737 Max - Europe S20
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737 Max - Europe S20
We are all aware of talk about when the 737 Max might (or might not) return to service. During S19 a number of European short haul leisure focussed airlines have needed to lease in aircraft from small ACMI operators
At what point will the European airlines with currently grounded 737 Max aircraft likely need to sign leases to ensure availability of aircraft to taken punters on holiday to the beach in S20 ?
Can they defer a decision until Xmas ? Or even later ?
Note - I'm not asking "when will the 737 Max return to service" - I don't believe anyone can given a definite answer on this despite what Boeing may indicate. My question is about when decisions need to be made about leasing in alternate aircraft for S20 in the event that the 737 Max remains grounded beyond Easter 2020
At what point will the European airlines with currently grounded 737 Max aircraft likely need to sign leases to ensure availability of aircraft to taken punters on holiday to the beach in S20 ?
Can they defer a decision until Xmas ? Or even later ?
Note - I'm not asking "when will the 737 Max return to service" - I don't believe anyone can given a definite answer on this despite what Boeing may indicate. My question is about when decisions need to be made about leasing in alternate aircraft for S20 in the event that the 737 Max remains grounded beyond Easter 2020
I would imagine TUI have been looking at this for some time now as the S20 IT flying program has to be put to bed by now - So these decisions have to be ''do we bite the bullet now or not....''
The MAX ACMI debacle has cost TUI £600m so far....ouch
ACMI airlines like Titan have expanded their fleet largely for Jet2's work for next year.
TUI's new holiday jet fleet was pivotal on 757 and maybe 767 retirements which should have been completed by now -
TUI have now to decide whether again to still hang on to as many 757's as they can - No doubt expensive MX and C checks are due on the 757's - do we pay for those or do we wait?
Also TUI have some 757's due to be sold on for freighter conversions so they may have to let those go contractually - infact one went this week.
As for Ryanair - I think they are in a different position as they do not sell package holidays but their route expansions must be on hold....
Enter Air and Smartwings also have grounded Max but they are not as badly affected as TUI
The MAX ACMI debacle has cost TUI £600m so far....ouch
ACMI airlines like Titan have expanded their fleet largely for Jet2's work for next year.
TUI's new holiday jet fleet was pivotal on 757 and maybe 767 retirements which should have been completed by now -
TUI have now to decide whether again to still hang on to as many 757's as they can - No doubt expensive MX and C checks are due on the 757's - do we pay for those or do we wait?
Also TUI have some 757's due to be sold on for freighter conversions so they may have to let those go contractually - infact one went this week.
As for Ryanair - I think they are in a different position as they do not sell package holidays but their route expansions must be on hold....
Enter Air and Smartwings also have grounded Max but they are not as badly affected as TUI
Seems from Jethros, the TUI UK 11 x 757's due to go after or during this winter,
TUI have now extended their leases again to cover the 9 MAX groundings and TCK closure
1 x 757 has gone back to lessors this week for conversion to freighter
the 2 x 767's remain in the fleet
TUI have now extended their leases again to cover the 9 MAX groundings and TCK closure
1 x 757 has gone back to lessors this week for conversion to freighter
the 2 x 767's remain in the fleet
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Seems from Jethros, the TUI UK 11 x 757's due to go after or during this winter,
TUI have now extended their leases again to cover the 9 MAX groundings and TCK closure
1 x 757 has gone back to lessors this week for conversion to freighter
the 2 x 767's remain in the fleet
TUI have now extended their leases again to cover the 9 MAX groundings and TCK closure
1 x 757 has gone back to lessors this week for conversion to freighter
the 2 x 767's remain in the fleet
YH22 many thanks for the updates 
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Good thread topic. As stated it is far from clear when the MAX will re-enter service. I wouldn't expect to see it back flying on airline service until S2021.
When it does make a reappearance it will be headlines, so Boeing and airline operators will need to have a compelling communications message to the travelling public, I can just imagine the tabloid press with sensational headlines about safety etc...
