Flybe-V1
Agreed, as Skipness correctly explains, British Airways Express was a completely separate entity to Cityflyer Express who are wholly owned by BA and therefore not a franchise but a sub division, our franchise airline CEO pointed out at the time that the regional product was becoming very difficult for the <70 seat market in the mid 90s as the public were by then able to fly 2hr sectors to the Med for forty quid and this was becoming the norm, while we were still trying to sell flights in the £300 price range for sub 2hr sectors and at the same time, bizarrely, facing competition from BA, the Franchise owner.
The LCCs have now defined the going rate pricewise for short haul and the views of our (ex BA) CEO at the time were that a niche operation, point to point, in the regional market can only survive if there is no competition on a particular route and can set the fares accordingly, BA clearly weren't prepared to compete in that market and sold the remaining franchise, BA Connect, to Flybe.
BA Cityflyer operates mainly out of LCY and thus ticks the no competition box, while the question remains, on which routes will Flybe be able to make money?
The LCCs have now defined the going rate pricewise for short haul and the views of our (ex BA) CEO at the time were that a niche operation, point to point, in the regional market can only survive if there is no competition on a particular route and can set the fares accordingly, BA clearly weren't prepared to compete in that market and sold the remaining franchise, BA Connect, to Flybe.
BA Cityflyer operates mainly out of LCY and thus ticks the no competition box, while the question remains, on which routes will Flybe be able to make money?
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Actually, I don't fully agree with all the above. 1/ for the sake of getting it right, CityFlyer Express was originally completely privately owned and operated through the 90s as a BA franchisee. It was only sold to BA around 2001 (I am hazy on the dates as the sale was referred to the (then called) MMC and took a considerable time to go through. 2/ CityFlyer demonstrated that it was possible for a regional to go head to head with a loco. the best example being Gatwick Dublin where it operated toe to toe with Ryanair and due to a combination of good scheduling and the power of the BA brand and the Executive Club did very well.
Thank you Jamie 2009 for trying to bring something positive to this debate and for showing some support for the people who lost their jobs through no fault of their own.
There was more to Flybe than just UK domestic flying and what has saddened me since Covid struck is the way in which the likes of Air France and KLM UK managed to continue to make inroads into the UK market from their own end. KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.
Without getting into the profitability of each route argument, let's remember that as well as the French regional holiday destinations, at the time of going out of business, Flybe operated from UK regional airports to HAJ, TXL, GRQ, AMS, DUS, LUX, STR, MXP, CDG, LYS, CFR, RNS, EGC, DUB. Wouldn't it be nice if a true UK airline could be supported and helped to at least offer some resistance against the Euro giants.
There was more to Flybe than just UK domestic flying and what has saddened me since Covid struck is the way in which the likes of Air France and KLM UK managed to continue to make inroads into the UK market from their own end. KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.
Without getting into the profitability of each route argument, let's remember that as well as the French regional holiday destinations, at the time of going out of business, Flybe operated from UK regional airports to HAJ, TXL, GRQ, AMS, DUS, LUX, STR, MXP, CDG, LYS, CFR, RNS, EGC, DUB. Wouldn't it be nice if a true UK airline could be supported and helped to at least offer some resistance against the Euro giants.
It would be lovely if regional networks could be revived... but it seems the general public just don't want to pay enough for these flights to be sufficiently profitable, especially when there is no long haul connection involved
There is a good argument for public subsidy to connect offshore island to a medium sized airport on a mainland... but difficult to argue for a subsidy of Birmingham-Hannover
There is a good argument for public subsidy to connect offshore island to a medium sized airport on a mainland... but difficult to argue for a subsidy of Birmingham-Hannover
KLM seem to be operating into most UK regional airports and have been able to continue to do so and protect their rights on these routes thanks to government bailouts or Government ownership (AF) whilst UK gov just left things to rot. I really hope that the new Flybe manages to take the fight back to these near Europe competitors and finds a way to take on their higher cost base fuel guzzling old jets and mainline contract crews with a much leaner high frequency model.
a true UK airline
Fair point SWBKCB but I think I am just very frustrated that one way or another, UK aviation is slowly being driven into the ground. I just think there is a space for Flybe to push back into the market without necessarily hurting the likes of Loganair. There has been much focus on domestic flying recently and the problems Flybe 2 will have in a smaller market up against Easy, Ryan and Wizz but maybe there is a chance that the new management team are able to form new relationships codeshares ACMI deals etc and create themselves a new niche market.
