Doncaster/Finningley
 

I haven't seen many posts on here recently about DSA; any rumours about actual opening date and additional new services? I am aware of the new Thomsonfly services, based Britannia B757 and 2 x TCX w-flights?. What about other charters/locos?

I think opening day is set for the 13 or 14th March 2005.
Rumour, (and only rumour control) has it that they have been in intensive talks with Cathay about moving their freight operation from Manchester, and also have been talking to other large freight operators.
Don't know anything about scheduled services though.

Some time ago, I mentioned a work colleague had been told by the local development agency that Dragonair was opening some kind of operation at Finningley.

The only reply I saw was that KA were merely opening a receiving depot, I didnt bother to answer that at the time. However KA doesn't have a receiving depot anywhere else including at Manchester, so that was unlikely.

Maybe though they are trying to attract the Cargo operators ffrom Manchester to Finningley, if I was Manchester this would have been my fear more than pax flights.

So it could be CX or KA or maybe even both.

Robin Hood Airport will open on the 16th March 2005.

Currently, the TUI group comprising Britannia Airways and the low cost Thomsonfly.com will have a total of 5 based aircraft between them.

THe airport is, I beleive in discussions with a number of airlines and it's my guess that there will be more scheduled services announced later this year, the TUI announcement was very early, usually airlines announce around 2-3 months in advance, so end of the year, early next seems logical to me.

Dragonair have a receiving depot at Doncaster. Contrary to the earlier post, they have such facilities all over the county, otherwise you would end up with thousands of little ford transit vans descending on manchester airport and Stansted every day to feed the flights. Freight is collected at various locations throughout the UK and trunked into the aircraft departure airport. This is not uncommon, contrary to our friends earlier comment.

Early indications for sales from the airport are very positive and this will line the aiport up well for the future. It is not going to happen overnight, and my guess, for what it;s worth would be that 2006 will see a major step change from 2005, with 2005 being the year the airport opens, gets itself settled down and bedded in for growth.

DSA is an exciting opportunity for aviation in this country, and a rare opportunity at that, lets hope all the cynics out there welcome it and we can, for at least once on this site, be spared the incessent bashing that good news usually receives.

I worded my comments about receiving depots badly.

Being in the Cargo side myself I am well aware of the logistics of moving freight to the airport of departure from nationwide receiving points.

What I should have said is that Dragonair do not operate their own receiving shed's at Manchester or Stansted but use a handling agents, as do most airlines. They do not have their own transit shed.

If what my colleague was told and they were opening something themselves, this would be a departure from their current policy and an indication of future intentions maybe.

There has been a lot of talk about the so-called long runway at Finningley.However, I am not sure that 2791metres is long enough for unrestricted 747 cargo flights to Hong Kong for example. Does anyone know if what I am sying is correct?

wawkrk - You are right. A fully loaded 747 could not depart on an ultra long haul route from that length of runway.

The 747F wouldn't necessarilly be fully loaded on departure. CX and KA stop in mainland Europe i.e. AMS, BRU and PAR so maybe 60 tonne of freight on departure from the UK.

There's room to put in an extra 1000ft if required within the current airfield boundary.10,000ft would be enough as they operate from MAN with that length of runway.With all the other work going on at DSA at the moment I guess they think the runway is long enough for Peels requirements at the moment.

OK, a few points, Dragonair are indeed using a handling agent at DSA. It is the transit shed operator (which is standard practice) the agent is CHC - a new transit shed operator in the UK.

The runway at DSA is 2891 metres, not 2741 as previously states. This puts DSA on a par with EMA.

Brgds

does anyone know why they are digging along side of the whole runway at DSA??

New lighting or maybe improved drainage? They also have 2 trenches dug accross the runway one on the north end concrete and one halfway down. New approach lighting is going in at the north end too. Does anyone know if it will have ILS on both ends? Also how many stands will there be?

I believe there will be about 6 stands at the terminal(734 size) and STACKS of remote space. One slight downer on the op is that the locals think that the airport will use 20 to land on and 02 to depart on.(subject to wind) A big operational restriction if the traffic offered is more than one at a time.:D

why are they digging the runway up??,i know both thresholds need work doing to them but the rest is fine,it doesn't make any sense.if i remember rightly i think they was planning on makin the runway to 10,000ft ,anyone got any idea's coz you can't find any info anywhere on the net,peel don't seem to want to give imformation out for some reason.

Flypast at Finningley
 

I watched a VC10 and a Meteor (G-LOSM I think) do a number of flypasts around lunchtime on September 15th. I know this was BoB day, but I struggled to find any other more specific connection. I think Meteors were based there at one time, but VC-10s? Was it a squadron thing (saying goodbye to Finningley one last time?). Who was there to see it?

It was interesting to see the two aircraft fly what looked like a typical down-wind leg prior to an overflight of the runway, as they passed right over my house. It'll be nice to see some traffic again.

Ian

Flypast
According to a thread on the Mil forum, a flypast at a funeral for one of the crewmembers of the recent Canberra accident

yeah i think one of the airman lived in doncaster and served at RAF Finningley

everyone iswelcome to join http://groups.yahoo.com/group/donnyairport/

Oh dear - yes that does all fit together now.

