Look at this:
On the other hand:

EI-RB, such arrogance. What do you know of the many excellent and hard working staff of Alitalia in Italy? In fact, what do you know of anything about aviation judging from your posts?
Your style is that of a 15 year old spotter, so why don't you shut up while real people with real lives and real families face a very uncertain future? How dare you make a mockery of such people? How can you possibly say everyone is to blame and should therefore suffer?
I hope if your daddy/mummy lost their jobs you'd still get your pocketmoney :yuk:

Alitalia Will Survive
 

latest news, alitalia will survive thanks to their hard working people.

Sounds very pathetic! Is the situation that bad already? :ooh:

Alitalia has been hangin' on a thread for a long time.

On one hand i'm very curious how this will end, but on the other hand i hope all will end well....

I can fully respect the fact that there must be all manner of talented and dedicated people working in the ranks of Alitalia. I further accept that people's livelihoods are at stake and as a consequence that of their families.

However the health of the company here is the point of discussion and not directly an attack on the staff but nevertheless from time to time the company's finacial standing is linked to staff utilisation and performance. What's mentioned is nothing different from other corporate analysts expressing views on Alitalia's future besides it's better to have a future than none at all. If Alitalia looked around themselves at where the industry is going they might not have found themselves in this position.

A company whether private or publically owned is subject to scrutiny from all aspects whether that be institutions, employees or good old customers.

AZ will survive
 

AZ will survive!!!!! I miss my "Spaghetti Express" between LGW & BLQ out Fri back Mon, always got an upgrade, no chance on "Imperial" The BLQ station staff are a fine & fun bunch.

alitalia do not beleive at the newspapers
 

ALITALIA IS NOT CLOSING DOWN !!!! just newspaper rubbish , they tried to sell it, in certain conditions without success thats all. Alitalia staff earns at least 35% less than other european airline, and work longer hours up to 14 with 2 pilots.

Alitalia: how long to go before bankruptcy?
 

Two weeks ago the Italian Government failed to find a buyer who could help the troubled airline. Today the CEO, Bernardino Libonati, resigned.

When do you think Alitalia will go bankrupt?
Or will they get even more money from the European Union?

Maybe this answers your question:

http://ichart.europe.yahoo.com/c/3m/a/aza.mi

Hello all:
I was on anther thread & the Administrator moved me to this thread. I have non refundable tickets on Alitalia to fly from JFK to Rome on Aug 12th & returning to JFK from Florence via Rome on Aug. 29th. Any current information you can provide would be greatly appreciated as in the United States there is absolutely no information on Alitalia. Thanks.

again
 

do not beileve at the newspaper, meanwhile I wish that stupid ei-rb who knows notting about Italy to R.I.P. himself, next time shut up :mad::mad: do not offend thousand of people working honestly in Italy with Alitalia.this terrorist news that alitalia is closing down should be censored, because is not absolutely true.

But if the Government are not allowed to put any more money in and no-one wants to buy it, how can it continue?

alitalia
 

who told you that nobody wants to buy it? they just want the lowest price ,thanks to a ridiculous government they will succeed thats all.

winglet1961Sounds like two more reasons not to travel with them.

fox ninerThey have survived a long time but are probably moving into the last phase BUT that phase could be extended by another year. Note that I am NOT in the airline/govt/finance world.

They do not receive money from the EU, this practice was stopped many years ago. Also subsidies from their own govt are not permitted. This questions sounds like you might be based in the USA (your profile does not state). There is a continuing belief that European airlines are subsidised by the EU. Whilst some grants are available for specific purposes, it is nothing like it was 20 years ago. I will not comment further about this topic as it usually gives rise to terminal thread drift and a considerable amount of misunderstanding and anger across the pond!

Actually, much to the EU's distaste, the Italian government provided a "final" support package to Alitalia just a couple of years' ago or so - a package that was permitted by the EU as the result of extensive work undertaken by my former firm.

