Flybe close to firming Q400 options!
 

www.metronews.ca/reuters_business.asp?id=51847

Good news for the regions of the UK if this is true.

Having flown on the Q400, it is an extremely capable and comfortable short-haul aircraft which dispells many of the myths of flying on turboprops.

Hope this confirmation of options comes to fruition and well done Flybe for correctly daring to choose the Q400 over the far less cost-effective RJ's.

737/A319?
 

Good news indeed, but what does this mean for plans to replace 146-300s with a larger type? Are these still going ahead, or will it be an all-DH8-400 fleet?

....or what about some Avro's, there are a few sitting around (ironically at EXT) at the moment.

OK, it's another 146, but without some of it's issues (ie, RVSM compliant AFAIK) and commonality must be a plus.

And they are a bit newer aswell.

EXT is a storage airport too, and even though i'm sure JEA enginerring does some upkeep on the stored RJ's / 146's i don't think they're anything at all to do with flybe.

The company has 6 RJ100's on lease to replace our 146-200 series. They are ex-turkish airlines i believe and the first 2 should be in SOU by early summer season.

As for 737 / A319 ......... still no word.

BPM

The Avro RJs parked at Exeter are RJ70s & RJ85s. Too small to replace a 146-300. Besides, some of them seem to be on the move. Euromanx & the Bahrein Defence Force are helping to diminish the store.

Flybe will be phasing out the 146-200s this year and replace them with RJs, and the 146-300s will be phased out in about 3 years time, and also replaced with RJs.

The Q400 will grow to about 40 aircraft and thus continue to be the dominant type on the books.

As for larger types, they are wet leasing three 737s from Astraeus in March to test the water on some longer routes to the Med. No future decisions have been made about the permanancy of these routes, or the choice of aircraft should these routes prove worthwhile.

good news for the workers up the road from me who make the Q400 - with the CRJ line under pressure from the Jungle Jets the turboprop line seems to be the best part of the order book right now.

i hate flying on the dash 8, especially the long Q400. Hate the reverse thrust in mid-air coming into land, hate the feeling of nose-diving towards the runway, tail high and nose down... very strange sensation especially in high crosswinds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as for the noise, its seems louder than a dash 8-300. An hour is the most i'd like to be on one. And the toilet... i couldnt even pee into the bowl because it was so difficult and small

Can someone clarify the safety record of the dash 8. I'd much rather fly a jet.



:uhoh:

nakata77

how do you compare the dash 8qs to other props you've been on, or have you only been on dh8? Especially since Bombardier are touting the cabin noise reduction thingy, and that PW150 is less noisy! I've only been on one dash but that was a -100 which isn't quite the same thing.

Asking for the Dash's safety record seems like you're looking for excuses to dislike the aircraft. flightsafe.co.uk seems to have the data if you feel strongly enough to pay for it.

Nakata77 - reverse thrust on a prop????? that'd be interesting to see!..........Not sure what you mean by this?

I find the Q400 absolutely fine...sure i'd prefer a jet but i'll happily get on a prop, especially if it means I only have to drive to my local airport, rather than half way across the country to a catchment area that can support jet traffic to the destination I want to go to!

Afterall, that is the point of the Q400 and plenty of people are beginning to appreciate that.

Um, yes. We don't use max reverse in-flight! That would only be used if absolutely necessary on landing!
That 'noise' you hear on finals is the condition levers being put up to max - although some operators land with the props at 850rpm. And the high-angle would be the use of Flap 35. Having flown it for well over a year now, I've actually yet to hear of pax complaining of the nose-down sensation!

It is much quiter than the 300, and I'd rather be on the 400 anyday.

And as for peeing in the bowl - if you have that much trouble aiming, I wouldn't like to share your bathroom!

Nakata77 - you ask for the safety record of the Dash8 - I wonder what you think that will tell you?

The fact that one type may have been involved in more accidents that another does not imply there is a safety issue with it since accidents can be caused by many things. If you don't like turboprops then that is your view you then have to decide if you can fly an alternative routing with a jet. However, you should be aware that turboprops are cheaper to operate than jets of a similar size - due to lower fuel burn, lower weights and therefore lower landing and navigation fees, lower crew costs etc etc - so just because you don't like turboprops is not a good reason for an airline to put on a jet.

I agree with all the comments made.

It seems that the 'reverse thrust' i felt in approach is the change in angle of attack of the prop blades. Just hate the sensation, really makes me feel like the plane is gonna suddenly loose control. You can really feel the slowing motion in mid-air. A sensation i've never felt on any other turboprop or jet. coupled with the nose -down attitude it made me disorientated.

It seems like i just need to get used to the different sensation. Doesn't anybody else feel it a bit weird compared to other aircraft?

I have flown Twin otters, Islanders, Shorts before and never noticed it.