I was very sorry to hear about the accident and had noted that Paul was a local.

RIP

Hi all,
To answer some of the points above.

The trench is for new AGL lighting, as the old RAF was not to commercial standard, and needed replacing anyway.
Approach lighting is been added at both ends of the runway, and the runway will be painted with commercial runway markings, thresholds, TDZ's etc etc. Threshold at 02 end will be displaced due to rising ground to the west of the field (as I understand?!)

Trenches accross the runway are to provide services around the airfield such as water, electicity, and drainage.

ILS will operate on runway 20 only initially, but this will change as the operational needs of the airport become more apparant following the airport opening, all future proofs are included for this expansion(!) Runway 20 is preferred landing runway (and will be used even with a slight tailwind), with 02 the preferred departure runway. This is noise related.

The airport will have 8 terminal contact stands 4 x 767 and 4 x 737 (4 x code D, 4 x code C). 747's can park accross 2 stands.

At least 3 stands will be served by gate bridges (not air bridges) but for those who have visited liverpool, the gate bridges which drop you at the head of stand will be used. Again, if an airbridge requirment is realised, they can be added as necessary.

Remote parking is in abundance, and it is likely any frieghter aircraft will park remote to the terminal, as the transit shed will be in what was originally hangar 1.

Information is scarce at the moment in fairness, however a new website will be launched by the end of the year in preparation for the airport opening in March 05.

Any more for any more? Hope the above is of some use, and the above is correct, I can assure you I know!

Brgds

GJK22

thank you gareth for the info ;) when you say "Threshold at 02 end will be displaced due to rising ground to the west of the field (as I understand?!)
displaced in which way,not using it??

Runway useage
 

The runway use should come out at around 70% Rwy20 and 30% 02. Can't see how 02 would be used primarily for departures whilst 20 would be used for landing. In the busier periods departing traffic would be launching directly into opposing landing traffic!. Also this tail wind departure preference (02) would require longer take off run, simplistically more power required, with corresponding lower altitudes on climb, and hence more noise, which doesnt make a lot of sense.

It makes perfect sense. To the north of the field there are a dozen houses if that for around 6-7 miles, allowing any aircraft to climb suffieciently to reduce the noise impact. To the south is the town of Bawtry ... hence the preference for 02 departures. It is quite common for an airport to use a runway even with a small tailwind, even LCY use approached over the city with a tailwind below around 5 knots!

Of course, if it is busy both go the same way ... i would have thought was to to be taken as read ....

The threshold displacement. This means, that rather than the threshold (the piano keys if you like) being at the end of the runway as you would expect, they will be moved further along the runway ... which is when you get the arrows at the start, then the piano keys etc. This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway, so that as the aircraft come over the high ground they are higher and hence the ground is no longer considered to be an obstacle ... hope this makes sense.

Any more for any more?

G22 I'm quite familiar with the area, the outlaws are from there! Any way with the runway useage going to be 70/30 westerly/easterly to emphasise to the community so early on there will be a bias towards easterly departures is a poor move. They will take that as read, and will not understand the operational implications which will in due course alter that. Any likely change to undo this bias would be vehemently contested, make sure that bias isnt in any planning agreement or future development will come at a heavy price!. You are quite right regarding take off with tail wind component, however that is usually only a few knots, again something the public will not understand, and a few knots/wet runway may make all the difference for a departure even with the length of runway available.

A far better option will be an alter course off 20 at about 500ft by 20 degrees or so to take aircraft between Bawtry and Tickhill. It wont be perfect but operationally in the long term it will be preferable. By having this bias it also means south bound operators are potentially adding a significant track mileage to the departure route. That will be an interesting pitch to lo-cost airlines for example!

Any more for any more? Hope the above is of some use, and the above is correct, I can assure you I know! :ok:

cheers for clearing the threshold displacement thing up :) but does it mean the runway will in fact be shortened? and will dsa have its own radar head?

The runway is in effect shorter for landings than takeoffs. landing you can not use the part before the piano keys, however for take off you can frequently start the take off roll on the section, (before the piano keys), not used for landing on. It does depend on the individual runway and its particular restrictions. Dunno about the radar feed though.

Ha ha, it is a preferred operational requirmenet, but nothing is stipulated that that is how it will be (as far as I am aware). Ultimately it will be wind dependant but the published op procedures state what I said above.

Minor point but the runway is north / south not east / west (sorry, just like to be precise from time to time). The departure routes do turn either east west depending to avoid bawtry anyway ... this has already been thought of!

I'm not operationally minded, and it's not my forte, but i'm into all that ... and I do have an idead of the thought processes involved and seen all the bits and pieces!

Going back to the displacement issue, the runway is not shorter, and it is quite common for runways to have a displaced threshold, runway 09 at LPL is displaced by around 150' as is 24R and 24L at MAN.

GJK

'Minor point but the runway is north / south not east / west (sorry, just like to be precise from time to time)'. Ha ha, well, with respect 02/20 is not north-south to be precise either!, is it?. Any way would be interested to know where the 'published' procedures are, perhaps as they are 'published' you would be kind enough to advise where?, I'd be interested to see them.