Unfortunately anyone who thinks that Alitalia will be supported again, or indeed will last in its present form for much longer, is indeed living in cloud cuckoo land.

Whether Alitalia pilots work harder than at other airlines, I don't know, but that is largely irrelevant. There are simply too many staff, uncompetitive sub-contractors, and out-dated route structures for the company to survive as it is at the moment.

While painful, the best future for the Alitalia brand, is a massive reduction in the involvement of the state, such that the company can be restructured in some way to resemble a commercial enterprise - for example reducing operations at Rome and removing unprofitable routes and fleets.

Without this, ever fewer jobs will be saved by the day.

I disagree with the present eu policy,it does not allows big carrier to get pubblic money, in Italy ,Alitalia is part of a system that gives jobs to thousand of people, in university, school ,and so on,... so!!! the money goes back to the system ,on the other hand allows the so called low cost, to get (indirecty) pubblic money from tourist agency ,airport ,owned by pubblic company that loose money with them, but will get money back again from the central govemment .and... we are talking money, an Italian weekly estimated 400 million euro given to the low cost ,of course all of this money goes outside Italy no taxes paid in Italy,, not even people working, and living permanently in Italy pay taxes in Italy, thank you EU!!

@winglet1961
"the money goes back to the system"
This phenomenon is well-known to the economy and called the protectionism. I thought you did realize how inferior in relation to nowadays' free trade this trend was. The world changes continually and irreversibly. All kinds of dinosaurs and mammoths could have been gorgeous animals if they survived until now, but can you imagine them alongside of us in today's world?

Hi there pax poy,
you wrote:

Nope. As a matter of fact I am an EU citizen and live in an EU country, (not Italy) And don't worry: I know where my tax money goes. Part of it goes to the EU, and a part of that goes to Italy, and a part of that goes to Alitalia. It might not be very obvious, but I always had the feeling that Alitalia was kept afloat by means of MY tax payments. And this charade has to stop.

fox niner Fair enough. Every govt will try and subsidise it's own companies by fair means or foul. Many of their voters expect that is what they will do!! However, the problem for Italy and AZ is that every one else in their field of business has been changing - and they have not.

In the 1980s we had the reverse problem in the UK. This is not the ideal example as it does not line up directly but it concerns govt subsidies. Our prime minister (Thatcher) decided that we should not subsidise coal and, coupled with a very unpleasant strike and trouble - did so. Unfortunately, all our competitors did not reduce their subsidies and we lost out.

Well, we lost the uncompetitive industries, resulting in the UK's wealth leaping ahead of France and those others: result being more efficient allocation of resources AND lower unemployment.

Support for state enterprises has to be the maddest concept ever as a result.

Actually re-heat that is totally false.
In the last ten years, we have lost around 2 Million manufacturing jobs to be replaced by £6 an hour service industry jobs.
The only people who have seen wealth creation are the financiers pushing other peoples money around and not paying UK taxes.
The economy is based upon credit where people have lived on the increase in value of their houses, whilst many people cannot get onto the property ladder now.

With greatest respect to your opinion, that is the Daily Mail version of events - the economic reality of the UK is far removed from that: consider the difference between £6 per hour in a mining business that making no overall profit, or £6 per hour in a call centre that is profitable.

The UK is far wealthier as a result of those changes, as government are inefficient allocators of capital - what this means is that the opinions of many people in a market are far better at making decisions in aggregate the the opinion of a small, closed group of people in government running a state enterprise. As we all know, the more opinions the better, and this is ONLY achieved in a market.

Alitalia, permitted to operate as such, could very well be sustained into the future - similar to BA, Lufthansa, Iberia and others. Inefficiently supported by the state will only result in taxpayers' cash being allocated to unprofitable enterprises to the detriment of the whole economy.

Needless to say, if you don't want to believe the above, you won't, but then again my opinion as an economist is supported by the vast majority of other economists and financial professionals.

