Wot's goin' on with officialdom at STN
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Wot's goin' on with officialdom at STN and other UK airports
I am a UK pilot based in Germany operating for a German LCC.
In the last week two things happened which puzzle me and help to raise my blood pressure:
1) I had arrived as operating crew and left thru Enterprise house.
However the door at security remained closed until I showed
my (German) pass. Is it now normal to have to identify oneself
in order to get OUT of an airport?
2) I operated into STN, leaving the a/c there for about 8 hrs, on
the A apron, dead-heading back on a company aircraft, which
parked next to us. Thru the handling agent I thought I had
arranged a ramp transfer. BAA security arrived to check our
baggage ???????, but suddently HM Immigration intervened
and wanted us to proceed thru arrivals, get crew boarding
passes from our check-in facility in the terminal and proceed
as passengers!!!!!!!
I tried to phone the senior official but got an underling who
stated "it's the regulations and these will not be changed!"
In the end we complied, but no-one even wanted to see
our passports.
I strongly feel that we as a body of professionals should stand up
and protest to counteract the ever-increasing number of job-worths and other little h*tlers and their superfluous invented procedures.
Comments?
T
In the last week two things happened which puzzle me and help to raise my blood pressure:
1) I had arrived as operating crew and left thru Enterprise house.
However the door at security remained closed until I showed
my (German) pass. Is it now normal to have to identify oneself
in order to get OUT of an airport?
2) I operated into STN, leaving the a/c there for about 8 hrs, on
the A apron, dead-heading back on a company aircraft, which
parked next to us. Thru the handling agent I thought I had
arranged a ramp transfer. BAA security arrived to check our
baggage ???????, but suddently HM Immigration intervened
and wanted us to proceed thru arrivals, get crew boarding
passes from our check-in facility in the terminal and proceed
as passengers!!!!!!!
I tried to phone the senior official but got an underling who
stated "it's the regulations and these will not be changed!"
In the end we complied, but no-one even wanted to see
our passports.
I strongly feel that we as a body of professionals should stand up
and protest to counteract the ever-increasing number of job-worths and other little h*tlers and their superfluous invented procedures.
Comments?
T
Last edited by Ivan Taclue; 30th Jul 2003 at 23:42.
Just an SLF speaking here but Stansted security uniquely decided to introduce a self-appointed "rule" recently that pax could only have one item of hand baggage, regardless of the airline's actual baggage rules. So I had briefcase and computer, both allowed by the airline, and got turned round by security (not by airline staff)after a long queue.
Aparently this is all down to the huge queues you normally get at Stansted nowadays, which has led to many complaints, when you then find only half or three-quarters of the security points for pax are staffed. This was their fix to the problem - reduce what you are allowed to process!
No problem on the return leg, of course.
Jobsworths indeed.
Aparently this is all down to the huge queues you normally get at Stansted nowadays, which has led to many complaints, when you then find only half or three-quarters of the security points for pax are staffed. This was their fix to the problem - reduce what you are allowed to process!
No problem on the return leg, of course.
Jobsworths indeed.
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WHBM
I am sorry to see that it's not only us aircrew but our very source
of income suffering too at the hands of those nincompoops.
I now partially have to "undress" in order to satisfy those DETR or DTLR regulations, which only seem to sprout at STN.
Hence my call for action! Any support from SLF (sic) greatly welcomed.
rgds Ivan (still without a clue)
I am sorry to see that it's not only us aircrew but our very source
of income suffering too at the hands of those nincompoops.
I now partially have to "undress" in order to satisfy those DETR or DTLR regulations, which only seem to sprout at STN.
Hence my call for action! Any support from SLF (sic) greatly welcomed.
rgds Ivan (still without a clue)
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A ramp transfer would have been so much easier - no doubt the flight you were returning to Germany on went late because of the jobs worths (but it would of course be down to late crew arrival, rather than airport facilities of course).