When it does make a reappearance it will be headlines, so Boeing and airline operators will need to have a compelling communications message to the travelling public, I can just imagine the tabloid press with sensational headlines about safety etc...
Frankly Dave I too do not have that much optimism that we will see the MAX fly again in Europe, or the UK in time for S20 season (ie May 1st onwards) so S21 could well be the case....
We still seem nowhere near any fix from the manufacturer that the worldwide Certification Agencies can look at to seek approval.
They will also likely wait for the official ET crash report to be published, then we have the issue of pilot training/re-training etc.
What do you think?
Best R.
We still seem nowhere near any fix from the manufacturer that the worldwide Certification Agencies can look at to seek approval.
They will also likely wait for the official ET crash report to be published, then we have the issue of pilot training/re-training etc.
What do you think?
Best R.
If I was a betting man, my money would be on Q1, or possibly Q2, of next year.
Obviously that would mean that any use of the Max in S20 (starting end of March) would be on an ad-hoc basis, since the schedules are already in place, but many airlines will otherwise be desperately short of capacity for the Summer season.
Obviously that would mean that any use of the Max in S20 (starting end of March) would be on an ad-hoc basis, since the schedules are already in place, but many airlines will otherwise be desperately short of capacity for the Summer season.
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 28th Oct 2019 at 10:27.
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Yes DaveReidUK, that's my opinion S21..
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
Last edited by EI-BUD; 28th Oct 2019 at 18:55.
add in the training
Yes DaveReidUK, that's my opinion S20..
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
None of this is going to be expeditious.
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Type Rating for B737 MAX8
It is not impossible that in the future the Certification Agencies (particularly those outside the USA) may require a different Type Rating for the B737 MAX8 compared with the B737-800.
Boeings attempts to avoid a separate type rating for the B737 MAX8 seems to me to have been the root cause of many of the problems with the B737 MAX8.
Boeings attempts to avoid a separate type rating for the B737 MAX8 seems to me to have been the root cause of many of the problems with the B737 MAX8.
Yes DaveReidUK, that's my opinion S20..
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
Besides any reentry into service will have to be on a phased basis airlines will struggle to take backlogs of planes at once... I certainly wouldn't be comfortable in any schedules planning department building a schedule for any sooner given the lack of substitute aircraft in the market...
But you said categorically that you don't expect to see the Max flying in airline service until Summer 2021, whereas I fully expect the aircraft to start operating for airlines within a few days of the grounding being lifted (on an ad-hoc basis, obviously), and I'll be amazed if that moment is still more than a year away.
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Maybe I misread your post. Yes, I agree that airlines plan their schedules a year or more in advance, and planners can't afford to make overoptimistic assumptions about when the grounding will end.
But you said categorically that you don't expect to see the Max flying in airline service until Summer 2021, whereas I fully expect the aircraft to start operating for airlines within a few days of the grounding being lifted (on an ad-hoc basis, obviously), and I'll be amazed if that moment is still more than a year away.
But you said categorically that you don't expect to see the Max flying in airline service until Summer 2021, whereas I fully expect the aircraft to start operating for airlines within a few days of the grounding being lifted (on an ad-hoc basis, obviously), and I'll be amazed if that moment is still more than a year away.
I meant to type S21 in my last post, I think S20 is far to close to overcome all the issues....
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Fir those unaware, Boeing announced production of the 737 Max will be suspended in January. Large production lines take time to restart after suspension, so this is clearly not going to be just a few days.
Has the decision now been made for airlines operating within Europe for S20 as to what to do ? Should one now expect the likes of TUI and others to be trying to get hold of every 150-200 seat aircraft they can find ?
Has the decision now been made for airlines operating within Europe for S20 as to what to do ? Should one now expect the likes of TUI and others to be trying to get hold of every 150-200 seat aircraft they can find ?