Thanks though for all the explanations, really helped.

I do think the rapid slowing down on approach is so the Q400 is one of few TP's that can keep up with modern jet traffic into airports.Many a time have I heard 146's into BHD complaining about being stuck behind ATP's when they were operating!!:E
As for the Q400 I've flown on it few times,I do find it uncomfortable from the actual seat side of things,otherwise noise is minaml even beside the props when i compare to previous types I've been on.Thankfully tho one doesn't have to spend to much time in them.
Finally on the business economics they have been a superb purchase for FlyBE and sad as it may sound I do wish after doing my fATPL to be flying one of them from BHD!!:D


Regards:ok:

Nakata77 - er82 is correct. The DHC8-400 has 3 propellor rpm settings - 1020rpm for take off, 900rpm for climb, and 850rpm for cruise. The climb setting of 900rpm is bypassed for various reasons.

With regard to your point about the unease you feel due to the increase in rpm from 850 to 1020 on the approach, you have my sympathy. The reason this is done is in case the aircraft has to carry out a missed approach. During such a manoeuvre, the aircraft may need maximum power in a worst case scenario, and this is achieved at 1020rpm. Some DHC8-400 operators around the world have a modification to the Go Around button, so that when pressed during a missed approach, the props immediately increase from 850 to 1020. This modification allows them to carry out normal approach and landings with the props at a more comfortable 850rpm. Unfortunately, our powers that be must have decided that this optional extra was not required, so 1020rpm must be selected manually on every approach, just in case of a go around.

With regard to the nose-diving sensation, again you have my sympathy. When we first got the 400s, the normal landing flap setting was 15 degrees, and with a landing speed equal to 1.3 x stall speed. This meant that landing in icing conditions (an extra 15-20 kts) at GCI (the shortest runway we use) put the fear of god into some. It was therefore decided that on runways of less than 1800m, a flap setting of 35 degrees would be the mandatory setting, which reduced the landing speed a little bit. However, it was also realised that the landing speed should actually be 1.23 x stall speed, and as this slowed the touchdown by up to 12 kts in some circumstances, the reduction in speed offered by flap 35 over 15 became less important, but the 1800m runway rule has somehow stayed in place.

However, some of our pilots choose to land at all our destinations with the flaps set to 35, and when the flaps are moved from 15 to 35, this causes the marked nose down pitch that you find so uncomfortable. Personally, I found flap 35 landings as uncomfortable as you do, so chose to land in this configuration only when I had to.

Thanks very much flybe.com. I now feel kind of at ease, although the fact that you also feel uncomfortable at 35 degrees flap isnt a great comfort! I have to fly flybe again in a coulpe of weeks an hoping for the 146. What is the actual stall angle in a Q400?

I'm sure like the pilots flying them, I will get used to the sensation. Thanks again.

Bombardier/flyBE have today confirmed that the airline has ordered 20 Q400's in a 78 seat configuration. The order will take the airlines Q400 fleet up to 41 aircraft when all aircraft have been delivered.

The deal is said to be worth 485million USD.

Deliveries will be over a four year period.

Glad to see that with the order confirmed we're back on subject.

So, anyone know where these extra 20 Q400s are going to be based?

There is supposed to be some based at Liverpool.

flybe.com
Last time I looked Max is 1020 RPM not 1050 RPM unless BHX have a souped up version of the Q400:D

The figures I have are:
Max 1020
Over Seed Gov 1060
and FADEC overspeed circuitry would control the RPM to 1120

dv8 - Thanks for pointing out my error, a slight confusion with the 200/300 settings, and I haven't flown the DHC8 for a while so it had slipped my mind. Previous post edited.:ok:

Brabazon - Whilst I admit my response above was a little off topic, it was offered to give a little insight to an enquiring passenger. You know the sort, they live on the other side of the flightdeck door and pay our wages!!

From today's Scotsman. Looks like Flybe are going to enjoy an increased presence in Aberdeen and Scotland.


Airline's new fleet expands Scottish routes

ALASTAIR DALTON TRANSPORT CORRESPONDENT


NEW routes across Britain and to Scandinavia were signalled by Flybe yesterday as it used its largest-ever new planes order to underline its claim to be Scotland’s fastest growing airline.

Flybe said it was considering new Norwegian or Swedish links from Scotland, and a similar range of UK routes from Inverness to those that will be launched from Aberdeen.

Flights to Oslo, Bergen or Stockholm from Aberdeen, and possibly Edinburgh and Glasgow, could follow the £250 million order for 20 Bombardier Q400-78s.

Services will be launched between Aberdeen and Birmingham, Exeter and Southampton, as The Scotsman reported in November. Belfast flights have already been confirmed from March. Mike Rutter, Flybe’s marketing director, said it now planned to operate the same services from Inverness too.