Sadly I agree with about the BAA at STN. Too many jobsworths, not enough help. Apparently we as handling agents are no longer allowed to let cabin crew off the aircraft for a cigarette during a turnaround, because they are considered a security risk should they be allowed to mix with the passengers (because cabin crew have not been searched at STN!!!!!). But then its ok for the two to mix during the flight isnt it?
BAA staff take great delight in removing nail clippers from Cabin Crew, but seem oblivous to the fact they can then get on the aircraft and get the crash axe out etc etc
But when I reported that a small vanity case size bag had been left in a dustbin (twice) no one showed up to investigate.
Then there was the BAA security guard who I found asleep on the end of a jetway in domestics one day (but didn't have the balls to report him because he was of ethnic origin and I would no doubt have been accused of racial harrassment as it was in the middle of ramadam and he was no doubt tired from fasting.......)
The endless problems with broken jetways, marshallers who turn up after the aircraft gets on stand and has stoped out of position, PAPA boards that are out by 6 ft.
All in a normal day for us at STN I am afraid mate! Recommend put it all in your journey log and threaten to take your business to Luton if the BAA don't sort their stuff out.
Sadly I agree with about the BAA at STN. Too many jobsworths, not enough help. Apparently we as handling agents are no longer allowed to let cabin crew off the aircraft for a cigarette during a turnaround, because they are considered a security risk should they be allowed to mix with the passengers (because cabin crew have not been searched at STN!!!!!). But then its ok for the two to mix during the flight isnt it?
BAA staff take great delight in removing nail clippers from Cabin Crew, but seem oblivous to the fact they can then get on the aircraft and get the crash axe out etc etc
But when I reported that a small vanity case size bag had been left in a dustbin (twice) no one showed up to investigate.
Then there was the BAA security guard who I found asleep on the end of a jetway in domestics one day (but didn't have the balls to report him because he was of ethnic origin and I would no doubt have been accused of racial harrassment as it was in the middle of ramadam and he was no doubt tired from fasting.......)
The endless problems with broken jetways, marshallers who turn up after the aircraft gets on stand and has stoped out of position, PAPA boards that are out by 6 ft.
All in a normal day for us at STN I am afraid mate! Recommend put it all in your journey log and threaten to take your business to Luton if the BAA don't sort their stuff out.
Last edited by Hawk; 26th Aug 2003 at 03:55.
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I have worked at STN for over 4 years now as an engineer.I must say it has to be one of the most unhelpfull places i have ever worked at.I was tald as my bag went through x-ray on the way into work the other day that I was not aloud to carry metal knives and forks in my lunch box.Total stupid.I have a multi tool and by belt with two blades,which the BAA let me use and a tool box full of sharp pointy things.They are bunch of jobsworths,which you can never get to do any thing for you.Even if you are the costumer.
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Sadly STN is stiff with the mindless jobsworths that you describe, especially in security. The idiocy of checking ID on leaving airside is only one example. Recently they (at the EH post) have tried to prevent people taking cameras airside!!!! It was well over a year after Sept 11 before they reluctantly (and very quietly) admitted that we had been allowed to carry Leatherman tools etc airside for many many months. (Pilots hijacking their own aircraft by stabbing themselves in the neck, I suppose. Oh well.) It was almost as if it cost them money to backtrack on such a stupid rule. I recently positioned thru STN as pax inadvertently carrying a leatherman and sharply pointed nail scissors in my hand baggage. It was missed! So much for "security".
True story at STN some years back;
"Wossinnat box mate?"
"This van's toolkit"
"Open it"
"Can't, no key, it's not my van"
"Can't take it airside then, can you? Might be a bomb!"
"But you let it in half an hour ago, and I've only been landside 5 minutes"
"Well it's not coming in now". Clearly a master of consistency, this one.
Pauses to check IDs of people who have piled out of a minibus to troop thru his lair. They return to the bus which drives through barrier totally unchecked inside or out, driver still in his seat. Clearly a master of professionalism too.
"See your ID mate, please"
Show pilots licence - just flown in from GA airfield (ID cards unheard of) an hour previously, aircraft sitting on apron. Show aircraft. Explain function of pilot in respect to aicraft, and relationship of airport to both.