They have been sitting on a lot of historical route data and probably know what will work assuming they can get the right deals. I am just disappointed that there is so much negativity when no one really knows what the plan is. Even if Flybe ended up with some of its old codeshare arrangements on some of its former routes, at least a few more jobs would be re-created at this end of the line and that has to be a good thing.
They have been sitting on a lot of historical route data and probably know what will work assuming they can get the right deals. I am just disappointed that there is so much negativity when no one really knows what the plan is. Even if Flybe ended up with some of its old codeshare arrangements on some of its former routes, at least a few more jobs would be re-created at this end of the line and that has to be a good thing.
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Codeshares and ACMI deals are still difficult to make work. Look at Cityjet. Barely turning a profit and they have a large deal with SAS and had Brussels Airlines.
Just in recent times others like Nordica, Cimber, Great Dane, Jettime and Stobart who all followed a similar path are gone. Flybe1 also tried it and made a mess of it with Flybe Nordic.
Equally short haul codeshares often mean the short flight carrier gets barely anything once it is divided between the operating carriers.
The old data is exactly that. Old. The market is completely different nearly two years on. Plenty of companies are now putting it into their rules that domestic flying is banned, the busier routes have more competition now and brexit will inevitably have an effect on numbers going to second homes in France etc.
There are some gaps in the market. If they can control their costs operating from UK regions to German hubs and sharing with Lufthansa might help but BMI Regional did that and are not here now.
UK-Scandinavia still has some gaps, especially with Norwegian reduced. The Q400 could help to connect smaller Norwegian cities and Denmark.
It would be nice to see them do well but the odds are overwhelmingly against them. They need to find a niche. Scotland/highlands is already well served and Flybe lost that battle last time. They could take on the Channel Islands. Aurigny loses money constantly. Blue Islands has struggled in the past. And it would return to their roots. On the other hand it’s still a small market.
Northern Ireland could be another target. Belfast was apparently a strong base for them before. But IAG have been busy there with BACF operating services.
The South west is another spot but Eastern got the PSO for Newquay and the other routes are small.
The only other option I can see is to go big and take on the other carriers. Someone will lose and we’ll find out who has the deepest pockets or the richest sugar daddy.
Just in recent times others like Nordica, Cimber, Great Dane, Jettime and Stobart who all followed a similar path are gone. Flybe1 also tried it and made a mess of it with Flybe Nordic.
Equally short haul codeshares often mean the short flight carrier gets barely anything once it is divided between the operating carriers.
The old data is exactly that. Old. The market is completely different nearly two years on. Plenty of companies are now putting it into their rules that domestic flying is banned, the busier routes have more competition now and brexit will inevitably have an effect on numbers going to second homes in France etc.
There are some gaps in the market. If they can control their costs operating from UK regions to German hubs and sharing with Lufthansa might help but BMI Regional did that and are not here now.
UK-Scandinavia still has some gaps, especially with Norwegian reduced. The Q400 could help to connect smaller Norwegian cities and Denmark.
It would be nice to see them do well but the odds are overwhelmingly against them. They need to find a niche. Scotland/highlands is already well served and Flybe lost that battle last time. They could take on the Channel Islands. Aurigny loses money constantly. Blue Islands has struggled in the past. And it would return to their roots. On the other hand it’s still a small market.
Northern Ireland could be another target. Belfast was apparently a strong base for them before. But IAG have been busy there with BACF operating services.
The South west is another spot but Eastern got the PSO for Newquay and the other routes are small.
The only other option I can see is to go big and take on the other carriers. Someone will lose and we’ll find out who has the deepest pockets or the richest sugar daddy.
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https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update...0895062282240/
I don't think anyone knows what they've got planned so we will just have to wait and see - can't be long now.
I don't think anyone knows what they've got planned so we will just have to wait and see - can't be long now.
At the risk of sounding petty, I don't think that E&Y update is right when they proclaim Flybe will be the first ever UK airline rescued from insolvency. European went through a CVA and I'm sure there were several airline runs through insolvency in the mid/late 1980s including Air Ecosse and BAF. It subsequently ended in tears in all three cases at a later date, but I'm absolutely sure that statement is not correct.
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Local Variation
I’m going on what me and friends have from our workplaces. My organisation doesn’t allow domestic flights for any corporate travel. My wife’s company has the same restrictions.
A Wikipedia article also states that the BBC bans staff flying if the journey can be done in under 3 hours by train. It also gives the GLA and Environment Agency as examples. Fintech company Klarna also bans flying for staff on work travel. It’s fast spreading in corporations to improve their eco credentials.
I’m going on what me and friends have from our workplaces. My organisation doesn’t allow domestic flights for any corporate travel. My wife’s company has the same restrictions.