He said a Boeing 737s order would follow, so larger planes could operate on the Edinburgh and Glasgow to Southampton and Birmingham routes.

Bombardier Sells 20 More Q400 Airliners to FlyBE: U.K. Carrier Cites Low Operating Costs, High Passenger Appeal
Thursday January 27, 9:33 am ET


TORONTO, ONTARIO--(CCNMatthews - Jan. 27, 2005) - Bombardier Aerospace announced today that U.K.-based FlyBE, one of Europe's leading low cost airlines, has placed a firm order for 20 additional Bombardier Q400 high-speed turboprop airliners. Delivery of the 20 aircraft will increase the FlyBE Q400 fleet to 41 aircraft.
The transaction announced today is valued at approximately $485 million U.S. and represents the conversion of FlyBE's 20 options to firm orders.

"The versatility of the Bombardier Q400 makes it a great aircraft for FlyBE," commented FlyBE Managing Director, Jim French. "Quiet, jet-like performance and great engineering will help us continue to deliver on-time flights and stay the most punctual airline on many of the routes we fly. It is also very economical to run and will be a key strategic weapon for FlyBE, in what is a very competitive marketplace."

"Airlines worldwide are facing tremendous economic pressures. The Bombardier Q400 changes the rules of the game. With 16 Q400 aircraft already delivering great value in the FlyBE fleet, their investment is testament to the Q400's spectacularly low operating costs, jet speed, and superior cabin comfort," said Steven Ridolfi, President, Bombardier Regional Aircraft. "The Q400 represents the way for the industry to grow the business and the bottom line at the same time. It truly delivers turboProfits."

FlyBE, based at Exeter in southwest England, serves 41 destinations in the U.K and Europe.

Today's announcement increases firm orders for the Bombardier Q400 to 141 aircraft. As of December 31, 2004, 88 had been delivered to 10 operators in North America, Europe and the Asia/Pacific region.

Flybe. seem to have identified markets that would once, never have been viable. I will be surprised if the EXT-LBA lasts, especially with the competition to the West Country from WOW.

In terms of new routes from Aberdeen and Inverness I am also unsure. How much market can there be for ABZ-EXT or INV-SOU??? I would also be surprised if an ABZ-ARN route could be successful.

I think there is scope for Aberdeen to Newcastle, Norwich, Birmingham, Stavanger and maybe Southampton at a push. Inverness however has muc less potential. Eastern already operate to BHX, and with easyJet coming in on the Belfast(unbeliveably!) is there really a market for 200+ seats Belfast-Inverness and vice versa daily????

I assumed they would be basing a few of the Q400s at Norwich and Southend. What about more international routes out of Jersey? Paris, Amsterdam etc.

Regards

Mike

the news is now confirmed on the flybe website...

http://www2.flybe.com/news/0501/27.htm

to quote one of the flybe management i met recently...
"the dash 8 sips fuel and goes like s*** thats why we like it"

This confirmation of the options might lead to a couple being based at NWI. Press announcements referred to BE's intention to make it a 'base' but the timetables suggest that initially all aircraft will be based elsewhere and fly in-and-out. Anyone know when aircraft will be based at NWI - I imagine this will lead to a ramping up of flight frequencies.

*j*

To quote the FlyBE press release
What's the significance of the "-78"?

To quote the FlyBE press release

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acquisition of 20 Q400-78 aircraft confirmed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What's the significance of the "-78"?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

78 is the number of seats a DHC8Q-400 has

Fried Chicken

spagiola,

As Fried_Chicken says, the 78 bit i think relates to the seat config. The original 4 DH8D's that were delivered to BE arrived in a 74 seat config and were modified to 78. All subsequent deliveries have and now will be 78.
This is excellent news for both BE and Bombardier, and testament to the turnaround that the company and has acheived in a fairly small period of time.
However, whilst there can be no disputing the economics and speed of the 400, I for one am still a little concerned by the reliability and build quality of the aircraft. I understand that BE (like most carriers who have chosen this airframe) have had numerous problems with them, understandable given new type/pilots/engineers etc, but i hope that the next order of airframes will not require quite so much downtime as has appeared to have cursed the first 16/17.
That aside, its a positive step that will see BE be able to start to genuinely compete the larger locos, whilst enhancing their already considerable regional network.

0[]

circlesquare,

Most of the initial teething problems have been sorted and the Q400 is now very reliable.

Cheers :ok:

Call me a sceptic if you wish but I cannot believe that the Flybe plan has any chance of working. One o fthe things that is important in every sort of business today is focus. Easy has it. Ryanair has it. Their focus is a very important part of their success.

But what focus does Flybe have? Is it a very short haul specialist operating primarily short domestic routes and routes to the near continent? If so the Q400 is probably a good aeroplane. having said that I am suspicious as to why such an airline should have committed itself to more than 25% of all Q400's ordered. What is so wrong with the aeroplane that so few companies have ordered it?