"Thassnogood mate thassnot ID" Clearly no master of his own grey matter either.
No answer to this. Have to go to ID unit to get temporary ID in order to return to my aircraft, and to return the engineers van. Pilots licence not on the list of approved documents to prove identity, though a social security card (and I'm sure my memory is not at fault) a library card was!!!!
Upon returning to Adolf in the security post the toolkit/bomb issue resurfaced. I eventually suggested, and I quote, " If I leave the bomb under your desk and pick it up on the way out it won't have gone airside, so that will be OK, wont it?" B*gger me if the twit didn't agree quite happily to this!
So when the knuckledraggers and Faschisti at STN give you gyp, remember they've had decades more practice than you, and you just won't win.
Ask a non EU national pilot employed with, say, Ryanair and who is STN based about the 3rd degree treatment immigration give him every time he positions thru as a pax. (the concept of illegal immigrants establishing a career with an accredited major EU airline as a means of illegally entering the country is apparently not a strange one to the immigration people.) Hmmm.
(Edited to remove the interference of the politically incorrect thought police)
True story at STN some years back;
"Wossinnat box mate?"
"This van's toolkit"
"Open it"
"Can't, no key, it's not my van"
"Can't take it airside then, can you? Might be a bomb!"
"But you let it in half an hour ago, and I've only been landside 5 minutes"
"Well it's not coming in now". Clearly a master of consistency, this one.
Pauses to check IDs of people who have piled out of a minibus to troop thru his lair. They return to the bus which drives through barrier totally unchecked inside or out, driver still in his seat. Clearly a master of professionalism too.
"See your ID mate, please"
Show pilots licence - just flown in from GA airfield (ID cards unheard of) an hour previously, aircraft sitting on apron. Show aircraft. Explain function of pilot in respect to aicraft, and relationship of airport to both.
"Thassnogood mate thassnot ID" Clearly no master of his own grey matter either.
No answer to this. Have to go to ID unit to get temporary ID in order to return to my aircraft, and to return the engineers van. Pilots licence not on the list of approved documents to prove identity, though a social security card (and I'm sure my memory is not at fault) a library card was!!!!
Upon returning to Adolf in the security post the toolkit/bomb issue resurfaced. I eventually suggested, and I quote, " If I leave the bomb under your desk and pick it up on the way out it won't have gone airside, so that will be OK, wont it?" B*gger me if the twit didn't agree quite happily to this!
So when the knuckledraggers and Faschisti at STN give you gyp, remember they've had decades more practice than you, and you just won't win.
Ask a non EU national pilot employed with, say, Ryanair and who is STN based about the 3rd degree treatment immigration give him every time he positions thru as a pax. (the concept of illegal immigrants establishing a career with an accredited major EU airline as a means of illegally entering the country is apparently not a strange one to the immigration people.) Hmmm.
(Edited to remove the interference of the politically incorrect thought police)
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hi timzsta, you obviously twicked who I am, but would prefer to stay incognito for the time being.
Great to see some of your stories here too. No doubt you would also benefit from a change in attitude by these characters. We can only live in hope, mate. I am preparing a letter to the Rt. Hon. John Prescott and Alistair Darling. With a bit of luck we might even get press coverage to show some of the idiotic goings-on.
skeptic:
great story too!!! I thought that you guys had it all sewn up, but how wrong can I be. I know of a Captain, recently deceased sadly, who got so infuriated that he decked one of these Neanderthalers (it was in DUB, though!). In the end he himself got the sack......
Keep it coming, lads and ladettes.
Great to see some of your stories here too. No doubt you would also benefit from a change in attitude by these characters. We can only live in hope, mate. I am preparing a letter to the Rt. Hon. John Prescott and Alistair Darling. With a bit of luck we might even get press coverage to show some of the idiotic goings-on.
skeptic:
great story too!!! I thought that you guys had it all sewn up, but how wrong can I be. I know of a Captain, recently deceased sadly, who got so infuriated that he decked one of these Neanderthalers (it was in DUB, though!). In the end he himself got the sack......