A Wikipedia article also states that the BBC bans staff flying if the journey can be done in under 3 hours by train. It also gives the GLA and Environment Agency as examples. Fintech company Klarna also bans flying for staff on work travel. It’s fast spreading in corporations to improve their eco credentials.
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BA318
Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland cannot be done in under 3 hours on train.
London to Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Southampton to Manchester or Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Newquay to any domestic Flybe destination cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Not sure why the "3 hours by train" argument is even being brought up. That's also dependant on times and availability of train tickets, which are often more expensive than domestic air fares, and with many train operators running reduced services.
Birmingham and Manchester to Scotland cannot be done in under 3 hours on train.
London to Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Southampton to Manchester or Scotland or vice versa cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Newquay to any domestic Flybe destination cannot be done in under 3 hours on a train.
Not sure why the "3 hours by train" argument is even being brought up. That's also dependant on times and availability of train tickets, which are often more expensive than domestic air fares, and with many train operators running reduced services.
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Thats just one example. My point was the market is changing. More and more organisations are stopping their staff from flying and domestic flights are the first target. The cost often doesn’t matter. Just like companies which ban business or first class tickets even when they can sometimes be cheaper than last minute economy tickets.
UK Plc companies are all keen to attract investors to buy their shares. The big buyers of shares are pension funds and life insurers, who now all tend to make some sort of reference to ESG criteria - ie Environmental, Social, Governance. If your company is deemed to be bad, many pension funds simply won't touch you. A company can improve its ESG score (and yes, there are consultants giving out ESG scores) by ticking green boxes. Allowing flights under 3 hours may be more effective for specific employees... but it messes up the company's ESG rating to the detriment of pension fund interest. Unless the firm is deemed exceptionally ESG evil (eg tobacco or weapons companies), the CEO of a plc will care about improving the ESG rating to keep the share price high... and never mind a few employees being slightly less productive. I know the BBC is not on the stock exchange... but there are enough people watching the BBC very carefully, waiting to make a fuss if it does something deemed bad.
Not great news if you are an ultra-short-haul airline pilot competing against road and/or rail... but that's the way things are now
Not great news if you are an ultra-short-haul airline pilot competing against road and/or rail... but that's the way things are now
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France is adopting a no domestic flying under 3hr approach, difference being the vast size of the country and you can quite easily travel from Paris to Marseille on TGV in around 3 hrs, unlike the U.K. where it takes 6 long hours on Cross Country from SOU-MAN. The French have the rail infrastructure to make it work!
Last edited by stewyb; 15th Nov 2021 at 19:17.
Funnily enough most railway networks radiate from the capital, so comparing with a cross country route is a bit apples and pears.
However, my organisation banned domestic flights except to NI a couple of years ago, and we used to be regular users of the BE Newcastle-Exeter route. No way I'm doing that on the train. Slow, noisy, uncomfortable, crowded
However, my organisation banned domestic flights except to NI a couple of years ago, and we used to be regular users of the BE Newcastle-Exeter route. No way I'm doing that on the train. Slow, noisy, uncomfortable, crowded
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I’m not sure it takes 6 hours SOU-MAN by train, more like 4.5 hours but even compared to France this is a long time for the distance involved I agree. The other examples given above regarding MAN -Scotland journey times are in the region of 3 hr 15 mins plus so not too great, given the rolling stock is now mostly new intercity units much more comfortable compared with an old tatty dash 8, and city to city connections compared with Flybe.
As other contributors have pointed out, many Flybe routes have been replaced by other operators such as EZY on many former MAN routes, I understand other operators such as Blue islands, Loganair and Aurigny have also taken over BE routes too so I wouldn’t expect them to give up without a fight.
As other contributors have pointed out, many Flybe routes have been replaced by other operators such as EZY on many former MAN routes, I understand other operators such as Blue islands, Loganair and Aurigny have also taken over BE routes too so I wouldn’t expect them to give up without a fight.
The reality is that the real cost to the economny may be having someone senior unavailable to work as they're changing trains more than once or twice to see a client and on a billable accounts that's dead time! So the cheaper and more efficient option is flying, and we all know it happens. Especially in competitive and fast moving businesses, the notion that substantial deals and new business are clinched over Zoom is a media creation. The same pension funds and eco credentialists which davidjohnson6 speaks are the same Davos set who arrived at COP26 in Gulfstreams and Global Expresses. Finance teams always frowned on business expenses per se, flying is just the most virtue signalling example. In the real world, no CEO wants his staff trapped on the Hell that is Mainline Rail for too much of their time. They really, really don't. We're not France, we don't have TGV from Scotland to Southampton or Cardiff.