BRISTOL - 3
 

Continuation of: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...231023&page=14

crackling,

BE also operated to TLS but gave in when easyJet appeared alongside earlier this year.

To be honest, I was surprised that BE didn't look at CWL before. It seems an ideal place for their set-up, especially with baby at CWL a pale shadow of easy's BRS operation.

I agree with you about 'a Bristolian'. When he speaks, listen, because his gen is never duff. I too have a pretty shrewd idea of his real identity, and I would love to know his take on the discussions (or perhaps monologue) that must have occurred between BE and BRS over that airline's future, or lack of, at Lulsgate's Rear End.

Bristol_Trav,

I agree with your interpretation of the new Travel Rewards Scheme. It seems open to anyone to join and remain in, regardless of number of flights taken, and cannot be considered a loyalty programme because the rewards don't appear to be related in any way to airport usage.

Navigator did get into a terrible admin mess a year or two back and completely messed up the records of both my wife and me and, I believe, many other members. I was told at the time by someone fairly senior at the airport that they had seriously considered closing Navigator down then.

What they did was cull the numbers by insisting on a minimum five departures a year to stay in the programme.

Although their blurb suggests the change is in response to Navigator members' requests for a simpler system, I believe the real reason is that Travel Rewards will be a much easier and cost-effective system for the airport to operate, with no membership cards nor statements/vouchers to be sent out every six months. Everything will be done via email.

In truth, Navigator benefits were receding anyway. For instance, my wife and I, being regular leisure travellers, used to like to use the business lounge occasionally via our Navigator vouchers, but this facility was withdrawn earlier this year.

We shall just have to wait and see how it all pans out.

Still cant see anything on the SAS website, could just be a charter maybe?

SAS operates twice weekly for about 7 weeks. Short summer only scheduled series. Something like 28th June-10th August or something like that. Using B737-600s.

Has there been anyword on wether any of the BA Connect routes are to be pciked up by other operators?

WOWBOY

There are no routes to pick up as BA Connect hasn't dropped any routes. Neither have flyBE said they will drop routes.
Remember that the merger between flyBE and BA Connect is yet to happen
Not until the deal is signed, sealed and delivered is it likely that there will be any announcements about the future at BRS.
If I remember correctly, I asked previously, if the routes are profitable for BA Connect, why would flyBE want to drop them?

At the present time BACon operates twenty rotations out of BRS on most weekdays, involving five based ERJ 145s and also aircraft based in Scotland.

Given that the 145s are probably going sooner rather than later (assuming the purchase of BACon by Flybe does goes through) could Flybe logistically operate this pattern of scheduling, and would they want to?

For a start it would mean competing against easy on the high volume EDI and GLA routes where easy currently flies three rotations each weekday on both routes and BACon five on both.

easy have already seen off Flybe on the Belfast (admittedly a different airport), TLS and now BOD. easy also now flies to CDG (once a day) alongside BACon’s five rotations most weekdays.

For Flybe to take on the Orange machine on these routes would mean a reversal of its recent behaviour at BRS.

I suppose it's conceivable that Flybe might still fly all or some of MUC, FRA, DUS, ZRH and MXP.

A couple of other items in the news:

BRS is now wholly owned by the Australian Macquarie Group following the exercise of its option to purchase Ferrovial’s half share recently.

The Stop Bristol Airport Expansion consortium is now flexing its apparently not inconsiderable muscles.

They are in the process of delivering 10,000 leaflets to households in areas they believe might contain a lot of NIMBYs and have also taken out a full two-page advertisement in today’s Bristol Evening Post – not cheap even on a Saturday.

I received one of their leaflets. It is very professionally produced on four thin card pages and additionally contains a perforated business reply card to be sent to North Somerset Council to object to the expansion.

I took advantage of this free postal offer and edited the card to explain why the expansion SHOULD go ahead. Thanks SBAE for the chance to save a few pence.