Keep it coming, lads and ladettes.
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The way that STN treats its customers these days reminds me of a hilarious scene from the Spitting Image TV sho wmany years ago.
The Tory party had been just won the 1992 election and the cabinet (portrayed by grotesque puppets) were discussing why the electorate had voted for them again, despite a raft of problems.
Eventually, they conclude that the electorate are stupid and will put up with anything; They then see a TV set and decide to throw food at it to express their contempt for the electorate.
A few years ago, STN was a good airport, with connections to places like Amsterdam and Dublin, from where you could travel on to the rest of the world. I know this, because I used it a lot.
These days, I try to avoid the place as it is just too much hassle.
The so called 'executive lounge' doesn't even have a flight monitor in it and that pretty much sums up the place from my POV.
The Tory party had been just won the 1992 election and the cabinet (portrayed by grotesque puppets) were discussing why the electorate had voted for them again, despite a raft of problems.
Eventually, they conclude that the electorate are stupid and will put up with anything; They then see a TV set and decide to throw food at it to express their contempt for the electorate.
A few years ago, STN was a good airport, with connections to places like Amsterdam and Dublin, from where you could travel on to the rest of the world. I know this, because I used it a lot.
These days, I try to avoid the place as it is just too much hassle.
The so called 'executive lounge' doesn't even have a flight monitor in it and that pretty much sums up the place from my POV.
Ivan Taclue:
There are seemingly a fair number of admittedly low-paid security staff who seem to get a bit of a kick out of giving the run around to me (in my business suit) or you (in your pilot's uniform), all the while shouting "it's for security".
The irony here, from my passenger perspective is that just down the road at London City are a set of security staff who are the exact opposite - welcoming, pleasant, efficient, no silly rules, thorough in a professional way, etc. And I bet how it is on my side is repeated on the crew side. It must all be down to local management. My hunch is also that the competent ones probably find more of what they are really looking for, too.
There are seemingly a fair number of admittedly low-paid security staff who seem to get a bit of a kick out of giving the run around to me (in my business suit) or you (in your pilot's uniform), all the while shouting "it's for security".
The irony here, from my passenger perspective is that just down the road at London City are a set of security staff who are the exact opposite - welcoming, pleasant, efficient, no silly rules, thorough in a professional way, etc. And I bet how it is on my side is repeated on the crew side. It must all be down to local management. My hunch is also that the competent ones probably find more of what they are really looking for, too.
Final 3 Greens:
I think the key is the management of the operation. There are security staff at STN that whoever runs the security operation at LCY would not give house room to.
STN more generally reminds me of a few businesses I visit, where "management" has become synonymous with financial targets, coming in under budget, etc, with little or no regard for the actual operational side.
I think the key is the management of the operation. There are security staff at STN that whoever runs the security operation at LCY would not give house room to.
STN more generally reminds me of a few businesses I visit, where "management" has become synonymous with financial targets, coming in under budget, etc, with little or no regard for the actual operational side.
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Speaking as a pilot working for an airline who until fairly recently (through my own company's misgivings) had a huge presence at STN, now just a mere office, I can agree with all of the points of view given above.
I still dead head in and out of STN weekly and am constantly amazed by the stupidity of the security team, who clearly seem to forget the reason that they are there for.
As a dead heading pilot, wearing an identifyable uniform, well known to security, holding a STN ID pass, we are STILL asked to remove our passes as we pass through security. Why, you may ask? Because we may be confused with operating crews. I ask whether they think that the general public would prefer to see a pilot, in uniform, airside with a security pass. I am told that rules are rules and the pass must be removed. I show an official company NOTAC to the effect that passes must be worn whilst on duty in uniform and that following discussion with security management it was agreed that pilots positioning through STN could wear their ID since they were on duty. Answer, the pass must be removed. In the end, I refused, walked off and nobody bothered to stop me. Jobsworths!