I am sorry re-heat but we are not talking about £6 an hour in mining vs £6 in an Indian call centre.
We are talking about British peoples jobs being exported, from £10 an hour manufacturing in the UK or Western Europe being replaced by jobs in China at £2 an hour, with none of the rules and regulations imposed on industries as the EU does.
These manufacturing bases in China are 50% owned by the Chinese government and subsidised by that same government.

Indian call centres, £6 an hour? no way, more like £3 an hour.
The UK is not far wealtier, more and more individuals are crippled with debt and IVA's and bankruptcies are rising at a penominal rate.
Service industries are now beginning to feel the effect, as people have less disposable income. Only a section, who have made money from selling the UKs silver and do not pay tax in the UK are wealthier.

Alitalia is juts another european company which is being destroyed by EU regulations, whilst outside the EU governments continue to subsidise their industries to keep their residents in jobs.

Just wait until the Open Skies agreement comes into full flow, watch the European airlines go, and the jobs follow.

OIpen skies will not make more people fly, just the same amount pushing for cheaper fares.

No, you were talking about manufacturing jobs that have been lost from the UK in your first post - if unemployment declines in the UK (which it has), these jobs have clearly been replaced, and that is with new jobs in service industries instead.

So long as net employment is unaffected - in fact globalisation has benefitted us - it matters not where manufacturing jobs are now performed, as the service industries that now dominate the UK better fit the skills of the population, and result in sustainable, profitable industries.

I'm afraid that the rest of your post is alarmist claptrap.


Search the internet for the "Guns and Butter" economic theory of globalisation - it should explain to anyone why such specialisation and globalisation benefits us all, and is based upon some very simply calculations.

The jobs have been replaced with jobs paying a lot less than the originals, plus unemployment is still rising, even if you accept the Governments massaged figures.
But thats ok eh? people with less disposable income are not going to have any effect on the economy is it? especially one now based upon the service industry, the facts are that bankruptcies and IVA's are on the increase as the burden of debt engulfs these people.

You obviously have no involvement with the Chinese or the way they are doing buisness, else you would understand how their system works and you have yet to feel the full force of the Open skies agreement, something that is not in the best interests of the airline workers, but you will see if its "alrmist claptrap" or not, but by then it will be too late for the industry as it currently stands.

Globalisation benefits a small few making larger profits then moving on to the next country to destroy their national economy with no regard to what they leave behind. Globalistaion is NOT Capitalism, but theft in its purest form.
When China "Globalises", it will not be for the benefit of us in Western Europe, nor for the ordinary Chinaman, as their system is still based upon a warped version of Communism and corruption.
Already we have seen cutting of corners to produce their cheaper products, from toothpaste, tyres that shred and lead in toys. Its a Brave New world you are championing!

Why do you think that so many people now go out their way to buy Fair Trade products? They have seen through the economy destroying nonsense you are spouting.

I think this is getting a little heated and only opinions from whatever side of the political spectrum you support. I am in Italy this week at Verona airport and the locals here seem in no doubt that there is no way that Alitalia will be permitted to fold up. There is already industrial action by the ground staff at Rome and views here are that if they were allowed to fail it coulld bring a change of government and it just will not happen.

Yes, as for shoddy toothpaste and drugs, the Chinese just executed the head of their FDA for bribery - that shows how seriously they want to ensure quality in their industries at the moment.

Not sure I can convince warkman, so let's just leave that argument, so the thread remains on topic for now.

winglet1961, taxes to Italy: from Pavarotti to Valentino Rossi maybe???:=

Good morning all:
Just to change the subject for 1 item. Do they use handicapped Stickers & have special places for people with handicappes to park their cars (mine will be rented) in Italy? I have a portable sticker which i can bring to put on the rear view mirror.
I just heard from someone that there are huge luggage delays at the Rome airport but the airport is putting on extra people to help clear it up. Some people said it took 3 hours to get their luggage & many pieces never showed up. Any news would be helpful. Thanks.

taxes in Italy
 

Hi penTito, They 've got already Pavarotti ,and today fresh news is that, Valentino Rossi has to pay in Italy about 60 milion euro in taxes from past years, and I think they are working on ryanair, and easyjet ,as they are doing in france hopefully, as at least in europe we have to play the same card game.