Clearly this group is highly organised and seemingly well funded. I foresee legal obstacles being put in place every step of BRS’s way through the planning jungle as it attempts to expand its infrastructure.

Nice one MV, thats brilliant, I remember an old Billy Connelly show where he's on about junk mail, he says "reply to it with a dog poo and a note saying, you send me your s**t, so heres some of mine" absolutely brilliant ha ha :} :} :}
As there words of Micheal Caine (kind of) "NIMBY'S THOUSANDS OF EM" Wonder where they all fly from when they go their hols hmmmm my guess is that they dont wish to add polution by driving to LGW! :hmm:

Hi W,

I wouldn’t like anyone to think I am someone who believes airports should be allowed to expand any way they wish.

It’s just that I believe Bristol’s proposals are entirely reasonable and, if anything, a touch modest.

In any negotiations you usually ask for more than you expect to get and the ‘other side’ then feels it has justified itself if it knocks you back a bit. In this case BRS has already pared what it might have reasonably sought but will still face huge challenges from objectors.

Why not ask for more and finish with about what they are actually asking for now? The danger is that this will still be reduced in some way or ways to satisfy the bargaining by compromise principle.

The hypocrisy of some people also infuriates me. Apart from the objectors’ case being full of selective ‘facts’ and at times downright inaccuracies, at least one of the people associated prominently with the group is a regular leisure user of the airport, and outbound tourism is one of the planks of the antis’ argument.

I remember this man campaigning in 1993 in dear old Les Wilson’s days - I know Les wasn’t everyone’s cup of tea but what an enthusiast and publicist for the airport he was and, apart from the obvious grief to his family and friends when he was killed in a motor accident, the local aviation scene also lost something good.

At that time the airport first put forward plans for a new terminal (they had to wait until the airport was partially privatised four years later before it got under way) that was going to public enquiry.

I have some glossy brochures of that period outlining the future plans – indeed the airport’s target in 1993 when it carried one million pax in a year for the first time was two million in 2003. The actual total became 3.8 million in 2003 but few could have predicted the rise of low cost airlines then.

Anyway, all this led to certain groups predicting the end of life as we know it for the residents in the surrounding villages and even further afield.

They were saying that two million passengers a year would mean jumbo jets circling over south Bristol, huge traffic jams and unacceptable noise and air quality levels for local people.

I remember having a heated argument with a group of protestors in a south Bristol shopping precinct at that time.

The current anti-expansionists are using exactly the same tactics: distorted truth, lies and a wish to scare-monger.

I can see that Bristol faces opposition from a group of people who (as individuals) have an unusually potent mix of being relatively affulent, environmentally aware and organised. That probably reflects the socio-demographic make up of the Greater Bristol area and the area directly around the airport. We're certainly the most eco-aware part of the UK - for both good and bad.

There's an unjustified level of stridency and emotion in their campaigning; maybe there aren't enough environmental risks in the West to put the airport's proposals in proportion? (I would have thought much of the chemical business down at Avonmouth was a far greater *risk*, but less visible).

I don't have much experience of dealing with North Somerset council; if it was Bristol City Council, I'd be groaning. BCC is a council that rarely shows leadership or organised thinking. I suspect they must have tired legs from all the knee-jerk reactions.

On a divergence; Bristol - Stockholm has turned up on SAS website, at about £104 return (mid July dates). But it hasn't permeated Star Alliance's website, who claim that the only Bristol in the world is in Virginia, and LH (my *A home airline) can't look at award booking avails yet for the same reason.

Ba Connect Advertising
 

Don't know if any one else in Bristol has noticed that virtually every major Bill Hoarding site in the city has a poster for BA connect flying from Bristol.I know these thing are organised some time in advance,but considering the uncertain times facing Ba's operations it would seem at the same time the Flybe deal was being discussed,the marketing department was budgeting quite a considerable sum on advertising.If the Flybe takeover of Ba connect is completed it would be ironic if the routes disappeared and later CAA data showed a gain in passenger numbers.

virtually every major Bill Hoarding site in the city has a poster for BA connect flying from Bristol.


A large number of new ad's have been erected up here in Edinburgh advertising BRS, MAD & HAM - would appear to be nationwide

I wonder how many trees were cut down in the making of 10,000 ,at least, leaflets regarding stop bristol expansion.

Not to mention how many poor squids were squeezed for the ink :} :ugh:

If the Nimby's have this much time on their hands why don't they plant some trees not waste paper and card that, I would say, at least 98% of is going to be thrown, more than likely, in the black sack rather than being recycled!!! Which in turn is going to fill up more land fill sights so more trees will have to be cut down to make room for our waste. Which in turn will over run the country with rats and more bl**dy nimbys meaning us people with a bl**dy life will have to fly more to get away from the insanity which we live in. Or something like that!

t23

Aer Arran website has Bristol - Manchester as a new route for 2007, is this not already flown by Air Southwest?

So Aer Arann aren't Flying BRistol to Manchester then!

I thought it was starnge for them to go up against WOW.

Aer Arann New Routes
 

It Is A Typo Regarding RE BRS - MAN.

Next Summer Will See RE Service:

BRS - ORK

BRS - GWY

BRS - NTE

Merchant

Sorry - the website does have a box advertising BRS-MAN, when I looked forst time I got a picture of a turkey!

Wel it looks as though from JAN to MAR 06, only three 145 are to be based at BRS according to flybes, nextgenerationairline , site. AAnd then from APR to OCT there are only to be 2 145s to be based a BRS. From the site it also looks asif the 145s are all to stay through 07, and that the Q300 and 146s are to go. Please PM if you cant find site or links.

BA hanger coming down?
 

I was at the back of the airport today and saw what seemed to be the start of the dismantling of the BA hanger.If this is the case then this would seem to indicate that the next phase of apron extension continues apace.Nice to see that despite the reduction of BA/FLYBE ERJs based next year and SBAE sabre rattling, Bristol airport management remain focused on their expansion plans.

Heard on the news this morning that Bristol airport has won an award for the best regional airport in the world. Well done guys:D :D

Hi there terrier.

The accolade was apparently awarded by a panel of judges on behalf of Passenger Terminal World, a publication I must confess to never having heard of although I am sure many aviation professionals have.

Amongst the range of critera to be considered were the food and retailing. Hmm! Not sure about these, especially the food outlets.

The next few weeks could be crucial to the airport’s future expansion. The North Somerset Council is currently supervising the public consultation period for the master plan and on 18 January its relevant committee will decide whether the plan can be used as a guide for subsequent planning applications.

Already one local MP is demanding that the council adopt a noise quota system for day flights as part of any acceptance of the plan.

I remember a decade or more ago the then local authority originally insisted there be no night flights at all as part of the price to be paid for their passing the plans for the new terminal. Common sense eventually prevailed.

Even if the council does accept the master plan (and it would be a surprise to me if they did not try to tinker with some of it), each planning application for the likes of the terminal extension, on-site hotel and multi-storey car parks will still need a lot of pushing through.

18 January will certainly give a clue as to how much pushing will be needed over the next few years.

Hi MV.

The MP of whom you speak I believe is Mr John Penrose from my area, Weston. To be perfectly honest I find the guy a complete prat all he has done since being elected is open up one youth cafe and stick an upside turnip with bloody lights on in the town centre, some say it it looks like a hugh hyperdermic needle which is probably apt for weston. Not sure what his particular grievances are but weston as a whole gets very few disturbances from the airport, with most flights to high to cause a problem on the approach all I can surmise is that he is heavily funded by some local nimby who lives nearer to lulsgate bottom and is worried that the airport is going to throw out more co2 emmissions than their slection of landrovers and old beamers which probably take diesel anyway. Rant over

Anymore news on replacement of BA's routes or indeed new schedule or charters for next year.

T23:ok:

terrier,

I think this is largely down to party politics. Penrose is a Conservative and another local Tory, the higher-profile Liam Fox, has also set himself publicly against the airport expanding, although he does hint he might change his mind a bit if road access was greatly improved.

Because it’s Labour’s idea to expand airports the Tory MPs instinctively seem against it, at least in this part of the world.

Of course those Tories on the local council committee cannot be so cavalier in their public pronouncements as they have a duty to strictly follow the law when it comes to arriving at decisions. I think the North Somerset Council has no overall political majority anyway although the Tories are the largest group. Could be wrong, but I don't live in that area.

Many years ago when old Labour was in power (probably the late 60s) central government put forward a suggestion that Bristol should become a local airport with Cardiff becoming the regional airport for the West and South Wales. That time the local Conservatives went into overdrive against those plans. As I said, it’s politics.

The provisional programme for summer 2007 (sched and charter) is available to download from the BRS website in .pdf form.

On the charter front Olbia doesn't appear, although Chania is back and Innsbruck re-appears after many years’ absence in summer (as opposed to winter). Agadir is also continuing through next summer but one or two destinations seem to have fewer rotations than last summer.

I realise that much can change between now and when the programme commences.

No surprises on the scheduled front but again things could still happen of course.

The airport has taken an interesting approach re the current BA flights.

For CDG, EDI and GLA it lists the easyJet flights only, but adds a note, “Additional flights will be confirmed shortly” adding that the airport website should be visited for up-to-date information when available.

For MUC, FRA, DUS, MXP, ZRH it appends a note, “Flights are expected to operate during summer 2007” adding that the airport website should be visited for up-to-date information when available. It also has the same note for the proposed sched service to Gibraltar.

Doubtless these are ‘holding’ announcements and it may be that the airport itself has no concrete information at this time.

I take it you've all written to North Somerset council to express your support for the airport's plans?

I have, although I will moving away from this area next year. I still have a lot of feelings for the place as I worked there for 3 and a half years. Ive also got friends and family here and it is easy to fly than too drive or take the train for visits

In travel weekly this week it is mentioned that Cadogan holidays is wanting to expand in BRS, MAN and EMA. In the report on Cadogans new look management it says ;

"Cadogan is also hoping to increase its influence in parts of the UK where it has not traditionally focused on, including Bristol, Manchester and East Midlands through sister company GB Airways"

That sounds very promising for new GB routes from BRS in the near future to me, lets hope :ok:

anoraknophobia,

Very sad news was reported today in that a workman employed on demolishing a hangar at BRS (presumably the one you mentioned) fell to his death on Saturday morning. My thoughts are with his loved ones.

Standard Noise,

Yes I certainly have and got SBAE to pay the postage.

BRS MD Andrew Skipp revealed today that it is intended to make BRS the greenest airport in the country, citing a yet to be announced ‘carbon off-setting programme’.

Mr Skipp also alluded to the activities of SBAE when he said, “Despite the misleading and expensive advertising and marketing campaign of the airport’s opponents – who seem to want to stop any progress or development which might benefit the wider region – we have been heartened by the support our proposals have received from staff, politicians and members of the public across the region.”

He must be a regular reader of PPRuNe. :D

On the first point - damn, I wish I'd thought of that!
On the second - I think a few of them read it regularly.

I see Andrew Skipp was on the lunchtime news talking about the expansion plans alongside one of the SBAE liars/fantasists/luddites (delete as appropraite), although rather than send one of their more rabid looking members, they sent a little old granny, prolly to try win over a bit of sympathy against the big nasty old airport. She was noncing on about increases in this, that and the other but missed the word from the CAA that lo cost flights have not actually increased the overall traffic levels in the UK despite claims by the tree huggers. She also, yet again, skipped over the fact that raod pollution would increase if people were forced to drive to Cardiff/Exeter/Birmingham/London etc and the flights would still take place.

Must stop now, blood is reaching boiling point. F*&%ing protestors!

S N

I caught a brief glimpse of the ITV West News this evening and the SBAE had their version of a dolly bird in front of the camera.

More worrying was an interview with a N Somerset councillor who seemed to be saying that despite the protests at today's initial council meeting there was probably a public consensus for limited expansion, though not as much as the airport wants, and this might be reflected in the council's ultimate decision as to how much of the master plan to adopt for future planning guidance.

This has been my fear all along (#8 on 10 Dec in this thread). Because the airport's proposals are relatively modest they will be chopped back to something unrealistic (for the airport) to satisfy the opponents.

Why didn't the airport ask for more than it wants, or expects to get, because that would probably be chopped back to what they are asking for now.

See dear old BRS, the butt of everyone's weather jokes, has remained open all day today whilst nearby CWL and EXT have been closed all day, although the latter may have just re-opened.

Doubtless, some extra work for you and your colleagues because I see a fair number of diversions were glad to make the acquaintance of Lulsgate's Bottom.

Yes indeed MV, I wondered why they didn't ask for more, but I can only imagine that they know what they are doing. However, if the govt has expressed a need for the expansion of regional airports, then the management could always appeal the council decision through the ODPM since they seem to hold final say when all else fails.

I was on nights last night, and we along with Exeter, were the only places open then. In fact one in the eye for Filton, everyone else's choice as Bristol's airport, it was fog bound and the mail flights had to return from whence they came. Should anyone's cards or prezzies be late, complaints should be sent to BAe at Filton for not spending dosh on proper kit, I did all I could but it was to no avail.
I saw on the BBC website, under the story about the travel chaos, that some eejit was complaining about being stuck in Bristol for 3 hours. Mon Dieu! Three whole hours! But the airport site is showing that only 3 inbounds have been canx and only two outbounds (which not surprisingly, correspond to two of the inbounds). The eejit's flight wasn't even one of them. But few of the travelling public realise that it's not the airport's fault, nor our fault at ATC that flights are diverted or canx. It is mainly down to the airlines and their refusal to either pay to equip their aircraft to fly in CATIII (zero visibility) conditions or drag their heels in making sure their crews are capable of flying in such conditions. It makes my blood boil when people blame the airport for this......and I don't even work for the airport anymore!

Well done everybody involved with the diverts/delays on Weds, particually Servisair all departments who from what I saw handled everything brilliantly, diverts coming in for CWL/EXT/LPL and others, also dealing with all the pax coming from those airports to get on their flights, BABY/RE/TOM/FCA/EZY/KL were all amongst the airlines that needed their help, and was very appreciated beleive me. It was just like a summer saturday with the amount of flights in and out.
I fear much the same tomorrow if BRS can manage to stay above the freezing fog, sometimes it definatly pays to be the 2nd highest airport in the country, I imagine there is a lot of greatful Welsh and Devonians about this evening.
Also interestingly the runway will re-open for 2 weeks at night as of thurs, may be many more diverts coming our way in the next 24-48 hrs.
Round of applause for all at BRS :D :D

I was led to believe (correct me if im inaccurate) that the only BA Connect route that was really profitable was their CDG route? Sure, they fly 5 times daily, but since the introduction of our daily service with aircraft 3 times larger, this must have seriously dented their passenger numbers.

Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Zurich (although, perhaps a flight to Basel though?) dont really fit the easy way, but with a newly opened base at Milan Malpensa, and previous experience of Munich from Stansted, I wouldnt be surprised to see that you'd be sat on an orange A319 if you need to get to these cities.

Personally, I think Flybe would be dumb to take us on at Bristol, and would be better off doing some more services from Exeter (like introduce some more International services) or as rumoured, take on BMIBaby at Cardiff (You've got more chance of succeeding here Flybe)

Shame the same couldn't have been said of Tuesday evening before the runway closed when Servis-scare turned diversions away from Briss cos they couldn't be a**ed.