Shortly after September 11th, we had a person from security come down to the aircraft to tell us that she had been told that our first aid kits had scissors in them and she was to remove them. I asked her name and she wanted to know why. Because, you have just grounded this aeroplane if they are removed and I need your name for the report. Then I asked what she thought about this...wielding the fire axe? She disappeared up the airbridge never to return!
Security are concerned that crews might possibly come into contact with passengers (God forbid) and so are forbidden to enter the terminal (you can't even go for a cr*p) despite the fact that you cleared security there prior to the first flight and are merely waiting for the third sector of the day. Then the dispatcher comes on, who has mixed with incoming and outgoing passengers all day, and that is all right.
Come on STN...we all know you have been made to look stupid by irresponsible members of the press trying to frighten the general public more than they already are, by trying to get through security with a bus ticket, or sneaking a water pistol on board an aircraft, or whatever, but at least have some common sense. Clearly a pilot working for a recognisable airline should have some clout. After all, the biggest security risk is held between the pilots hands...if the pilot wants to commit an atrocity, then nothing some security guard does will prevent it!
They ought to remember that they are there to protect ME as the pilot of an aircraft, from the general public and not the other way round!
I still dead head in and out of STN weekly and am constantly amazed by the stupidity of the security team, who clearly seem to forget the reason that they are there for.
As a dead heading pilot, wearing an identifyable uniform, well known to security, holding a STN ID pass, we are STILL asked to remove our passes as we pass through security. Why, you may ask? Because we may be confused with operating crews. I ask whether they think that the general public would prefer to see a pilot, in uniform, airside with a security pass. I am told that rules are rules and the pass must be removed. I show an official company NOTAC to the effect that passes must be worn whilst on duty in uniform and that following discussion with security management it was agreed that pilots positioning through STN could wear their ID since they were on duty. Answer, the pass must be removed. In the end, I refused, walked off and nobody bothered to stop me. Jobsworths!
Shortly after September 11th, we had a person from security come down to the aircraft to tell us that she had been told that our first aid kits had scissors in them and she was to remove them. I asked her name and she wanted to know why. Because, you have just grounded this aeroplane if they are removed and I need your name for the report. Then I asked what she thought about this...wielding the fire axe? She disappeared up the airbridge never to return!
Security are concerned that crews might possibly come into contact with passengers (God forbid) and so are forbidden to enter the terminal (you can't even go for a cr*p) despite the fact that you cleared security there prior to the first flight and are merely waiting for the third sector of the day. Then the dispatcher comes on, who has mixed with incoming and outgoing passengers all day, and that is all right.
Come on STN...we all know you have been made to look stupid by irresponsible members of the press trying to frighten the general public more than they already are, by trying to get through security with a bus ticket, or sneaking a water pistol on board an aircraft, or whatever, but at least have some common sense. Clearly a pilot working for a recognisable airline should have some clout. After all, the biggest security risk is held between the pilots hands...if the pilot wants to commit an atrocity, then nothing some security guard does will prevent it!
They ought to remember that they are there to protect ME as the pilot of an aircraft, from the general public and not the other way round!
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STOP x3
Very useful posting; thanks for that. I hope that more aircrew join in to make a case to present to STN management.
At the moment all correspondents will be treated as whingers, but a concerted efforts, perhaps assisted by BALPA - IPA/IPF and some media coverage might do the trick.
rgds Ivan
Very useful posting; thanks for that. I hope that more aircrew join in to make a case to present to STN management.
At the moment all correspondents will be treated as whingers, but a concerted efforts, perhaps assisted by BALPA - IPA/IPF and some media coverage might do the trick.
rgds Ivan
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Stop Stop, great stuff, but Im a bit puzzled. Why are security asking you to remove ID tags fer chrissakes, I thought they were the Holy Grail of "security". How can anyone ask crew to remove them? You cant remove security passes from aircrew! We get disciplinary action if found without passes visible.
