maxed my hours despite taking all my allocated leave and perhaps the odd period of sickness. So to be honest it sounds to me that the 65 hours at AZ would probably be rather more realistic in order to maintain a fluid roster.

Wish I could do 65 hours a month! :hmm: