Flybe/Bacon - 4
 

I had the misfortune to fly Flybe on MAN-CDG-MAN last week. Outbound we were sat at the gate while a member of Flight Safety management shouted down here mobile to someone in the office that "they were shooting themselves in the f@cking foot" by not chocking the wheels and coning off the wingtips right". Boarding time came and went and we were informed that there would be a delay due to "security" issues, just as the cleaners got on and they emptied the toilet, yeah right, security. Finally got on twenty minutes after scheduled departure time and on the taxi to the runway we had to park up, as the captain informed us "the ground crew disconnected the generator so the aircraft had been sat so long that it's batteries had lost almost all charge". Finally got airborne and the remainder of the journey was uneventful apart from the improbably young and skinny first officer. Coming back on an EMB145 (far better than the dash in my opinion) we were again delayed, this time as the captain informed us, "due to things that you wouldn't believe at Manchester, it's really ridiculous there at the moment". I'm presuming that he was referring to the type of ground handling mistakes that had occurred on the outbound leg, seems a little unprofessional of the captain but then I suppose he's frustated.


CONTINUATION OF: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251059&page=17

You're dead right to be worried. On the return journey pax for BHD have to disembark, clear immigration, (ie go land side), then re-embark through fast track security.
25 minutes turn round - dream on!
Just tell me about it. This outfit is a joke. Worse than your average air taxi operator.

[/QUOTE]Boarding time came and went and we were informed that there would be a delay due to "security" issues, just as the cleaners got on and they emptied the toilet, yeah right, security.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the cleaners had to wait before the security issue was sorted out?

Which A/c was it, Q400? If so they have there own power unit. I cant remember or have seen the Dash 300 do a CDG flight.
Even so, once the engines are running, they then supply the power anyway to the a/c not the apu. So the above comment seems a bit strange.

The 145's are going to be phased out by the Q400's, so if you flyBE you are going to see alot more of them.....

As for the Capt's comment of "to things that you wouldn't believe at Manchester, it's really ridiculous there at the moment," seems a bit unprofestional to say something like that over the tanoy. :=

TBH if you now hate flybe because of this one trip, try Air France or Jet2. :rolleyes:

Air France - how refreshing CDG - MAN. Big aircraft (Airbus), loads of stowage (no "that bags too big - put it in the hold"), sockets to power laptop and plenty of space to use it, and a great (free) breakfast to boot.
Flybe/Bacon - get real.

IM guessing the price is different to.

FlyBE - Eco

AirFrance -Eco


An extra £39 pounds when it cost just £3 to check a bag in. Also the flybe flights I took, were not the cheapist on the day.
Just tried to get the times more or less the same. There are alot less flights to CDG from AF than BE, so if you are a business traveller, it might BE better for you?

Oh and a A319 is the smallist plane Airbus make :p

Techproblem
 

If we ignore the A318, then the A319 is indeed the smallest plane Airbus makes. As for schedules, AF runs 5 per day (4 Airbuses of differing marques and 1 FK70/ERJ145) and BE 4 Mon-Fri. 2 on Sa and 3 on Sun.

On most flights (especially the early) MAN-CDG the Air France flight gets to CDG first irrespective of who leaves MAN first. "Jersey xxx - Paris, reduce speed 220 kts, turn right 60 degrees". "Air France xxx maintain 300 kts plus, direct MERUE".
A few minutes less for breakfast but certainly guaranteed on stand first.
Also remember most business punters get a far better corporate rate than website quotes.

Which A/c was it, Q400? If so they have there own power unit. I cant remember or have seen the Dash 300 do a CDG flight.
Even so, once the engines are running, they then supply the power anyway to the a/c not the apu. So the above comment seems a bit strange.

Q400 does have an APU, true, but it would appear from the comments in the article that the a/c was on ground power during the turnaround. If the GPU drops off line, or gets disconnected inadvertantly, then the batteries take a major hit and it can take anything up to 50 minutes with engines running to reach the acceptable limitations for take off.

As for the ex-Rasher captain, frustration we can understand, but that is just unprofessional and makes him sound like a tool. Probably one of the guys who is leaving, so hopefully good riddance.

I wasn't having a pop at Flybe per-se, was just pointing out that they seem to having handling problems at MAN that they are very aware of and the customer service issues that they bring up. As for the points raised in the replies, the aircraft had been parked on stand for a good hour with no activity going on right up until the supposed boarding time, when fueling, and nothing else commenced, surely the security and cleaning could have been done in this time? As for the APU, yes, it was a Q400, but the point the captain made was that as it had been disconnected there wouldn't have been enough time on the taxi to charge the batteries adequately, hence we had a five minutes sit in the engine run up area to ensure we had sufficient power. As for the you get what you pay for argument, well, this was originally booked as a BA Miles reward flight, so for nothing I'm guessing I shouldn't really complain, at least FlyBe offer a MAN-CDG now. As for Air France, used them last year, thought they were great, probably not great enough to justify the extra cost, but when you're on a a through ticket from MAN to the far east it's probably as good as being for free anyway. Anyway, to confirm my earlier post "Flybe seem to think that their handling at Manchester is appalling"

Frankfurt - I don't want to get unnecessarily technical, but just to clarify Maude's comment about the APU/GPU, as he says it sounds as though the aircraft was being powered by a Ground Power Unit during the turnaround as the aircraft's Auxiliary Power Unit may have been broken. If the GPU trips off for any reason the aircraft's batteries are the only things powering the aircraft, and can take a big hit if the problem goes unnoticed. This could have been a contributory factor in the turnaround taking so long, i.e. once the problem was noticed the GPU would be reconnected and allowed to charge the batteries, and the Captain may have elected to delay boarding for the batteries to recharge. Additionally, with the APU broken and therefore not providing air conditioning the departure longe is definitely a more comfortable environment than the cabin on warm days.

With a bad GPU the aircraft's batteries would have then taken a further large hit during engine start, so during the taxi phase the crew would not have been waiting for the aircraft to reach adequate power, but for the battery charge rate to reach the required minimum level for take off, as dictated by the aircraft's operating manual.

last item in Q400 shutdown checklist....Batt;s & Batt Master,,,!
Follow SOP's - funny thing eh they are there for a reason & also no excuses as it is a Challenge & response!

Actually, the final item on the shutdown checklist it is Battery Master only, and set 'as required'. On a turnaround, this would normally remain on, so as to avoid plunging everything into darkness and requiring a complete reset of the flight deck instruments/FMS. I can see flying with you would be a lot of extra work.

:}

I would agree however, that best practice on an extended turnaround where the crew have vacated the flight deck, is to turn the 3 batteries off which would help to avoid just this kind of situation.

I'm not meaning to be pedantic but I thought MAN had FEP's on each stand to cut down the use of GPU's ? From past experience, it was difficult to tell if the FEP was on or off, even though it was plugged into the aircraft, until we were in the 'office' and we were met with an array of black screens, or not as the case may be.

"Flybe seem to think that their handling at Manchester is appalling"

Wheres your proof of this statement? Official source? or just plain old claptrap?

If your judging that comment based on a disgruntled captains view (probably ex bacon) then maybe you should rethink it and take a deeper look into things.

Everyone is so keen to flame the new handling agent at MAN but delays are often due to crew sickness, tech or LIAC.
Under the circumstances that flight support have been under, they have done amazingly well given the time to prepare for flybe and train staff up ready for it.

Was over on fraggle rock last week and flew with Flybe. No problems either way, outbound and inbound on time and a 145 instead of the old tractors Bacon used. Coming back into Man got off the plane at 1410, walked into arrivals and my case was on the belt waiting for me (never happened when flying BA) so I would state from my experience the ground team did pretty good.

Just a side note on the 145, it may be small inside but what a performance, Man to Fraggle on a Dash was 45 mins on the Emb 22 mins and fun as well.

Rob

Your 22 min trip in the 145 was also massively subsidised by the BA 'sweetner'. Best make the most of it while it lasts.:hmm:

Ohhhh Yes thats for sure as soon as a Q400 arrives its back to Liverpool and Euromanx for me!!!!

Seriously I guess I will just have to try FlyBe when they are fully converted, I used to be a regular on BA until last year only reason I defected was because the flight out of Fraggle was never on time and late 3 out of 4 times from Manchester. If that dosnt work theres always Manx2 From Blackpool (anyone know what flying in the LET is like)

Rob

The reason you are getting 'appalling service' at MAN is because the BA ground handling boys and girls are being right royally shafted and aren't exactly bothered whether or not your flight is on time or powered up.
Not all stands have FEP and even if it does, it doesn't necessarily work all the time.
APUs are often turned off as required. Just because the aircraft is on GPU/FEP doesn't mean the APU is b*ggered.
The bags are loaded & offloaded by the same people now as they were for BA.
Finally, it is common practice, if not SOPS to switch batteries off when leaving the aircraft without pilot/engineering present.
:ok: :ok:

The Q400 won't be much slower on the route - the 145 is not above FL 100 for long enough to use it's speed advantage.

Rob, glad you enjoyed your trip.

I wonder if anyone can help me. I was looking at the press release on the CWL website. It states that flybe want to develope at CWL. Obviously this can't be done untill they sort out the crewing issues.

How many a/c have they got on order and of which type. I have noticed that they want to get rid of the BAConnect a/c as soon as possible. Are all their E145 ex Bacon or are some of them FlyBe's? Just been looking at the mayfly and there seems to be a lot of E145 on there.

Thanks for your help

:ok:

Flybe only operated Dash Q400s, BAe 146s and E195s prior to the BACON buyout. All the BACON aircraft will be phased out over the next 3 years (or so the plan goes) and replaced pretty much one for one with Dash Q400s. The E195 is being phased in as the BAe 146 is phased out.

Without digging out all the guff, I think the final fleet makeup is intended to be something like 66 Dash Q400s and 14 E195s. We already have 31 and 3 respectively.

Flybe recently said their development strategy was about "joining the dots." CWL is now a dot.

so technically CWL could fly to destinations all over as seen at Southampoton, Exeter, Belfast City and Norwich? or have i missread this?

Possibly unlikely to ever be a crew base, and hence have it's own route network, but I would consider it reasonable to expect a few more links to existing Flybe bases. It may never amount to more than a handful of destinations though.

Capt H
Thanks, I always enjoy flying be it in a Cessna or somthing a bit bigger but its not often these days I disembark with a big stupid grin on my face. The power to weight ratio on the 145 must be somthing else to give it a performance like that or did I just get fustrated fighter pilots as flight crew that day.:E

Rob

The pilot mentioned earlier was quite unlikely to have been an ex Rasher as very few have come out the other end of their Q400 training yet, and those are the ex Q300 crews that haven't left yet.

The IOM-MAN should be about a minute or two longer on a Q400, the extra seats will make for more lower priced tickets and you'll get far larger overhead bins with more room for yourself too.

Glad you liked the 145 though, nippy beast. The Q400 should be an enjoyable ride too, roomy with seriously too much power for it's own good, quite unlike a Q300..

Thanks for the info, looking forward to the Q400 already, a big thanks to all you guys and girls up front (and in the back) for many happy trips and hope to see a lot more of you in the future.:D

Rob

so your suggesting that it would be a destination from another station via CWL is that correct?

Why don't you think Flybe would operate a base here? The word base has been used in the press release quite often.

cheers :ok:

;) MC ...How can you deduce from 1 reply extoling the virtues of SOP's that it would be hard work flying with me?! Do you believe SOP's are hard work?
you probably have flown with me anyway & If it was hard work I would have expected some feedback from you as is the Company 'ethos' ...It's good to talk about these things don't you think?

Cheers!

Anotherflapoperator -

I nearly made the same mistake as you with regard to Maude Charlee's post, but the ex-Rasher he was referring to was the Captain of the E145 on Frankfurt Cowboy's return journey from CDG to MAN, not the outbound DHC8-400.

4Props,

SOPs are just fine, just so long as you don't go adding your own items to the checklist. Stick to what's printed and you'll go just fine.

;)

You may well have had the misfortune of my company by now too.

Mathers,

Flybe's PR department refer to almost every new destination as a 'base'. Why? Who knows, but it is not correct from the point of view of it being a crewing base; ie, permanently based crew and aircraft. CWL is only a destination at the moment, and that is the way I would expect it to stay.

PeterP,

Are they likely to join CWL with any of their other "dots" when they shortly anounce their winter schedules?

MB

Flybe Manchester farce
 

Now in Frankfurt but flew this morning from Manchester..... what a farce and never again. BA Connect were bad enough but this takes the biscuit!
1. Booked on BA code, so expected to be able to check in in the normal way -NOT. £450 inc. taxes (last minute flex) - CRAP!
2. Expected normal transition through T3 - NOT. Huge rugby scrum, long queues, little Flybe staff and the few that did appear were stressed, rude staff who had clearly lost control. When complained, was told "well we do have 60 flights this morning!" Not an excuse - you'll have that every morning!!!
3. Bused to wrong plane this morning (by that stage, beyond stressful and extremely laughable).
4. No push back vehicle for app. 30 / 40 mins after boarding. It's normally ATC restrictions causing lack of push and start, not equipment (even more laughable).
5. Stress that the cabin crew were great - not their fault.
For Frankfurt in future, Lufthansa, you've got my business! For all other locations (any other operators by air or any other means), you've got my business! Never again with Flybe - sorry.
Never really been a big customer of Flybe but honestly, on this morning's exploits, I'm really surprised they've risen to be as big as they are.... Public, fare paying people, is this the standards you've come to accept in service???!!!
Yours,
A PPL and experienced business traveller who flies on around 200 flights per year!!

Why so many Flybe cancellations on 7th May ?
 

I bet there are some really unhappy customers with all these cancellations (published on ba.com) - I guess it's due to low loads or lack of crews ?
:\

---------------------------------------

Flybe/BA Codeshare cancellations 7 May 2007

Summary
A number of cancellations to BA marketed codeshare services operated by Flybe have been announced by Flybe on 7 May 2007 (May Day Bank Holiday).



More information
Customers due to travel on cancelled services listed below on 7 May 2007 who have been re-accommodated and find the alternative arrangements unsuitable may:
Refund
Be offered a refund of the original BA marketed codeshare flight, plus any parts of the journey not made which are on the same ticket as the original flight
- The refund will be provided to the original form of payment.

Aberdeen to Birmingham BA 4651

Birmingham to Aberdeen BA 4652

Birmingham to Dusseldorf BA 4691

Dusseldorf to Birmingham BA 4692

Birmingham to Dusseldorf BA 4695

Dusseldorf to Birmingham BA 4696

Dusseldorf to Manchester BA 4700

Manchester to Dusseldorf BA 4705

Manchester to Edinburgh BA 4706

Edinburgh to Manchester BA 4707

Manchester to Edinburgh BA 4708

Edinburgh to Manchester BA 4709

Manchester to Glasgow BA 4788

Glasgow to Manchester BA 4789

Manchester to Glasgow BA 4790

Glasgow to Manchester BA 4791

Manchester to Paris BA 4851

Paris to Manchester BA 4852

Isle of Man to Manchester BA 4870

Manchester to Isle of Man BA 4871

Manchester to Southampton BA 4880

Southampton to Manchester BA 4881

Manchester to Southampton BA 4882

Southampton to Manchester BA 4883

Manchester to Southampton BA 4892

Southampton to Manchester BA 4893

Manchester to Belfast BA 6100

Belfast to Manchester BA 6101

Manchester to Belfast BA 6102

Belfast to Manchester BA 6103

Belfast to Manchester BA 6111

Manchester to Belfast BA 6114

Edinburgh to Birmingham BA 6140

Birmingham to Edinburgh BA 6141

Edinburgh to Birmingham BA 6142

Birmingham to Edinburgh BA 6143

Birmingham to Glasgow BA 6171

Glasgow to Birmingham BA 6172

Birmingham to Glasgow BA 6173

Glasgow to Birmingham BA 6174

Edinburgh to Southampton BA 6188

Southampton to Edinburgh BA 6189

Edinburgh to Southampton BA 6190

Southampton to Edinburgh BA 6191

Might be the fact that is a Bank holiday and businessmen are not at work, therefore no need for the flights

Holiday
 

Yes all down to the bank holiday. Not really much point in running the planes empty or near empty.

Eastern also do the same on bank holidays. As they are a proper 'business' airline they only run a skeleton service with many services cancelled.

"1. Booked on BA code, so expected to be able to check in in the normal way -NOT. £450 inc. taxes (last minute flex) - CRAP!"

If you travel on a flybe reference you can check in online. But you were one of the unlucky ones who couldnt manage to check in online because of the merger. Not the first and not the last - that problem lies with BA.

"2. Expected normal transition through T3 - NOT. Huge rugby scrum, long queues, little Flybe staff and the few that did appear were stressed, rude staff who had clearly lost control. When complained, was told "well we do have 60 flights this morning!" Not an excuse - you'll have that every morning!!! "

There are dedicated lanes in place, handbaggage only and fast drop (46) and economy plus (45 but used in busy times as a second desk for HB and FD) the snake system is for passengers checking in bags as there far more who do so. hence the 'snake system'.
As for staff who seemed stressed, its possible but as for them being rude, i have never come across it but if it is the case there is no excuse and i wont defend that.
Every morning there are hundreds of passengers who transit T3 to check in with flybe. A bit of patience doesnt go a miss.
Do you allow plenty of time to check in for your flight? If you do i cant see the waiting being a problem, as you will only have to do this at security, wait to board, wait to take off, wait to land, and wait to taxi to stand.

3. Bused to wrong plane this morning (by that stage, beyond stressful and extremely laughable).

That my friend isnt the handling agents problem, that is a different company who handle it. :=

4. No push back vehicle for app. 30 / 40 mins after boarding. It's normally ATC restrictions causing lack of push and start, not equipment (even more laughable).

That again is a different company, Ringway's problem.

5. Stress that the cabin crew were great - not their fault.

Finally we find a good part. :D

"For Frankfurt in future, Lufthansa, you've got my business! For all other locations (any other operators by air or any other means), you've got my business! Never again with Flybe - sorry.
Never really been a big customer of Flybe but honestly, on this morning's exploits, I'm really surprised they've risen to be as big as they are.... Public, fare paying people, is this the standards you've come to accept in service???!!!"

Flybe is imo, the best low cost carrier around, both for prices and service. Theres no guarantee everything will go smoothly no matter what airline you choose. Even if you pay £700 for your ticket you may still have a delay somewhere in the system.

A PPL and experienced business traveller who flies on around 200 flights per year!!

Whoopee do! That makes you above the rest of people who actually have some patience then i guess! :rolleyes:

At peak times all the check in desks with every airline are jam packed, you should see BA's desks most mornings at 5am! same with AA's desks, BMI's and all the other airlines in T3!

J-Man, thanks for the response. Why were you execting good bits in my post?? I had a bad experience! Would you rave about a new product you'd purchased and it turned out to be utter crap???!!! Remember, good service, equals good word of mouth. Bad service, expects no repeat business! It costs companies 10 times to gain new customers compared to keeping existing customer base. I don't know your business background, but it's a point a lot of companies easily forget.

My whole point about this, is that if this continues as a norm, then they won't be so popular, not just with me but with the majority of business travellers, especially those experiencing Flybe for the first time. In addition, it doesn't matter who the ground handling agent is, or who messed up. At the end of the day the majority of passengers don't care about that, they simply hold the company who they purchased their ticket with accountable. Another point, you'd be wise to aknowledge.

My choice. I tried them, I didn't like them, I won't be using them again. Maybe others would be more tolerant, or more likely, not have much of a choice.

Looking forward to your next response......:hmm:

I'm guessing this codeshare agreement would explain why I've been seeing BA Embraers operating FlyBe AMS-Southampton services?