Now what's all this about "forbidden to enter the terminal?" Since when, and who said so? Its news to me, never heard anything resembling this before. How could "security" have an input in this? Surely they only "follow the instructions" of the Dept of Public Conveyances, Ice Cream Parlours and Huge Pensions or whatever it calls itself this week? Certainly no one in my company knows of this - I'd love to hear more of this (great potential for cage-rattling here!)
As you said, the greatest threat is between the pilot's hands. Hopefully this is not due to his despairing grasp on the scrawny neck of some mindless jobsworth in the "security" post!
Now what's all this about "forbidden to enter the terminal?" Since when, and who said so? Its news to me, never heard anything resembling this before. How could "security" have an input in this? Surely they only "follow the instructions" of the Dept of Public Conveyances, Ice Cream Parlours and Huge Pensions or whatever it calls itself this week? Certainly no one in my company knows of this - I'd love to hear more of this (great potential for cage-rattling here!)
As you said, the greatest threat is between the pilot's hands. Hopefully this is not due to his despairing grasp on the scrawny neck of some mindless jobsworth in the "security" post!
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What is just as surprising is that anyone can walk unchallenged through the "out of hours" entrance into Enterprise house. OK so it's not airside but absolutely anyone can gain access to offices/crews in the building. However you do have to show your pass to get back into the building from airside.
Let's not allow common sense to interfere with "security".
Let's not allow common sense to interfere with "security".
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Agree with all the above, trying to get landside through EH you have to show your pass, even if its a whole crew in uniform, and you passed through their, with the same staff, just a few hours earlier.
You also have to hide your pass in the terminal.
And I get searched every time I go through EH security. Why would I bother with a pair of scissors when I have an axe (and other sharp objects) on the aircraft?
As a passenger I had to give up a pair of tweezers but my razor and scissors were OK.
Getting off a Ryanair flight as a pax, positioning back after a long day at work (W pattern), I hadn't kept my boarding card tab. So they wouldn't let me landside. I had changed out of uniform but had my ID pass, which I showed security. He said if I was in uniform I could go through. I lost it a bit at this point, held the queue up, made a big fuss and suggested, did he want me to get my uniform and change into right here, just so that I could get from airside (a security area for which I had a pass) to landside? I suggested I would just turn around, go back on the apron and get on the crew bus and enter through Enterprise House. In the end he let me through!
Do these people have no training?
You also have to hide your pass in the terminal.
And I get searched every time I go through EH security. Why would I bother with a pair of scissors when I have an axe (and other sharp objects) on the aircraft?
As a passenger I had to give up a pair of tweezers but my razor and scissors were OK.
Getting off a Ryanair flight as a pax, positioning back after a long day at work (W pattern), I hadn't kept my boarding card tab. So they wouldn't let me landside. I had changed out of uniform but had my ID pass, which I showed security. He said if I was in uniform I could go through. I lost it a bit at this point, held the queue up, made a big fuss and suggested, did he want me to get my uniform and change into right here, just so that I could get from airside (a security area for which I had a pass) to landside? I suggested I would just turn around, go back on the apron and get on the crew bus and enter through Enterprise House. In the end he let me through!
Do these people have no training?
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STN - Essex, England, UK
I still remember the nonsense in STN when I walked in and out
there. That was before 11th Sept. 2001. I had some serious
discusses with HM security. Just imagine the elevation those
people got, yesterday some grilled burgers at fast food chains
and today they wear a imposant looking uniform with security
sticker on it. The education of common sense is non-existent I
assume. Presently I am happy not to go thru STN anymore.
If I read all this above my memory comes back and tells me all
the hassle we had there again with the so called security.....
NG
there. That was before 11th Sept. 2001. I had some serious
discusses with HM security. Just imagine the elevation those
people got, yesterday some grilled burgers at fast food chains
and today they wear a imposant looking uniform with security
sticker on it. The education of common sense is non-existent I
assume. Presently I am happy not to go thru STN anymore.
If I read all this above my memory comes back and tells me all
the hassle we had there again with the so called security.....
NG