From your good self, 'the runway is not shorter'. Also from yourself, 'This does not effect take off as you start the take off roll at the start of the concrete, but if means that the landing zone is moved down the runway'. (Note you may not land on the runway in front of the piano keys, in normal circumstances). Therefore with a displaced landing threshold as you describe above, the runway is shorter for landing than it is for take off, correct?. Example for lez and to illustrate the above, taking off and landing in the same direction, same piece of tarmac:
total runway length 2000m
displaced landing threshold by 500m
landing runway available 1500m
take off runway available 2000m
do you concur gareth?

You get out of bed the wrong side?
No the runway is not north / south, but it is more north south than east west, but if you want to be funny about it, it's north north east / south south west. O, and for the sake of clarity, I was being flippant in my comment regarding being precise ... hence the from time to time comment (which by nature is not precise .... ) .........

I had taken the earlier comment of the runway being shorter to read that the section prior to the displacement was not to be used, which is not the case, but the LDA is of course less than the ASDA. Otherwise, why displace the threshold?

This is fun isn't it, not argued with any one on here before .... o joy, a little light in an otherwise boring day (although ABBA is on later ..... )

No I didn't, perhaps both you and I should use a few ;) :{ :uhoh: :E :ok: 's in our postings to assist!. I was hoping to clarify to lez in laymans (no ofence intended lez), terms what the implications of runway length/displacement might mean, in answer to his 'does it mean the runway will in fact be shortened?' question.

I would genuinely be interested in knowing where the published procedures you mention are, and of course, far more importantly, the blonde or the brunette one?:E

The airfield is not licensed and will not be until next year, so until then the procedures remain un published, but they are published in the sense that that is what is going into the airport manual!

Always happy to use pictures (I can't read you see) not quite mastered the art of those yet though!

Sorry, keep an eye on the UK AIP and they will appear then at the appropriate time!

GJK22

For an airport in class G airspace, like DSA will be, there can be no 'published procedures' for departures surely? All the low level military activity (lots of it) and civvies from the nearby GA fields (Gamston, Netherthorpe, Sandtoft, Sherburn etc.) skirting the edge of the ATZ will require every departure to be considered seperately.

As I understand it, DSA will not have a radar head on the airfield. I believe they are using Waddingtons, which is 20 miles away. Whether this is a recipe for future joy and happiness remains to be seen.

why use waddington??? they should have there own radar head!!:rolleyes:

Why should they have their own radar head?

Lots of airports use feeds from existing installations. Why throw money around for no reason? I seem to remember EMA not having their own until recently, in fact they may not have their own now?? Radar will be staffed via LPL, with a feed from the radar ... in exactly the same way as Swanick work before you start!

It is important to note that Aviation is a business, and business in here to make money, unless of course you are state supported!

GJK22

NEMA has its own primary head-secondary is piped from claxby, I would have thought that using the primary from 20 miles away, with all the attendant loses in cover is going to be very fraught-especially in uncontrolled airspace in area of intense mil activity-something that SRG will be reluctant to approve I should think

Runway lenght and alignment issues aside, isnt there the problem of taxiway and runway loading. Are Robin hoods hard bits strong enough for a fully loaded cargo 747 ??

Fully laden Vulcans operated there no problem so I doubt PCN will be an issue. I've also seen a C5A Galaxy there mind you they spread the weight on many wheels so they can operate from unprepared strips. I believe ther was however, a problem with mining subsidence. A freind tells me they were having problems with opening the hangar doors due to this when the RAF were there.:(

Because for an airport in busy uncontrolled airspace, like DSA, it is quite* helpful to be able to see the unknown microlite that is crossing your final approach 3 miles out at 1000', quite legitimately not talking to you, when you have a 767 or suchlike plodding down your ILS. Or the Tornado closing on it from behind doing 400kt at low level, for that matter.

(*this is sarcasm)

Not quite. Swanwick rarely work traffic down to ground level, or in uncontrolled airspace. They tend to work within full radar cover.

Anyone know where the DSA secondary feed is from, out of interest? The Scampton head?

Hmm.... if they have to co-ordinate each departure that'll make a runway bias promise difficult to keep, with the potential of unnecessary delays too. Just a thought but the topography around there might assist with a remote head for primary at Waddo, its all relatively level, so terrain masking may be limited, but I'm thinking along the same lines as NJ.

This has been said before, so sorry if I step on anyones toes.

Althought the primary radar signal is being derived from Waddington, it is utilising a new gismo, (devleoped by Flight refuelling I think), that is CAA approved, and allows primary and SSR radar coverage down to 150ft.

This will give nearly as good as coverage as you would get from having your own radar head on the airfield for a lot less expense.

It's just a question of deciding if the blip not equipped with SSR crossing the centreline 2miles and 1 ft, , from the airport may, or may not, be a real aeroplane - a judgement call that we all have to do on a day to day basis.

Where's this high ground of which you speak? I thought it was as flat as a pancake around that area?

Or is it perhaps to keep the aircraft higher over Bawtry on the approach?

- Michael