But that is not only what they are doing. They are trying to mix that business in with jet operations from several cities to much more distant destinations. That destroys any focus that they have. So one management team will have to be trying to run two separate businesses. That will never work.

Then you have what seems to be an entirely reckless expansion programme. They regularly run advertisements which show that more than half their routes will be new this year. Not only do they have to try and make money out of those but they have to write off their useless investment in all the routes that they are giving up. How many millions did they invest and waste at LCY?

To me it is an airline that is going nowhere.

chipsbrand.................... you're a sceptic.


I would suggest that the reason that Flybe have 25% of all Q400's ordered is that they are part of an elite group of airlines that haven't been seduced by the CRJ and EMB products with poorer operating economics. It was a brave decision and deserves success for putting bottom line ahead of the sexy public image of a jet. You only have to look at the problems besetting airlines operating the regional jets. Perhaps the question should be 'How did so many get it wrong?'

The fact that they very quickly adjust schedules and routes would seem to contradict the view that they are reckless with their planning. On the contrary, it suggests that they keep a very close eye on the business and act quickly to safeguard it.

Apart from having 2 x Fleet Managers I cannot see that operating jets and turboprops in a company should be that difficult. It isn't uncommon to have a mixed fleet.

I don't work for Flybe but I wish them every success.

chipsbrand,

I've gotta join the 'sceptic' bandwagon!
To me the plan is working. The fact that FlyBE are still around when 3 and a bit years ago it seemed likely that the company would fold is part proof enough for me. They have bounced back from the CRJ fiasco, a complete rebrand...twice I know... to start competing on other locos patches... something I never expected them to do. Combined with the posting last year of a turnaround from significant losses (for a company of its size) to profit over this time (and before I get shot down here I am aware of the AF/LHR slot issue as raised on another thread), as well as the introduction of what looks like ending up being a 40 odd fleet of Q400's, are not the signs of a company without focus.
LCY was an excellent market in the heady days of business class regional service, and the money the FlyBE (JY at the time) ploughed into it probably offset numerous losses that they were encountering across the rest of the network. Indeed i remember travelling myself on their EDI-LCY to find the 146 full with more business than economy.. It's just that LCY is not a low cost model airport to operate into.
I've gotta agree with surely not that the rapid adjustment of schedules to maximise revenue is a clear indication of how much they are keeping a close eye on the market and the yields they produce.
Yes they have clearly made mistakes in the past, but appear to be learning from them and not repeating... time will tell.

0[]

Well done Flybe ! - I think the plane order is a tribute to the success of Flybe management from turning around a close to failing airline in the form of British European to a successful, profitable (?), low cost regional airline.

Especially given the number of critics that said they would have their lights put out by Easyjet & Ryanair.

The Q400 aircraft gives Flybe the opportunity to operate thin routes that 737's couldn't. The passengers obviously have no objections to flying on the aircraft either given the large numbers now using them.

They obviously plan to roll out many more new routes to utilise these new aircraft and with possible 737's in the pipeline the future has to be looking reasonably positive for all staff.

I have watched Flybe's transformation over the past couple of years and have been very impressed with the progress they have made.

They are bringing the lo-fare experience to a lot of smaller regional airports which otherwise would be denied the opportunity, mainly because they could never provide the pax needed to fill an aircraft of 737 size at a frequency to make such routes work.

Another constant source of amazement for me is their rapidly evolving domestic network covering routes that the sceptic would never imagine could possibly work. Who would have thought Exeter - Newcastle would work but seemingly it carries loads of 80% plus.

On a personal note, I used Flybe for the first time last year and was very impressed. I have already booked more flights in May.
It all adds to the pax numbers.

Good point - let's not forget the 737 based low-cost model is not the only one. Other LCCs with bigger jets would find it tough to have a go at NWI, for instance (which is why this is one of the last UK airports to get an LCC).

Good luck BE... I admit I am cautious about an expansion into bigger aircraft ops, but then the domestic network should now be a strong footing to fall back on.

*j*

The Q400 is starting to pick up nicely orderwise, QF have recently ordered a bunch as have Japan Air Commuter and ANA.

Now if only Bombardier would put their twin hobbies of internecine fighting and moving jobs from Ontario to Quebec down long enough to launch the C-Series and get started on a CRJ rethink...

Well glad to see more coming,absolute pain in the arse at first with technical issues but seems as time has gone by and FlyBE getting to grips with them they have become more and more reliable.
Although FlyBE must have plans if they are still recieving Q400's from hte previous order and another 20 ordered!! Be interesting to see where/what routes they fly.


Regards:D

Will also be interesting to see how they crew the a/c! What with the way current staff are being treated, and hence the high resignation rate, they'll have trouble keeping experienced crews on the Dash.....