Do the enormous earnings of Luciano Pavarotti and Valentino Rossi come from the tickets / royalties / sponsorships payed by Italians only? I thought they were the stars popular all over the world. And you want that the taxes incurred on earnings from the entire world were used to prop-up just Alitalia, but not Ryanair, to mention just those two?

Revisiting this thread after nearly five days, I did not realise what a can of worms I had opened when I mentioned UK job subsidies. :eek:

At the risk of trying the patience of the Mods even more [doffs cap] ... all countries are going to subsidise some jobs at some times. These will drift in and out of fashion. For example (here I go again :uhoh:) farming subsidies are still very popular with some but they are losing favour. Airlines are also losing favour (in some countries) as they loose the glitter they took on from their respective merchant navies. The glitter is that of representing the country and that ghastly phrase, 'flying the flag'. The flag used to fly on the boat, then on the tail of the a/c but the greater movement of people means that the airline is not the exclusive and glittery thing it once was. Thus, subsidies are removed.

The problem is that subsidies tend to be removed in, almost, one go. This leaves people high and dry for work, often at a difficult age. If subsidies for coal in the UK had been reduced steadily and openly across ten years, say, then we might have avoided the social catastrophe. But we know that politicians cannot think that far ahead. They used to think five years ahead and now it's only one year. Likewise, commerce cannot wait to get profits in Year 10, it wants them NOW.

Slow and steady change is best for humans but humans usually resist change so long that, when it eventually happens, it is usually too fast. Just like (another example) tectonic plates that build up against each other for decades and then slide past in one great event.

The tectonic plates of Sabena and SwissAir have moved but Alitalia's are still building up pressure.

"techtonic plates"... what a great analogy PaxBoy I love it.... :ok:
I think I'll use that term for the meeting this afternoon :D

Good one fella .... :ok:

eu01, we are talking personal income tax, so one is liable where one is resident for tax purposes, no? but italian goverment freely admits that more than a quarter of the gdp is :in nero", ie not paying into the tax system (the legal one), not to mention Tanzis (parmalat) and alike :ugh:.

eu01 -I like to prop-up best Alitalia, than ryanair, not to mention that the tax level in ireland is half than Italy,this was allowed since ireland was a poor country, is still ireland a poor country? again eu01: protectionism in Italy ? Alitalia is the only airline in europe that was forced below 50% share in domestic market .I don't thing eu01 knows well Italy just reading or listening rubish news .

Or how about the biggest handouts going at the moment?
Shares massively drop in price the national banks come in with Millions of Dollars, Sterling and Euros to bail them out and stop them from falling!
So much for market forces eh?
Orb is this form of subsidy acceptable????? :suspect::suspect:

No, not better than other European countries. I just happen to sympathize with the genuine free market, where the truly efficient firms win without propping them out. If Alitalia were able to perform great metamorphosis and just stopped losing money after many years of inertia, my sympathy goes to them as well. It's as simple as that.

eu01 ,tell me one airline in europe who does'nt get pubblic money, in a way or in another. please don't say low cost because they have money as much as traditional carrier.

I agree, it is disgusting - the market should punish the weak and reward the strong to the benefit of the wider economy, rewarding those who managed their risk and took the better business decisions.

IKB should have been allowed to collapse, and I am disgusted that there is no talk at all of preventing the handouts from KfW and the other banks to keep their peer in business.

State-owned with cross-ownerships - sounds like Japan in the 90s before their crash. Let's hope Italy and Germany change their ways before they end up there as well.