EU261, what has Blocks Off time got to do with it?

[CW247]

(Pilots perspective)
I'm not getting this subject. Given ATC slot restrictions (CTOT), my company wants us to go to a remote stand as soon as possible so we can start the Blocks Off time ASAP.. Aparrently this helps avoid EU261 compensation in those tight cases. Can someone expain to me how this might be possible given that EU261 is mainly due where the problem was within the airline's control (tech, IT problems, etc).

Thanks

[FlightDetent]

Nothing sinister perhaps, part of the battle plan to observe the 3 hrs delay deadline for openingdoors
​​​​
​​​​​​. is to start moving ASAP at the departure place?

Off to legal experts, ready to be surprised.

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Presumably if you pushback at or as near to STD as possible then sit it out waiting for your CTOT it’s much easier to demonstrate that it was in fact an ATC delay? Rather than ground handling, PRM, airline operational etc

Also pending CTOT improvement, and the risk of losing your pushback crew/tug?

[go-around flap 15]

And wreaking havoc with crew hours across the summer as a 3hr sector becomes 4hrs including 1 hr sat on the taxiway.

[Crewing Gimp]

Push and park is more common practice nowadays. Slot restrictions don’t always count towards EU261 claims as usually outside company controls. It also reduces the chance of missing a slot due passengers wanting to get off or you guys realising your crew meals not right 😂

[jumpseater]

Airline marketing teams use the on time performance as a tool to show how much better they are than the opposition, so OTP has always been a key marketing tool as well as an operational efficiency analysis tool.

As BDBM has stated there’s the ‘brakes off’ element too. If you have a significant CTOT delay and can remote park, brakes off and push back is counted as your ‘departure’ time statistically. This counts for both internal airline and external (industry) OTP analytics. Therefore even if you sit for half an hour before taxi, you’ve departed ‘on schedule’. This works even if it’s a remote stand rather than terminal.
Therefore the delay can be attributed to ATC/slot rather than other operating criteria. It also saves having a push back crew held for you, and frees a terminal parking stand for another movement.

[Jonty]

One of the big issues I have found this year is stands. If everyone waited for their slot on stand there’s no stands available for anyone arriving. Several times this year I have waited over 45mins for a free stand.

[Good Business Sense]

I believe these delay costs etc are now a very significant factor for airlines when making decisions on whether to start or continue with a route - passengers don't realise that they might have won "rights" on one hand but they have also lost on the other hand in terms of lost services to their city etc - especially on 3rd level, thin routes. I also understand that the last flight, late night, get the folks home at any cost approach by airlines has also gone as it's cheaper to cancel.

[willy wombat]

Originally Posted by go-around flap 15

And wreaking havoc with crew hours across the summer as a 3hr sector becomes 4hrs including 1 hr sat on the taxiway.

don’t quite see how “push and park” affects crew duty hours as surely these start from report.

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by willy wombat

don’t quite see how “push and park” affects crew duty hours as surely these start from report.

Presumably because it affects the sign-off time and later reduces the rest from civilized towards the minimum limits.

[willy wombat]

No but what I meant was that it doesn’t make a difference whether you hold on stand or push and hold.

[Big Tudor]

Originally Posted by willy wombat

don’t quite see how “push and park” affects crew duty hours as surely these start from report.

Not duty hours, but it does count towards the 28 day and 12 month block hour totals. If you hold on stand the block hour counter doesn’t start ticking, but if you push and park it does. Do that 10 times a month and you are taking 10% off your monthly limit.

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by willy wombat

No but what I meant was that it doesn’t make a difference whether you hold on stand or push and hold.

ah, indeed.

[CW247]

I have learnt a lot from this thread! Even the best people at my outfit don't really get the ins and outs of delay management.

[Smudge's Lot]

Push and Hold allows the airline to say that the flight "departed" on time, (ieushed back from stand on time).
Crew duty hours start at report.
EU261 kicks in with doors open at destination time and then compared to original Scheduled Time of Arrival (STA)

All that push and hold does is improve "OnTime" departure statistics, nothing more, although as pointed out above, it does free up a stand for an arriving aircraft.

[SWBKCB]

It also strengthens the airlines arguement that it wasn't something they were in control of, because they pushed back on time - they did their bit, but ATC wouldn't let them go.

We used to do it many years ago in the era of regular flow control issues over Spain and France as it meant you were ready to go if an earlier slot came up - we had a few flights miss a slot change because they were sat on stand and we couldn't find a tug etc...

[go-around flap 15]

Originally Posted by Big Tudor

Not duty hours, but it does count towards the 28 day and 12 month block hour totals. If you hold on stand the block hour counter doesn’t start ticking, but if you push and park it does. Do that 10 times a month and you are taking 10% off your monthly limit.

Exactly this, I meant to say 'block hours' rather than 'duty hours' in my original post. Agreed from a duty perspective no different but I've at least 10 hours or so this summer in the logbook from sitting on the taxiway, a mixture of push and park and push and start, taxi to remote location and shut down for an hour or so. All counts legally as block hours.