I thought ATC decided when the runway closed? Surely the decision wouldnt be Servisair's?
Weren't they given a short extension for some flights anyway? Then one or 2 others were running quite late?

Judging by the fact they handled nearly all of CWL's flights, plus any more and their own and very efficiently from what i hear! Well Done Servisair!! :D

It is down to the Airport Authority although we have a little operational leeway, but I wasn't talking about the runway closure itself, that's nowt to do with Servis-scare.
And the extension on Tuesday was granted by the Airport Authority as a favour to the airline concerned for other reasons and it was only for one flight outbound. I haven't mentioned Wednesday cos I wasn't at work. Perhaps they redeemed themselves on Weds, but I'm sure it was before 2300, doubtful it would have been later.

I think the BRS planning application is sensible.

What happens these days is you apply to the local planning authority, there is a quick and dirty local protest and permission is denied. You then take your regionally important application to Prescott and his office grants it and the local authority have to sit and whistle.

This system operates on the implict understanding that you only ask for what you actually need and don't take the p155.

Hence BRS applying for a moderate and phased extension. It doesn't want to be the next Manchester and is focussed on being a regional airport. Busy, profitable but a regional.

I think they are clever.

Cheers

WWW

WWW

I accept everything you say from a factual point of view but the airport is facing a particularly well-organised group and the psyche of the wider local populace has to be taken into account.

I cannot put it better than Bristol_Traveller, an excerpt from whose recent post I reprise above.

If John Prescott overturned any council decision, whether it be non or partial acceptance of the master plan as a basis for future planning applications or individual planning applications themselves, the antis would paint it as Big Brother central government over-ruling the democratically elected local representatives.

They would then command support from a lot of ordinary local people, not themselves anti expansion per se, but furious that decisions were being taken out of local hands.

Having lived in this area for over sixty years I've seen it before, in connection with roads, supermarkets and other matters. We can be a funny lot down here.

At the end of the day the plans might be pushed through, but only perhaps after appeals or even a public enquiry or high court challenges.

This would take a lot of time, something the airport hasn't got a great deal of if it wants to adhere to its published timetable, and if the Conservatives were to win the next general election they may well go right back to the drawing boards in their plans for the future of civil aviation.

It happens already day in day out. You take your planning appeal to the regional authority under the charge of J Prescott and in over 80% of cases the local planning refusal is overturned.

The planning officers and local councillers have been spitting blood about it for the last two years. A Terminal 5 style £14m 9 yr long enquiry is now never to be repeated. The White Paper has been issued, in it Bristol will get its expansion, the current LOCAL planning "debate" will be overuled if the decision goes the wrong way and all this will happen within two years.

Local planning control on large public infrastructure projects is dead.

But they still allow 24 months of debate, a campaign group to be formed and local councillors to wring their hands about it all and appear concerned and important. Then the permission is agreed on appeal.

That is what happens now.

Cheers

WWW

Standard Noise: "Servis-scare couldn't be a***ed" or words to that effect. I would suggest that you get your facts straight before you make such disparaging and badly thought-out remarks. Firstly, Servisair didn't turn away any diversions on the night to which you refer. It's not our place to turn away diversions, we have to refer to the airport COM and/or the ASU who have the authority to make such decisions. Maybe they turned them away? Mind you, I was on shift that night and I never heard about any requests for diversions. Why don't you ask to spend a day with Servisair to see what it's like for them? You might learn something. WWW Thanks for your remarks: it's been an interesting couple of days to say the least. We had another ten or so diversions overnight Wednesday / Thursday morning from CWL, including three WW, four RE, TOM, KLM and Easy Switzerland (from LGW I think). Roll on Friday!:8

It was a COM who told me Servis-scare turned the flight away. I can only tell you what I was told. Mind you, if Servis-scare had their way, the Baby AMS flight would not have got down cos they refused it as well, I was the one who told the COM it would be landing. Maybe you should check your facts my friend.